Servers as a karma ladder?

YAHG · 2018-05-28 08:34:32

I think 2HOL doesn't have murdering

breezeknight · 2018-05-28 09:10:04

YAHG wrote:

I think 2HOL doesn't have murdering

there is an even more simple solution

i just don't play this "game" anymore

Roolstar · 2018-05-28 21:35:08

@jason I know you know how big of a change a "karma" system is to OHOL; that's why this thread is so long and old.

And you are right, it is a very big change, and griefers will not be the concern if some possible consequences of this decision come to be.

I do not like the Karma system for a very deep reason, but I don't think you like it more than I do.

So I say good luck on your decision

sc0rp · 2018-05-30 01:03:33

Any news on that? Greifing is so OP. One person with few click can destroy everything that dozens of others build. And you can do squat about it. So what that killer is slow? All childbearing women are already gone. You may quit as well. Or all seeds are gone. Or bear come to hug all your family members. Or... And there aren't any consequences for griefer. Next game he gets carte blanche.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-05-30 01:03:58)

Eclipciz · 2018-05-30 01:10:33

jasonrohrer wrote:

Trusted, the point is that a village needs to get good at detecting these intentionally backwards players and dealing with them. The only way to deal with them is to kill them. So killing them has to mean something.
If a village is ignoring the griefer operating right under their noses, there's nothing I can do for them. You're right that there's no way to auto-detect that.
All I can do is give them a poweful tool that they can use if they are paying attention.
Right now, the tool is just not powerful enough.

Someone has suggested a "dance on their grave" mechanic of some kind. Where a village, after killing a griefer, can curse the grave spot, which prevents the griefer from being born in that area for some period of time. The more people that participate in the curse, the stronger it becomes. Maybe it takes three people to ward the person away for 30 minutes, and each additional person who joins the dogpile will add an additional 30 minutes. A whole village could ward someone away for half a day or more.
That idea is becoming more appealing to me now, and I can't currently see any downsides to it. It will take some coding to implement, so I'm still thinking about it.

However, the karmic ladder adds an interesting metaphysical structure to the game beyond just dealing with griefers. It has a bunch of downsides, though (splitting up the player base, giving new players a worse experience, etc.)

How do you suppose a group of players intentionally troll by doing this to everybody?

sc0rp · 2018-05-30 01:28:57

Eclipciz wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
However, the karmic ladder adds an interesting metaphysical structure to the game beyond just dealing with griefers. It has a bunch of downsides, though (splitting up the player base, giving new players a worse experience, etc.)
How do you suppose a group of players intentionally troll by doing this to everybody?

Give people moderation points, so they can effectively curse only once or twice a day. All further are no-ops.

Or give ability to curse and bless. So if others see something fishy, they can undo the curse. There are way more good players than griefers, so it may work out.

Or give more weight to your curse/bless depending on your karma and/or age (more weight to what village elders say).

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-05-30 01:35:37)

sc0rp · 2018-05-30 01:53:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

Someone has suggested a "dance on their grave" mechanic of some kind. Where a village, after killing a griefer, can curse the grave spot, which prevents the griefer from being born in that area for some period of time. The more people that participate in the curse, the stronger it becomes. Maybe it takes three people to ward the person away for 30 minutes, and each additional person who joins the dogpile will add an additional 30 minutes. A whole village could ward someone away for half a day or more.

That only moves the problem to the other villages - it doesn't impact griefer at all. And village is probably anyway gone at this point (e.g. all childbearing women killed by griefer). What I would like to see is some mechanism that makes it so, that good players are more likely born into a game with other good players and griefers are more likely born into games with other griefers. Who knows, maybe griefers will have lots of fun this way. There are PvP servers in MMOs and some people like it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

However, the karmic ladder adds an interesting metaphysical structure to the game beyond just dealing with griefers. It has a bunch of downsides, though (splitting up the player base, giving new players a worse experience, etc.)

How exactly you think this will give worse experience for new players? I'm kind of new player (playing 1.5 week or so). And rampant griefing takes no 1 top spot among things that give me bad experience. I really cannot come with anything else with such a big impact. Other things are just petty annoyances compared to that.

Glassius · 2018-05-30 09:56:29

sc0rp wrote:

What I would like to see is some mechanism that makes it so, that good players are more likely born into a game with other good players and griefers are more likely born into games with other griefers. Who knows, maybe griefers will have lots of fun this way. There are PvP servers in MMOs and some people like it.

This is a terrible idea for drama reason. The whole point of griefing is to make constant war between griefers and constructive players. This is challenge that both sides would enjoy if there are equal chances. But for now, they are not. Simply killing griefer does not punish him enough. It doesn't matter how determined is the whole village, because determined griefer will always eradicate it eventually.

The only way to counter it is to punish griefer after death and there are two steps necessary here: detection and punishment.

1. Earlier this thread most people agreed system detection is bad. It will be affecting good players and griefers will be developing new ways to pass it. So, it would be players who detect griefer and decide IF to punish him after death. It would be curse system.
2. How punishment works: most mechanics proposed here are system punishment: server ban, Eve banishment. It is separating griefers from constructive players. No drama, less challenge.

My proposition is to add mark (like Cain's mark, maybe evil eyebrow? Dr Evil scar?) to cursed players and leave spawn mechanism untouched. This way punishment will be also dealt by players. And it adds drama! Possible situations:

1. The last fertile woman in town, just before menopause. And she births marked girl. Would village raise it despite previous sins? Or will they decide to kill her, along with the hope for survival?
2. Flourishing village, marked boy is born. Mother decides to keep it. Will village allow her? Will they banish mother and boy? Or just kill both.

Pros:
1. Control in player's hands
2. More drama: revenges, forgives, atonements, baby killing.
3. Rather simpler than server ladder
4. Allows spawn mechanics to be untouched, so can be updated any other way in future
5. Server choosing untouched.

Cons:
1. The concept of hell and limbo is replaced by the concept of karma. Some prefer afterlife solution.
2. Less control in Jason's hand.

Last edited by Glassius (2018-05-30 10:00:10)

TrustyWay · 2018-05-30 11:37:13

This thread is supposed to closed, lineage ban has been put instead. I dunno why you dont read why it isn't possible.

1. You can't put good or bad behaviour over an action. How can you say killing is bad if it killed a griefer ? How can you say doing compost is good if the dude uses all the food for that ?

2. Not enough players to separate them. Game drops at 30 players sometimes. If we already has 3 ladders or heaven hell and normal, they wont be enough players to substain all servers.

3. The game isn't about making everyone an hard worker but making them live life. Good or bad or wierd. Somebody having a roleplay life is supposed to go down because he played the game , instead of farming a job that gives the chance to go up in ladder and keep farming to not drop, pretty boring.

4. Deal with problems, griefing is undetectable, learn how to catch griefers, I never had a griefering problem since a month. Griefers are bad players who are inefficients, are they supposed to go to hell ? I rather not

Intangir · 2018-05-30 13:22:56

philosophically, logically, murderers aren't being murdered, they are being killed

murder is the act of aggression, an initiation (or escalation) of violent force to take the life of another

killing a murderer to prevent further death protects life, is not an act of initiatory violence, and is not murder

i know comic books and idiotic hero movies and TV can't seem to grasp that hilariously simple distinction but it is important to recognize and label properly

sc0rp · 2018-05-30 20:10:11

Glassius wrote:

My proposition is to add mark (like Cain's mark, maybe evil eyebrow? Dr Evil scar?) to cursed players and leave spawn mechanism untouched. This way punishment will be also dealt by players. And it adds drama! Possible situations:
1. The last fertile woman in town, just before menopause. And she births marked girl. Would village raise it despite previous sins? Or will they decide to kill her, along with the hope for survival?
2. Flourishing village, marked boy is born. Mother decides to keep it. Will village allow her? Will they banish mother and boy? Or just kill both.
Pros:
1. Control in player's hands
2. More drama: revenges, forgives, atonements, baby killing.
3. Rather simpler than server ladder
4. Allows spawn mechanics to be untouched, so can be updated any other way in future
5. Server choosing untouched.
Cons:
1. The concept of hell and limbo is replaced by the concept of karma. Some prefer afterlife solution.
2. Less control in Jason's hand.

I've thought about this, but what you are proposing is just more complicated version of game-wide ban. Personally I'll always choose short term pain (this village will die) for long term gain (griefers driven away from the game). So it will be no brainer, just another annoyance you have to deal in the game. Spawned as Eve and you cannot find sensible place where you can set up settlement? That's annoying. Abandoned immediately as Eve's kid? That's annoying. Griefer born as last and the only girl? Feed him to the bear. That's just annoying.

sc0rp · 2018-05-30 20:38:09

TrustyWay wrote:

This thread is supposed to closed, lineage ban has been put instead.

It has not been effective in detering griefing. And it also ensures that I mostly spawn as Eve or abandoned Eve's kid.

TrustyWay wrote:

1. You can't put good or bad behaviour over an action. How can you say killing is bad if it killed a griefer ? How can you say doing compost is good if the dude uses all the food for that ?

That's stawman argument. I never proposed automatic behaviour. People can curse/bless and they have to use their best jugement.

TrustyWay wrote:

2. Not enough players to separate them. Game drops at 30 players sometimes. If we already has 3 ladders or heaven hell and normal, they wont be enough players to substain all servers.

I pose that griefing is major cause of this. I have only anecdotal evidence, but there are multiple posts in this forum that people quit over griefing. And I'm personally on the verge of doing the same. And this is really sad, because I like the game, and there is plenty of things for me to try there. But as Eve I cannot do it. Due to lineage ban I cannot be born into my own settlement. An when maybe once or twice per day I'm born into town, there are more chances than not, that there is already griefer there killing people left and right.

TrustyWay wrote:

3. The game isn't about making everyone an hard worker but making them live life. Good or bad or wierd. Somebody having a roleplay life is supposed to go down because he played the game , instead of farming a job that gives the chance to go up in ladder and keep farming to not drop, pretty boring.

That's another strawman. I like when people role play. It's a lot of fun. I'm not gonna curse people that are making me smile. Karma is intended for sorting out intentional greifing. Having fun running with the knife and killing random people? Cool. Play with your ilk.

TrustyWay wrote:

4. Deal with problems, griefing is undetectable, learn how to catch griefers, I never had a griefering problem since a month.

That's different experience than mine. I see greifing every day, multiple times.

TrustyWay wrote:

Griefers are bad players who are inefficients, are they supposed to go to hell ? I rather not

I never said that.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-05-30 20:39:25)

hihibanana · 2018-05-30 20:38:17

I love the idea of reincarnation having an impact on the game. When you are born to a skin tone, you'll have a higher chance of being a specific character. With more characters, I think this would be really cool. You could somehow identify specific accounts.

I think reincarnation should be rewarded with doing any action whatsoever. Even if it is griefing, I don't think people grief for very long. It's human nature to be bored and test the limits of the game; seeing if you can murder an entire village; it's a slowly expanding game, and people will get bored.

Perhaps just adding more social systems? To make people not bored, and instead of murdering eachother, they can just be dramatic and political. Instead of messing up the farm, mess up people's social status and make people hate eachother. The social aspect seems like it would help a lot and be fun. How did primitive people socialize? I'm sure it wasn't all just survival.

sc0rp · 2018-05-30 20:52:12

hihibanana wrote:

Even if it is griefing, I don't think people grief for very long. It's human nature to be bored and test the limits of the game; seeing if you can murder an entire village; it's a slowly expanding game, and people will get bored.

I fully agree that people grief sporadically. The problem is that with current game balance griefing is immensly powerfull. So it's not like you are griefing and then one other person had bad experience. It's more like one griefer = twenty unhappy people. One or two greifers on the server and it looks like greifing is everywhere.

YAHG · 2018-05-30 20:58:00

It seems to go through cycles. A week ago griefers just got put down. Then we rebuild. When the city is strong it can recover from bad play.

hihibanana · 2018-05-30 21:07:19

sc0rp wrote:

The problem is that with current game balance griefing is immensly powerfull. So it's not like you are griefing and then one other person had bad experience. It's more like one griefer = twenty unhappy people. One or two greifers on the server and it looks like greifing is everywhere.

I can definitely see that. But I think that's what makes the game fun. Things like that can happen in real life, but the difference is that this is a game, where people can test the limits and be as obnoxious as possible, or stick with the system and do everything correctly (as much as possible). It is, in general, more free.

In a game where you can die by pretty much anything, having a good experience is something you have to earn. I think griefing and ruining the experience for others should be expected, and actually enhances the experience.

Last edited by hihibanana (2018-05-30 21:07:46)

TrustyWay · 2018-05-31 01:19:09

What you might misundrstood, sc0rp, is that the game, even us, cannot makes the different between action while reading the input done, if it is good or bad because it depends of the situation. It's just of letters and numbers. As said before : Is feeding sheep with all the last remaining food good or bad ? Is killing somebody cutting trees good or bad, etc...

sc0rp · 2018-05-31 01:49:00

TrustyWay wrote:

What you might misundrstood, sc0rp, is that the game, even us, cannot makes the different between action while reading the input done, if it is good or bad because it depends of the situation. It's just of letters and numbers. As said before : Is feeding sheep with all the last remaining food good or bad ? Is killing somebody cutting trees good or bad, etc...

Well, I repeat. I never proposed automatic behaviour. As to the people not being right all the time? True. But IRL, even if we cannot catch and sentence every murderer or thief, and sometimes someone innocent is punished, we sill have law and courts and jails. To deter others from doing that.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-05-31 01:49:49)

breezeknight · 2018-06-01 07:10:23

@jasonrohrer

there is a traditional RL karma belief

people committing crimes are believed to be born in the next life as non human

we have bears, wolves, snakes, pinguins, sheep, seals & rabbits already in game

how about the inclusion of the traditional karma into the gameplay ?
every player who kills will be reborn the next time as an animal either near an already populated by other players area or other players being spawned nearby afterwards
that animal life will either end after one hour or by being killed by the humans
one could also either disable the suicide option for that life or not

by the inclusion of more options to animals & more animals in general this wouldn't be even that of a punishment but more of an alternative gameplay

additional could be a marking system included, a player will be spawned as an animal next time if marked by three different players
this could develop into an anti griefers tool, at least i hope so

-

that's just a suggestion about the negative consequences of being a murderer & killer
i am still actually more interested in the positive consequences, the reward options for playing OHOL in a constructive way
one has to encourage & reward the positivity

-

@all
you all can vote here for or against this suggestion
https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … an_animal/

Last edited by breezeknight (2018-06-01 07:13:22)

sc0rp · 2018-06-02 05:18:06

Just for reference, I've written more fleshed out proposal for karma system here:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … p=2#p16279

breezeknight · 2018-06-02 22:31:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

One question remains about a lineage ban for everyone (where you can only be part of a given family once): will the lack of new blood doom a thriving village and prevent longer-term group projects? How likely is a village to simply "run out of babies" because they run out of new players to participate in their family line?

I just ran some stats, and daily unique players for the past 3 days (Sunday, Monday, Tuesday) are:
1044
906
889
Considering two days together, Monday and Tuesday, there were 1280 unique players over those two days. Thus, there is churn of 300-400 players each day.
If a village has 20 people in it which need to be replaced every hour, then it needs at least 20 fresh players born to it every hour to keep going. If there are 900 players to go through, the village can survive 45 hours before running out of people. Given that this is close to the all time record for a family line to survive, this seems pretty good. Add to that the churn of 300+ new players each day, and at the end of 45 hours, they should be have about 600 new people available, letting them go another 30 hours, at which point there will be 300 new people available, taking them another 15 hours, for a grand total of 90 hours. These are all back-of-the-napkin calculations.
And all this assumes that they don't ever go on a quest to recruit a new family line to their village (ring the bell, or whatever), which of course would let them extend their village as many times as they want.
Sounds pretty good.
And maybe there could be a glacial 24-hour cooldown on this effect, which is too long to wait out with an "I'll come back later" attitude, but would still allow you to "make the rounds" tomorrow and revisit villages you were once part of long ago.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Lots of good points here.
The thing about needing to let babies die to avoid overpopulation is true, so aren't you "wasting" babies if there's a lineage ban? Well, with this change, the influx of babies to your village would change too, because the same people wouldn't be getting born to you over and over. I.e., way less "baby spam" in general. Especially later in the life of your village, a baby being born might be a special thing that you're waiting for.
I am worried that this would make long-term civilization much harder than it already is... that's not the point of this change, so I'm trying to avoid that.
I thought that I maybe did the math wrong for maintaining a pop of 20 and how many new people you need per hour. But I'm pretty sure it's right. If you want to maintain exactly 20 people, there will be 20 people dying every hour, which means you need exactly 20 babies born during that hour to replace them. When grandpa dies, a new baby is born. So you cycle through 20 new people per hour to maintain your population.
Everyone wants to play in the big city, sure. And that means that people suicide to escape from primitive life, which means that no other cities develop. No one has to help build other cities, if the big city is always available through baby suicide. Why do so many fledgling camps die instead of growing? It's impossible to get something off the ground if your babies keep killing themselves.
The idea here is not that everyone will be stuck in a primitive life forever, but instead that multiple cities will be growing in parallel, all at different stages of development. The very best players will be working in all the cities, over time, instead of all focusing on the top city only.
Forking is a problem.... I do want people to be able to walk out and start a new village. I'll think about that more. Could be based on location instead of family line. You simply can't be born too close to where you were born before.

I think I'm going to use the "boiling a frog" approach here, and start by testing out a small lineage cool-down. Even a few hours would work wonders to stop repeat griefing of the same village and make baby suicide spam less effective. Also, I'll have it scale with population, so this will have no effect on low pop servers, and also won't be a great burden during slow times late at night. For the time being, coming back tomorrow will mean you get to live in the same villages again.
Anyway, if it works well, the cooldown can grow over time as people get used to it.

FeignedSanity and kubassa, stop fighting please.

those are the relevant quotes about lineage ban

for me it has nothing to do with what bothers me in OHOL

for me those are some mathematical gymnastics, which might or might not have some positive effects on the distribution of players throughout the maps or mostly "the" map on server 1, since that's where most players are most of the time, by far & where they probably are building most of the biggest towns
that's also where oc most of the murders take place
but it doesn't mean at all that murder doesn't take place in small settlements, beginner settlements or is not performed by Eves
it doesn't mean that the helplessness of a victim cannot be experienced everywhere, throughout the whole game randomly, now probably even much "better" than before the lineage ban

the idea of karma or karma ladder was originally i suppose about consequences of actions
negative consequences for killers & griefers & positive consequences for constructive players
lineage ban is oc way simpler to include into the game than any karma system
but has nothing to do with consequences, it's just a dispersion of all players, though i doubt it that it's even working since most players are on server 1, more or less all the time, it's at best a dispersion of players on server 1

Heisergroup · 2018-06-03 08:41:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

Being born back at some point in the future can amplify the meaning, though... like being born as the grandchild of your granddaughter.

Perhaps the player can only be born into the same lineage four generations after them, or great great grandchildren. This could definitely prevent greifers from baby suiciding to get back to the same village, while still giving you a chance to potentially be born into your same village long after everyone you've known is dead, which can really give a gratifying feeling of progress on where you've gotten or a feeling of despair at seeing your village fall into ruins. One issue with this is that after quite a few generations the family tree can become muddled to the point of relatives generations below you being the same age as you, allowing for a potential bypass to the generational barrier. This could possibly be fine as societies at that level should have some measures in place to deal with greifers, but it ruins amazement of being born into the same society. A wait of about 40 minutes could instead be implemented which should achieve the same result but eliminate the issue of say generation 142 being the same age as members of generation 154, and being born as a child of both.

sc0rp · 2018-06-03 10:28:16

Heisergroup wrote:

Perhaps the player can only be born into the same lineage four generations after them, [...]

It's already done like this - ban lasts for 3 hours or so.

One Hour One Life Forums

#126 2018-05-28 08:34:32

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#127 2018-05-28 09:10:04

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#128 2018-05-28 21:35:08

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#129 2018-05-30 01:03:33

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#130 2018-05-30 01:10:33

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#131 2018-05-30 01:28:57

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#132 2018-05-30 01:53:21

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#133 2018-05-30 09:56:29

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#134 2018-05-30 11:37:13

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#135 2018-05-30 13:22:56

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#136 2018-05-30 20:10:11

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#137 2018-05-30 20:38:09

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#138 2018-05-30 20:38:17

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#139 2018-05-30 20:52:12

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#140 2018-05-30 20:58:00

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#141 2018-05-30 21:07:19

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#142 2018-05-31 01:19:09

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#143 2018-05-31 01:49:00

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#144 2018-06-01 07:10:23

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#145 2018-06-02 05:18:06

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#146 2018-06-02 22:31:09

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#147 2018-06-03 08:41:23

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

#148 2018-06-03 10:28:16

Re: Servers as a karma ladder?

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