Check if these numbers make sense

jasonrohrer · 2018-05-30 21:05:42

Just committed a new design for the water system, which will go live later this week.

All water sources refill very slowly (one unit every 30 minutes), but dry sources aren't fatal. Ponds contain 20 water. Shallow wells contain 80 water but must be built on a dry pond. Deep wells contain 200 water in the form of 20 buckets of water, with 10 units per bucket, but they require a bucket to fetch water from them. Each bucket can be used to fill smaller water containers 10 times, and cisterns hold 9 buckets of water. Buckets can also go in carts now, so a cart can carry 40 water.

I'm mostly concerned about the 30 minute refill spacing being too fast, but maybe not... if you have 10 ponds around you, that's 20 water per lifetime (not to mention the 200 water that starts in the ponds).

The idea here is to get away from refill rate as the main thing that higher tech improves and move over to capacity increases. Thus, the higher-tech water sources are always better than the lower tech ones.

Did anyone ever calculate the maximum food you can produce from one unit of water, with the optimal farm/livestock/pie setup?

To avoid the potential for more "don't do that" aspects that might waste water accidentally, I'm going to make it so that a deep well can only be built on a dry shallow well.

YAHG · 2018-05-30 21:48:18

jasonrohrer wrote:

To avoid the potential for more "don't do that" aspects that might waste water accidentally, I'm going to make it so that a deep well can only be built on a dry shallow well.

This last part is just gonna end up trolling people, there is no where to put the water.

Atm best food is composting mutton pies out.
You get 4 pies at 4 bites a piece.

Cost is 1 water for wheat, 2 for berries and 2 carrots ( 2/5 * 1/7) ~ 3.05 water for 4 mutton pies soil not included
4*4*13= 224 hunger for 3.05 water
or theoretical max of 73.5 hunger per water input, less if you wanted to go tilless..

Also that is the max afiak and people will be wasting as mutton pies are in units of 13 which is higher than a decent proportion of your life's maximum hunger capacity. If using mutton pies I think that getting ~25% efficiency is reasonable to expect of people for 18 hunger per water.

I think it is fair to expect people to be naked as thread is two soil for each one atm..
Half a compost output which is NOT 4 soil raw as at least one always goes to wheat, tillless is 1 for wheat 2 berry bowls with the two carrots.

High end (no "free" growth of berry bushes soil included):

1+2+2/5*1/7 soil for 4 or 3.05 for 4 or .95 soil for 3.05 water..

This gives us a cost of 2* 3.05/.95 + 3 or 9.42 water per thread at the high end.. That would be 4.7 pond hours per thread and that has to go against item decay of 5.5 hours per item IIR or 2.5 for backpacks.

Low end (all berries only cost water):

1+2/5*1/7 soil or 1.05 for 4 or 2.95 soil for 3.05 water.

This gives us a cost of 2 * 3.05/2.95 + 3 or 4.06 water per thread at the low end. That is ~2 pond hours per thread.
IIR Morti did the math out at ~5-10 Sec per hunger naked or 6-12 hunger per minute person. Let us assume 12.
At 12 hunger per minute person and 18 hunger per water (at 25% people will not be able to max that shit out) we have .6~ water per person minute.

This is 60*.6 or 3.6 Water per person hour

This makes each water source:

2/3.6 or .55 People or 1.8 water sources per player... if we do NOT include the cost of soil.
Soil cost of mutton cycle is 1 for water cost of 3.05/.95 or 3.2 to 3.05/2.95 or 1.03 water per cycle.

My brain is starting to turn to mush at this point.. but the numbers look pretty shitty to me..

What is the point of this change, is this making it more fun or is it just making it harder?

Edit: Math is not good enough.. There are water fraction costs for all the tools and everything to work out, I think I am still lowballing with my estimates and am forgetting water costs here and there. Regardless my estimate still seem to be best case, which paint a bleak picture.

Last edited by YAHG (2018-05-30 21:52:06)

MidgetMaker · 2018-05-30 22:03:19

maybe don't require wells to be build on ponds but just in the swamp itself?

JonySky · 2018-05-30 22:50:16

Totally in agreement with MidgetMaker, first try to build the wells in the swamp area, if it does not work, leave it alone in the wells.

sc0rp · 2018-05-30 22:53:04

This change will also make it necessary to build farm on the swamps. So you will have naked ppl running in the cold. They will run through the food four times faster, which is deadly, especially for kids.

If you place farm in more optimal place kids won't be able to help you either - most will starve out running long distance to the wells, as it frequently happens in Eve settlements.

hihibanana · 2018-05-30 23:00:28

I think this is a beautiful idea. This also leaves room for better water extraction technologies

Irrigation soon?

Mr.XIX · 2018-05-30 23:10:44

hihibanana wrote:

I think this is a beautiful idea. This also leaves room for better water extraction technologies
Irrigation soon?

^This. The wells we have now don't have a real downside.
With the placement-restriction, the difficulties of carrying it around in buckets, leaves room for better tools to be added to the game.

FounderOne · 2018-05-31 00:58:28

YAHG wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
To avoid the potential for more "don't do that" aspects that might waste water accidentally, I'm going to make it so that a deep well can only be built on a dry shallow well.
This last part is just gonna end up trolling people, there is no where to put the water.
Atm best food is composting mutton pies out.
You get 4 pies at 4 bites a piece.
Cost is 1 water for wheat, 2 for berries and 2 carrots ( 2/5 * 1/7) ~ 3.05 water for 4 mutton pies soil not included
4*4*13= 224 hunger for 3.05 water
or theoretical max of 73.5 hunger per water input, less if you wanted to go tilless..
Also that is the max afiak and people will be wasting as mutton pies are in units of 13 which is higher than a decent proportion of your life's maximum hunger capacity. If using mutton pies I think that getting ~25% efficiency is reasonable to expect of people for 18 hunger per water.
I think it is fair to expect people to be naked as thread is two soil for each one atm..
Half a compost output which is NOT 4 soil raw as at least one always goes to wheat, tillless is 1 for wheat 2 berry bowls with the two carrots.
High end (no "free" growth of berry bushes soil included):
1+2+2/5*1/7 soil for 4 or 3.05 for 4 or .95 soil for 3.05 water..
This gives us a cost of 2* 3.05/.95 + 3 or 9.42 water per thread at the high end.. That would be 4.7 pond hours per thread and that has to go against item decay of 5.5 hours per item IIR or 2.5 for backpacks.
Low end (all berries only cost water):
1+2/5*1/7 soil or 1.05 for 4 or 2.95 soil for 3.05 water.
This gives us a cost of 2 * 3.05/2.95 + 3 or 4.06 water per thread at the low end. That is ~2 pond hours per thread.
IIR Morti did the math out at ~5-10 Sec per hunger naked or 6-12 hunger per minute person. Let us assume 12.
At 12 hunger per minute person and 18 hunger per water (at 25% people will not be able to max that shit out) we have .6~ water per person minute.
This is 60*.6 or 3.6 Water per person hour
This makes each water source:
2/3.6 or .55 People or 1.8 water sources per player... if we do NOT include the cost of soil.
Soil cost of mutton cycle is 1 for water cost of 3.05/.95 or 3.2 to 3.05/2.95 or 1.03 water per cycle.
My brain is starting to turn to mush at this point.. but the numbers look pretty shitty to me..
What is the point of this change, is this making it more fun or is it just making it harder?
Edit: Math is not good enough.. There are water fraction costs for all the tools and everything to work out, I think I am still lowballing with my estimates and am forgetting water costs here and there. Regardless my estimate still seem to be best case, which paint a bleak picture.

Well this is pretty tricky.

Actually you need to assume that for one bowl of berrys you need to plant (3/5/whatever) berry bushes since if only one berry is missing the whole bush is ruined for harvesting a bowl. If you watch berry farms, even hugh farms dont provide that much berry bowl since a lot of people eat from the bushes.

So lets asssume you need to plant 3 berry bushes to get one bowl of berrys. That means for mutton pie and compost you would need 6 berry bushes. Well you wont water all six in the same rythem. So you would need maybe per harvest a total of 4 water to get your two bowls of berrys.
Additonaly you have some spare berrys that gives you some more nutrition maybe like 50 nutrition per harvest.

So you need for the sheep one carrot, you need for compost one carrot. So you got 3 carrots left, but assuming you need a seed for the carrots you can ignore the 3 carrots as additional nutrition. So for the carrots you need 1 water.

For the wheat you need one water.

And for compost you got the berrys, carrots and wheat already above so just 1 water is missing.
For compost almost 50 or 75% of it is needed for seed, berry and wheat production. (Compensate bad watering, making a basket out of wheat, .......)

Then you got the dough also 1 water.

So you would need round about 8 water more or less to make four mutton pies(13x4x4=208), 1-2 extra soil and 40 berry nutriton value)

So you got maybe an output of 31 nutrition per water per harvest/cooking.

Since pies are not eaten well you maybe get down to 25 nutrition per water per harvest/cooking.

So lets say you need 450 nutritions in a whole life for one person. Thats round about 18 water for one person just mutton pie + berrys and some extra soil.

I dont know its late here maybe I got a mistake there? Correct me please! But I think the water regen is way to slow that way.

Sure there will be transportable water now. So you can transport more water in shorter time, so you can take further trips. But I think to get a big city like those now running wont be possible with just 10 ponds you would need way more then that with a desert and lots of rocks near bye. Also like someone else said before, kids will more likely starve since the farm is not in a warm spot.

Maybe tweaking around with the berry bushes and compost could help. So there are 7 berrys and with 5 or more you can make a bowl of berrys. Or you get 5 soil for compost instead of four.

Idk its so late. I will go sleep now and read tomorrow what I wrote here. I hope it makes sence lol

Sleeymoon · 2018-05-31 01:00:49

I have mixed feeling about this.
I agree that the refill rate of this week's iteration of deep wells is OP.
A 30 minute refill time isn't too bad if you can build as many as you want wherever you want but requiring them to be built only on ponds seems too restrictive.
Wells are meant to free us from being tied to naturally occurring water sources. This change will tie us even tighter. Also, the availability of ponds varies widely from place to place which will put an even greater burden on Eve's to find an ideal starting place.
I get that ponds and shallow wells are only meant to be temporary steps on the tech ladder but the top tier, which is currently deep wells, should be more generous until the next tier is implemented. I see a lot of successful settlements hitting the 200 water limit and then dying out.
Even thinking of pegging the regeneration rate to the maximum efficiency setup seems dangerous. Forcing players into a complex calculation (see YAHG's post) of exactly how many plots need to be devoted to which crop just to survive is a terrible idea. There should be more flexibility. Planting one too many rows of carrots, or one too many rows of berries shouldn't doom a civilization.
I need more information to decide whether I like buckets or not. Do buckets require 10 water to fill or can you collect partial buckets of water? Do they work on other water sources? What happens if you try to fill a container without enough capacity to hold the whole contents of a bucket?

sc0rp · 2018-05-31 01:30:13

Sleeymoon wrote:

I get that ponds and shallow wells are only meant to be temporary steps on the tech ladder but the top tier, which is currently deep wells, should be more generous until the next tier is implemented.

+1

Nerfing something before giving access to next tier of tech seems like bad idea for me too.

Lily · 2018-05-31 02:28:00

I think a half an hour fill time is okay. It actually feels way too slow, which makes me think it is probably okay since you want to add more pressure to people. It definitely isn't going to be too easy. I actually like this change overall, since it means you can build away from the swamp later on. Early on you absolutely have to be near the swamp and the water. However, later on you can build a city any where and just build a few cisterns.

A cistern sounds perfectly fine as your main water source within the town itself, if you are bringing carts full of buckets from a deep well it will only take a few trips per life time. There is no way to do this within the first generation if you have to drain the shallow well dry before upgrading it though. So farms will still have to start near the water at the beginning.

Portager · 2018-05-31 02:41:44

This is a good idea that I support...but I just don't think the timing is right. At the moment, finding a good starting camp is hard enough with the recent changes to the resource system, this would make it even harder. New players are getting left behind, they need time to catch up, and they can't easily learn with all of these challenges being mounted on the backs of older players.

In the long run, it makes sense, but not at this moment.

Anshin · 2018-05-31 04:08:03

Ponds refilling over time = good, realistic water cycle.

Building wells on ponds = bad, doesn't make any sense, the water table is everywhere. The whole point of wells is to build away from ponds.

Rather than nerfing water, make well building more realistic. Require digging a hole first for shallow wells. An auger for deep wells. Add some sort of irrigation, bamboo pipes or something.

afloatingstone · 2018-05-31 04:14:32

Sleeymoon wrote:

I have mixed feeling about this.
I agree that the refill rate of this week's iteration of deep wells is OP.
A 30 minute refill time isn't too bad if you can build as many as you want wherever you want but requiring them to be built only on ponds seems too restrictive.
Wells are meant to free us from being tied to naturally occurring water sources. This change will tie us even tighter. Also, the availability of ponds varies widely from place to place which will put an even greater burden on Eve's to find an ideal starting place.
I get that ponds and shallow wells are only meant to be temporary steps on the tech ladder but the top tier, which is currently deep wells, should be more generous until the next tier is implemented. I see a lot of successful settlements hitting the 200 water limit and then dying out.
Even thinking of pegging the regeneration rate to the maximum efficiency setup seems dangerous. Forcing players into a complex calculation (see YAHG's post) of exactly how many plots need to be devoted to which crop just to survive is a terrible idea. There should be more flexibility. Planting one too many rows of carrots, or one too many rows of berries shouldn't doom a civilization.
I need more information to decide whether I like buckets or not. Do buckets require 10 water to fill or can you collect partial buckets of water? Do they work on other water sources? What happens if you try to fill a container without enough capacity to hold the whole contents of a bucket?

This. Since milkweed can no longer be farmed, mass transportation of water (both buckets and carts requiring rope) seems unreasonable.

gbear14275 · 2018-05-31 04:25:31

If you charge on ahead and make wells expire permanently please put some warning graphics in there to give folks an idea of permanent state. Like at 50 uses left on deep wells make it visibly start to break down so folks know that the well is nearing its end of life. And make it collapse at the end of the 200 (maybe let us harvest parts back out).

I just don't want to spawn into a village with absolutely no clue on the lifetime of our water sources left.

Lily · 2018-05-31 04:30:10

afloatingstone wrote:

This. Since milkweed can no longer be farmed, mass transportation of water (both buckets and carts requiring rope) seems unreasonable.

You can still farm milkweed, it is just crazy expensive. Four soil to make a rope is nuts.

YAHG · 2018-05-31 04:33:01

Lily wrote:

I think a half an hour fill time is okay. It actually feels way too slow, which makes me think it is probably okay since you want to add more pressure to people. It definitely isn't going to be too easy. I actually like this change overall, since it means you can build away from the swamp later on. Early on you absolutely have to be near the swamp and the water. However, later on you can build a city any where and just build a few cisterns.
A cistern sounds perfectly fine as your main water source within the town itself, if you are bringing carts full of buckets from a deep well it will only take a few trips per life time. There is no way to do this within the first generation if you have to drain the shallow well dry before upgrading it though. So farms will still have to start near the water at the beginning.

The cistern will always be heretical if it costs the same amount stones as a well.. Plaster is completely
useless as if color dye. It it s a waste of effort if it costs the same as a basic well in stones..

Cistern is trash... It has to be cheaper than a well to not just be a bad play.

Lily · 2018-05-31 04:39:43

YAHG wrote:

The cistern will always be heretical if it costs the same amount stones as a well.. Plaster is completely
useless as if color dye. It it s a waste of effort if it costs the same as a basic well in stones..
Cistern is trash... It has to be cheaper than a well to not just be a bad play.

Yeah but if they change it so wells have to go on ponds and a cistern can go any where, that changes the entire equation. If you want to farm some where that isn't a swamp, then you have to build one.

sc0rp · 2018-05-31 04:43:09

Lily wrote:

afloatingstone wrote:
This. Since milkweed can no longer be farmed, mass transportation of water (both buckets and carts requiring rope) seems unreasonable.
You can still farm milkweed, it is just crazy expensive. Four soil to make a rope is nuts.

Can you really afford that though? You need to combat decay all the time. Backpack is luxury item already. Haven't seen full set of clothes in long time.

We're already down from 68 generations last week to 18 today:

This Week's Long Lines:
Usher 34 years old Generation: 68 Died 6 days ago
Ama 60 years old Generation: 67 Died 6 days ago
Unnamed 52 years old Generation: 67 Died 6 days ago
Luna 48 years old Generation: 67 Died 6 days ago
Rex 28 years old Generation: 67 Died 6 days ago

Today's Long Lines:
Horizon 1 year old Generation: 18 Died 23 hours ago
Horizon 0 years old Generation: 18 Died 23 hours ago
Horizon 5 years old Generation: 18 Died 23 hours ago
Horizon 9 years old Generation: 18 Died 23 hours ago
Askari 44 years old Generation: 17 Died 23 hours ago

Do we really need more nerfs? Decay+milkweed already killed every single town.

Lily · 2018-05-31 04:49:28

Well wool clothing doesn't take milkweed, so there is hope in that regard. I do agree that paying two soil for a some pants, or a hat is pretty crazy. Which now that I mention it, it is odd there are no wool pants, are we doom to have no pants forever now? I think backpacks are still worth it though. A backpack is probably worth it no matter how expensive it is to make.

sc0rp · 2018-05-31 04:59:49

Lily wrote:

Well wool clothing doesn't take milkweed, so there is hope in that regard.

I think they don't deteriorate either. Don't worry, it'll nerfed soon. It cannot stay like this.

Lily wrote:

I think backpacks are still worth it though. A backpack is probably worth it no matter how expensive it is to make.

I really like the way they decay now. Your grandma gives you precious backpack. Then after two minutes "pufff" and half of your items are gone. Then after a short while another "pufff" and all your items are gone. A really convenient way of getting rid of important stuff. Is is a bug or a feature?

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-05-31 05:04:20)

Lily · 2018-05-31 05:07:01

Backpacks should decay in 5 hours, like all the fur clothing and stuff does. Currently it decays in only 2 hours for some reason. It is how Jason wanted the game though, so it isn't a bug.

sc0rp · 2018-05-31 05:10:29

Lily wrote:

Backpacks should decay in 5 hours, like all the fur clothing and stuff does. Currently it decays in only 2 hours for some reason. It is how Jason wanted the game though, so it isn't a bug.

Well, I'm not talking about how long they last. I'm talking that they suddenly destroy items you put in them.

Lily · 2018-05-31 05:13:19

sc0rp wrote:

Well, I'm not talking about how long they last. I'm talking that they suddenly destroy items you put in them.

They are not supposed to destroy the items, just throw them on the ground. If they actually get destroyed, then I think that is a bug.

pein · 2018-05-31 06:44:29

haha sound like how i wanted, just simplified

water is a resource this way, just like real life, cities spawn next to water source but industrial cities make it a commodity easy to acces

current meta is to get to shovel and you can be as far as you want from swamp, also cisterns were only good because they were refillable, wells were not, now cistern had no advantage, now wells are not placeable and cisterns will be then is whole new meta, also the increased storage makes water runs better, but the milkweed is very scarce so buckets and carts gonna be a problem

i dont want any run where i dont have a pack, even if im naked, i hide furs, i go snare, i hide thread, i take one from a noob, i kill a spoiled kid who doesnt even know the basics but its in full clothing, also wool packs should be a thing

just the little privacy it gives, stash the shears so you get the fleece for sheep you fed or hide a knife to defend, hide a key you got,store stuff for later, or just have food backup

unfortunately carts are stolen too often(i wanna lock them, mb i build garage xD), i make one, someone steals it, then young noobs claim the cart cause they used 5 minutes ago, a horse cart full of water sustains a few cisterns and water runs and not that bad late game

cisterns should still store more than wells or cost less, at least on higher upgrade

i like the limits on it, but it should be balanced with spawn rates, if we calculate with carrots, around 100 per person, it needs 20 water a lifetime, for 20 tiles and 3 seed rows 3x7 based on 5 carrot seeding, thats 23 water per person which is kinda 1 pond more or less, sheep dung is serious limitation for calculating with pies, and still a lot of waste product because player skill and grain usage
one lifetime is enough to craft a shovel, still people gonna move to other ponds i guess, not upgrade one

the bad part is more emphasis on luck and dgs biome, and less on terraforming, i would like some options, like you could melt ice to get water, you could press cactus fruit, you could have baobab trees on savannah containing water, different process, same result, maybe less efficiency but different playstyle

now you can choose to lose less food but run further for water, which is still better because two exploits, or eat more but have easy water access which is worse cause soil runs and carrot watering timers.

can be good to exploit and move, or procrastinate and stay, but it works other way around, lazy and stupid people stay and force out the good ones by using everything inefficiently and selfish way

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-05-30 21:05:42

Check if these numbers make sense

#2 2018-05-30 21:48:18

Re: Check if these numbers make sense

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