Check if these numbers make sense

sc0rp · 2018-05-31 07:26:24

pein wrote:

i like the limits on it, but it should be balanced with spawn rates, if we calculate with carrots, around 100 per person, it needs 20 water a lifetime, for 20 tiles and 3 seed rows 3x7 based on 5 carrot seeding, thats 23 water per person which is kinda 1 pond more or less, sheep dung is serious limitation for calculating with pies, and still a lot of waste product because player skill and grain usage

So what does it mean in practice? That the largest towns will be able to sustain 10-15 people. And a newb or two eating carrots and doing nothing else will collapse the whole civilization?

Glassius · 2018-05-31 07:38:07

Jason, you are rethinking the problems for which a proposition was given a long time ago. And it would not solve current problems, only create new.

Swamp are naturally created in places where waterproof levels of ground don't allow water to go deeper into ground. Therefore, swamps are naturally a terrible place for wells, because you are building it in ground, which does not allow deep water to flow. The whole idea of well is to reach water-flowing levels. The current design, where deep well is refilling faster than shallow and never goes completely dry makes a great sense.
ChomikImage.aspx?e=DW-7sBOOu04_ZTH2Ixq_6rlwy30pQlzfByAzEolStvCmnXlioJkdcLJaf-3gvLOVKW_UyEl7tTRcT8H8JwP-sdw6GL5Ytwk-oYFFQaocHls&pv=2 .
Also, allowing wells to be built only on ponds, restricts them from building in bioms they seems to be naturally suitable, like deserts and savannas. Totally unimmersive and not realistic.

The current problem is well spam. It is possible, because objects do not interact with each other in the area. Why build cistern, when a well is even cheaper to make and has greater use? The future irrigation system, with canals, pipes or aqueducts will require objects to interact with each other.

Which is leading us back to the point: we need an area effects. I gave a proposition how to do it within current game engine with phantoms, but it seemed too complicated. I rethinked the idea, simplified it and I am making animation to show how it works. But it suppose, I will not make it in time before your well nerf will come to life. I will just put some pictures there instead, in hopes people will understand.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1808

No matter the refill rate, the simplest solution to water for players is to build another well nearby. You are just making it more tedious. Simulating area effects gives possibilities:
1. Restricts from well spam. You need to build next well far away and carry water back.
2. Gives cisterns use, as u actually need to carry water from far away.
3. Allows for canals, aqueducts and water pipes in future.

Last edited by Glassius (2018-05-31 08:32:30)

Lily · 2018-05-31 08:08:48

I actually mentioned this a while back when carrots were getting nerfed hard, that people should probably start moving to full time ranching for food. Composting changes with dung made that more true. Now I think that is truer than ever, you have to rush sheep as soon as possible so you can compost. You need to compost like crazy, that is the only way you can get all this soil you need for everything.

On the bright side, in the mad dash to compost like crazy, you can get a ton of sheep meat.

pein · 2018-05-31 08:29:25

sc0rp wrote:

pein wrote:
i like the limits on it, but it should be balanced with spawn rates, if we calculate with carrots, around 100 per person, it needs 20 water a lifetime, for 20 tiles and 3 seed rows 3x7 based on 5 carrot seeding, thats 23 water per person which is kinda 1 pond more or less, sheep dung is serious limitation for calculating with pies, and still a lot of waste product because player skill and grain usage
So what does it mean in practice? That the largest towns will be able to sustain 10-15 people. And a newb or two eating carrots and doing nothing else will collapse the whole civilization?

in practice this is a short term buff, long term nerf. you needed 1.5 ponds, kinda. so if you got lot of unskilled players, you drain the map and you need to move, if someone is skilled, leads you to next level, third step is when water is not a problem but you got no use of it with current recipes
changes the strategy a bit, you needed 2 close and a few pretty close ponds, now you need a lot of ponds no matter if the 2nd is bit more distant if you got a huge swamp next to a desert patch is better than before

its player skill based, you got two options, you commit to work hard to do the upgrades, then get the ropes needed to have more water again
or move out to new ponds

i already tried to take a basket with pouch needle and bowl, make my own camp and populate then move back when first dies out, then back when other dies out, gives you the natural milkweed, small family, with a bit faster civ starting, then full bushes when old city dies out, no one distracts you getting a pen running, reborning there is quit common, if both still runs, that can be good too

Morti · 2018-05-31 09:34:57

Jason, I'm okay with whatever you want to test out.
Feel happy to experiment with us and try new things.

As long as you're learning, I'm okay if you make good mistakes.

Just you know it's going to frustrate people who, say, joined after watching someone play in a three month old video. Only to learn a mechanic they figured they had a grasp on no longer exists. Some people like consistency, getting a grasp on things; you know, like the Ikea nesting instinct, while some people are okay with the paper Street Soap Company, FC and Project Mayhem.

You're at the wheel. Hands tight or not, I'm enjoying the ride.

jasonrohrer · 2018-05-31 15:32:57

Just really quick, because I need to get back to work.

Buckets can only be filled at deep well or cistern. Buckets move water 10 at a time. A bucket can be used to fill small containers 10 times, during which it becomes a partial bucket that can't be dumped back in the cistern. So, no partial bucket math is being done. No code was harmed during the making of this update.

The point of this is to make all current water tech matter. I will be introducing higher water tech in the future, and I want that to matter to. If you already have some deep wells, and I introduce a pump well, you should REALLY want to build the pump well for some reason.

And for the time being, I'm trying to do this without area effects (like water tables) or network effects (like pipelines), because my infinite-world game engine doesn't support that, I'm not quite sure how to simulate flow correctly and efficiently given that the connected areas might be unbounded in size. and I estimate that coding this up would take about 2-3 weeks of full time coding/testing work (with no content or other updates during that time). It was also never part of the plan, and judged to be out-of-scope long ago (I decided NOT to do any kind of "redstone wire" type thing in this game about 2 years ago). Getting it right is way harder than it sounds (see The Castle Doctrine, which got it right on a 32x32 grid, and it was a nightmare of quirks, edge cases, and unexpected behavior...)

I'm also trying to develop the general model for "why higher tech version of X is better than the older, lower-tech version". Higher tech requires more resources to build (including time). I have to figure out a way to make it worthwhile.

Also, the milkweed issue has nothing to do with this, because soil is being overhauled along with this change to essentially make all crops equal in terms of soil consumption, but make soil more widely available.

Will add a visual indicator when the well is near empty.

Alleria · 2018-05-31 15:56:18

For the record, Discorders will always be salty, but the best players in the game generally agree that this new meta sounds alright (we'll only really know once we actually play it).

Last edited by Alleria (2018-05-31 15:57:00)

thewhiterabbit21 · 2018-05-31 18:14:49

I have tried calculating it, but most people just ruin all the plans anyway. It takes so long to explain and justify - then the player dies or someone else waters the crops. Since there is limited time to communicate and play, only those who are pro players are really going to understand and/or care.

The best solution I have found, for now, is to tell everyone to only take water from the cisterns. Then those people who are experienced are well diggers and cistern filler-uppers.

As for game/coding wise - in the real world, any water we drink or use to water on crops is never lost or destroyed. It will eventually become water again. Although, fresh water is not necessarily a guarantee. Something like this could be developed for the game... any water we use on crops should come back as water in a pond or well within a set amount of time. And it should be a nearby water source, possibly within 5-10 tiles? I would think that every water used for a farm should come back within 60 minutes. And it seems like this might be the simplest solution for the water equation...

I also think it could be interesting if water evaporated from a bowl if carried more than a certain number of tiles. 10 tiles in a desert and 20 in a savanna, for example. And then that water returned to a nearby water source within 60 minutes of evaporating.

Lily · 2018-05-31 18:38:28

If there are changes to make soil more available, then I think that helps a lot. If there is more soil around, or it is easier to get, people will grow more stuff which uses more water. Which I think it is a good thing to have the focus more on water scarcity than soil scarcity. If you start to run out of water then you have to prioritize what to grow and what not to grow or perhaps go looking for more water. Since water does come back though, you have a decline in civilization and things become a lot harder. In the case you run out of soil, it is an instant, all or nothing collapse. You run out of soil, since it doesn't come back, that is it, your town is done. Nearly all food and tools requires it so your pretty much wiped out.

So yeah, I like putting the constraints on water more than soil. If your town of 20 people hits water issues, maybe you lose half the population, but you can potentially come back from it if you manage the crisis. The city may collapse, but there is hope. If your have a town of 20 runs out of soil, even briefly, you pretty much have to abandon the city and find a new area, there is no hope.

InSpace · 2018-05-31 18:53:09

Ooh, well changes coming soon

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTP7f5n6oYbhgOw_ZBJzu-t89KRMj7vjzQjUICpJT03ozWZ8OXt

sc0rp · 2018-05-31 20:35:28

pein wrote:

third step is when water is not a problem but you got no use of it with current recipes

Could you elaborate on that? What "third step" you are talking about? I honestly don't get it. All water sources refil at the same rate, but they need way more advanced tools to use. As I see it, the state is very very fragile. You fuck up your composting a bit, run out of milkweed, cannot replace decaying buckets/carts and then you cannot use any nearby water sources at all (all converted to deep wells). No way to recover.

Kinrany · 2018-05-31 23:15:12

All water sources refill very slowly (one unit every 30 minutes), but dry sources aren't fatal. Ponds contain 20 water. Shallow wells contain 80 water but must be built on a dry pond. Deep wells contain 200 water in the form of 20 buckets of water, with 10 units per bucket, but they require a bucket to fetch water from them. Each bucket can be used to fill smaller water containers 10 times, and cisterns hold 9 buckets of water. Buckets can also go in carts now, so a cart can carry 40 water.

Ponds contain 20 water and refill completely in 10 hours.
Shallow wells contain 80 water and refill in 40 hours.
Deep wells contain 200 water and refill in 100 hours.

Unless my knowledge of the game is outdated, without buckets a cart can carry 12 water. With buckets and deep wells a cart carries 40 water.
(By the way, is it possible to use buckets with shallow wells? Because it should be.)

Is there actually any reason to build shallow wells?
Containing more water is better because you can get more at once: you spend less time moving water. But a full pond has more water than one player can carry without buckets.
Shallow wells seem to become obsolete the moment they become useful.

(Except if they're cheaper and can still be used with buckets, in which case it's probably better to build several shallow wells before upgrading them.)

Kinrany · 2018-05-31 23:25:41

If anyone wants to make another tool for OHOL: it might be possible to automatically generate a Petri net or some other model based on crafting recipes, and then use static analysis tools to find the bottlenecks.

YAHG · 2018-05-31 23:32:54

sc0rp wrote:

pein wrote:
third step is when water is not a problem but you got no use of it with current recipes
Could you elaborate on that? What "third step" you are talking about? I honestly don't get it. All water sources refil at the same rate, but they need way more advanced tools to use. As I see it, the state is very very fragile. You fuck up your composting a bit, run out of milkweed, cannot replace decaying buckets/carts and then you cannot use any nearby water sources at all (all converted to deep wells). No way to recover.

https://kazetsukai.github.io/onetech/659-Bucket

Does not currently decay as far as I am aware. Getting wells locked up sounds dumb though at least it looks like
they can't go into trash pits or be destroyed short of making deep wells with them.

Perhaps there could be a way to deconstruct wells down to empty version of the lesser model.

sc0rp · 2018-06-01 01:32:34

Kinrany wrote:

Unless my knowledge of the game is outdated, without buckets a cart can carry 12 water. With buckets and deep wells a cart carries 40 water.
(By the way, is it possible to use buckets with shallow wells? Because it should be.)

We need to look also at what happens when you fuck up something slightly. And as I see it, if your composting is not in tip top shape even for one generation, it's game over for a town. Soil is used first for carrots to avoid instant famine. Your water carrying capacity drops to long distance 1. You have only deep wells close and you cannot use them. Your carts decay and you cannot remake them - no spare soil, so no milkweed. Your buckets decay (or soon will) and you cannot remake them. Your baskets decay and trying to remake them obliterates your chances to restart composting. Anyway your water pouches decayed and you don't have milkweed to remake them either.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-06-01 01:36:49)

sc0rp · 2018-06-01 01:36:24

YAHG wrote:

https://kazetsukai.github.io/onetech/659-Bucket
Does not currently decay as far as I am aware.

If I understand correctly Jason's vision with "everything decays" that's a bug and will be fixed as soon as he makes graphics for it. So I wouldn't count on it.

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-01 01:55:51

Kinrany, not sure your math is right on the refill times.

Deep well contains 20 buckets of water, and refills one bucket ever 30 minutes. It refills completely in 10 hours.

Refill Rates:

Pond and shallow well, 2 water per hour.
Deep well, 20 water per hour

pein · 2018-06-01 01:56:59

3rd step is converting dry shallow well into deep well, giving you a lot of water. You need adze for it. This needs adze froh and possibly pickaxe, first four iron goes to hammer, axe, shovel, hoe. When you got adze you can make fence kit, froh to make boards then file, saw to make bucket, this is closer to 10 iron. This refills well and increases capacity . You can then upgrade more wells and don't move from city. As I said a family soup or some other use for bucket of water would make it more appealing. Same limits as branches for forging until you make an axe. Upgrade well to get more water and save on travel time. Paves the way for higher water usage, better food sources which would reward climbing tech tree, instead of carrot farming for 10 generations.

Last edited by pein (2018-06-01 07:23:29)

YAHG · 2018-06-01 02:06:59

Family soup sounds cool. I am imagining a big ole kettle tossing veggies in and scooping out with your bowl..

Yeah I gonna go make some soup now..

sc0rp · 2018-06-01 02:24:50

jasonrohrer wrote:

Kinrany, not sure your math is right on the refill times.
Deep well contains 20 buckets of water, and refills one bucket ever 30 minutes. It refills completely in 10 hours.
Refill Rates:
Pond and shallow well, 2 water per hour.
Deep well, 20 water per hour

Oh, I understand now. It wasn't clear from original description that Deep Wells refill 10x faster. "Unit" seemed to mean just 1 water: "Deep wells contain 200 water in the form of 20 buckets of water, with 10 units per bucket" "All water sources refill very slowly (one unit every 30 minutes)".

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-06-01 02:26:43)

YAHG · 2018-06-01 02:37:59

I wonder how useful it would be to go out on a cart with 3 buckets and a bowl and pillage all the ponds you find to bring home?

Please make this possible is just too cool

Sleeymoon · 2018-06-01 05:31:36

sc0rp wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Kinrany, not sure your math is right on the refill times.
Deep well contains 20 buckets of water, and refills one bucket ever 30 minutes. It refills completely in 10 hours.
Refill Rates:
Pond and shallow well, 2 water per hour.
Deep well, 20 water per hour
Oh, I understand now. It wasn't clear from original description that Deep Wells refill 10x faster. "Unit" seemed to mean just 1 water: "Deep wells contain 200 water in the form of 20 buckets of water, with 10 units per bucket" "All water sources refill very slowly (one unit every 30 minutes)".

This is so much better than I originally thought. I was going to rage about deep wells being dry for 5 hours if you could only use buckets on 10 water. 10 water every 30 minutes is so much better.
I still don't like that they have to be built on ponds. Another thing I thought of is Canada Geese. At what point do they despawn. It would suck if we built all our shallow wells and then realise we can't upgrade to deep wells because we can't make a file.

pein · 2018-06-01 07:29:28

YAHG wrote:

Family soup sounds cool. I am imagining a big ole kettle tossing veggies in and scooping out with your bowl..
Yeah I gonna go make some soup now..

my idea was with family soup, that a bit more complex recipe, would require a bucket of water/take with a cauldron from well, and some from each food source, could be made once per hour per well, toss in the cauldron, soup would refill hunger bar to max, and only to max, but you can only eat near cauldron so would benefit for those who stay home doing stuff, would be a bonus having a well, each upgrade should unlock a recipe, thsi way higher tech is better than lower tech, even if you can fill a bucket with a bowl, it wouldnt matter if you can use the same way, more wells would be inferior to a higher level well

Glassius · 2018-06-01 08:06:55

jasonrohrer wrote:

my infinite-world game engine doesn't support that, I'm not quite sure how to simulate flow correctly and efficiently given that the connected areas might be unbounded in size. and I estimate that coding this up would take about 2-3 weeks of full time coding/testing work (with no content or other updates during that time). It was also never part of the plan, and judged to be out-of-scope long ago (I decided NOT to do any kind of "redstone wire" type thing in this game about 2 years ago)

At least it is good to know, what will not be introduced in the game. The whole point with my phantoms was to use ingame, already present mechanics, but I guess there is problem, as it will be present in crafting references, but still not visible nor usable. Another problem is simulating distant tiles in case of pipes.

Kinrany · 2018-06-01 11:23:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

Kinrany, not sure your math is right on the refill times.
Deep well contains 20 buckets of water, and refills one bucket ever 30 minutes. It refills completely in 10 hours.
Refill Rates:
Pond and shallow well, 2 water per hour.
Deep well, 20 water per hour

Oh, so deep wells measure water in buckets, like cisterns, all right.
Makes shallow wells even less useful, since one deep well is better than ten shallow wells :p

A term that might be useful: bootstrap technology -- tech that is only useful in the brief period of time when a better version is already available, but has higher overhead cost.
If you want to cut down a tree and you have stones, you could cut off a long, thick branch and make a big axe, or you could cut off a short branch, make a small axe, then use it to make the big axe faster. Then you throw away the small axe, because the big one is just better at everything.

Oh, and I found this: wiki.c2.com/?BootstrapTechnology
(Not the category I described above, but close and otherwise relevant to OHOL)

Last edited by Kinrany (2018-06-01 11:25:00)

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Re: Check if these numbers make sense

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