Jason's Murder Problem Thread

Kinrany · 2018-04-19 17:37:40

(Word, not world, duh.)

Joriom wrote:

So lets also taboo the use of "One Hour" and lets leave the game as "One Life" - no rebirth. Ever. Cause respawning is as vague as reincarnation or maic.

Tabooing a word doesn't affect the game, only the discussion. Your sarcastic suggestion to change the game is in no way related to what I said.

Respawning usually means an event where the player gets a new avatar. Karma and magic are meaningless without additional context.

Turnipseed · 2018-04-19 17:53:55

Kinrany wrote:

Also, can we please taboo the world word "karma"? It's as vague as "magic".

Karma is generally understood to be a reflection of past actions on future occurances it is in no way vauge like magic. And it is very relevant to being reborn, as some people believe it dictates what class you will be reborn into when you die in real life. It is a widely understood concept with clear definition.

Kinrany · 2018-04-19 20:02:44

Karma is generally understood to be a reflection of past actions on future occurances it is in no way vauge like magic.

Right, karma implies that there's a dependency. But it provides zero information about that dependency. Knowing that there's a karma system in the game is useless if you can't somehow guess what exactly this system does. In the context of this discussion we can guess that it's supposed to somehow prevent griefing, but we still have no idea what exactly the given poster wants it to do. Everyone could agree that there needs to be a karma system and have directly opposite or completely unrelated implementations in mind.

My point is, concepts that aren't fictional, like magic or souls, or fully general, like computers, make better metaphors.

Potjeh · 2018-04-19 20:07:57

Karma is a visible stat that helps your Mom decide if she wants to raise you.

Turnipseed · 2018-04-19 21:11:55

Potjeh wrote:

Karma is a visible stat that helps your Mom decide if she wants to raise you.

A colored name gradient from say blue to red would be a nice indicator of someone's reputation. Tracking it is the problem. Things can be good or bad based on circumstances. A prime example is wheat. You need some to compost, but if someone plants all the feilds with it you will starve out. So you cant inherently say planting is "good" . People grief all their lives but still die at sixty so age wont work. Mabey a player rating system... but that could get complicated.

I still think stockcades requiring two people to lock/unlock and branding is the best way to go. That way a lone griefer cant use it, but the town could effectivly remove a griefer from their town for a while. Forcing them to spawn as a male far away.

jdniff · 2018-04-20 17:13:11

I have been wondering about the murdering problem. And lets just say I have been "testing the waters" so to speak. In one life I was born to the queen of the village and later crowned on the royal thrown. Anyone who opposed my rule was "disposed of". Well, I managed to kill three rebels before a group of low life thugs tried to destroy my rule. I wrestled to protect my crown and eventually managed to kill one of the rebels. But just as I was turning to take out the next thug, I died of hunger. Later I realized I had three knifes, why didn't I just make a royal guard? well you live and learn. But then in another life, I was born in a village with major over population and food stores where draining fast. So what can I do to help? getting more food would be difficult in the short term and something needs to be done fast. I try letting the villagers know and stop letting every baby live to help out. My request is unanswered so its time to take matters into my own hands. I find a few caves and lure in a bear that goes to town on the citizens, in less than a minute the bear had already ate up all the kids and women producing them. It was horrible, I later realized we had no women left, no young ones anyways. I had indeed done a terrible thing, but it did allow for the villagers that lived in the village to prosper and eventually a unrelated eve came along and gave her child to our village. In a strange way, I was able to save our village from utter destruction.

That being said, I think that there are some issues in the game that should not be solved by the developer and should instead be collectively addressed by the community. The purpose of this game is to replicate the system of working together in a collective to produce something we wouldn't be able to on our own. That's why we should have an entire forum page dedicated to in-game issues. Such as; policing, law regulations, royalty and crowns, population control, and those are just a few. Just how Jason let us know not to pick the last berry or to only pick fruiting plants, or only kill the family rabbit pits.

Also, having babies born with "the mark" if they where murderers in their previous life sounds interesting. But if that's the case, there should be a "non-lethal" way to handle criminals so that police forces or protectors don't receive the mark. This non lethal method can't be to restraining because that would take away the fun of the game, perhaps adding shields to the game would be a clever mechanic. These shields should be able to block arrows, and push back knife holders, they should also be attachable in a way that allows for you to have a backpack and hold something while wearing the shield. This would give a large advantage to the defenders and make pvp kind of dull, but it would raise the level of protection available. letting knives and shields be wielded at the same time shouldn't be an issue since even if the other side has both knife and shield he still won't be able to stab another party that only has a shield.

Well that's all my thoughts on this subject good luck on finding a solution.

Angel Carrillo · 2018-04-20 20:36:32

But there's a catch, this is just a game that comes bought through someone's wallet. And, it is just a game/ social experiment. Potjeh, I gotta say, you steam a good idea. Rather than outright perm or temp banning players we could use Potjeh's idea instead. Or, we can just understand that this is a game, and murderers or either people like Joriom are either A. to prove point aka Joriom, B. being an ass that can be ignored, C. experimenting (which I will be a murderer soon, so if you die to some dude with a bow or knife, it might be me trying to experiment with murdering), or D. being an ass that CANNOT be ignored. The D. 's are the ones that are to be dealt with. But Potjeh's idea also serves the good people too, which is what I like about it.

Finrael · 2018-04-20 23:50:05

Hi guys, first time around.
Just wanted to pop in here and ask someone to tell the story of the Great Necropolis. I believe some grief'er will come eventually to boast about, but would really like some great story telling from inside the walls.

Just to summarize, There is... was a great city, that was utterly destroyed by a few people. City itself was biggest I ever saw, huge berry and carrot farms. Great storage and and sheep den and best of all...Walls, that surrounded everything. My mom was one of first to discover Necropolis, so life was slow, but soon some outsiders came, a lot of women and baby boom began. In the hight, population reached maybe even 15-20 people, with everyone almost fully clothed. City was that huge and had a big storage of pies. People began to farm carrots, eat berries...
And then It began. First someone lured a bear in a city. Me and my brother made quick work of this threat and it took only one life. I thought that was it. After that, a few of us that was aware of the bear, went doing our business...Trying to organize city life.... in Meantime all the bows have disappeared inside the walls.
All the water for farms came from wells or some ponds outside of city walls... Walls surrounded us, and there was only one exit, one title wide. That exit was blocked (build a wall in the gap) and 15+ people were trapped inside. Not knowingly, people dried up all the wells and people with awareness got wind of this. We came to the north walls (Where the exit was) to check on it, when couple of people started raining arrows from beyond the walls. Hard to say, but maybe 7 or more people were sniped by these killers beyond city wall. Maybe even more, because there were people outside, that we couldn't see.
Water being gone, famine kicked in. Carrots were consumed first. Then time came for huge plantation of berries (when i say huge, I mean huge 100-150 bushes), with berries gone, bushes dried up and died. Last 6-8 was holding on with pies. Trying to find a way how to brake out and stay away from walls because of killers patrolling along the walls. People were able to build a new well, we had a pickax... But hope was short lived. Some young man took pouch of water and kept slapping the wall with it while people shouted to stop, until the shallow well dried up. Shortly after young boy came with a well kit for deeper well...
Last part was just scrambling all the food we could, us last 4 people. Starving the babies, running around the walls and asking occasional friendly people that was passing by (somehow with knives and not knowing the game that much) to help but it was futile. Last years I spent with my uncle, eating re spawning occasional berry. Props to uncle coming with the idea killing all the sheep that was grown and cook it. It was great, for firewood we shopped Berry bushes. Could have lived until our days end, but unfortunately died of accidental starvation at 43 years (just cooked the meat)...

City was littered with dead bodies, still with clothes close by them...
Great Mega-polis that it was, it was struck down by people, becoming first a jail and then just place for dead to rest.
The Great Necropolis.

Somehow short text become long. Hope its bearable and readable.

P.S English is my second language, don't condemn to much. XD

Lily · 2018-04-21 03:07:34

Finrael wrote:

Hi guys, first time around.
Just wanted to pop in here and ask someone to tell the story of the Great Necropolis. I believe some grief'er will come eventually to boast about, but would really like some great story telling from inside the walls.

Yeah, the people who built the city keep coming back and griefing everyone, because people keep messing stuff up. I am not sure their scorch earth approach is all that effective however. Even if you kill everyone, and then fix everything, the people will just return again later. I do kind of understand why they are upset, but their answer isn't really productive.

kubassa · 2018-04-21 15:27:51

All you need to do is make it so if a player kills 5 people they get a "time out".

Kick them from the game for 1 or 2 hours.

problem solved.

rodrigo · 2018-04-22 02:23:04

People kill because they are bored of farming and making stuff.

There is no major threat to unite then. If you have a rome empire the big problem is to deal with food but rome empire declined (and many others like WW2) especialy from outsiders attacks, rome empire from barbarians. If there was some way to make people harder and make then protect thenselves, the grief/murderer rate will be boring, killing some unarmed farms in the city is boring.

Imagine if there was monsters, barbarians, attacking the city, would be awesome and will make people unite. I had a recent suggestion about it. (family grave)

To make a battle system, would be better if there is at least 3 states or "hearts", and then you can apply something to be better. 2 hearts you could got slower and hungrier, 1 hearts more.

Then could do something like armor to get less damage, like someone give 3 damage, insta kill, with armor reduce to 2, better armor reduce more, at minimum of 1. This could be way more in future, bronze age (but there is no bronze lol)

Anshin · 2018-04-22 04:01:39

Threats? They have bears and wolves and snakes to kill...

Glassius · 2018-04-23 01:31:16

Hi guys! As casual I am stunned how are you guys missing simple solutions (not all of you!) that might improve current imbalancies and give more freedom to us, players. And even more: add immersion trough realism!

1. Make murders and griefing not only an option, but a very valid way trough karma system (after reborn we share memory with previous life, why not the soul?). Catching players on lassos or putting them in front of court is counterproductive. Griefer may log out and it would be silly to punish him with ban while he paid for the game. There is still the way to give karma by players, not the game: blessings and curses. Like in Bible (this game have many religious motives) it was Cain's blood what called God for punishment. Therefore, by blessing /curse (one action per life?) system we can award players to give them marks (maybe visible only after reborn?). This way we may have... Prophets with aureolas! True rulers that may overcome (the possible tyranny) of current kings . And Cain marked kids who should be born to other Cain mark holders. Enough curses may give ability to canibalism, which can produce entire tribes of savages rampaging whole cities out. Griefers will not be only bored endgamers trying to prove something out. Karma should also go back to neutral every reborn, so prophets and cannibals are not too easy to create. Maybe add some hysteresis, so simple threshold would not clear previous guilts? Easy to catch cannibal trait, little hard to remove it?
Realism aspect: some people have charisma and are natural born leaders. Aureolas may be a way to give some people this trait. Also, cannibalism was popular in prehistoric tribes and in XX century was accepted only in savage tribes.

2. We can't have NPC guards? Of course we can! Lets domesticate wolfs. They are so many possibilities!
- guards on doorstep. May attack anyone but the owner who steps in. Tied to skewer (fence? tree?) may protect also surrounding tiles up to 10 tiles (including middle). On owner request (Rex sit! Rex stay! Rex guard!) can allow to bypass strangers trough city gate (this would require the first guy holding a puppy to give it a name, which creates pernament owner-dog connection)
- can dogs bark on bears, wolfs and Cain mark holders? Or only at fresh murderers?
- as followers may be bodyguards attacking the killer
- maybe help hunting? Fetching catched rabbits, gooses? Would it require rabbits and gooses to wander around hide spots, so only fast dogs may overrun them and catch for owner?
- may carry items in dog sledges? Improvised stretchers, usable also by humans? They may be low-level carts with only two basket allowed to carry. This would also support low lewel nomad tribes, because backpack is actually quite advanced technology
- tracking dogs, which can catch the smell of murderer from fresh, bloody grave/body. This way, you can remove unnatural slowing effect and weapons which cannot be dropped for a while from murderers. They would need to wash themselves and their clothing after homicide in order to loose dog follower Maybe only cloth change?
- to counter such strong ally, they would need to eat. May they even be tricked by Kentucky Fried Goose to make them peaceful meat eaters for a while?
Realism aspect: dogs were domesticated before horses and sheeps. They also have all the features mentioned above and many more!

3. Make shelves. They may have higher capacity then carts and cannot be just dragged away by griefer. They may also be little more easy to craft, as furniture is simpler then vehicles. This is much better for settled down community. Realism aspect: this whole point.

4. Give weapons semi hp feature. Each hit may drag some hunger instatly out while giving bleeding effect on view others (maybe bleeding only on sharp weapons?). This way, stabbing with knife may be lethal, just not instantly. Just like arrow shot wolf. Possibilities:
- adrenaline kick so victimc can eacape. Much more realistic than slowing shock on attacker
- give males perma armor, so attacking them takes always 1-2 less hunger bars away? This would also fix a little the male useless issues. Now young male baby would not be a burden usually left by Eves in wilderness. They are future protectors! Realism aspect: woman survive longer on starvation so giving them shorter hunger bars is counterintuitive. But still, on average they are shorter, weaker, slower. Permaarmor would reflect this difference and give men at least one advantage over women, so they are not abandon so often
- bleeding citizen may search help. Maybe we can add craftable bandages? Realism aspect: medicine!
- this would also support animal attacks. Wolfs are usually hurting their prey and following it during bleeding. Snakes instead of permakill may poison victim. Craftable antidote may be a new feature. Bear victim may survive a little under bear attack with no escape possibility. Others may kill the bear and help attacked one. Realism: medicine and semi combat mode. Because some people survived bear attacks
- can make all tools and even fists a weapon. With blunt damage giving no bleeding, while sharp tools may cause some bleeding. They can be much weaker than knifes and bows. Realism aspect: there are many events were mob was able to stop a rampage. If killer IRL want to make massacre, he goes to gun free zone: usually school, univercity, music event. The Russeau peaculf tribe man is a myth. Allow me attack others with a rock!

The last realism aspect: our ancestors lived in rich environments, which are now agricultured, leaving for current hunter gatherers barren bioms. Despite that, they usually work only 2 hours a day to sustain themselves! The biggest challenge for hunter gatherers and first farmers were other people.

Chimpanzee homicide rate is 30%, Amazonian savages around 15%. 30-year warr carried away more Germans than WW2. In total numbers! There is really no point in removing violence from the game. In fact, it would be even more amazing to raise the kid in so unfriendly environment!

The last point, directly to Jason: you are running in place while trying to make village sustaining a challenge. Add soil crafting, nerve it with finite worms, make seeding carrots remove soil, add diggable burdock root. IRL sustaining the village was easy and possible even without depleting resources. This is other humans who were making survival hard. I have more points connected to your 'everything runs out' approach i hope to tell later. Also, violence and thus war, is stronger connected with long journeys than scavenging the area And longer journeys of Eves unable to sustain their children after one of patches is the thing you enjoyed. But, it pisses people, especially casuals like me.

Guys, thanks for reading the whole post. Basing on the feedback, I may put these suggestions on reddit, or support already existing threads. I am sorry for every mistake, but I am writing from mobile, not even in my native language. To not trash this thread with grammar nazi: please inform me about language errors in priv.

Joriom · 2018-04-23 01:36:00

*reads Glassius post*
*looks at Glassius post count*
"Posts: 1"

Yup. Would expect something like that.

Glassius · 2018-04-23 02:03:56

First posts are always the longest. But it covers some suggestions you pointed out, like karma (positive and negative) and mob strength (which is a double bladed sword, but griefers are minority, so it would support mostly peaceful town folks). It even covered your grief method (stealing container carts) and... Common survival method from your Eve guide. Why raise boys afterall, as woman can do all the same? You should be satisfied finding the supporter, even if you dislike most of his ideas.

The last point to my countryman: idź już spać Rodaku

breezeknight · 2018-06-01 06:50:40

@jasonrohrer

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, that is also true.
Obviously, this game is not real life.
However, I have to be careful not to build the solution into the game and "solve it for you." Like a karma system would do that automatically. People would no longer have to think about it or come up with their own solutions or have guards.
I want you to solve it, in various ways, because that is interesting. The game is full of problems for you to solve. That is all it is. Problems, and their various solutions, make for interesting stories. Problems are at the heart of drama.
On the other hand, if it's actually impossible for you to solve, that is a huge problem.
Respawning is non-trivial in this game, so we're already way better off than pretty much any game operating in this space.
Hard server assignments would also help. Suppose you are assigned to a server for an hour. If you die before that, you get assigned to a different one. If you live the full hour, you stay on that server.

i think the obsession with killers while forgetting the victims completely, even that obsession sipping into the victim part & poisoning it with the fear that killers & griefers couldn't be killed easily if they had the option to heal, to prevent being killed, to protect themselves from being killed is a big part of the problem here

the murder & killing problem of OHOL is not about killers
that problem is about the victims - the victims alone & their complete helplessness

not giving victims peaceful ways to protect themselves against being booted out of the game BECAUSE killers could use that same method is not the right way
knives are made to be used in a peaceful way & they can be used to murder, why was this not any of your sorrows preventing you from enabling murder in the first place ?

also there are no "various ways" to solve being murdered, being a victim
there is only one way - run away

give players actually a pool of civilizatory options of peaceful protection, prevention & cure & you'll see an immediate improvement of interest in the game

if you want players to be creative in the game, then you have to provide opitions & tools to be creative, like medicine, magic, profession ...
those are not solutions, those are options
the current gameplay options are just not enough to be able to form something useful other than a general survival & some bits of a basic farming & crafting without any development of purpose, satisfaction, gain, enjoyment, reward, creativity
the best one can do is some pretend roleplaying, because the actual options are just not there, sorry

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

breezeknight wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
...
You do have walls for a reason, to control access. If you're worried about a griefer planting the wrong crop, put walls around the farm fields. Only let the farmer in and out. Post a guard by the door. Tools getting stolen? Do you leave your tools in real life laying on the ground? No. If you did, they would get stolen too! So you put them in a tool shed.
The king always has a wall around his garden in real life.
But walls won't work if you can't threaten someone at the gate with violence to make them go away.
Gates in real life usually have two guards for a reason...

After thinking this over more, I think that most of the tools to solve these problems are in your hands, and a few more (like locks) will come in the future.
And these ARE the problems that civilization needs to solve.
Even modern civilizations are still trying to solve these problems. Lots of murders in real life go unsolved.

I will work on the "can't stab a moving person" issue. Running around shouldn't be a form of defense.
i would be very happy if there were farmers in OHOL, for now those are random people, looking like everybody else, maybe even nameless, how should i know how skilled or trustworthy ?
i really hope some day we'll get actual professions, IRL not everybody can just waltz in & be a farmer where carrots are
similar is with guards
i have still first to see a town in OHOL with actual guards, so far everything is chaos, stuff scattered everywhere because people just try to survive
but i am already happy if there is no murderer running free & killing people
IRL there are options against murder, violence, assault,
in OHOL it's just running away, which might be the same dangerous as just getting killed, because of bears, snakes or lack of food & clothing in a cold biome
i am not against murder in general in OHOL, i just want options for the victims, the kick for killers in OHOL is to kick out other players out of the town, out of the game,
it's power, they shouldn't be that powerful, they are more powerdul than the kings & queens, killers are the most powerful in OHOL, followed by griefers, what civilization can come out of that ?

Last edited by breezeknight (2018-06-01 07:27:24)

SimonK.Icyy · 2018-06-01 07:40:42

Two ideas that the game could deal with this.

Serial killers are people who have killed 3 or more people. If you kill 3 or more people in a lifetime, then the next life you spawn with a distinctive birth mark of some sort. This mark stays with you until you die of old age without killing anybody or until a certain amount of hours have passed. One problem with this is that no one would want to keep a baby with a birth mark so i'm not sure this would work, however it would greatly discourage mass killing.

Another change that could happen is that after you kill someone, blood stays on your body/hands for a set amount of time, say 10 minutes. This would give people the chance to see that you are a killer and question you about your murder.

The second option is a better option if you want to keep the policing in the hands of the people instead of by 1s and 0s.

breezeknight · 2018-06-01 08:47:24

@SimonK.Icyy

your suggestions deal again only with the killers & focuss on them
the usual complaint about it is also the same as always
just because players killed griefers & initial killers doesn't make them killers themselves, they see themselves & probably even are the protector of civ, to mark them as serial killers won't be helpful to the development of civ
same goes for your second suggestion, it will mark those who helped the settlement by killing killers in the same non-distinguishing way

Alleria · 2018-06-01 09:34:38

Centeotl, the God of Corn will protect us. You peasants need no longer worry about food or murderers, for Centeotl protects - unless you eat the corn before it dries. CORN FOR THE CORN GOD!

ALL HAIL
THE CORN GOD, CENTEOTL
STONE THE BERRISLAMISTS
BEHEAD THE CARROTISTS

Last edited by Alleria (2018-06-01 09:35:43)

TrustyWay · 2018-06-01 10:40:51

Some people said murder numbers were like 1% of the death. Jason said once 2% long time ago. When things go bad I stab useless people, griefers and killers, crown stealers. Even if I'm the good guy i end up killing people pretty often

sc0rp · 2018-06-01 17:06:41

First game today, figuring out buckets and corn. Already random mass murder around. Even if I know what's happening and flee, I'm completely helpless. With recent milkweed nerfs making a bow outside village takes half a lifetime. And it's not even that somebody worked very hard to kill people. It was just some random starving, maybe lag. Closest person pick up a knife and went on murder spree. I've suicided by snake. I doesn't make sense to play this game in village with 10+ people.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-06-01 17:07:32)

thewhiterabbit21 · 2018-06-01 17:50:42

Jason doesn't want the game to solve our problems for us. What if we solved our own problems (with an in game solution that he would still have to code... heh)?

And by that, I mean, perhaps Jason could create a way for some towns people to become doctors by creating a potion or bandage to put on a person after they are injured, as long as it took place within a certain number of seconds after the attack, they could be saved.

This potion and/or bandage could be either really easy to make or really hard. Making it really hard would give people something else to do.

Perhaps the bandage could be easy and the potion could be super hard and take a long time - and only last once?
The potion could restore a person to normal health and a normal lifespan, but the bandage would only give a person 10 or so more years, so long as they keep putting another one on every 5 years? So even though it is simple to make, it is not the most convenient solution.

Sure, some griefers may get their hands on a potion, which could be an issue. A way to prevent that could be to only allow the maker to use it on themself or someone else or to pass it on to someone. If they were killed and, for some reason, didn't use it on themself, the potion would shatter on the ground and disappear into the ground. Not sure what to do about the bandage... You guys have any ideas?

I suppose this also means the potion would have to be carried in one hand at all times or in a backpack. I'm not sure if this is really logistically possible, but I like the idea of having a healer/doctor.

Last edited by thewhiterabbit21 (2018-06-01 17:51:15)

ZneoC · 2018-06-02 02:00:30

Curses.
I think that's a simple answer.

If you are murdered, or there is a freight, in chat you can say:" I curse you >name<!", If you have been murdered or there is a greifer.

This way any survivors who can't defend or know know what the person is doing to ruin the game could THEN get karma ping'd.
Worse karma you have the harder it gets to play for a while.

The more people who curse you the more it sucks.

Perhaps only adults can say it? Considering how many words it takes.

But ultimately you could curse someone into a new age, and know that they will pay for it.

But we would have to be fair about it, and not misuse it.
Quick edit:
One or two people cannot ruin the life of someone, it would have to take a whole community, and chatting with each others for others to want to say it.

The longer someone wants to get cursed, the more cursed they become.

Also make it so they have to say it so the cursed knows it. A mob of people telling them they are cursing them for eternity.

Last edited by ZneoC (2018-06-02 02:05:26)

sc0rp · 2018-06-02 02:29:06

ZneoC wrote:

Curses.
I think that's a simple answer.

Been proposed many times in this thread:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … p=6#p15560

Pronghorn · 2018-06-02 02:35:34

I agree with the those that think a murderer should have some sort of bad consequence for the action but also that medicine should be added to the game for the victim or villagers to administer.

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