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Kinrany

Member

Registered: 2018-01-22

Posts: 712

Re: Jason's Murder Problem Thread

I agree with this. What I meant by "not up to the designer" is Jason, himself, monitoring specific players and making a judgement call on whether or not that person is a griefer.

I agree, that's not sustainable.

Joriom said that he kills most players by sabotage, not a knife. That is definitely griefing, but clearly not murder.

Oh, by "parties" I meant groups of players, so I intended to include (one kind of) murder as damage.

But it's true that there's a difference between property damage and homicide. Death is inherently irreversible, plus it directly affects the attacked party's ability to recover and retaliate.

So there are two kinds of terrorism: murder and vandalism. They're more specific than homicide and property damage: homicide includes lawful executions and combat; property damage includes sabotage as a warfare tactic.

What if we added this?
5) It is possible to recover from mismanaged resources

Now we've got a new question (and one I like a lot), which is, "how do we implement (5)?"
(5) may already be possible in the game, but not if everyone in village is dead, which takes us back to murder. So, maybe murder is the appropriate topic for this thread, as opposed to griefing. Hm.

Recovering from vandalism can be implemented as making almost all actions reversible. The more numerous party wins if they spend exactly as much energy as the less numerous party attacking them.
Note that to revert an action, it's necessary to know about it in the first place. For example, finding hidden items is harder than hiding them; footprints could help with that.

Recovering from murder is a harder problem because a) respawns are free, b) death is irreversible, c) the attacker has the initiative and could manage to kill two. When the attacker is born in the same party she attacks, there's also d) resources wasted raising them.

One way to fix this is to make homicide resource-intensive, so that there's a necessary resource gathering step. And those actions are reversible.
For example, there could be a slightly VtMB-like humanity system:

• Humanity meter that doesn't reset on death.

• Fighting costs humanity.

• Zero humanity makes one break down crying and starve to death. Or turn into a bear. Or both.

• Shouting burns humanity to decrease someone else's humanity.

• People over 50 regenerate humanity and can give it to others.

By the way, here's another kind of griefing. Raiding is using superior numbers to destroy already existing villages by spawning there or nearby. Defending should probably be easier than attacking, and that's why in the above list humanity regenerates only after 50, but that's just a half-baked sketch of a solution.

Perhaps we really should move to a separate thread.

Edit: clarified the last point of the list.

Last edited by Kinrany (2018-06-03 19:20:11)

breezeknight

Member

Registered: 2018-04-02

Posts: 813

Re: Jason's Murder Problem Thread

Recovering from vandalism can be implemented as making almost all actions reversible. The more numerous party wins if they spend exactly as much energy as the less numerous party attacking them.
Note that to revert an action, it's necessary to know about it in the first place. For example, finding hidden items is harder than hiding them; footprints could help with that.

Recovering from murder is a harder problem because a) respawns are free, b) death is irreversible, c) the attacker has the initiative and could manage to kill two. When the attacker is born in the same party she attacks, there's also d) resources wasted raising them.

One way to fix this is to make homicide resource-intensive, so that there's a necessary resource gathering step. And those actions are reversible.
For example, there could be a slightly VtMB-like humanity system:

• Humanity meter that doesn't reset on death.

• Fighting costs humanity.

• Zero humanity makes one break down crying and starve to death. Or turn into a bear. Or both.

• Shouting burns humanity to decrease someone else's humanity.

• After 50 years humanity starts to regenerate and can be given to others.

By the way, here's another kind of griefing. Raiding is using superior numbers to destroy already existing villages by spawning there or nearby. Defending should probably be easier than attacking, and that's why in the above list humanity regenerates only after 50, but that's just a half-baked sketch of a solution.

Perhaps we really should move to a separate thread.

you concentrate again on the murderer
the game is unable to distinguish between someone who kills & someone who kills a killer, or someone who kills by accident
so also those who killed a killer or not intentionally would lose their humanity in your scenario

your suggestion is already proposing a certain kind of morality, not even i would want it this way in the game
i prefer to concentrate on the victims, empower those
& not on the murderers, not to punish or weaken those

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Last edited by breezeknight (2018-06-03 15:23:51)

Kinrany

Member

Registered: 2018-01-22

Posts: 712

Re: Jason's Murder Problem Thread

breezeknight, I think you're attacking a strawman. I haven't mentioned morality at all.

Humanity is supposed to simulate human empathy that makes one feel bad about killing someone or having a social fight with someone, regardless of morality or consequences.

Humanity is generated by all elderly people, so it helps the party that has more people that live to old age.

TrustyWay

Member

Registered: 2018-03-12

Posts: 570

Re: Jason's Murder Problem Thread

breezeknight, I think you're attacking a strawman. I haven't mentioned morality at all.

Humanity is supposed to simulate human empathy that makes one feel bad about killing someone or having a social fight with someone, regardless of morality or consequences.

Humanity is generated by all elderly people, so it helps the party that has more people that live to old age.

It induces morality on what should be done and not done such as killing. Is strawman the new trending word ?

Raiding isn't griefing and there are no more raiding (removed)if anything that is harmful to players is griefing we are in troubles.

Reaching is almost impossible for most of people, imagine giving them humanity with what ?  Thumbs up or "good boy"  ? Ewww
Then giving humanity would even harder because you need choose people that wont die young, almost impossible when most of people die. And who says they wont suicide right after recieving humanity ? Which guys deverse humanity ? Because I know they will give it to some random pricks.

I find this humanity thing a bit complicated and it limits the gameplay quit much, I am not really enthusiate about this suggestion. I don't think it has his place in this game.

Just look at scr0p, he learned how to deal with problems and now he oftenly kills griefers and murderers.

Last edited by TrustyWay (2018-06-03 18:58:49)

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sc0rp

Member

Registered: 2018-05-25

Posts: 740

Re: Jason's Murder Problem Thread

Just look at scr0p, he learned how to deal with problems and now he oftenly kills griefers and murderers.

I didn't stop hating them, though. And I kill probably only very inept ones. That being said, I still would like to have karma-like system in game. But before I finish design, I need to learn what kind of defence is already possible, so I don't overreact. I hate to say that, but I also will need to see how it looks from the griefer's side, so just... you know... beware

BTW. I want raids back and I think that some karma-like system will make it possible. Seriously. People will love to have griefer born it the town.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-06-03 19:33:06)

aowen

Member

Registered: 2018-06-02

Posts: 40

Re: Jason's Murder Problem Thread

Recovering from vandalism can be implemented as making almost all actions reversible.

Jason said earlier in this thread that he opposes this. Page 5.
I'm a bit skeptical of it, too. People make mistakes, they do things they can't undo. I don't think you can make almost all actions reversible without breaking that tenet of the game.

One way to fix this is to make homicide resource-intensive, so that there's a necessary resource gathering step. And those actions are reversible.
For example, there could be a slightly VtMB-like humanity system:

• Humanity meter that doesn't reset on death.

• Fighting costs humanity.

• Zero humanity makes one break down crying and starve to death. Or turn into a bear. Or both.

• Shouting burns humanity to decrease someone else's humanity.

• People over 50 regenerate humanity and can give it to others.

This seems a bit heavy weight, but it contains some ideas that I agree with.

Some thoughts:
- Is humanity revealed to the players, or is it hidden?
- I'm not convinced fighting should cost humanity. Sometimes you have to kill the serial killer, should players perceive that as a bad action? Keep in mind that most players learn what to do from the game itself (in this case, from in-game players, too).
- Please don't turn a low humanity person into a bear.
- How much can 1 person burn another's humanity? Are they allowed to spam it?

Perhaps we really should move to a separate thread.

Yeah, it seems that this thread is older than this one, where Jason was more recently active. I'm going to catch up on all the suggestions there, probably chime in the next time something like this comes up.

Thanks for all the feedback. This has been really helpful. : )