Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

YAHG · 2018-06-07 06:55:19

Somethings in game for weird reasons just don't decay, it is kinda haphazard.

Skins, Muflon, Sheep, Seal (last is also bugged to not insulate):

Whole villages of people just wear these, they last forever. Endless mobs of people dressed as
sheep feeding on endless fields of berries... Ironic

Boxes, Handcarts, Wheelbarrels, Horse with Carts:

Only Handcarts decay atm and they can not be repaired so people just make everything else. If
we could repair semi broken stuff and there wasn't stages that were immortal that would be nice.

Fences also last forever for some reason as well as filled trash pits..

I am sure other folks can come up with more examples. I get it, there is a temptation to not want
the easy parts of the game to be fixed but like the berry seas it messes with the game.

Rebel · 2018-06-07 15:05:43

He only has just really introduced decay on items, I am sure he will add more as time goes on. plus, he needs to find the balance for items. imagine if everything was suddenly decaying and it wasn't balanced would be a nightmare. I imagine adding decay to everything will pretty much double the item list. considering theme is that decay leaves something broken behind.

pein · 2018-06-07 16:02:15

these thigns beeing partially culled after update so its fine

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-07 16:22:29

I have seen people running around in sheep skins and so on.

Does a seal coat really not insulate? Oh, the skin by itself, yes, I see that. Fixed. And I nerfed the sheep skin. It's open in the front, so it shouldn't keep you that warm.

The idea with decay is that it motivates multiple roles over the life of the village, and hopefully (eventually) specialization. We can't just make enough clothes in the beginning and forget about it. We can't just make a few carts and forget about it.

Given that a cart lasts 10 hours, which is longer than most villages (30 generations), it's still so strange that people avoid making one. I mean, I guess it's just a psychological issue at this point.

I do need to fix the leaks, mostly just for alternatives to the decaying items. If you want to carry a bunch of stuff, you should have to use a decaying option.

But fences probably don't matter so much. I mean, yeah, maybe someday I want "fence builder" as a specialization, but it's not crucial to have that yet.

Also, once I get the food pressure right, any village that wants to survive longer-term will need to be making the "good" clothes and not running around naked.

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-07 17:14:58

Also, I see your Walrus and raise you a Pepper, Paul.

Intangir · 2018-06-07 17:17:59

the decay for some things is just tedious and annoying

like a storehouse when all of the baskets break in the carts..

its hard to feel like your even making an impact for the next generation when everything you make breaks soon after you do and they are left with nothing

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-07 18:32:02

Baskets take 10 hours to decay.... again, 30 generations.

Everything you make does not break soon after.

YAHG · 2018-06-07 18:43:45

Cool!

I am physicked about the sealskin... It is the only skin you can get with shit tier tools (~2 step crafts from wild).

There are whole villages with sheep skins, with piles of spare skins everywhere </3

ZneoC · 2018-06-08 04:58:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

I have seen people running around in sheep skins and so on.
Does a seal coat really not insulate? Oh, the skin by itself, yes, I see that. Fixed. And I nerfed the sheep skin. It's open in the front, so it shouldn't keep you that warm.
The idea with decay is that it motivates multiple roles over the life of the village, and hopefully (eventually) specialization. We can't just make enough clothes in the beginning and forget about it. We can't just make a few carts and forget about it.
Given that a cart lasts 10 hours, which is longer than most villages (30 generations), it's still so strange that people avoid making one. I mean, I guess it's just a psychological issue at this point.
I do need to fix the leaks, mostly just for alternatives to the decaying items. If you want to carry a bunch of stuff, you should have to use a decaying option.

But fences probably don't matter so much. I mean, yeah, maybe someday I want "fence builder" as a specialization, but it's not crucial to have that yet.
Also, once I get the food pressure right, any village that wants to survive longer-term will need to be making the "good" clothes and not running around naked.

Decay is a great idea, when fully implemented and balance.

You just have a binary decay system where items decay or they do not.

Other options for decay would be a slider scale type of decay, where building materials decay faster or slower depending on their components/materials/use.

I can see why you would want to try and do a "hot fix" on 6 (out of over 600) items to try and balance the games mechanics, but in doing so, you either make things obsolete, or overpowered.

Looking at the problem as a mechanical instead of a human problem is what it is going to fix.

The players choose what is best, not the creator. The creator only creates toys, then gets to sit back and observe.

You are going to need a complicated system to balance a complicated situation. Quick easy fixes are not always the best choice.

I am just thinking out loud, with long term in mind. I know this game is new, and there is another to be done, but I would hate myself if I didn't say anything.

:D
Off work edit:

What I am trying to say is a perfect system is when minor tweaks are all you need.
My suggestion is to just make items, lots of items, and release those items in your weekly update, and then do a monthly mechanic update where it adds a whole new system to deal with.

Considering real world reasons why we use things in our lives as real human beings, and why we don't use them, and then code those do and donts as mehanics.

Weight, rarity, cost, time for production, durability, time of processing materials, technology to process those items, because the availability of cheaper, better, cost efficient materials will always be the ones that are mass produced and used by players because we are humans.

We don't use horses any more. Some kids don't even know what an abacus is used for, so naturally the cream rises to the top for easy pickings.

It is theorized that the wheat whose seeds didn't touch the ground to be eaten by animals, was the wheat that passed on its genetics as humans gathered it, and saved it to plant the next crop, generation after generation, eventually, until only the hardiest, biggest, most beneficial to humans is now the species that dominates all other edible grasses on almost every major continent, and can be traced back to the first times man discovered beer! That was almost 7500 years ago.

I don't know how far you want to take this (I have a tendency to take things to their conceptual limits) game, and how much you want to develop it, and to what degree, so only code for what you are willing to maintain

Thanks for reading it if you got this far XD

Last edited by ZneoC (2018-06-08 06:20:27)

TrustyWay · 2018-06-08 09:26:37

Guys, it is cool to suggest things, but putting decay to everything is... really anyoning when you repeat your task thousands times while younglings just look at you eating food. I hate resewing new clothes everytime, I'm done with it. I rather be naked than making clothes that last one real freaking human hour.

People telling me it is 60 years can shut up, it still is only 60 minutes call years. But in my life minutes fly like second. Everything I make is doom to evaporate faster than water on the ground. My work at the end didn't worth anything because my family still die liek tardish.

I do like hardcore games, I have been beta testing since years. But OLOH gameplay really try to make us bored of it. I like when it was still about interactions. Decay is just removing us free time and ask us to repeat and repeat.

I see toons of people ditching tasks as carpenter or sewer because you never stop.

I have a huge point to demonstrate you how annoying it is : we all make backpack when we start life. We lose our first minutes, even more if you are a regular player, sewing one.

Last edited by TrustyWay (2018-06-08 09:46:39)

Rebel · 2018-06-08 20:58:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

Baskets take 10 hours to decay.... again, 30 generations.
Everything you make does not break soon after.

ahhh man, means I can no longer be a basket farmer.. felt so important.. le cry.

you can't please everyone I guess, some people like hardcore survival, some people just want to cry about hardcore survival so that can build their towns in one generation.
I would love decay on everything, it slows progression down and progression is the main selling point in the game and atm its too easy to progress. and higher tech items could decay less quickly.

Hey now I have mentioned it, most towns don't take long to well be complete and people start just adding to the mess or building buildings and whatever.
Would love it if it took a lot longer to do things. eg, a kiln takes an hour to set before it can be used. or it takes alot longer to make charcoal lets say like 20 mins (would give you a nice path to go down for tech, EG make a charcoal pit that makes charcoal in 10 mins etc..) I love the bell tower because of this feature, it takes ages to make not just a simple item 1 + Item 2 = product. You can have this on food recipes too, a stew my take like 20 mins to make but has a large amount of food, but popcorn takes a few seconds (like it does) to make before you can eat it again leading to future tech to able to make better tools to increase cook times, eg cooking meat on a fire may take 4 mins but cooking it in an oven could take 2.

I feel that you will find it hard with the current mechanics to increase the tech tree without changing the past tech to work with it.

Just some thoughts.

Last edited by Rebel (2018-06-08 20:59:01)

Lotus · 2018-06-08 21:11:45

I don’t think decay should be implanted on important starting items. Higher-tech stuff would be nice, keep the boredom away, but adding decay on stuff like kilns would kill the Eve population.

Rebel · 2018-06-08 21:20:36

Lotus wrote:

I don’t think decay should be implanted on important starting items. Higher-tech stuff would be nice, keep the boredom away, but adding decay on stuff like kilns would kill the Eve population.

this game is meant to be difficult and at the moment you can pretty much do everything as an eve maybe about from getting all the iron tools.

You have to have a reason to progress to the next stage, if higher tech tools break faster or last the same duration as lower tech tools whats the point? plus its more annoying have to keep going back in the tech tree.

situations where a drill would break after 20 uses so you quickly want to get a flint and steel that lasts 200, we already see this with ponds and wells, why not on other items?

Whats the point in making a better kiln if a clay one has no downsides.

Last edited by Rebel (2018-06-08 21:24:28)

Stankysteve · 2018-06-08 22:35:10

You know what you don't see anymore? Storehouses lined with excess supplies. (Now they're just single locked door rooms people hide weapons and a food stash in. A griever's dream) You know what you do see a lot of, especially nowadays, instead? Screens full of single tile crap items all over older settlements. If you're going to make more garbage, make more storage options. Its bad and only gotten worse rapidly.

You remember the arguments against artificial difficulty? That just kicking up the sliders on damage and health on enemies in games is not a rewarding change in experience? More steps and more items on the ground due to more intermediate stages... (drying corn, worms spread across two fields or more, one in use and one not, neglected seeded crops)...is not a rewarding change in experience. Added with the psychological effect of the knowledge that storage solutions will not last, and cannot be renewed long term makes it feel futile. I often suicide out of large towns that have already exhausted all the natural resources in a wide expanse of area. They're often frustrating for that reason, inevitable griefers not included.

Carts will break and trees cannot be reproduced. You could make a limited income of baskets from straw if you're careful with compost. But it's not fun. If you see a bunch of carts in a town you know that it will start sunsetting soon. No one builds a storehouse for a bunch of them anymore because what's the point? In the great words of the Nine Inch Nails and Johnny Cash, sometimes it feels like my only true legacy to descendants is, "An empire of dirt, and you can have it all..."

Rebel · 2018-06-08 23:06:16

Stankysteve wrote:

You know what you don't see anymore? Storehouses lined with excess supplies. (Now they're just single locked door rooms people hide weapons and a food stash in. A griever's dream) You know what you do see a lot of, especially nowadays, instead? Screens full of single tile crap items all over older settlements. If you're going to make more garbage, make more storage options. Its bad and only gotten worse rapidly.
You remember the arguments against artificial difficulty? That just kicking up the sliders on damage and health on enemies in games is not a rewarding change in experience? More steps and more items on the ground due to more intermediate stages... (drying corn, worms spread across two fields or more, one in use and one not, neglected seeded crops)...is not a rewarding change in experience. Added with the psychological effect of the knowledge that storage solutions will not last, and cannot be renewed long term makes it feel futile. I often suicide out of large towns that have already exhausted all the natural resources in a wide expanse of area. They're often frustrating for that reason, inevitable griefers not included.
Carts will break and trees cannot be reproduced. You could make a limited income of baskets from straw if you're careful with compost. But it's not fun. If you see a bunch of carts in a town you know that it will start sunsetting soon. No one builds a storehouse for a bunch of them anymore because what's the point? In the great words of the Nine Inch Nails and Johnny Cash, sometimes it feels like my only true legacy to descendants is, "An empire of dirt, and you can have it all..."

surely, if higher tech level has decreased decay, that means there is less mess produced those tidy towns? I mean you will never get tidy towns until people learn how to efficient crafters, garbage collection is a noble profession and many of my kids have been happy cleaning up the place most of their lives.

as for storehouses, I Have seen a few, but problem is, there is nothing to store in there, pie get eaten, carrots are not grown, berries cannot be stored and tools break too fast to think about storing them, maybe in larger towns where a blacksmith make multiple tools to store (Which I have seen and done) for future gens. but guess the main reason is its too easy for people to put all the tools to make keys into the house and then lock the door and hide the key, preventing a key being made to unlock it for at least 20 mins.

(went a bit of topic but yolo)

I personally hated the storage houses we had before, because what the hell is the point of storing food that you will never eat, if you have a net gain on food, don't grow more food, this will because more and more of an expert task when more food decay is added, and people will have to know how much food needs to be grown to feed x people.

houses should be made for closing spaces for jobs, its so annoying baking or blacksmithing and you have people fucking standing around in the way, having a house that a baker and an apprentice can lock and keep people out while they are baking/smithing spends up the task loads. if you know how to craft with from storages EG carts and baskets, you only need one tile for crafting, the smallest and most efficient bakery I have made is a 3x3, which includes a kiln, however, there was a separate Mill room where the dough was made and stored.

also, a nursey is useful, where a mother can nurse all the kids in the village (i have seen places with two nurseys) with a depot for pies for the nurse and a fire.
I am yet to see a room for cloth making. currently, rooms are not really made at all, mainly because stone walls cannot be destroyed and it's too easy to grief.

I am yet to also see, a butchery where lambs are roped into and slaughter (kinda like in the trailer), I started making one joining a bakery but never got round to finishing it. literally only needs to 1 or 2 tiles.

Would love to see residual housing for families, EG basically a small nursery and storage for your family line, would only need to be like 3x1, and you can have a key to the house and box only, there is not really a use for personal items but you kinda can keep clothes you made or spare food in there. Basically what I am saying is that I would love to see lots of small houses rather than one huge one.

And back to the rubbish, it's not hard to take broken baskets out of town, all broken things decay in time so. would like to see storage options that cant be a mess with, I used to use boxes in bakers but once you die a day later you would come back and the boxes were turned to carts. I know there are the boxes with lids now, but they can be locked so easily too.

Rebel · 2018-06-08 23:14:37

Stankysteve wrote:

Carts will break and trees cannot be reproduced. You could make a limited income of baskets from straw if you're careful with compost. But it's not fun. If you see a bunch of carts in a town you know that it will start sunsetting soon. No one builds a storehouse for a bunch of them anymore because what's the point? In the great words of the Nine Inch Nails and Johnny Cash, sometimes it feels like my only true legacy to descendants is, "An empire of dirt, and you can have it all..."

I loved being a basket maker, then i saw Jason's post about specializing I totally understood, being efficient with compost and mass producing wheat is fun and can pretty much set up baskets and flour for ages. (Mentioned before but really need a flour storage because holy shit, the number of carts and bowls of flours there were was stupid).

I did fence the area off a little and went a little out of town to do it, but everyone knew where to get baskets from and it was proper neat. it's hard to pass down the profession when there as alot of new players tho. (just FYI basically I was doing three jobs at once, flour compost and baskets, another good player did sheepy and got me dung.)

commonly you don't see people doing one job their whole life, normally if people need a tool they ask someone who knows how to make it, could be anyone.

ZneoC · 2018-06-09 02:54:01

TrustyWay wrote:

Guys, it is cool to suggest things, but putting decay to everything is... really anyoning when you repeat your task thousands times while younglings just look at you eating food. I hate resewing new clothes everytime, I'm done with it. I rather be naked than making clothes that last one real freaking human hour.
People telling me it is 60 years can shut up, it still is only 60 minutes call years. But in my life minutes fly like second. Everything I make is doom to evaporate faster than water on the ground. My work at the end didn't worth anything because my family still die liek tardish.
I do like hardcore games, I have been beta testing since years. But OLOH gameplay really try to make us bored of it. I like when it was still about interactions. Decay is just removing us free time and ask us to repeat and repeat.

I see toons of people ditching tasks as carpenter or sewer because you never stop.
I have a huge point to demonstrate you how annoying it is : we all make backpack when we start life. We lose our first minutes, even more if you are a regular player, sewing one.

What I am trying to say is that "decay is a natural part of life. It makes sense for organic materials(wood,Reed) to degrade faster than stone or metals, which is the reason those materials are highly sought after, amongst most reasons."

You wouldn't buy cloths if they rotted off you the first day, but you don't think about it when purchasing things, because you are generally assured they will last until you need to get a new one, or want to change.

The problem with the decay as of now, is it is more of a binary concept rather than a sliding scale closer-to-reality concept, where the materials used to craft items should detirmines their durability, and decay.

Thanks for reading!

YAHG · 2018-06-09 03:05:48

The clothes last 5 in game hours plus another half hour as rags.
Is 10 hours not enough for a basket?
We will be fine.. Sure some of the stuff was too fast when it first came out but
I am sure it'll get fixed if it is just numbers gone wrong.

I don't think the items have materials in any in game sense. I think they are all
just items with names like wool etc. He is just gonna have to do all the numbers
by hand unless he makes a program to flag all the items in a separate data base
and auto-generate the raws and transitions.

ZneoC · 2018-06-09 04:42:35

YAHG wrote:

The clothes last 5 in game hours plus another half hour as rags.
Is 10 hours not enough for a basket?
We will be fine.. Sure some of the stuff was too fast when it first came out but
I am sure it'll get fixed if it is just numbers gone wrong.
I don't think the items have materials in any in game sense. I think they are all
just items with names like wool etc. He is just gonna have to do all the numbers
by hand unless he makes a program to flag all the items in a separate data base
and auto-generate the raws and transitions.

I don't code in php, and I only know c#. Even at that I'm still learning. So I do not know how best to implement
A mixed material item wothout an oop-based code type(object oriented). If it was c#, then I would have a good idea.

My favourite durability mechanic EVER in any game has to be the tinker's mod for Minecraft(sorry to say it, but not sorry cuz I love it). Where you had different handles, tool-heads, bindings, etc... Which each contributes to the final product, allowing you to fine tune the equipment to their future designated task.

Out of my minimal understanding of php, I think if there is 1 tools, with 3 pieces, and all pieces have like 3
Variants, them the amount of tools the system needs to have isnt 1 with swappable parts, but every variation of that tool(1*3*3? So 9ish? Plus each tool with every part missing...).. right?

But yeah.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-06-07 06:55:19

Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#2 2018-06-07 15:05:43

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#3 2018-06-07 16:02:15

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#4 2018-06-07 16:22:29

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#5 2018-06-07 17:14:58

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#6 2018-06-07 17:17:59

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#7 2018-06-07 18:32:02

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#8 2018-06-07 18:43:45

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#9 2018-06-08 04:58:53

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#10 2018-06-08 09:26:37

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#11 2018-06-08 20:58:32

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#12 2018-06-08 21:11:45

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#13 2018-06-08 21:20:36

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#14 2018-06-08 22:35:10

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#15 2018-06-08 23:06:16

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#16 2018-06-08 23:14:37

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#17 2018-06-09 02:54:01

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#18 2018-06-09 03:05:48

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

#19 2018-06-09 04:42:35

Re: Fix Decay loopholes as they promote gimmicky play

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