More murder problem discussion

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-12 20:32:47

2laughor2cry:

The murder problem is not a simple problem to solve. Removing killing from the game won't work, because then there would be no way for villages to enforce their laws. So killing must be there. Anything I do to "strengthen" the good guys (like armor, or better weapons) will also strengthen the bad guys. Nothing worse than a bad guy in a bullet-proof vest.

Right now, anyone who commits murder is greatly hobbled, the victim has plenty of time to cry for help before dying, and it's not so hard for the good guys to get rid of the murderer. Furthermore, that murderer cannot return to your village for three whole hours.

So it's not that I'm just "ignoring the problem." I've done a lot to help you, the players solve the problem. I'm not sure what else to do, though I'm still thinking about it.

Gederian · 2018-06-12 22:16:14

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm not sure what else to do, though I'm still thinking about it.

1. Killers can be killed with tools/rocks/rope/etc while staggering.

2. Killers stagger until they starve or someone feeds them so killing requires teamwork to not die yourself.

3. Killers loose their weapons after shooting/stabbing so someone else can grab them (bow drops too). Blood on clothes/body of killer to identify.

chaosgenerally · 2018-06-13 14:14:31

jasonrohrer wrote:

2laughor2cry:
The murder problem is not a simple problem to solve. Removing killing from the game won't work, because then there would be no way for villages to enforce their laws. So killing must be there. Anything I do to "strengthen" the good guys (like armor, or better weapons) will also strengthen the bad guys. Nothing worse than a bad guy in a bullet-proof vest.
Right now, anyone who commits murder is greatly hobbled, the victim has plenty of time to cry for help before dying, and it's not so hard for the good guys to get rid of the murderer. Furthermore, that murderer cannot return to your village for three whole hours.
So it's not that I'm just "ignoring the problem." I've done a lot to help you, the players solve the problem. I'm not sure what else to do, though I'm still thinking about it.

I don't think making it more costly to murder people is particularly helpful to stop griefing. After all, griefers still simply randomly kill someone, it's basically a given that someone's game is over with little counterplay apart from 'just run away'. What you probably want is a means to counter lone wolf griefing.

With that in mind, have you considered adding medicine to the game?

For instance, herbal leaves could be another crop, that is relatively difficult to grow, and found wild very rarely. These would be used on a dying person by another player, turning them back to living. That way, a murderer would have to be careful to stab people away from medicine and help. It makes griefing more fun (strats like steal and hide the medicine become important!), but introduces counterplay for *everyone* else.

In this way, bleedout becomes a key mechanic that you can use to balance pvp. Some ideas:

- Different aged people bleed out at different rates
- Perhaps different genders bleed out at different rates (finally males have a niche)
- Different weapons would leave players with different lengths of bleed out time: a knife my give you 10s, an arrow 20s.
- Clothes/armour might make bleed out longer, or save you from entering the state completely based on a dice roll.
- You could introduce bandages which could be used on yourself to extend your bleedout time, potentially allowing you to get back to town and be saved.

What do you think? Perhaps this is worth its own thread.

Glassius · 2018-06-13 20:23:28

chaosgenerally wrote:

What do you think? Perhaps this is worth its own thread.

It has its own thread
Support the idea on Reddit

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-13 20:39:36

I cannot have killing require teamwork, because then a hermit cannot defend themselves from grief. The same goes for some other suggestion elsewhere that killing should always be mutual (murder-suicide, or duel). The good guy shouldn't have to die to defeat the bad guy. Though elders sacrificing themselves for the village is interesting, it's too far-fetched to make sense (and still doesn't help the hermit case).

The idea that killers should be killalble with non-weapons defeats the purpose of weapons. I do want you to have a plan to defend your village. I do want you to need to be prepared. I do want you to have some people acting as police or guards and settling disputes. I do want you to have rules about who can carry a weapon and who cannot.

Forced dropping of weapons (so that someone else can easily use them in defense) also achieves the same end: allowing otherwise defenseless people to magically defend themselves. I don't want you to remain defenseless. Crime is a huge and important problem for you to collectively solve in your village. I don't want to solve it for you.

The current obstacles that are put in place to hinder murderers are mostly there to deal with the realities of this kind of game. It's so easy to run away and hide. It's so hard to gather evidence. The view is so limited. Network lag is an issue. Even if you ARE prepared to defend the village, it would be nearly impossible without the concessions that I put in place (slowing the murderer down, giving the victim time to report). But neither of those concessions solves the murder problem for you. You still need to be prepared to defend the village. You still need to make decisions about which murders are justified, etc.

All that said, I do worry a great deal about the "ruined day" of the innocent murder victim. The fact that some idiot has the power to instantly kick you out of your own village is troubling.

Though "medicine," in the current fiction of a stab wound or an arrow through the chest, is kind of a stretch.

Mechanically, what would be happening here is that someone is getting "marked for death" by someone else, and then any other person is given the power to unmark them. This doesn't necessarily have to accompany the fiction of an actual wound. You could just have a red letter X painted on your forehead, and if no one helps you wash it off, you die in two minutes (or become susceptible to being murdered with a weapon in two minutes).

Note that if it only takes one other person to save you, this allows a team of two griefers to be invincible.

So, there's that problem....

And this is getting closer and closer to a fully-implemented voting or trial system. I don't really want to do that for you. I want that kind of stuff to have room to emerge on its own. Though the reality might be there's just not enough player communication bandwidth to manage this, and there never will be.

Uncle Gus · 2018-06-13 20:48:36

Please, please, please, Jason, please implement something that requires MORE THAN ONE PERSON to non-lethally disarm a griefer. I've suggested this for months, I've done it myself: https://github.com/UncleGus/OneLife.git (restrain branch) and it works. PLEASE try it.

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-13 20:51:16

Why do we want to deal with a griefer non-lethally?

Uncle Gus · 2018-06-13 20:55:04

It can be lethal, but doesn't have to be. One person smacks someone else with a stone and nothing happens. But if two people do it, then that person is incapacitated for a short time and drops what they're holding. Voila, griefer subdued. THEN, they can either kill them with a weapon (probbaly the one they dropped, if they had one) or let them recover, or keep bashing them with a stone to keep them down until they starve, or give them time to talk and argue their innocence or whatever.

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-13 21:02:10

So a pair of griefers can subdue the whole village through teamwork?

I guess the good guys would see this happening and subdue the griefers?

And the hermit remains defenseless, again...

Uncle Gus · 2018-06-13 21:10:07

You can't solve griefing one on one. By definition. Because anything available to the hermit is available to the griefer. This isn't a game meant to be played solo anyway, so why would you consider that important? The only advantage that good players have over grifers, just as the only advantage that good citizens have over criminals, is numbers. This is the ONLY thing that can be exploited to the advantage of the good players.

Spockulon · 2018-06-13 21:20:15

The problems I find prevail with how towns deal with griefers:

1) Complete inaction, based on a lack of communication. Someone tries to alert the townsfolk, but no one pays attention.

2) The townsfolk listen, but do not care or believe that "accuser". It turns into a whole "I saw Goody Proctor with the Devil" situation.

3) The griefer/murderer has a follower/supporter on the inside who uses the distraction to cause more destruction.

Glassius · 2018-06-13 21:36:28

Prevent coordinated griefing to defend hermits? Lets piss off villagers I've never saw griefing from the outside on hermit (maybe I didn't play enough?). It mostly happens in towns. Maybe because, it is very unusual to meet hermit camp. Grief on hermit can be performed almost only by hermit's kids. But what is the chance, kids will coordinate this way? Because most players do not like griefing, they will usually reveal griefing conspiracy to elders and teamwork to kill griefer.

Some of us requested for semi HP feature. This way, weapon will be superior to average tools. But still, a mob should be able to take down a single weapon-wielder. So, it will be still able to quick kill a person inside a village, but he will meet a rage of entire village. Making all tools weapons will not prohibit murderers. It will change them to be like IRL: commited in sneaky way, far from witnesses. It will be more challenge and fun, also for murderers, pretending this is some sort of Splinter Cell

Also, non lethal tool with semi HP feature will be able to defend ownership and give a small penalty. Use stomper on somebody, who steals all your bowls. It should not be lethal, it should hurt

jasonrohrer wrote:

I do want you to need to be prepared

We are. But griefers start at hiding prepared weapons. You want us to establish police? Why, when they cannot make any police investigation. IRL police usually arrives at crime scene long after cirime was commited. Without post-crime investigation, police is pointless. Investigation may be possible in this game. With dogs

Also, people are requesting to be able to carry weapon by belt just for quick defense. We would be prepared. And most funny, you would meet often mexican stand offs, with deaths of all included

jasonrohrer wrote:

I don't want you to remain defenseles

Early settlement is defensless. Every weapon crafting is sabotaged by griefer. You can not do anything. So, your "all tools a weapon" refusal is affecting more the hermit, rather than city.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But neither of those concessions solves the murder problem for you.

Throw this concessions away. This is deux ex machina. This gods intervention is putting narratives over interactivness. Give us dogs, who can track the murderer from the killed body. You will see police role very, very soon

jasonrohrer wrote:

Though "medicine," in the current fiction of a stab wound or an arrow through the chest, is kind of a stretch.

WARNING, DRASTIC CONTENT
Stab survivors. Even a sword to the eye.
Boy survives arrow in the eye
opossum survived both head and chest wounds from arrows
And finally. Not one, but two arrows to the chest. Not from bow, from crossbow. Survives.

Yet, there are a drastic events of death from less drastic-looking wounds. Like a Belarusan man, bitten in the leg vine by beaver. In such a wound you loose counscioussness in a minute. Impossible to survive, unless a wound would occur on the surgery table already. But it should not prevent us from treating wounds. Maybe randomize damage?

No medicine is the real stretch. We don't want to save every life. We just need a chance And, a failed curing attempt is more drama, then just death out of waiting.

jasonhorher wrote:

Mechanically, what would be happening here is that someone is getting "marked for death" by someone else, and then any other person is given the power to unmark them.

How? Medicine requires tools, and wounds must be treated quickly. If a murderer is attempting to heal another murder, they both get killed by villagers. Just make medicine multistep, like you have to unbox bandage to treat bleeding. And unboxed bandage, once released, will change to dirty bandage, giving infection. If you make crafting infection medicine hard and multistep, it will be impossible to do outside of village.

This is all to take care of griefer in one life. No karma included. But still, I wait for Cain's mark

Last edited by Glassius (2018-06-14 08:48:32)

Stripes251 · 2018-06-13 23:38:00

First Aid for Cuts

The proper first aid for most cuts it to apply a bandage, elevate, and pressure. If it is in the chest and punctures into your thoracic cavity you may have a sucking chest wound where air is sucked through the chest wall instead of into the lungs through the airways. Which you seal the area to help breathing in this case. A last resort is to use a tourniquet.

Last edited by Stripes251 (2018-06-13 23:50:53)

breezeknight · 2018-06-13 23:41:36

jasonrohrer wrote:

2laughor2cry:
The murder problem is not a simple problem to solve. Removing killing from the game won't work, because then there would be no way for villages to enforce their laws. So killing must be there. Anything I do to "strengthen" the good guys (like armor, or better weapons) will also strengthen the bad guys. Nothing worse than a bad guy in a bullet-proof vest.
Right now, anyone who commits murder is greatly hobbled, the victim has plenty of time to cry for help before dying, and it's not so hard for the good guys to get rid of the murderer. Furthermore, that murderer cannot return to your village for three whole hours.
So it's not that I'm just "ignoring the problem." I've done a lot to help you, the players solve the problem. I'm not sure what else to do, though I'm still thinking about it.

"crying for help ?"
what "help" ?

what is the purpose to kill the killer ?
it only serves players who kill without a second thought
it's a game for killers & not for players who want play life

i don't intend to kill in OHOL & i don't need any revenge, i find scenes revolving around murder useless in a game where lives had to be built
the one hour life shortened at the whim of another player & endangered with every new life is no fun at all & making no sense for me to even starting it again

this obsession with killing is making me sick

Gederian · 2018-06-13 23:58:26

Two random people deciding to go on a rampage is an awesome story. So is one suggesting it then getting backstabbed when the other tells someone else. Either way, it would be a much less frequent occurrence. I personally love the idea of team kill as a sort of trial by jury.

Most killers hide all weapons and crafting steps before killing making it almost impossible to respond before they kill all the women. Then you have to craft a weapon while being hunted. The killer always has the element of surprise and the upper hand.

The lone two fighters is not a problem because the honorbale one can choose to run away or fight and die. Either way, much more rare than the current killing.

Killing killers with other tools while staggering is a great method since it requires action from defenders, you can't hide everything without others noticing, and you can skip the stagger when getting vengence with non weapons.

Id be curious to know how many blood lines end because a killer gets all the women.

I'm at least happy to see this issue being considered since this is a game about family lines, not an FPS.

If death is the the likely penalty for murder than murder will be so rare that these edge cases will also be just that, rare yet epic stories.

Realcooldude · 2018-06-14 00:07:28

Voting on the family tree.

Gummyworm1270 · 2018-06-14 00:34:53

One solution could be something along the lines of a baton. It would be easier to make than a knife or bow and could possibly be strapped to your side but it's only use would be to kill someone during the death stagger. Maybe it would also take multiple hits or more than one person using it. Although unless the mechanics have changed recently it's nearly impossible to hit someone while they are running.

This is the best solution I can think of that seems to go along with Jasons vision for the game. Either way I think it is extremely broken that one person can slowly pick off an entire village over the course of a lifetime with little or no repurcussions

TrustyWay · 2018-06-14 00:39:59

People are too egoist to run away and remake new settlements, as i show, tweaking murders is even worst because griefers will grief even more easily.

Sometimes you just have to wait but nobody does and the game is looking like nothing (but not in a good way)

Mr.XIX · 2018-06-14 00:40:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

And the hermit remains defenseless, again...

I really like hermits, but to be fair...

When a few soldiers walk up to a lone farmer, they will take all the crops.

The hermit doesn't always have the tools to defend himself.

There is strength in numbers.

LHO · 2018-06-14 00:47:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why do we want to deal with a griefer non-lethally?

What's wrong with non lethal stuff?. Maybe we don't know 100% If he was the killer so we capture and question him instead. It would be "easier" to kill them but what if we turned out to be innocent, It happens more then you think. Least give us the option.

forestglade · 2018-06-14 00:51:36

Hobbling the murderer is a good track.
- Double the time that they are slower.

It just takes longer for someone behind the screen to react then it does in real life. In real life if one person stabs someone in a group, generally they're going to be tackled or attacked by someone else in the group. But on screen, first, it takes a while to realize. It's confusing on a small screen. Plus, there is only a knife or a bow/arrow that you have to hunt down from whoever has it. It takes time.

forestglade · 2018-06-14 00:53:51

Hah. Just read the other thread.

breezeknight · 2018-06-14 00:58:05

killing has to take two strikes

between those two there has to be a pause included for one killer to strike

so two strikes done immediately one after another would be only possible if two murderers would be present
& that makes already for an interesting story scenario
as a killers duo & as a protectors duo

the victim has to be given option to remove arrow after the first strike
healing should need time, 3 minutes ? 5 minutes ?
if a victim runs away after the first strike, then he gets a chance of survival & that removes the total power of the killer

medicine should shorten the time to heal
medicine should be preparable & carryable as protection
it should be usable by the victim alone
additionally medicine should be administrable by other people than the victim

there just should be more options to recover from an attack than the options & the power to attack

& we need the option of professions !

it would add structure to the game
atm, skills are chaos, lives are chaotic, no purpose, no limit, no structure, no opportunities, just some crafting & doing some jobs
also professions would make it easier for noobs to get into a life with a purpose

carrying out the profession of a doctor is fulfilling, more fulfilling than being a guard

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2018-06-14 01:00:13)

sc0rp · 2018-06-14 06:50:05

TrustyWay wrote:

People are too egoist to run away and remake new settlements, [...]
Sometimes you just have to wait but nobody does and the game is looking like nothing (but not in a good way)

You're not being fair TrustyWay. It's not being egoist. It just doesn't work. I have my own share of Eve runs. And when I spawn in town, you propose that I should do Eve run as well, only harder, because a lot of resource are used up around. That's get boring pretty quickly. And most common failure for Eve is that you don't find good spot. So you'll run for 10 minutes and then die. As a male it's even more pointless.

Going in the wood, making a bow and getting back to take revenge doesn't work either. It takes half a lifetime to find required milkweed around the town. And when you finally get back to town, you find that griefer killed everyone he could and already logged out 10 minutes before you returned. And you seem to be the single male there. What an epic story! Griefer logged out! Can you imagine? ... That's why I'm not doing this anymore. Running bush to bush for half an hour is not fun. And coming back and finding nothing is neither.

TrustyWay wrote:

as i show, tweaking murders is even worst because griefers will grief even more easily.

That's true. But other ways to grief are already there. And they need to be balanced or the game will perish.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-06-14 07:21:50)

zennyrpg · 2018-06-14 07:15:51

Patching some poor soul up doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility. You were terribly wounded, but someone rushed to you and stopped the bleeding. The person would have only a few seconds (15?) to get you stabilized. Heck, the wounded person might die of starvation in the meantime. Medical kits would have to be a sufficiently advanced technology, so villages would have to spend resources to have them on hand.

Imagine the experiences! Rushing to save your loved ones. Getting to them just in time or being too late. Someone shouts "murder" and one person grabs a weapon and another the medical kit. Imagine how grateful the person who was saved would be. Imagine the bitterness if you saved your loved one while another victim bled out.

* More interesting experiences
* Actually helps victims instead of focusing on punishment of criminals
* Something to work towards on the tech tree

Also, since these are limited items killer pairs would run out/ get apprehended while trying to heal each other. Make them not fit in backpacks and problem is reduced further.

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More murder problem discussion

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