Thoughts on new March 8th, 2018 update

Matok · 2018-03-09 17:52:40

xoomorg wrote:

Matok wrote:
We might be just running ourselves ragged on water trips by farming massive carrot farms now.
I don't understand why people build farms away from water. Just build them on the same screen as the ponds. Then there's no need for multiple water pouches (one is sufficient) and the farmer can keep an eye on both the fields and the ponds, and can easily get the water themselves without having to take their eye of the fields.

I understand why people do it.

The 'green' areas are going to be naturally where people tend to want to be, because it is also the only area that provides natural food that you can just pick up and eat. Everywhere else you can not just grab and eat what you find, so the thinking is probably "I have a better chance of surviving here because there's already food". This is further enforced by the fact that you don't need to drink water to live, so water isn't seen as a direct necessity for survival.

The truth is, it very much is.

The green areas don't have enough natural food to support you, and just got nerfed so the berries run out even quicker now. You need to grow something.

Also, the swamp trees make it pretty annoying to live there. The green areas tend to be more open. Yes, you can cut down the trees to clear the swamp, but that's only after you get steel tools.

In this case, I really recommend building on the edge of swamp areas, where water is within a single screen distance.

xoomorg · 2018-03-09 17:59:35

Matok wrote:

In this case, I really recommend building on the edge of swamp areas, where water is within a single screen distance.

That works too.. the closer to the water, the better. Every time I spawn in an established village that's in the forested biome, I work the fields long enough to build up a surplus of food (doing my part for the common good) but then will immediately start carting off soil to the water, and re-establishing the farm there. It's just too frustrating (as a farmer) to constantly be begging people to bring you water -- and if I leave to get it myself, the seed carrots are inevitably gone when I get back.

I have been thinking of these resource-networks as being like molecules built from the smaller atoms of ponds, rabbit holes, etc. Every pond should have a tiny farm next to it. Every rabbit hole should have a tiny trapping/furrier camp. Once all the "free radical" resources have been captured by these micro-establishment "molecules" then we can start combining THOSE into even more complex structures. But I think these need to be location-sensitive... the farms need to be as close to the water as possible (and yes eventually we need to chop down the wetland trees to make that more feasible, reduce dependence on berries so people don't care about being in the forest, etc.) and the trapper/furrier camps need to be next to the rabbit holes, etc.

People complain about newbies draining ponds or killing rabbit families or destroying milkweed -- so let's focus on those resource tiles! Don't build structures far away from them. Build the structures right next to them, so we can keep an eye on those vulnerable tiles!

Computer1633 · 2018-03-09 18:38:07

While I have not had a chance yet to try out the new update, from what I have read and with all the whining people are doing on the forums it seems like the update will be great! I love this game and have been looking for a game like this for a long time. I think that anything which makes the game more in depth and makes players really work to survive is amazing. This game should not be easy, that is what is great about it. I hope he does not decide to dumb it down for people. Let them whine and leave if they find the game too hard to survive in. It makes for a much better, less toxic community of players really trying to survive together. This is the point of the game exactly and I cannot wait to learn how to survive after this update!

Twinsen · 2018-03-09 18:41:46

Computer1633 wrote:

While I have not had a chance yet to try out the new update, from what I have read and with all the whining people are doing on the forums it seems like the update will be great! I love this game and have been looking for a game like this for a long time. I think that anything which makes the game more in depth and makes players really work to survive is amazing. This game should not be easy, that is what is great about it. I hope he does not decide to dumb it down for people. Let them whine and leave if they find the game too hard to survive in. It makes for a much better, less toxic community of players really trying to survive together. This is the point of the game exactly and I cannot wait to learn how to survive after this update!

Well, Jason was in Discord and someone said that he will tweak something about the food... I feel like it's just too early and not enough data to really address the issue though...

Computer1633 · 2018-03-09 18:46:24

Well if he truly feels it was tweaked incorrectly with the update then I fully support him changing it. My only hope is that he does not change it because people whined about it being too hard or whatnot. I understand more players means more money however those players are just toxic and really need not be part of our blossoming civilization. We need people not afraid to really dig in and advance as a whole. I guarantee most of the people whining about it being too hard are the same people that spawn in, rip out and eat all the carrots for fun and troll people as they starve because they think it is funny.

ameliewilde · 2018-03-09 18:55:17

OMG yes, Jason said he put the eating bonus back to 3. <3

denriguez · 2018-03-09 19:00:52

Computer1633 wrote:

Well if he truly feels it was tweaked incorrectly with the update then I fully support him changing it. My only hope is that he does not change it because people whined about it being too hard or whatnot. I understand more players means more money however those players are just toxic and really need not be part of our blossoming civilization. We need people not afraid to really dig in and advance as a whole. I guarantee most of the people whining about it being too hard are the same people that spawn in, rip out and eat all the carrots for fun and troll people as they starve because they think it is funny.

"Whiner" here. I appreciate your grandstanding and your labeling earnest players as "toxic," but I digress.

I think there are some good things about the update--carrots depleting the soil, especially, which adds an interesting (and realistic) complication to farming. But it's pretty tough to "dig in and advance as a whole" when you play for 2 hours and barely have a chance to support yourself, much less a family or a small village, because you die as a starved infant 90% of the time. I look forward to a few tweaks to bring a little more balance.

sMartins · 2018-03-09 19:03:49

Computer1633 wrote:

Well if he truly feels it was tweaked incorrectly with the update then I fully support him changing it. My only hope is that he does not change it because people whined about it being too hard or whatnot. I understand more players means more money however those players are just toxic and really need not be part of our blossoming civilization. We need people not afraid to really dig in and advance as a whole. I guarantee most of the people whining about it being too hard are the same people that spawn in, rip out and eat all the carrots for fun and troll people as they starve because they think it is funny.

Totally agree, pls Jason don't make this game easier ... keep it as it is from the last patch, it's helping a lot with people that only want to ruin everything.

Twinsen · 2018-03-09 19:04:48

Computer1633 wrote:

...I guarantee most of the people whining about it being too hard are the same people that spawn in, rip out and eat all the carrots for fun and troll people as they starve because they think it is funny...

I am not sure how you can guarantee... but at least I know that if the basic survival is already very hard that there is no time to even make knifes, I would love it so much.

Matok · 2018-03-09 19:10:46

Computer1633 wrote:

Well if he truly feels it was tweaked incorrectly with the update then I fully support him changing it. My only hope is that he does not change it because people whined about it being too hard or whatnot. I understand more players means more money however those players are just toxic and really need not be part of our blossoming civilization. We need people not afraid to really dig in and advance as a whole. I guarantee most of the people whining about it being too hard are the same people that spawn in, rip out and eat all the carrots for fun and troll people as they starve because they think it is funny.

I'd appreciate if you'd not make assumptions, especially since you claim you haven't tried it since the update.

xoomorg · 2018-03-09 19:13:42

denriguez wrote:

... it's pretty tough to "dig in and advance as a whole" when you play for 2 hours and barely have a chance to support yourself, much less a family or a small village, because you die as a starved infant 90% of the time. I look forward to a few tweaks to bring a little more balance.

With the big caveat (again) that I have not actually played since the update (busy with work) from everything I have heard and what I've been thinking, this just seems like experienced players have essentially been reduced to (somewhat of) a newbie status. And it's going to take a while for people to figure out how to build a suitably robust safety network again. But we WILL reach a point where we have sustainable farms and other settlements, and people can get back to raising babies.

I'm not sure the "balance" we need is to tweak the game.. we may just need to tweak our playing style, and rebuild that safety net.

sMartins · 2018-03-09 19:16:01

I played a lot the new patch and I can say it's much better than before, now in the game survive only who want to really play the game, who try hard .... and it's much more meaningful and fun.

Last edited by sMartins (2018-03-09 19:17:42)

Portager · 2018-03-09 19:17:37

The biggest thing that parents need to start teaching their kids how to do is composting.

xoomorg · 2018-03-09 19:21:09

Portager wrote:

The biggest thing that parents need to start teaching their kids how to do is composting.

Note: This is true in real life as well.

Twinsen · 2018-03-09 19:22:19

xoomorg wrote:

...this just seems like experienced players have essentially been reduced to (somewhat of) a newbie status. And it's going to take a while for people to figure out how to build a suitably robust safety network again. But we WILL reach a point where we have sustainable farms and other settlements, and people can get back to raising babies...

Exactly. While I am frustrated but I would prefer having more information and data before anything was done though... considered that we are going to have the Saturday trolls and Sunday newbies joining the game, I am more interested to see how badly we clueless human can damage the land.

Potjeh · 2018-03-09 19:26:27

I think new hunger wouldn't be as bad if clothing was a little easier to get. Even in fairly advanced settlements it's hard to stockpile furs because people need so many of them for everything, so I mostly wind up playing naked even though I'm trapping rabbits full time. And don't even get me started on thread.

denriguez · 2018-03-09 19:27:55

xoomorg wrote:

With the big caveat (again) that I have not actually played since the update (busy with work) from everything I have heard and what I've been thinking, this just seems like experienced players have essentially been reduced to (somewhat of) a newbie status. And it's going to take a while for people to figure out how to build a suitably robust safety network again. But we WILL reach a point where we have sustainable farms and other settlements, and people can get back to raising babies.
I'm not sure the "balance" we need is to tweak the game.. we may just need to tweak our playing style, and rebuild that safety net.

Yeah, you're probably right. The biggest frustration I've had with the update is that it effectively removed the most enjoyable and thought-provoking aspects, such as teaching and crafting for future generations, knowing you were toast in 60 minutes, at best. But those things were only possible when food was (relatively) reliable. I suppose we'll get there again--I just need patience.

Thanks for your perspective and for not making assumptions.

Matok · 2018-03-09 19:48:45

Potjeh wrote:

I think new hunger wouldn't be as bad if clothing was a little easier to get. Even in fairly advanced settlements it's hard to stockpile furs because people need so many of them for everything, so I mostly wind up playing naked even though I'm trapping rabbits full time. And don't even get me started on thread.

I've had someone nick my furs that I was stacking together to make myself some clothes and cut them up and sew them into water skins right before my eyes, even though there were many baskets of empty water skins already sitting around.

Water skins are not a priority over clothing, and should be viewed as a luxury item that just makes water gathering easier later. You only make them when you have a surplus of fur and thread. Use clay for bowls and move water with that first. From scratch, a clay bowl is easier tech to reach than a water skin. You need clay and reeds (to build the kiln), a hatchet for firewood, and need to figure out how to build a fire to make clay bows. You need milkweed, snares (even more milkweed), a hatchet for firewood, and know how to build a fire (to cook the rabbit to get the bone needle) to make water skins. The milkweed requirement means water skins are the harder item to make, even if you already have a bone needle laying around that someone else made.

Build farms closer to ponds so the water trip doesn't take long with a bowl to offset the fact you can only carry one at a time.

xoomorg · 2018-03-09 20:04:33

Matok wrote:

Build farms closer to ponds so the water trip doesn't take long with a bowl to offset the fact you can only carry one at a time.

Yes. This.

Also: sorry for any water skins I've used for these purposes. I'm pretty dedicated to the carrot farming role, and honestly don't know a lot about the fur/clothing tech tree. I didn't realize water skins were so expensive to make, relative to clay bowls. I got into the habit of using water skins because they could be stacked, but since I've moved to a "put the farm directly next to the water ponds" model, I never need more than one water carrying device anyway -- so a single clay bowl works just as well as a single water skin.

Matok · 2018-03-09 20:15:38

xoomorg wrote:

Matok wrote:
Build farms closer to ponds so the water trip doesn't take long with a bowl to offset the fact you can only carry one at a time.
Yes. This.
Also: sorry for any water skins I've used for these purposes. I'm pretty dedicated to the carrot farming role, and honestly don't know a lot about the fur/clothing tech tree. I didn't realize water skins were so expensive to make, relative to clay bowls. I got into the habit of using water skins because they could be stacked, but since I've moved to a "put the farm directly next to the water ponds" model, I never need more than one water carrying device anyway -- so a single clay bowl works just as well as a single water skin.

I think that they seem like a necessity because you can carry 3 at once in a basket, but the bowl you can only carry one at a time. You want to save time on watering trips, so obviously filling up 3 skins is better than 1 bowl per trip, right?

However, if you're naked, you require 3 times as much food, which means you have to maintain (and water) 3 times as many plots, so you really don't gain anything using water skins. You're going to go out to find water just as often if you are fully clothed carrying bowls vs naked carrying a basket of water skins. And actually, you have to spend more time filling 3 water skins than filling 1 bowl, so if you really want to nitpick it, I bet you that the bowls actually end up being more efficient because you find 1 pond, fill, and return, vs find a pond, set down basket, get empty skin, fill skin, put in basket, pick up basket, find next pond, etc etc etc.

To be honest, it's really quite brilliant. The 'obvious' thing to do is actually not the best thing to do. This has been true throughout actual history as well, where many people spend their lives working really hard for very small returns when there's a less obvious, much better way. And people tend to continue doing things the hard way because it's what they know.

It's one of the things I really like about the game.

xoomorg · 2018-03-09 20:23:01

So I know this will drive the Milkweed People up a wall... but nearly every time I've played the game, I stay naked the entire time and don't bother with a fire. Why? Because with one of my tiny seven-plot carrot farms (which I can usually build as a new Eve pretty quickly unless I spawn in a truly terrible spot) I very quickly was producing so many surplus carrots that I ran out of baskets. Food was never a concern, so I really didn't care that I was getting hungry 3x as fast. If I happened to come across clothes I'd put them on, but all that would do is make it so I was generating carrots even faster, and I'd spend a lot of time placing them one-by-one further and further out from my farm. Or... I hate to admit this... I'd just eat them even if I was full, to make them go away.

I recognize the long-term importance of clothes, and the benefit they bring. It just wasn't my thing, and given the particular way I played, clothes weren't really helpful at all.

** EDIT: I used the past tense wrt "the particular way I played" not because I've stopped playing, but because with composting and soil exhaustion being a thing, I expect my playing style will need to change.

Last edited by xoomorg (2018-03-09 20:25:04)

Laura · 2018-03-09 20:27:44

Cool - we have ice and snow now and ... reborn with NO mom around.
I start the game 30 times!!!
And:
- no mom
- mom doesn´t move
- mom run away
- mom take me and starve
- i am in a town and everyone else starve bc of no Food

yeah. Amazing this shit update. I will not Play this game in a time ...
It was so much fun and i told all my friends about it and now ...

Waste of fun and time

xoomorg · 2018-03-09 20:31:25

Oh Laura, I'm sad to hear that. I am planning to get back to playing this weekend, and am nervous about what I'll find. I really hope this increase in difficulty is a temporary thing -- meaning that we will (collectively) overcome it and figure out how to build sustainable settlements again, not that the changes will be reversed.

To be entirely honest, the seven-plot-farm strategy I had been using had almost become TOO easy. I can understand why Jason would want the changes he made.. and that (given the "everything runs out" philosophy) this increase in difficulty was probably always the plan. The game is about the struggle, not about playing in "Creative Mode" (ala Minecraft) and just building cool villages.

I think (hope) we can get things back to how they were, with time. Please don't give up!

Portager · 2018-03-09 20:33:59

Once again, this is another reason why I would love for someone to setup a sandbox server with our food requirements nerfed (as in, we do not need much food to survive). We could work on developing new farming techniques there and then migrate these techniques out onto the main servers in due course.

Anyone willing to set this up. I am sure if the forum members worked together to figure out the composting mechanics and new tribal roles, we could make this update fun and productive.

Last edited by Portager (2018-03-09 20:34:32)

TLyon · 2018-03-09 20:35:00

Laura wrote:

Cool - we have ice and snow now and ... reborn with NO mom around.
I start the game 30 times!!!
And:
- no mom
- mom doesn´t move
- mom run away
- mom take me and starve
- i am in a town and everyone else starve bc of no Food
yeah. Amazing this shit update. I will not Play this game in a time ...
It was so much fun and i told all my friends about it and now ...
Waste of fun and time

Maybe you should stick around a little bit longer, in case Jason changes some things back or we are able to figure out a way to overcome these hard times.

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