Testing the tutorial on my wife

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-29 06:17:55

Live play-testing is really important!

It's too bad that I hardly ever get to do it, given that I work from home and am surrounded by people who already know all about my game.

I had my wife, who hasn't played the game more than once in the distant past, play the tutorial while I sat there silently. Most of it went pretty well.

But the end challenge, where I ask the player to craft a hatchet with no other guidance (besides the normal crafting hints) was a disaster.

Oh man! How many players will get stuck here and never get to play the game? Should I make the tutorial optional? Or get rid of this end challenge? But if new players cannot figure out how to craft basic things in a controlled setting, how the heck are they going to figure anything out in the main game? Yeah, they learn from their parents, but....

When I'm having this conversation with myself, it's a sign that something's wrong with the game. Should probably fix that.

How the heck is someone supposed to figure out how to craft a hatchet inside the game, even if they know that they want to do it? Page through 46 hints for the sharp stone? Tied short shaft? What's that?

And this problem is only going to get worse as the crafting tree is fleshed out. I can imagine the sharp stone being used in 100s of recipes eventually. CTRL-TAB indeed.

There needs to be some way to hack your way through that information.

So I added a filter function. Typing "/hatchet" now trims down the crafting hints to only those that are somehow relevant if you're trying to make a hatchet. In the case of the sharp stone, this narrows it down to 4 recipes instead of 46.

What you're currently trying to make is displayed under the crafting hints to remind you that a filter is in place. Typing "/" clears the filter. As with the naming functions, this all happens through the chat interface, though nothing is actually "said" on the server (it's all client-side).

Testing this on my wife tomorrow....

YAHG · 2018-06-29 06:30:44

Have you ever played Factorio?
The train tutorial in that game is fucking gold..

If you never did it is sets up a mini game that has little puzzles to make the trains go that use the game engine to run.
You can probably program the game to auto-create these tutorials based on the build chains (like how onetech does it).
You can have the game build a small map with everything you need to do the crafting inside it on the floor and have the lil home marker point to the next object.
People just need to be walked through things once and they will usually get it.
Things like forging would be a little more complicated to program but you could re-spawn more fuel or just restart the tutorial if they messed up.

Go! Bwah! · 2018-06-29 06:54:50

I don't want to go trying to figure out what maple branches or milkweed look like with the food chime nagging me. I want maple branches and milkweed to glow faintly, thread and long shafts and rocks to glow moderately, short shafts and sharp stones and rope to glow brightly.

InSpace · 2018-06-29 07:08:33

+1 YAHG, factorio tutorials are excellent!

JonySky · 2018-06-29 07:38:11

+1 YAHG, I also believe that the factorial tutorials are incredible

Tane · 2018-06-29 10:46:33

One of the big attractions of the game was being taught by other players.
Its something that was lost until recently, not long after the farm updates players started teaching each other again. A short tutorial would be nice, but don't give everything away.
Half the challenge is figuring out how to make the harder stuff, like those goddamn pork tacos.

Morti · 2018-06-29 11:33:45

Make it fun for them to build things, instead of a tutorial, give people puzzles to solve. Start them off in a preset area, with x, y and z resources, and have them build something that will save their lives in an amount of time set by their food meter. You can teach all sorts of things that way, like give them just enough time, but only if they craft clothes first or stand on a warm patch of desert to extend the time their food meter pips last. And have the puzzles easy to repeat, so when they get stuck, they can just try again easily. You don't have to overwhelm them either, you can have only the amount of items in the area, say, on an island, that will be enough to make the thing they need to live for 5 minutes until rescued, or, until you pop a fake kid into their lives and say "YOU DID IT! YOU SURVIVED LONG ENOUGH TO ENSURE YOUR FAMILY LINE CARRIES ON." and then fade back to the Tutorial/Puzzle selection and offer the next challenge. I'm sure people who already know the game would have fun doing something like that, just to see what it's like. Also the people who make videos will record themselves going through the Puzzle Challenges, and their viewers will learn the recipes as they watch.

You could go so far as to have a 55 minute puzzle where the player's mother has just passed away and they have 55 years to progress all the way up to iron tools to bury her and if they mark the grave with MOTHER than they get some kind of sappy musical ending that'll really tug at their heartstrings. Another lifelong challenge could be to make a saddle for a horse and ride off into the sunset. Or, mine gold and make a crown to become ruler of your kingdom. Each one could have some kind of story text for victory, along with a piece of music you've composed especially for that challenge.

You could have a lot of fun with new puzzles each week, and people will surely make Youtube videos, and streams on Twitch, of themselves completing the puzzles. People will come back each week, even if it's just to see what new puzzle there is to solve.

Start simple though, and have each puzzle build off the previous one in some way or another.

I already love the "work with what the game gives you" situations that exist in ever normal life. I think people would really enjoy that, condensed into a series of challenges.

DrButtCheeks · 2018-06-29 12:03:58

Tane wrote:

One of the big attractions of the game was being taught by other players.

What if there was a system where a player could request one on one help after dying. They could spawn in a tutorial town with an experienced player for 15 mins, and get guided help. Players could opt in as mentors before being reborn if they wish.

The player still has to try at least once before getting help, and a 15 min time limit would keep them from getting too overwhelmed or too cozy.

Also the wiki needs to get sorted, Morti why don't you funnel your text-wall energy there?

TheRedBug · 2018-06-29 12:57:13

Factorio is an excellent game

The only thing it miss is some fresh stew, other than that this game is 10/10

Angel Carrillo · 2018-06-29 13:13:38

jasonrohrer wrote:

Live play-testing is really important!
It's too bad that I hardly ever get to do it, given that I work from home and am surrounded by people who already know all about my game.
I had my wife, who hasn't played the game more than once in the distant past, play the tutorial while I sat there silently. Most of it went pretty well.
But the end challenge, where I ask the player to craft a hatchet with no other guidance (besides the normal crafting hints) was a disaster.
Oh man! How many players will get stuck here and never get to play the game? Should I make the tutorial optional? Or get rid of this end challenge? But if new players cannot figure out how to craft basic things in a controlled setting, how the heck are they going to figure anything out in the main game? Yeah, they learn from their parents, but....
When I'm having this conversation with myself, it's a sign that something's wrong with the game. Should probably fix that.
How the heck is someone supposed to figure out how to craft a hatchet inside the game, even if they know that they want to do it? Page through 46 hints for the sharp stone? Tied short shaft? What's that?
And this problem is only going to get worse as the crafting tree is fleshed out. I can imagine the sharp stone being used in 100s of recipes eventually. CTRL-TAB indeed.

There needs to be some way to hack your way through that information.
So I added a filter function. Typing "/hatchet" now trims down the crafting hints to only those that are somehow relevant if you're trying to make a hatchet. In the case of the sharp stone, this narrows it down to 4 recipes instead of 46.
What you're currently trying to make is displayed under the crafting hints to remind you that a filter is in place. Typing "/" clears the filter. As with the naming functions, this all happens through the chat interface, though nothing is actually "said" on the server (it's all client-side).
Testing this on my wife tomorrow....

The searching for the hints for the components you need in a tool without actually having the items, was my biggest peeve. You simply couldn't back then! Thanks for adding in the filter.

Kinrany · 2018-06-29 15:03:57

I guess the problem here is that learning to craft stuff is pure memorization. You have to either remember the whole tech tree (which isn't even a tree) below the item you want to build, or constantly reference some diagram, or mindlessly follow someone else's instructions.

pein · 2018-06-29 15:22:03

hardcore puzzle: make enough compost for 287 berry bushes while 50 players eat berry and dont work, and eat carrots anytime you leave the screen

second: make an axe while 10 people make stew on a starter camp

third: plant milkweed and create 4 buckets and a cart while people try to shoot you

aowen · 2018-06-29 16:24:47

jasonrohrer wrote:

So I added a filter function. Typing "/hatchet" now trims down the crafting hints to only those that are somehow relevant if you're trying to make a hatchet. In the case of the sharp stone, this narrows it down to 4 recipes instead of 46.
What you're currently trying to make is displayed under the crafting hints to remind you that a filter is in place. Typing "/" clears the filter. As with the naming functions, this all happens through the chat interface, though nothing is actually "said" on the server (it's all client-side).

How does this work if the player is a toddler? Since you can only type a few letters at that age, it's not currently possible to write "/fire bow drill".

Possible resolution: you can write as many characters you want in the client, but only the first X get broadcasted to other clients, if it's not a filter command.

ryanb · 2018-06-29 20:02:57

aowen wrote:

Possible resolution: you can write as many characters you want in the client, but only the first X get broadcasted to other clients, if it's not a filter command.

It is important that the client shows the limit so they don't write something only to have it truncated. You could check if it starts with a "/" then allow any number of characters.

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-29 22:53:25

Yes, toddlers are limited in what they can filter too.

Yet another advantage to getting older.

Though all the filtering happens client-side, so this is pretty easy to "fix" with a mod, making it kinda weak sauce. Hmm... I may change it later.

The idea with the tutorial is NOT to replace player-teaching in the game. It's about teaching people the controls, mostly.

jasonrohrer · 2018-06-29 23:06:55

Okay, fixed it so that everyone, regardless of age, can type filters that are 25 characters max. More that that tends to overflow the filter display, so I don't want elders typing 60-character filters.

Christoffer · 2018-06-29 23:37:19

I may be wrong, but to me the filter sounds like a patch rather than a good solution. How are inexperienced players supposed to know the names of the tools further up in the tech tree? And experienced players, do they need it?

On a mobile device there is no tab key, so we knew we had to do something differently anyway. We ended up with two different views of hints: Use and Create. The first one is what you have in the original game: given one item, you are shown all ways you can use it one step. The second, Create, shows how to make the item, also one step (at a time).

To take hatchet as the example, Create shows that a tied shaft plus a sharp stone produces the hatchet. Then the user can get hints for those and see how to make the tied shaft from a rope and a short shaft, or how to make a sharp stone from a stone and a big rock. And so on, recursively.

I think we were inspired by ryanb’s system (which is awesome, btw) but we wanted something less OP, which didn’t give the whole tech tree away at once.

If you’re interested I can make some screenshots to explain it better. Let me know.

hihibanana · 2018-06-30 00:59:54

I think having the hatchet part be guided would be fine. Someone can figure out the unguided section with their parents.

Last edited by hihibanana (2018-06-30 01:00:16)

Turnipseed · 2018-06-30 01:54:49

I really wanna play the tutorial. Will i get a chance to, or is this only for new purchases?

LaughAtlantis · 2018-07-01 00:11:29

I played the tutorial a couple times. I'm relatively new to the game but really enjoying it. I think the /hatchet thing is minimally useful. If you don't know what's needed for a hatchet, it doesn't really guide you in a meaningful way (that I could figure out) toward what you should be doing to create a hatchet. I was holding a basket when I typed in /hatchet... and it told me there were no uses for a basket in creating a hatchet. Okay. But once I'd built a hatchet, it never figured out that I had done the task and didn't need the help anymore. So... I feel like it needs fine-tuning. There are players who will need more help, and those who will need or want less. How can you accommodate the players who need more guidance in a tutorial... so that those who want less can turn it off and get on with playing the game and figuring it out?

LaughAtlantis · 2018-07-01 00:18:59

I also would say - there's some super basic stuff in the tutorial that's helpful, but also not. So - what WOULD be helpful? Have a Basics tutorial (this one) but also a few more advanced tutorials. Smithing, farming, cooking, animals. Because everyone has to do these things - but doing them while caring for kids AND teaching newbs is sometimes hard... so a tutorial that did some of the work would be a boon.

LaughAtlantis · 2018-07-01 02:17:10

Ooh - another thing. There oughta be a section in the basic tutorial on child-rearing. Because some babies die because people don't realize they have to feed their kids.

pein · 2018-07-01 06:29:59

long straight shafts are for the tools, carts and fences, im disappointed in you jason, you made me do it, you made me to use hatchet on it!

also with my slow load i ended up on 3 bars before my screen loaded in, a perfect tile on starting point would be better, cause some might starve before load

Nopik · 2018-07-01 07:21:15

LaughAtlantis: the goal of the tutorial was not to make a hatchet. It was to light the torch.

You have to make the hatchet, use it to make kindling out of a branch, put the kindling on the hot coals, light a firebrand, and use the firebrand on the torch.

Once the torch is lit, the task is complete, and you are told that you will play the regular game after you die, which will happen faster if you use the rattlesnake room that has been provided.

LaughAtlantis · 2018-07-01 08:02:46

Nopik wrote:

LaughAtlantis: the goal of the tutorial was not to make a hatchet. It was to light the torch.
You have to make the hatchet, use it to make kindling out of a branch, put the kindling on the hot coals, light a firebrand, and use the firebrand on the torch.
Once the torch is lit, the task is complete, and you are told that you will play the regular game after you die, which will happen faster if you use the rattlesnake room that has been provided.

I understand that. However, if you type in "/hatchet" and then make the hatchet, the bottom right still displays that you are working on making the hatchet until you finish the tutorial. You can be in the pit of rattlesnakes and the hatchet hints are still there. I'm unsure if you have to type something else in order to get the hints to change - or what needs to occur. But currently, they don't go away. That's counterintuitive. Once the thing you asked for guidance on has been achieved, you no longer need the guidance. It should disappear on its own.

ETA: I redid the tutorial again. Apparently, you are supposed to press / and enter when you want to get back to the unfiltered list but I breezed past that all three previous times. I will say: A) The list never felt particularly intuitive in its filtration, in that I had to grab random things and hope they'd help me make a hatchet. (much harder in game when there's more stuff) B) Why doesn't /hatchet just tell me how to make a hatchet, or something similar. Crafting will become more complex as the tech tree gets bigger and you don't already know how to make the thing you want to make. Plus, people get stroppy about teaching in game.

I guess what I'm saying its: The tutorial seems to overexplain some intuitive things (walking, for example), and underexplain some difficult things. It would be nice to see that balanced out.

Last edited by LaughAtlantis (2018-07-01 22:06:17)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-06-29 06:17:55

Testing the tutorial on my wife

#2 2018-06-29 06:30:44

Re: Testing the tutorial on my wife

#3 2018-06-29 06:54:50

Re: Testing the tutorial on my wife

#4 2018-06-29 07:08:33

Re: Testing the tutorial on my wife

#5 2018-06-29 07:38:11

Re: Testing the tutorial on my wife

#6 2018-06-29 10:46:33

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#7 2018-06-29 11:33:45

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#8 2018-06-29 12:03:58

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#9 2018-06-29 12:57:13

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#10 2018-06-29 13:13:38

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#11 2018-06-29 15:03:57

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#12 2018-06-29 15:22:03

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#13 2018-06-29 16:24:47

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#14 2018-06-29 20:02:57

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#15 2018-06-29 22:53:25

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#16 2018-06-29 23:06:55

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#17 2018-06-29 23:37:19

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#18 2018-06-30 00:59:54

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#19 2018-06-30 01:54:49

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#20 2018-07-01 00:11:29

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