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PastaFasta55

Member

Registered: 2018-03-07

Posts: 10

THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Previously before the update we calculated the 4:3 ratio.
Now each seeding carrot plot produces twice as many seeds and only takes a total of 9 minutes to develop from wet plot.
So what's the optimal strat now? Let's calculate it!

Base assumptions:
(data taken from here.)
wet planet carrots + 2 mins = carrot sprouts
carrot sprouts + 2 mins = carrot row
carrot row + 5 mins = seeding carrots

Seeds per minute for a seed dedicated plot:
Number of seeds per plot = 5 * 2 = 10 seeds
Time till seeding = 2 + 2 + 5 = 9 mins
10 seeds / 9 mins = 1.1111... seeds/min

Seeds (consumed) per minute for a carrot dedicated plot:
Seeds per plot = 1
Time till ripe = 2 + 2 is 4 mins
1 seed / 4 mins = 0.25 seeds/min

Carrot plots per seed plot:
Seed plot = 1.111...s/min
Carrot plot = 0.25s/min
1.111... / 2.5 = 4.444... plots

Discussion:
So one dedicated seed plot is capable of supporting just over four plots.
Round that down and we get a 4:1 ratio which gives some extra seeds every so often.
This ratio gives us a new rule:
5 plot long rows, leave last plot for seeds.
I haven't thought of a good slogan for noobs. But the rule itself is more appealing than the last one, since some noobs by themselves follow the leave last plot rule. All we need to integrate is making sure there is only five plot long rows.

Last edited by PastaFasta55 (2018-03-11 14:12:42)

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Optimal farming ratios and production rates spreadsheet

lesslucid

Member

Registered: 2018-03-07

Posts: 51

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Doesn't this rely on having a good source of fresh soil, though? Either compost or a soil pit?

If there isn't soil around, wouldn't it be better to harvest all carrots and replant from wild seeds?

Dogamai

Member

Registered: 2018-03-11

Posts: 23

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

I just started making all my farms in the grasslands where the wild seeds are. no more soil destroyed. as long as people dont savage the wild carrots, but most people dont have a sharp stone handy.  JUST MAKE SURE YOU HARVEST.

I found i can easily sustain on 3-4 plots with some clothes on.  Maybe 5 without.    Makes it easy to setup a one man Milkweed farm, and if you have rabbit supply, you become a tailor.

Potjeh

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 469

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

I think you'd want to grow wheat for pies anyway, so composting should be happening anyway. With 4 plots of harvested carrots you can make a lot of pie, it's probably more optimal to not plant any more carrots than that and just add enough wheat to use them all in pies. Dunno what would be good field ratios there, though, anyone got data on wheat and gooseberry bushes growth times? We could probably calculate an optimal closed circuit farm (well, except for water).

Dogamai

Member

Registered: 2018-03-11

Posts: 23

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

thats where those wells are gonna come in handy

dongriffen

Member

Registered: 2018-03-07

Posts: 13

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Wait...hang on. I really enjoyed your post until I realized that it is kind of useless (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

Your "efficiency" of seeding carrot plots is based on time when it should be based purely on numerical output. This is because if we follow your five plot long rule then we will end up with four harvested carrot plots and one seeding plot that is still in the seeding process.

Now, if your rule were to work we would need to already have one seeding carrot plot harvested in advance. Then you could plant all 5 plots and continue replanting the carrot plots while the seeding plot grows. That's the only way this would be beneficial. But you would need a full set of 10 (or however many) seeds to start with.

ned

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 72

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Wait...hang on. I really enjoyed your post until I realized that it is kind of useless (I think, correct me if I'm correct.

Every farm requires an initial investment of some amount of seeds and at least 9 minutes. Maybe you could just start out with 3 plots, leave 2 for growing.

It'd be interesting to see how many naked people can be fed with ~40 carrots per minute.

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Well buenos-ding-dong-doodly-dias!

Tebe

Member

Registered: 2018-03-03

Posts: 65

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Wait...hang on. I really enjoyed your post until I realized that it is kind of useless (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).

Your "efficiency" of seeding carrot plots is based on time when it should be based purely on numerical output. This is because if we follow your five plot long rule then we will end up with four harvested carrot plots and one seeding plot that is still in the seeding process.

Now, if your rule were to work we would need to already have one seeding carrot plot harvested in advance. Then you could plant all 5 plots and continue replanting the carrot plots while the seeding plot grows. That's the only way this would be beneficial. But you would need a full set of 10 (or however many) seeds to start with.

It's going to take some time for sure to get this working - The big question is how many berry bushes to keep sustainable compost per 4:1 row? One bush per three plots, One epoch per re-berrying, you're going to need to plant quite a few berry bushes with a rule that the pop always leave four per bush to compost. I think you have to just figure this out as you go. Each time you pull a bowl of berries, you should be planting a new bush up until a certain cap - because you ain't gonna see those berries again in your life.

Also, keep in mind that 4:1 will also give you a surplus of seeds, considering each domestic seed can plant 2 plots. So you'll be harvesting seed as well as food.

With a combo of wild carrots you should be able to get this operational in a lifetime.

I got tired of running water at some of the burgeoning camps and set off to find a more ideal position. I found an incredible spot. 9 immediate ponds, I mean immediate - And right on the boundary of fertile tree-rich grassland-forest. Some wise loner had set up an adorable starter farm of two plots and I was happy to spend the rest of my life working this micro-farm and building it up a bit at a time. I hope it turns into something - It's not every lifetime you come across such an incredible position for a camp.

Last edited by Tebe (2018-03-11 18:35:29)

jord1990

Moderator

Registered: 2018-03-03

Posts: 186

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

I also use a 4:1 ratio, however I rotate my seeding patch. since you can plant 10 seeds from each seed harvest I harvest the seeding plot before it seeds once before letting it seed the next time. that way you have twice as to collect compost for new soil. It's small and pretty efficient, the one downside is that you'd have to explain it to the new farmer.

Oh

Member

Registered: 2018-03-11

Posts: 6

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

I'm new to the game and I'm not sure I really understand this whole thing, I thought you just planted and harvested whenever, obviously I was wrong. Could someone please explain exactly what the original post means. Thank you.

asterlea

Member

Registered: 2018-03-01

Posts: 55

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

When you plant carrot seeds they will grow into carrots after a set amount of time. If you harvest them then you will then have carrots to eat (obvioiusly). However, if you don't pick them and let them stay in the earth for longer, they will eventually grow into flowers which you can pick to get carrot seeds from, but not carrots to eat. If they go to seed they will also use up the fertile soil they were growing in, so you have to replenish it with either more fertile soil you find in the wild, or by making compost.

This post is about figuring out how many carrots you need to let grow until they become seeds in order to keep growing carrots that you can eat without having rows lie empty because you don't have any more seeds to replant after you pick the carrots at the eating stage. Also, so that you don't let too many go to seed and use up a lot of fertile soil you didn't need to.

Hope I explained that okay!

Commoners

Member

Registered: 2018-03-10

Posts: 14

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Going monoculture with carrots isn't the best thing to do. Three carrot patches + 1 wheat + 1 gooseberry bush allows you to make lots of compost, and then you can use excess compost to plant milkweed. Making milkweed means you'll be putting everyone in clothes, which means you don't need five carrot patches per person to keep a colony going.

shoukanjuu

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 48

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Okay, here's what I worked out…you need two baskets of (domestic) seeds for every 5 rows (with 1 fixed row dedicated to seeding). To start, you would need 13 seeds (6.5 seed heads—or, put another way, 5 seeds to plant with an 8-seed surplus), and if all the plantings remain in sync, you will never have a surplus of more than 11 seeds, or 5.5 seed heads (thus two baskets). Every 36 years the baskets will be completely emptied (with the seed row flowering the year after that).

If you want to stockpile extra seeds, or generate extra seeds for starting a new set of rows, you'll have to let an extra row go to seed, but otherwise, as long as you have your 2-basket surplus of seeds full at some point, you should never run out of seeds for replanting the 4 harvest rows.

If the 4 harvesting rows are in sync, you'll need 7 empty baskets to contain them, so a good layout might be, 1 seed row, 2 baskets for seed, and 4 harvest rows, with a row of 7 baskets below (and maybe a row of 7 baskets above).

But…I'd actually suggest having the 4 harvesting rows staggered, 1 per year. That way, you only need 10 seeds (5 seed heads) to start, and you'd have room in the two seed baskets for an extra seed head.

shoukanjuu

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 48

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

In trying to work out the needed rate of composting…do we know, what rate do domestic gooseberries replenish? Do they replenish one at a time, or all at once? I read somewhere that it takes an epoch for a bush to fully replenish, so, assuming that they come back at a rate of 10 years per berry…

If my understanding of wheat growth and replanting are correct, you would need a minimum 1 row of wheat for every 3 rows of seeding carrots, for a new compost pile every 6 minutes. So, if domestic berry regrowth is 10 minutes (still not sure about that), you would need 7 (6&2/3, really) berry bushes to support 3 rows of seeding carrots.

How much water would this take? My understanding is that ponds refill every 5 years. I believe this is just ONE increment of water? If so…it would take 20 ponds to support 12 harvesting rows of carrots, 3 seeding rows, 1 row of wheat, and 7 berry bushes (with all their berries going into a bowl every time they reach 4 berries, not waiting for 6).

This is based on the understanding that domesticated berry bushes replenish 1 additional berry every 10 years, that wheat can be harvested and replanted every 6 years, and that ponds replenish 1 portion of water every 5 years. If I am mistaken about any of that, then…edify me, please.

Commoners

Member

Registered: 2018-03-10

Posts: 14

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

In trying to work out the needed rate of composting…do we know, what rate do domestic gooseberries replenish? Do they replenish one at a time, or all at once? I read somewhere that it takes an epoch for a bush to fully replenish, so, assuming that they come back at a rate of 10 years per berry…

If my understanding of wheat growth and replanting are correct, you would need a minimum 1 row of wheat for every 3 rows of seeding carrots, for a new compost pile every 6 minutes. So, if domestic berry regrowth is 10 minutes (still not sure about that), you would need 7 (6&2/3, really) berry bushes to support 3 rows of seeding carrots.

How much water would this take? My understanding is that ponds refill every 5 years. I believe this is just ONE increment of water? If so…it would take 20 ponds to support 12 harvesting rows of carrots, 3 seeding rows, 1 row of wheat, and 7 berry bushes (with all their berries going into a bowl every time they reach 4 berries, not waiting for 6).

This is based on the understanding that domesticated berry bushes replenish 1 additional berry every 10 years, that wheat can be harvested and replanted every 6 years, and that ponds replenish 1 portion of water every 5 years. If I am mistaken about any of that, then…edify me, please.

Domestic gooseberry bushes replenish all at once one hour after being depleted and then watered. They aren't efficient for feeding people with at all, but they are super good for making compost. As long as people don't let them sit and die they become a long lasting investment.

Water is a logistical funnel point that will determine how many people can survive in an area. It's why clothing is so incredibly important so that people need less food, and therefore less water.

Last edited by Commoners (2018-03-12 00:26:34)

shoukanjuu

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 48

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Oh, all at once, then? Do wild gooseberry bushes also replenish all at once, or incrementally?

Commoners

Member

Registered: 2018-03-10

Posts: 14

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Oh, all at once, then? Do wild gooseberry bushes also replenish all at once, or incrementally?

Wild gooseberries replenish one at a time, don't know the exact timing on it though.

Uncle Gus

Moderator

Registered: 2018-02-28

Posts: 567

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Ten minutes

A disclaimer: this website is still under development, so at the time of writing this, it looks like the bush replenishes fully, but don't be fooled.

Last edited by Uncle Gus (2018-03-12 01:06:41)

shoukanjuu

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 48

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Hmm. Taking the Food Study into account, if you had a SINGLE seed row with just FOUR harvest rows, you'd need NINE rows of wheat to make them all into pies (minus carrots for composting). But, you'd need 33 domestic gooseberry bushes, and 26 ponds. You'd be generating 144 food a minute in carrot pies, vs 120 food a minute with 12 harvest rows of raw carrots.

shoukanjuu

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 48

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Okay, in the interest of new Food Study approaches to farming carrots, I wanted to know what the rotation would be for a 2 row carrot farm. How often do you need to let a row go to seed, and how do you know when that is, in a reliable way that is easy to communicate? Well, here's my latest attempt…

Two rows, two baskets for seeds. Whenever you are down to just 4 seeds (or 2 full seed heads), don't harvest the next row that matures. This way, you will never run out of seeds, and your surplus of seeds will never exceed 12 (or 6 full seed heads, or 2 baskets full).

There are a couple hitches to this… One…how can you tell if a seed head has 2 or just 1 seed left in it? Especially when it's in a basket? Two…because there isn't a dedicated seed row, the row that needs to be left to seed isn't always the same, and while one row is left to seed, the other row will still need to be harvested, meaing you have to keep track of which was which.

So…looking for a better method.

shoukanjuu

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 48

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Okay, I think I have it!

In this scheme, you have 2 rows of tilled soil, 2 baskets for unused seed heads, and 1 empty space for partially used seed heads.

One of the rows will always be harvested, no matter what.

The other row will be harvested as long as there is one full basket of seed heads (6 seeds).

Important: a partially used seed head does not go into the baskets—it goes in the empty spot.

Using this method, you will never have less than 1 seed (once you're past the startup period), or more than 13 seeds (two full baskets, and a half-used seed head in the empty spot). You can start using this method without any downtime if you have just 4 seeds. You will only need to replace the soil for the seed row 2-3 times per epoch.

shoukanjuu

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 48

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Okay, wrapping up…to keep your 2-row carrot farm in a sustainable carrot pie buissness, you'd need just 3 wheat plants, 9 domestic gooseberry bushes, and 9 ponds (or wells, which—if I'm not mistaken—have the same replenishment rate as ponds). Plus, you'll generate an average of 1 excess straw every 3 years.

Matok

Member

Registered: 2018-03-04

Posts: 66

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

A life of raw veggies only is always going to be really rough. There just isn't much nutrition there. Add no clothing and it becomes the disaster that you often see today, where small civs that suddenly get a half dozen naked kids suddenly collapses.

The food resource balance is really fragile, and likely always will be.

We can ease the pain by focusing on proper temperature first. Clothing is still quite lacking, and many players are getting stuck in frantic carrot farming just to stay alive because they have no clothes to lessen how much food they need so they can go searching for more supplies for additional clothing.

If you have a set of clothes already, one of the best things you can do to help your civ is to leave and search for materials to make more. You have a much better chance of surviving a long distance trip.

Once we reach a point where it's fairly normal to put pants and a shirt on a kid when they're born, I think we'll have an easier time on focusing on how to improve the food supplies. Right now everyone is so desperately looking for their next meal that only the simplest, quickest thing is valid, despite the fact that you have to repeat it constantly just to survive.

If you can get the materials together to cook a few Rabbit Pies instead, you're done, set for life. Stuff them in your backpack and go do something else with your time other than hovering around carrot fields to munch a carrot every 30 seconds.

Last edited by Matok (2018-03-12 04:15:41)

Commoners

Member

Registered: 2018-03-10

Posts: 14

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

Getting a pile of naked people working the fields is actively more harmful than just having them sitting around a fire doing nothing and limiting their food intake, but that is really boring for the naked people.

Portager

Member

Registered: 2018-03-09

Posts: 217

Re: THE **NEW** OPTIMAL CARROT PLANTING (spoilers: it's 4 to 1)

True story. We had a nice setup with berries between each of our rows of carrots, composting was quick and convenient. I leave to fill up my water pouches, and in that one minute a woman had dug up all of the bushes. She claimed they were taking up space for more carrot production *facepalm*