Early Camp Farming: Carrots or Stew Crops?

Colorspinner · 2018-07-25 08:41:28

Hi guys! So I recently got the game not that long ago (Mid July?) and have been wondering about farming strategies, typically for Eve - to - Sheep Farm era.

I've seen early settlements go straight for farming squash and beans right after getting their first bowls made, but wasn't sure how effective it was vs farming carrots for a while first. Usually the camp dies off before the stew gets made, but that also happens to camps that spam berry plantations and run out of soil, so I wasn't sure if it was a miscalculation or just a bad move.

JonySky · 2018-07-25 09:11:40

It depends a lot on your strategy and the objective you need at all times ... I usually start berries and corn at the beginning (thinking about children)
If I have an arid zone nearby, I start growing carrots to have a more varied food
After this I start with the stew
When I appear as eve, I usually end up having stew at the end of my life

Alleria · 2018-07-25 09:58:10

Food variation doesn't matter as much early on. The best strategy if you're in a not-so-great area with limited wild foods (wild berry bushes and cacti primarily) is to make a stone hoe and plant ten or so of berry bushes (until hoe breaks). This is enough berry bushes to sustain about 5 people. If you're in a good area with plenty of cacti, then you really don't need to do any farming until you have your steel tools made. You should also be rushing omelettes for your adults.

Stew is incredibly overrated and is literally just a meme at this point (the maths behind this is out of the scope of this post). Carrots should only ever be eaten in a "yum maximising" society and this is unlikely to be the case until you're at the sheep and compost phase of the game. Carrots produce ~27 calories per plot, AND require tilling, whereas berries produce 35 and DO NOT require tilling (after the bush has been planted).

There's not really any way to run out of soil given how much is around. ~5 soil per person while a single soil pit has 30(?) soil in total. That means even without other food sources, you only need 3 or so soil pits to get you through to the sheep and composting phase.

The reason why your camps are dying off is because people aren't doing meaningful/progressive work, and/or there are too many carrot sponges.

Always remember that the most important thing to do as Eve after choosing a good location is getting steel tools, especially the hoe ASAP and to make lots of bowls and plates. You should aim to have sheep by the time the third generation is reaching old age.

Edit: DO NOT underestimate cactus fruit. A part time cactus farmer in a good area can easily take home 1000-3000 calories in their life time, while a good full-time stewmaster in an already set up area can maybe produce 2000 calories BUT they use a lot of water, soil and iron, while the cactus farmer uses NONE.

If people are interested in learning the finer points of the game, I strongly suggest the Discord. Although there are occasional nuggets of wisdom here, these nuggets originate from discussions had in the Discord.

Last edited by Alleria (2018-07-25 10:07:06)

FounderOne · 2018-07-25 10:14:35

Praise the Cactus God!

TheRedBug · 2018-07-25 11:19:52

Stew before steel tools!
*hides from alleria*

JonySky · 2018-07-25 12:03:23

Alleria wrote:

Food variation doesn't matter as much early on. The best strategy if you're in a not-so-great area with limited wild foods (wild berry bushes and cacti primarily) is to make a stone hoe and plant ten or so of berry bushes (until hoe breaks). This is enough berry bushes to sustain about 5 people. If you're in a good area with plenty of cacti, then you really don't need to do any farming until you have your steel tools made. You should also be rushing omelettes for your adults.
Stew is incredibly overrated and is literally just a meme at this point (the maths behind this is out of the scope of this post). Carrots should only ever be eaten in a "yum maximising" society and this is unlikely to be the case until you're at the sheep and compost phase of the game. Carrots produce ~27 calories per plot, AND require tilling, whereas berries produce 35 and DO NOT require tilling (after the bush has been planted).
There's not really any way to run out of soil given how much is around. ~5 soil per person while a single soil pit has 30(?) soil in total. That means even without other food sources, you only need 3 or so soil pits to get you through to the sheep and composting phase.
The reason why your camps are dying off is because people aren't doing meaningful/progressive work, and/or there are too many carrot sponges.
Always remember that the most important thing to do as Eve after choosing a good location is getting steel tools, especially the hoe ASAP and to make lots of bowls and plates. You should aim to have sheep by the time the third generation is reaching old age.
Edit: DO NOT underestimate cactus fruit. A part time cactus farmer in a good area can easily take home 1000-3000 calories in their life time, while a good full-time stewmaster in an already set up area can maybe produce 2000 calories BUT they use a lot of water, soil and iron, while the cactus farmer uses NONE.
If people are interested in learning the finer points of the game, I strongly suggest the Discord. Although there are occasional nuggets of wisdom here, these nuggets originate from discussions had in the Discord.

about the comments with the berries ... I disagree

an adult needs 3 or 4 berries to be completely satisfied
I think people overestimate the power of a berry

5 adults eating berries ... they do not last 15 minutes

It is ideal for the little ones (1 berry leaves you the full hunger bar)

But for 1 adult you have to resort to more elaborate meals (pies and stew)

Last edited by JonySky (2018-07-25 12:12:00)

Alleria · 2018-07-25 13:17:22

JonySky wrote:

about the comments with the berries ... I disagree
an adult needs 3 or 4 berries to be completely satisfied
I think people overestimate the power of a berry
5 adults eating berries ... they do not last 15 minutes
It is ideal for the little ones (1 berry leaves you the full hunger bar)
But for 1 adult you have to resort to more elaborate meals (pies and stew)

Fortunately, we don't need to speculate as we can just look at the hard numbers. It's completely irrelevant whether it takes 3 meals to satisfy you or just 1. The heart of the matter is what foods give the biggest bang for your buck (resources (incl. time) put in versus resources got out).

Why would you try to argue in favour of a complex and expensive meal like stew for early game use, when we have omelettes which are free and plentiful enough to feed the entire early game population. I'm not saying that berries are in all situations superior to stew, but I'm definitely saying stew has NO place in the early game. Simply an indisputable fact.

Corn can be useful if used properly in the early game and is definitely superior to all other crops except berries (used in popcorn or fresh if maximising yum), but I'd personally avoid it since it's often misused and attracts attention away from actually progressing the town (smithing and preparing for sheep).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A stew provides 196 calories. (forgive inaccuracies, I'm not sure of exact values and probably have omitted something)

It costs about ~2.25 dirt, ~3.25 water, ~2.25 hoe uses, min. 2 bowls, a crock pot, 1 kindling (valuable early game).
Also takes quite a bit of time. You need to find the seeds, wait for them to grow, prepare the ingredients then cook.

This means you're getting about 87 calories per dirt or 60 calories per water.

If we only compare the caloric value based on dirt and water, then this sounds excellent given berries only provide 35 calories.

Given the average stone hoe lasts 20 uses, we can get 9 stews producing 1764 calories (enough calories for about 5 people), or we can plant 10 berry bushes (takes 12 mins from planting to first harvest, or 8 mins in between harvest) we can produce more than 2100 calories (enough calories for about 6 or 7), BUT the KICKER is that these bushes will produce for the rest of the civs life, whereas that stew will be consumed and require more hoeing. This isn't even considering the much larger time investment that goes into stew, which means less time supporting the smith. Anything that isn't in direct support of the smith is a lower priority.

Because of the high value of rope (worth 4 soil and 8 hoe uses) anyone worth their salt will agree it's best to minimise their usage for stone hoes. This means after accounting for the rope cost, a stone hoe really only gets you about 6 farming plots. Soil isn't worth much early on (as stated, 30 soil per pit).

tl;dr In a wild food poor Eve settlement the optimal strategy is to make a single stone hoe, make approximately 10 berry bushes, make omelettes, and rush steel tools ASAP

Last edited by Alleria (2018-07-25 13:20:10)

Potjeh · 2018-07-25 14:15:14

You're ignoring the most important resource - time. Most time is wasted on hauling, and you need to haul a lot more soil and water for berries than for stew. Berries can be better if they're right next to soil and water, but soil pits run out fast. A basket of soil and three bowls of water is sufficient for a pot of stew, but for equivalent calories in berries you need to haul almost twice as much. I wouldn't put that much weight on hoe usage, because you should need a maximum of two stone hoes, steel hoe should be ready by the time the second stone hoe breaks.

Back to OP, I make 3x3 fields for stew and plant carrots and one corn in them. While carrots are growing you can get beans and squash to replant in these fields after carrot harvest.

FounderOne · 2018-07-25 15:00:20

I would recommend berrys and Omeletts first. In the same time smithing should get started. Axe and Hoe first.
Then some milkweed if not much around. Sheep next and in the same time stew.

But you need several people that work with you on those projects.

Alleria · 2018-07-25 15:13:16

Potjeh wrote:

You're ignoring the most important resource - time. Most time is wasted on hauling, and you need to haul a lot more soil and water for berries than for stew. Berries can be better if they're right next to soil and water, but soil pits run out fast. A basket of soil and three bowls of water is sufficient for a pot of stew, but for equivalent calories in berries you need to haul almost twice as much. I wouldn't put that much weight on hoe usage, because you should need a maximum of two stone hoes, steel hoe should be ready by the time the second stone hoe breaks.
Back to OP, I make 3x3 fields for stew and plant carrots and one corn in them. While carrots are growing you can get beans and squash to replant in these fields after carrot harvest.

My main point was time. To haul enough soil for 10 berry bushes will take you 3 and a bit basket loads of soil. 30 seconds is NOT a lot of time lol. Berry bushes will also be with you forever, whereas that stew will be consumed with no return very quickly.

I must again emphasise the kindling cost. Stew making is in direct competition for kindling with the smith. Stew is a luxury and can fuck right off until post-steel stage.

Also, as I said before 1 soil pit produces 30 soil. To sustain a mid size civ until steel tools are available you only need around 2 or 3 soil pits. I've gone over the maths in my comment, and it's clear beyond doubt that berry bushes are a better option/investment.

tl;dr Well chosen civ sites should have AMPLE wild berries and cacti. Optimally, you SHOULD NOT need to have ANY crops before steel tools. If food is likely to be a problem berries are best

Potjeh · 2018-07-25 15:18:09

They will not last forever with no work. You need to haul soil for each harvest, so they're always more expensive on hauling time. And it gets worse as soil pits and ponds deplete. And berry farms can deplete them both real fast. And kindling is irrelevant. If you empty the first pot of stew and you still don't have an axe, you're doing something wrong. Swamp tree stumps should be more than enough fuel to make stew until you have carts, and then you can just haul in batches of 12 curved shafts if you really don't want to use firewood for kindling.

Alleria · 2018-07-25 15:31:16

Hypothetically, let's say you have an Eve with 3 children. 1-2 players should be always present at the kiln doing pottery and processing iron. 1 player should be collecting iron and clay. 1 player should be collecting food for the smiths. This food should be primarily cactus fruit and wild berries collected in bowls. If all 4 players are productive (top 10% of players), and Eve didn't take too long to find civ location, you will have the axe and hoe around the same time as Eve hits menopause. After this, grandchildren will begin rising and farming efforts will ramp up.

I have done this many times when I'm fortunate enough to be playing with good players on both Discord runs and with randoms.

Both stew and berries require significant investment (for a pre-steel civ). If you can get away with it, foraged food, perhaps in conjunction with omelette is ideal.

Alleria · 2018-07-25 15:35:41

Potjeh wrote:

They will not last forever with no work. You need to haul soil for each harvest, so they're always more expensive on hauling time. And it gets worse as soil pits and ponds deplete. And berry farms can deplete them both real fast. And kindling is irrelevant. If you empty the first pot of stew and you still don't have an axe, you're doing something wrong. Swamp tree stumps should be more than enough fuel to make stew until you have carts, and then you can just haul in batches of 12 curved shafts if you really don't want to use firewood for kindling.

My dude, I'm specifically talking about pre-steel era. I've said stew is acceptable post stew. Kindling loses most of it's value by gen 3-4.

The hustle doesn't finish once steel tools are made. You'd better keep hustling until you've got that compost "stewing" away. I love RPing with stew as much as the next person.

Potjeh · 2018-07-25 15:54:04

Steel tools are first gen, second gen tech at most. I can generally get a pot of stew by the time I hit menopause as Eve, and have enough time to make hammer, axe and shovel (kids can easily make hoe after I'm dead).

Turnipseed · 2018-07-25 16:37:17

This is just personal preference, but i survive on wild food until pottery has been established making 6 bowls, one crock, and as many plates as will allow.

Then i plant a half dozen berry bushes a couple rows of carrots, some corn, at least two beans, and one squash.

Green beans are a underutilized form of food, while not the best with proper yum utilization you can get a yum bonus of +9 while still at child bearing age as an eve.

I almost never make a stone hoe, as i can usually get all this planted with skewers, and churn out a set of steel tools before i die of old age. After that i dont have any influence on what happens. Its up to the kids. As eve i keep 2 girls and one boy replacing them as they die. I usually just tell them to gather food. This keeps them out of my hair while i get the camp running. The really smart ones ignore me and gather iron or rabbit or milkweed. While the not so smart ones still make themselves usefull bringing in onions, eggs, and burdock.

Rushing out a steel axe, shovel, and a hoe is my goal as eve. Sometimes i get a stew made, and that takes alot of food pressure off my kids, but usually theres some green beans, and popcorn laying around instead.

CynderR · 2018-07-25 19:09:44

I think we can agree that the way we play this game is mostly for fun and there is no best way.
But really the best way is my way of course ;P I tend to make a set of berry bush's (9-12) as they will be needed for sheep anyways and try to rush to sheep by spending the rest of my miserable berry eating life making or working towards steel tools.
If the civ does not have stew i do enjoy making a stew farm, and you will often find me here, but never as an Eve.

Turnipseed · 2018-07-25 20:33:21

The best thing that can happen to an eve is to get lucky and have a seasoned player spawn in as a girl. So find those optimal biomes give yourself a name and pray.

pein · 2018-07-25 22:05:14

i gonna be ready to shoot you if you steal kindling before making an axe
stew is shittons of mess and uses liek 6 bowls and 3 plates, kindling

so normally people should make a few bowls before making any stew
also spread that thing out a bit more, dont just throw a stew in middle of city if its stationary food, make the fire in a strategic position, like one near pen, one near other side of town

berry is newbie friendly, sometimes you need noobs to raise up a pro player, and they die without simple food sources they can recognize

you strategize too much, i still dont see any progress
you dont take bowls, plates ,kindling from forge
you plant ten milkweed to get sheep
and eight more per deep well and bucket

then do your stew

Nopik · 2018-07-26 00:40:59

This is how I make stew:
Fill a bowl with water, leave near crock.
Get squash, put on plate, hit with hatchet or axe, put in crock.
Get dried corn, put in bowl, hit with flint, put in crock.
Take bowl to bean farm, put beans in bowl til full, hit with stone, put on plate, put back in bowl, add water from second bowl, put water back in second bowl, put beans in crock.
Put water from second bowl into crock
Make fire somewhere away from project areas.
Put crock on coals.

Resources used up: one water, one branch, two hits of the hatchet or axe, squash, corn, and beans.
I briefly used one plate, two bowls, a flint and a stone.

At the end, I have a crock full of stew and will need one bowl to eat the stew.

Turnipseed · 2018-07-26 01:20:14

pein wrote:

also spread that thing out a bit more, dont just throw a stew in middle of city if its stationary food, make the fire in a strategic position, like one near pen, one near other side of town

Super important!!! Speread it out!!!

Alleria · 2018-07-26 02:47:46

I think we've established that stew is a fun RP food that has it's place in the mid-late game (around the time of pie production) and that foraging wild foods is preferable to berries pre-steel.

elpargo · 2018-07-26 03:41:37

awesome discussions keep them coming. I'm definitely going to try joining one of those discord runs

zennyrpg · 2018-07-26 04:48:36

Alleria wrote:

I think we've established that stew is a fun RP food that has it's place in the mid-late game (around the time of pie production) and that foraging wild foods is preferable to berries pre-steel.

Wild food is preferable, but I still think ~9 berry bushes can make a big difference for yum and kids. Obviously you should rush tools, and if you are/have great players you don't need it. But for mere mortals, I still think berries are a good idea. The eve doesn't even need to do it, young children can set this up easily.

Alleria · 2018-07-26 05:41:42

zennyrpg wrote:

Alleria wrote:
I think we've established that stew is a fun RP food that has it's place in the mid-late game (around the time of pie production) and that foraging wild foods is preferable to berries pre-steel.
Wild food is preferable, but I still think ~9 berry bushes can make a big difference for yum and kids. Obviously you should rush tools, and if you are/have great players you don't need it. But for mere mortals, I still think berries are a good idea. The eve doesn't even need to do it, young children can set this up easily.

Absolutely. I've made crock pots as Eve for the stew zealots in the past, given at the end of the day, this IS just a game and we're playing it to have fun. If my kids don't feel comfortable doing anything more progressive, then I'm very happy for them when they make a berry farm (provided in good location, preferable adjacent to at least 3 ponds). Just had an amazing life with randoms and got to sheep (caged, not free range) by the end of gen 2.

#StormFamRepresent

pein · 2018-07-26 06:20:31

nah, a berry farm is great, asap, it decreases child mortality and suicide
also most people are idiot at it, at least show a pattern for them
if you plant 3 on side of desert, their ocd makes them plant 3 more below it

often i see people plant near the desert, thats why we use deserts, you stand on it, you plant on it, you eat less, even if you eat there and run out, you use less calories, dont even talk about the twin eves i seen last time who knew about the water, still didnt move near
i mean its a shit spot, but its still better than a dry desert where all of their kids starved at 3-5 year old, and all i seen is 2 sisters coming north, then tried to help me but starved, then i went back last time, only 2 sons and a big daughter standing there, who died kinda right away, and was only one son who watered crops running 50 tiles back and forth

i generally rush a few bowls, like 3-6 so it gives the ability to move soil and water, before some kid starts tilling 3 soil with a skewer
then get a rope and make a stone hoe from fire brand and plant a few berry
then it takes 12 min to get food inside camp
now your 3rd kid can have some berry until it decides what to do

thing is if most of players wouldnt be lazy, they could produce much more than it consume
it even would worth leaving berry bushes to dry for some kindling, its same as a carrot row, if you think about it, letting some dry and cutting it means 1 kindling for 1 tilling and one berry-one hatchet hit-thats the actual cost, cause you get the berries for the soil and water on second refill
i dig/chop out some to improve the logistics anyway

actually planting milkweed, getting clay and branches, getting iron is the job of second gen kids, not that making rabbit fur hats, planting stew plants and messing around
forging is priority until all tools get made
my mother was complaining why do i forge when we need food,i could feed mgself on wild food, and the cart i made was very beneficial later on, also the bucket allowed us better logistics

lot of them died in the process, yes, but you cant expect experienced players feed you, get soil for you and do all tedious tasks
also i dont need 0 age sisters, who gonna pop out kids, one maybe, five daughters at same age is overkill

corn is very underused, uses a lot of bowls, same as berry bowls
but this two are the smallest portion of food, and you can calculate calories, heck, i dont even care about yum bonus or overeating a bit, even if i lose a half stew, i eat before forging so i doesnt mess up the setup and i save on kindling and time

most of newbies eat every time their hunger drops 1 bar, so thats how you dont win anything on making stew, as corn actually can fill up a kids belly and wastes less than anything else

for a new player, it can be a life goal to make like 15 popcorns, and it helps the colony, every time you fire up a forge and can make like 12 popcorns right away, it feeds the young population
yes its a bit of work getting 12 bowls just for corn, but its worth it

same goes for plates, for every pond with egg you need a plates, which can mean even 12-15, there is not much cost, i wont bring all of them home but i pick them out most of time

later you can make pies on them when you need more wells and shoot goose

also plates are the thing, making mutton pie making less efficient, often i do 12 extra just to improve on that, but wheat tortilla and beans can compliment a wheat field, basket making, straw hat production, even making adobe out of straw and clay
uses trashed wheat up, 6 on a plate, meaning 6 grain into 24 tortilla, into 4 plates, cleans up the place pretty fast

Last edited by pein (2018-07-26 06:23:12)

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#1 2018-07-25 08:41:28

Early Camp Farming: Carrots or Stew Crops?

#2 2018-07-25 09:11:40

Re: Early Camp Farming: Carrots or Stew Crops?

#3 2018-07-25 09:58:10

Re: Early Camp Farming: Carrots or Stew Crops?

#4 2018-07-25 10:14:35

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#7 2018-07-25 13:17:22

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#20 2018-07-26 01:20:14

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#21 2018-07-26 02:47:46

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#23 2018-07-26 04:48:36

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