Still thinking about griefers.

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-11 17:55:13

Got an email from a concerned citizen yesterday, and it said, in part:

I don't think I'm even really talking about griefers who go around killing people to be honest - This isn't that hard to take care of with the game mechanics in place, since they move so slow and it's obvious that they did it. (Though, it is really frustrating to have one person kill off the last one or two fertile females and tank your entire lineage because of "tehlulz".) No, I think what is ruining/has ruined the game for me is the griefers who do everything in their power to collapse your village and cause chaos for everyone.
I think what broke me was what happened today - I was born into a rather large city that was running quite well - A thriving berry farm, a bakery, tools, with only the sheep pen needing some improvements. I spent the next 40 minutes improving the village, and playing the role of baker and shephard to the city. But, wouldn't you know it? Someone by the name of Johnny (of course his name is Johnny), decides to start raiding the kitchen and taking all the pies to the wild, eating them as fast as possible, and returning again to do the same thing over and over. This was caught on by the city pretty quickly, and a party was sent out to find and kill him. But, because of game mechanics, all the guy had to do was keep running (and starvation wouldn't be an issue, seeing as how he had pie after pie he could eat. The "murder party" has to stop and eat too). This literally went on for 10 minutes, with the guy stealing and eating all the pies, and moving on to berry bushes, carrots, you name it. He found a horse someone left lying around and used it to gallop away repeatedly. (Can you even kill someone on a horse?). The entire city has to begin mobilizing, or else the entire city is going to starve. When I finally died, Johnny was STILL on the run and screwing up everything about the city we worked so hard to keep running.
Now, this might sound like a memorable experience right? A great narrative that about the outlaw "Johnny" and a communities attempts to thwart him! ... ... ...
No, not really. It just left a bad taste in my mouth and frustrated me to no end. Not really the fact of what was happening mind you, griefers are going to be in the game, but the fact that all that will really happen to this player is that he will get some people throw curses at him, and then he gets to respawn again to just do the same damn thing. Sure, he might be cursed now, but to be honest it's not hard for a someone who really wants to grief to work around it - Just don't say anything and most moms will let you live until you are old enough to start causing chaos. I think what frustrates me the most is there are really no consequences for this player - He isn't going to get banned, he isn't going to have his account suspended, all that will really happen is that he will have some black text when he talks. (And for someone who makes a point of griefing, this almost feels like a token of honor to have).
I don't know if it's just me having confirmation bias or if it's true, but it feels like griefers are becoming more and more common in One Hour One Life. It feels like every other game I have to deal with someone going on a killing spree, or eating all the food, or putting corn kernels on every. Single. Solitary. Tile. (Seriously, why don't kernels stack??). I really feel helpless to stop it, as I know that even if the community gets rid of them they can just be born again to start it all over somewhere else. Sure, this does mimic real life in a way - There are people in communities that are free loaders, sociopaths, or that cause chaos in some way. But, the thing is, in real life these people only get that ONE life. They know that going on a killing spree in front of everyone will end the one life they have, and so they are going to do it quietly. (And, honestly, serial killers are pretty rare anyway). A free loader knows he has to do something or he will get ostracized immediately. And even if he isn't, his actions (or lack thereof) aren't going to cause a thriving village to completely collapse. It just astounds me how much power griefers can have in this game, and they know it too. And additionally, they know they can just keep getting away with it - There are really no consequences. ("Oh, I got killed? Sweet, time to get reborn again and again and again and again and...).
I really think a system needs to be implemented where accounts start getting suspended or banned if they get too many curses thrown there way. (Currently, this is the only way to "report" a player). Like, if a person gets a black text and is STILL getting curses, at around the 20-30 mark their account is marked for a suspension or outright ban. I know there are issues and apprehensiveness in implementing something like this, (maybe even coding/gaming problems?) but it would go a long way, for me at least, to feel like my curse is at least going to do something about this player in the end. Currently, I don't feel like I can do anything against griefing players in the long run, and since the playerbase is overall still pretty low, the chances of you running into them are, frankly, high.

I think that the outlaw Johnny does make for an interesting story.

And in real life, "griefers" have done far worse than just stealing pies. 9/11 might be seen as the ultimate act of griefing in modern times. In retaliation, we invaded two sovereign nations, had the leader of one hung, and assassinated the "outlaw" leader hiding in a third nation---ten years later.

The problem with Johnny is that he can keep coming back. Over and over.

Yes, you can curse him, but that might not even stop him, and it eventually wears off.

Dealing with Johnny once is great drama. And the game does need some Johnny's around. I mean, there's nothing like the feeling you get when you kill a griefer, am I right?

On the other hand, it shouldn't feel like an endless onslaught, and you shouldn't be completely powerless against that onslaught. It's not dramatic when it happens all the time.

A few limitations of the current curse system:

1. It's implemented separately on each server. This isn't that big of a problem when all the action is happening on server1, because getting cursed there is all that matters, but it does give griefers 2x opportunity on the weekends when the load is split between servers. Also, in the future, the game will grow to fill all 15 servers (right?), and that will be a 15x opportunity for griefing. This is mostly a someday problem, though.

2. Cursed status wears off (good, for redemption), but it also has no memory. If you attain cursed status for your 100th time, the effect is the same as your first time. Thus, serial griefers are treated the same as first-time griefers or cases of mistaken intention.

3. (maybe) Cursed status is only visible through speech. I think this is a player-solvable problem (interview babies). But it's also easy for me to "fix" for you by making a more visible mark, separate from speech.

I'm VERY hesitant to implement some kind of full ban system. People paid $20 for the game, and there's no specific rule against breaking player-generated rules. As I said above, the game does need SOME Johnny's. Also, there are plenty of opportunities for legitimate disagreements, wars, etc., that may result in curses being thrown around.

So, I think a "soft" system, where players get marked, and then future players can make their own choice about how to deal with them, is going to be the limit of any grief-control system.

The question is: does the marking system need to be stronger, or more visible, or more long-lasting?

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-11 17:57:36

I'm going to go gather some stats now about grief and curse frequency, and report back here in a bit.

startafight · 2018-09-11 18:13:24

im gonna use overwatch as an example cos its the one im most familiar with. blizzard has rules against throwing and other forms of griefing b/c they know that the vast majority of players came to the game to have what it promised to deliver - a decent fps game with fun designs. while there are fun instances of players who join up with the other team to crouch spam and do emotes and voice lines there are also players who want to seriously play the game and have the experience they paid for

this distinction between serious and casual players are solved a little bit by making different gamemodes. there is competitive and there is quick play. quick play is more acceptable to dick around in while competitive has serious bans or punishments (xp decreases). they also have a report system that gives a bit of control back into the players hands

i think what u should consider (if u dont wanna go through with banning) is putting through the idea of split servers for "serious" players and casual (and asshole) players. in the serious server you should be able to be banned from that specific server if you get black texted twice (personally id ban em at black texting once but yanno). but in the casual server it should be free reign as it is right now

also i understand you hesitation to ban people, but remember that the players who are victims of griefing also paid 20$ to play a game that doesnt reward them consistently. at least with overwatch i know that the more i play the more cool shit ill get and if i get better at the game ill have people who say "gg" or "thanks!" but in this game that kind of positive reinforcement is rare. it makes playing exhausting

edit: also with university starting back up again i can see myself not picking this game up again. i genuinely love this idea jason i love the aesthetic of this game and when i have fun lives they are super fun! but it also does take 60 minutes of my life. i get home pretty late u kno with extracurriculars and volunteering. i dont wanna come home and play a game that i have to invest an hour into just for some asshole to easily demolish my hour's worth of work in 5 minutes. its not rewarding and its not fun

Last edited by startafight (2018-09-11 18:17:07)

Catfive · 2018-09-11 18:15:48

Glad you are on the case Jason. Maybe allowing account curses to mark is an answer as you say, a visible 'mark of the damned' or maybe allowing curses to stack past 10 and be able to curse already cursed players helps too? With appropriate increased penalties like slowed movement from birth, inability to equip a weapon and less 'severe' penalties kicking in at certain levels. You are right it does need to be possible to 'serve your time' and gain redemption but as you say when at times it happens generation upon generation it becomes a bit old fast!

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-11 18:30:55

On server1:

674 total people have been cursed.

Here are the top 100 curse recipients (the top person was cursed 114 times):

    114  c....@....om
    100  r....@....om
     74  c....@....et
     71  h....@....om
     66  s....@....om
     56  d....@....om
     49  v....@....om
     49  p....@....om
     49  m....@....om
     43  p....@....om
     43  M....@....om
     38  j....@....et
     37  m....@....om
     36  l....@....om
     35  m....@....om
     35  d....@....de
     32  t....@....om
     32  c....@....om
     29  m....@....om
     29  f....@....om
     28  S....@....om
     28  f....@....om
     27  s....@....om
     26  L....@....om
     26  b....@....et
     26  b....@....om
     25  b....@....om
     25  b....@....om
     24  n....@....om
     23  p....@....jp
     21  W....@....om
     21  u....@....ar
     21  c....@....om
     20  w....@....om
     20  w....@....om
     20  a....@....om
     19  v....@....om
     19  m....@....om
     19  j....@....om
     18  s....@....om
     18  r....@....om
     17  t....@....om
     17  r....@....om
     17  l....@....om
     17  i....@....om
     16  e....@....om
     16  c....@....om
     15  s....@....om
     15  m....@....om
     15  M....@....om
     15  B....@....OM
     15  b....@....om
     14  s....@....om
     14  r....@....om
     14  l....@....ee
     14  g....@....om
     14  b....@....om
     14  b....@....om
     13  s....@....om
     13  r....@....du
     13  j....@....om
     13  j....@....uk
     13  b....@....om
     12  v....@....om
     12  V....@....et
     12  r....@....om
     12  o....@....uk
     12  n....@....om
     12  D....@....om
     12  c....@....om
     11  s....@....om
     11  m....@....om
     11  g....@....om
     11  g....@....om
     11  f....@....om
     10  w....@....om
     10  s....@....om
     10  P....@....om
     10  m....@....om
     10  d....@....om
     10  C....@....om
      9  w....@....om
      9  w....@....om
      9  v....@....om
      9  s....@....om
      9  s....@....du
      9  m....@....om
      9  k....@....om
      8  t....@....om
      8  t....@....om
      8  t....@....om
      8  s....@....om
      8  s....@....om
      8  R....@....ET
      8  r....@....om
      8  p....@....om
      8  o....@....om
      8  o....@....om
      8  o....@....pl
      8  k....@....om

81 people have been cursed 10 or more times (making it at least possible for them to have been born marked, depending on timing of their curses).

Here are the top 100 killers on server1:

    863  r....@....om
    726  r....@....om
    394  s....@....om
    266  s....@....om
    259  k....@....uk
    251  d....@....om
    242  p....@....om
    240  s....@....de
    216  l....@....om
    213  l....@....ch
    197  M....@....om
    179  b....@....om
    168  c....@....om
    143  j....@....et
    138  b....@....om
    129  N....@....OM
    129  m....@....pl
    123  m....@....om
    121  m....@....om
    109  R....@....OM
    103  k....@....om
    102  h....@....om
    101  m....@....om
    100  d....@....de
     99  g....@....om
     97  b....@....et
     93  p....@....om
     92  D....@....om
     90  P....@....om
     88  a....@....om
     85  s....@....om
     84  w....@....om
     79  x....@....om
     78  v....@....om
     77  e....@....om
     76  r....@....om
     75  s....@....om
     70  m....@....om
     69  f....@....om
     68  s....@....om
     66  W....@....om
     66  b....@....om
     65  v....@....om
     64  m....@....om
     63  C....@....om
     62  w....@....om
     62  h....@....om
     62  a....@....fi
     61  a....@....om
     60  v....@....om
     60  k....@....om
     58  s....@....om
     57  a....@....om
     56  c....@....et
     56  a....@....ar
     55  m....@....om
     55  c....@....om
     55  b....@....om
     54  b....@....om
     52  u....@....om
     51  t....@....om
     51  c....@....om
     49  q....@....om
     48  m....@....om
     48  L....@....om
     47  b....@....om
     46  j....@....om
     45  p....@....om
     45  l....@....om
     45  d....@....om
     44  M....@....om
     44  h....@....om
     43  w....@....om
     43  m....@....om
     43  f....@....om
     42  r....@....uk
     41  Z....@....om
     41  w....@....om
     41  j....@....om
     41  c....@....de
     40  s....@....om
     40  r....@....du
     40  j....@....om
     39  t....@....om
     38  H....@....om
     37  w....@....om
     37  R....@....uk
     37  l....@....om
     37  g....@....om
     37  f....@....om
     36  k....@....om
     36  j....@....om
     35  s....@....om
     35  j....@....om
     34  s....@....om
     34  s....@....om
     34  r....@....om
     33  r....@....om
     33  m....@....om
     33  k....@....om

Yes, 863 people is a pretty high body count for one person.

And the most KILLED people on server1:

    210  r....@....om
    177  k....@....om
    136  j....@....et
    130  c....@....om
    104  s....@....om
     87  M....@....om
     80  d....@....om
     71  c....@....et
     60  l....@....om
     59  m....@....om
     59  b....@....et
     57  c....@....uk
     52  m....@....om
     51  m....@....om
     51  d....@....de
     51  b....@....om
     49  m....@....om
     49  c....@....om
     48  h....@....om
     48  b....@....om
     47  t....@....om
     47  P....@....om
     47  j....@....om
     45  r....@....om
     42  p....@....om
     42  b....@....om
     42  4....@....om
     41  a....@....om
     40  W....@....om
     40  v....@....om
     40  h....@....kr
     38  p....@....om
     37  k....@....om
     36  k....@....om
     35  s....@....om
     35  c....@....om
     34  l....@....ch
     34  j....@....om
     33  s....@....de
     33  r....@....uk
     33  m....@....om
     33  i....@....om
     31  t....@....om
     31  m....@....pl
     31  j....@....om
     30  f....@....om
     30  a....@....om
     29  f....@....om
     28  s....@....om
     28  k....@....om
     28  e....@....om
     27  m....@....om
     27  m....@....om
     27  h....@....om
     26  o....@....pl
     26  j....@....ca
     26  f....@....om
     26  c....@....om
     25  y....@....om
     25  v....@....om
     25  u....@....ar
     25  t....@....om
     25  p....@....om
     25  m....@....ca
     25  K....@....om
     25  a....@....fi
     24  m....@....om
     24  m....@....om
     24  l....@....om
     24  h....@....om
     23  x....@....om
     23  w....@....om
     23  v....@....om
     23  s....@....om
     23  m....@....om
     23  m....@....om
     23  g....@....om
     22  w....@....om
     22  t....@....om
     22  p....@....jp
     22  m....@....om
     22  l....@....om
     22  k....@....ee
     22  k....@....om
     22  j....@....om
     22  H....@....om
     21  S....@....om
     21  p....@....om
     21  n....@....om
     21  m....@....om
     21  L....@....om
     21  d....@....om
     21  b....@....om
     21  b....@....nl
     20  s....@....om
     20  r....@....om
     20  p....@....om
     20  o....@....om
     20  n....@....cc

And yes ( r....@....om ) is at the top of, or in second place, on all three lists. It's the same person.

MultiLife · 2018-09-11 18:48:50

jasonrohrer wrote:

The question is: does the marking system need to be stronger, or more visible, or more long-lasting?

I'd say
1. Long-lasting
2. Stronger
3. Visible

Longer lasting, stronger punishments/marks. Visibility is still what we need in the current situation but as was mentioned, server timeouts and bans would be great.
Also making cursed people weaker would be great.

As long as the heroes are not registered as killers, but looking at those numbers, I think that's not going to be the case...
I hope the curse paper is fixed.

Last edited by MultiLife (2018-09-11 18:52:19)

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-11 18:55:44

There were 20,153 murders on server1 out of 1,158,723 total deaths, for a murder rate of 1.7%

Of course, the quoted email says that murder isn't as big of an issue as the more insidious forms of griefing.

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-11 18:57:16

What's wrong with the curse paper?

I thought it would be a good way to spread a curse to younger "readers" who are not old enough to say the full curse themselves.

Are you saying that it's too easy to abuse?

MultiLife · 2018-09-11 19:00:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

What's wrong with the curse paper?
I thought it would be a good way to spread a curse to younger "readers" who are not old enough to say the full curse themselves.
Are you saying that it's too easy to abuse?

Yes, people have been abusing it and people accidentally use their tokens when they didn't want to.

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-11 19:24:15

Will fix curse paper.

Okay.... so here's the plan that I worked out. What do you think?

1. A more visible mark on cursed babies/people, regardless of whether they speak (black speech will stay, but I'll add something that cannot be missed visually).

2. A global database that tracks players' total curse scores, shared by all servers. This total score never decrements. So our top player above would have 114, or whatever, forever.

3. A current curse score that is also shared by all servers. Getting cursed on one server makes you cursed on all servers.

4. Your current curse score decrements at a rate determined by your total score. As your total score gets higher, your current curse score decrements more slowly (more time as marked baby). Currently, everyone loses one curse point per hour. The new formula will be:

1 + ( totalCurseScore / 20 )^2

2 and 20 would both be parameters that I could adjust, but as an example, someone with a lifetime curse score of 114 would have to play for 33+ hours to have their current curse score decremented by one point. But someone who has a lifetime score of 10 (born marked once) will decrement one curse point ever 1.25 hours.

Fetch · 2018-09-11 19:27:57

I do like the idea of cursed people coming back slower. In theory, that way people still have access to the game they bought, but serial griefers would become frustrated with the play, and the damage they could do would be less with each curse.
A mark would be handy for weeding out cursed babies.

You could also program it so serial murderers can't pick up a knife or a bow.

Joriom · 2018-09-11 19:33:32

Just a thing to point out: curse havent settled in with people even now.

There are a lot of people who will keep cursed babies giving them benefit of the doubt, people who will heal cursed people after they get stabbed, people who think curse is unfair and cursed people should not be "discriminated". In short: there are a lot of idiots. They don't give a damn about the system, the tool handed to them by "god" himself and are willing to ignore it, thus killing their own civilization.

On the other hand there are some people who "collect" curses. They try to get cursed on purpose, because its fun to have black letters. The same problem we had with TimeOut on discord giving yellow text to people. "It makes me special, thus I want it!".

TL;DR;
A lot of people don't see curse as a bad thing.

Tarr · 2018-09-11 19:34:20

Sounds like a pretty good fix. However, any plans on fixing twin/trip/quad griefers? I know last night we just had another pair of twin griefers who were locking people inside buildings.

I'd feel a lot better about raising twins+ if I knew there was some sort of counterbalance for bad eggs. It doesn't seem fair to legitimate people wanting to play with their friends to get the bad rap for the few griefer groups that pop up.

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-11 19:42:29

Kidnapping! Imprisonment!

Well, not sure about twins.... I have thought about curses applying to both of them together. But that's a separate issue, for now.

Joriom.... I'm not trying to make the game idiot-proof. I mean, people have power in this game to make bad decisions. And tales of redemption are dramatic and interesting, so I get why people would be tempted to raise a marked baby.

Joriom · 2018-09-11 19:44:00

Village idiot is a fun concept. Village of idiots is not. Just saying.

PeaGirl · 2018-09-11 19:45:47

Perhaps you should make babies grin like Jack the Killer, or give them devil horns to show who is cursed.

Matisz · 2018-09-11 20:08:29

I highly support visible recognition of cursed people since griefers will have no way of hiding it from their mother. I think a character model for a cursed character would be great.

I also support handicapping people who are cursed with possible things such as:

-Slower movement speed
-Inability to pick up certain items
-Decreased maximum hunger bar (I think this could be very effective so if you are to attack another player, it may guarantee your death from starving)
-Shorter life
-Inability to wear clothing, backpacks
-An NPC that comes around and stabs the cursed player randomly (this ones a joke but would be hilarious and fantastic)

In my own opinion, if you really are going to be an a**hole and ruin the fun in the game for others, you should have to pay for it with things that ruin it for you...

MultiLife · 2018-09-11 20:12:23

The plan sounds promising!

PeaGirl wrote:

Perhaps you should make babies grin like Jack the Killer, or give them devil horns to show who is cursed.

Rather have something less "cool", something dumb that people wouldn't even want in the first place.

Uncle Gus · 2018-09-11 20:18:36

This proposed change is a good change, a step in the right direction.

boggers · 2018-09-11 20:19:36

It may help to make cursed status tougher to deal with and undesirable while still in keeping with your goals of players self regulating.

Maybe allow curse score to go above 10 with progressively harsher penalties.

eg:
Black text starts at 8 instead of 10.
At 12 points you are physically marked and your wounds do not heal so that any injury is fatal. This ought to help with twins and triplets.
At 16 you die instantly when attacked with no chance to speak or even know who killed you or why.
At 20 points your words become unintelligible to other players, replaced with "*%&^$" and there is no repercussions for killing you - no bloody weapon, no slowdown, not even a murder corpse.

JonySky · 2018-09-11 20:38:26

Jason, murder is not a serious problem, in the last games, I have found murderers but they are easily recognizable and can be solved quite easily ...

the problem as well indicated in the letter are the abusers, griefers and trolls that ruin a game without the need to stick a knife

I realized that if there is not a pool of blood in the center of the camp, people do nothing to avoid a disaster ...

Be careful what I say next ... !!! these people are part of the game ... sometimes these abusers cause good stories to tell and new challenges to overcome ...

but in general and in large doses this is negative for the game and for the rest of the players

I think OHOL is currently receiving a lot of new players ... surely among these new players there are abusers and people who want to play to build civilizations

new players do not know the systems to detect abusive, cursed babies or that they will create problems as adults

this complicates many things in the cities ... because these abusers are alive because the "novice" mothers raise these people without realizing that they are saving the person who will end their lineage

the solution is not easy, but I think that the abusers have to be punished a little more

think that the problem is in two parts ... the part of the abuser, and the part of the person raising the abuser if you look at your children

It is not just a problem of the abuser, so I think you have to take more forceful solutions ... because although the abuser is fluorescent color ... always find some clueless mother who will raise

Maybe it sounds like an absurd idea but ... what do you think about creating a kind of explosive necklace for the cursed people? ... hahaha I'm sorry ... a crazy idea !! or not...

Last edited by JonySky (2018-09-11 20:47:07)

Dodge · 2018-09-11 21:14:14

Seems good, definitly not a perma ban, griefers add to the animation of big cities

Maybe a dummy hat could be a good visual recognition

Turnipseed · 2018-09-11 21:35:30

I think players should be sent to a bad sport lobby like on gta. The more you get cursed the longer you spend there with all the other asshats that got sent there.

Dredonkey · 2018-09-11 21:56:41

I think this is definitely something that should be done, however I think it would be pretty cruel to give cursed players draw backs considering how long it could potentially take them to loose there cursed status, maybe a few things would be nice.

Somebody was also mentioning having drawbacks be in a tier based system depending on your current curse score, that sounds like it would work out fairly well.

I totally agree on having a visual indication besides black text on cursed players, i.e markings, but I think in addition to this you could have different markings depending on how many curse points a player has, this could also be a visual indication of a "draw back tier" they could be on, letting you know what they can and cannot do. I think the markings tier's could be different markings, larger/more detailed ones, or something like a symbol that gains marks around it or something, maybe a pentagram forming, who knows.

Anyways those are my thoughts on the subject, good luck and keep doing what you do. (:

GrottenOlm · 2018-09-11 21:58:33

Just as murder isn't really that big of a deal with the current countermeasures, there could be some simple countermeasures for food griefers. Overeating x amount of food (not being fed, to avoid exploitation) in a minute could cause you to become fat. The effects could range anywhere from reduced movespeed to forced periodical stops so the character can take a breath. This would not just be a fitting solution, but also hilarious to watch.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-09-11 17:55:13

Still thinking about griefers.

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#25 2018-09-11 21:58:33

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

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