Still thinking about griefers.

Trick · 2018-09-12 15:41:52

Joriom wrote:

tana wrote:
But i agree that the curse should have more consequences than just being recognised because of black speech and possible future marks, if it helps us recognise a bit easier truly toxic players, it still doesnt detter them very much from continuing their toxic behaviors, some persons truly have no mindset other than ruining other players game as much as possible. And I can't think of any other multiplayer based game that doesn't have some kind of reporting system. And I'm not talking about murderers, those are usually just wannabe griefers, always dealt with some varying succes.
Because... Curse is not supposed to deter anyone. Its supposed to be a tool for people to know who to watch out for and who to exclude from their society. Its up to YOU to banish this person from your society or just kill him.
Is it really so hard to take responsibility for that into your own hands? I understand that milenials prefer eferything to be done for them by others, but come on...
Curse is a tool for intel. Action stays in your own hands.

The problem with this is that it doesn't serve as a punishment to the griefer/toxic player, but rather serves as a burden to every other player.

The system should punish toxic players or serve as a major deterrent for their bad behaviour, not burden everyone else.

IRL, we don't say "Ok, we're letting the murderer live in your city... it's YOUR job to be extra vigilant and ensure they don't continue murdering people and/or murder you". That would only terrorize the regular citizens, and any logical person would think that's insane. That's effectively what happens in the game, currently.

pein · 2018-09-12 15:55:02

GrottenOlm wrote:

pein wrote:
learn to fight and dont be a pussy
you already bitch about something that was nerfed twice
also there isnt only you in the world, imagine reverse situation
the griefer just kills you even easier if you cannot handle with the ultra nerf slowdown
Why the aggressive tone? And how exactly does murder slowdown help you deal with someone who's griefing by eating all the food or stealing important tools?

the point is anything you can do others will do it too, and no guarantee that they wont do it for bad reasons
we fell on the other side of horse so any kind of make easier kills and make harder to get away with it is stupid
if you kill a griefer chances are you starve or others stab you for your gear

SomeRandomPerson · 2018-09-12 16:07:03

Honestly Jason, I don't think griefer prevention is that major of a priority atm. Stealing/Sabotage is minor griefing compared to murdering an entire city. You can bake more pies and get another lamb.

Potjeh · 2018-09-12 16:08:26

I still think curse should make you play as Cain until it expires. Ie you spawn as a lone male in the wilderness, and you have to live out your cursed time like that. Also, base curse time should increase each time you're successfully cursed. So the guy with 114 curses would have to play alone for like 200 hours the next time he gets cursed.

Last edited by Potjeh (2018-09-12 16:08:57)

Joriom · 2018-09-12 16:15:38

Trick wrote:

The problem with this is that it doesn't serve as a punishment to the griefer/toxic player, but rather serves as a burden to every other player.
The system should punish toxic players or serve as a major deterrent for their bad behaviour, not burden everyone else.
IRL, we don't say "Ok, we're letting the murderer live in your city... it's YOUR job to be extra vigilant and ensure they don't continue murdering people and/or murder you". That would only terrorize the regular citizens, and any logical person would think that's insane. That's effectively what happens in the game, currently.

I think you still don't get it. Curse is not meant to be a punishment. Its not meant to punish player directly. Jason does not want to punish anyone. Game should not pushing people on its own. Its players who should punish other players if we want "real" society forming.

Curse is a tool for players to recognize that someone might have been already punished and might deserve punishment again ONLY BECAUSE you can respawn which is not available IRL. Curse is tool that countermeasures the respawn mechanic, not a punishment for bad behaviour.

IRL we don't let "murderer live in the city". True. We should not let him live in game as well. Here we agree.
IRL it actually IS YOUR JOB to be extra vigilant and ensure they don't continue murdering people. Its balled law enforcement. Its called army. Its called Police.

So what we need in game is "Policemen" or "Army". Not "god striking lightning at killers". We need players who roleplay as guards. And curse is meant to help them do their job. Not to do their job for them.

boggers · 2018-09-12 16:33:13

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm not going to implement specific solutions to specific forms of griefing (obesity or whatever), because there are an infinite number of different forms of griefing, and if I plug one rat hole, they'll just chew through and make another one. If they can't eat all the food, they can always throw it all in the woods to hide it, right? One cart can hold a lot of pies....

I've been thinking about this comment and have to disagree. I think you'd do better to view griefers in OHOL as people showing you exactly where the game is broken.

Take clearing all the maple trees which seems to the common grief this week. Ghost towns without fire and no way to recreate it.

You could fix this in 5 minutes by creating "flint and steel" or plantable maples or whatever.

Towns filled with corn kernels on every tile? Wouldn't be a problem if everything small and easily duplicatable was also easily stackable.

People hiding themselves or other things behind maple trees? Or standing in front of the hammer when someone lights the forge? Players need to be able to mouse over and select things that are behind other things, even if they can't see a single pixel.

You have griefers in OHOL because at the moment it is a griefer's paradise.

Joriom · 2018-09-12 16:36:18

boggers wrote:

I think you'd do better to view griefers in OHOL as people showing you exactly where the game is broken.

I love this comment. In IT world griefers are mostly called "Testers" and they're often paid for it

Developer: How can I make it?
Tester: How can I break it?

sanchez · 2018-09-12 16:43:01

make this game 1080p zoom by default

Dodge · 2018-09-12 17:38:31

Murders, bears, crowns etc are part of the game for a reason, imagine a big city were nothing happens that would be really boring after a certain point

If you REALLY think about the bears you will understand , btw the bears not able to kill you when you're on a tile with objects is OP imo

The curse system is here to compensate the fact that you can be reborn infinitly and start griefing again sometimes even in the same village that you were before, it is not meant to stop the griefing, otherwise there would be no killing, cutting good trees would be impossible, no constructions at all etc.

Does that sound like a fun game?

But some forms of griefing are different, trashing all the tiles with milkweed seeds for example doesnt add to the entertainment of the city it is only annoying, being able to remove the fences with one shovel hit is one of the reasons we have these ugly trash pit pens because griefer would effortlessly destroy every pens in every city

Last edited by Dodge (2018-09-12 17:39:11)

Stylingirl · 2018-09-12 21:53:19

I wouldn’t be opposed to having a temporary ban for players (maybe like a week) whose curse score reaches a certain height (ex. 50 curses) because you know the only thing they want to do is not cause saucy drama, but destroy other’s fun. In my opinion, just because they bought this game doesn’t mean they should be immune to punishment.

Griefing will not go away, but I think we should take more actions to restrain them instead of leaving it solely up to the players, who protect cursed babies and covet being cursed for the sake of being special.

I really do hope you actually do something more than just making a marked baby more noticeable otherwise this situation is not going to get better.

sanchez · 2018-09-12 23:13:12

Stylingirl wrote:

I wouldn’t be opposed to having a temporary ban for players (maybe like a week) whose curse score reaches a certain height (ex. 50 curses) because you know the only thing they want to do is not cause saucy drama, but destroy other’s fun. In my opinion, just because they bought this game doesn’t mean they should be immune to punishment.
Griefing will not go away, but I think we should take more actions to restrain them instead of leaving it solely up to the players, who protect cursed babies and covet being cursed for the sake of being special.
I really do hope you actually do something more than just making a marked baby more noticeable otherwise this situation is not going to get better.

Well then dispatch of them then dispatch of the baby? No? Just me?

karltown_veteran · 2018-09-12 23:52:30

pein wrote:

learn to fight and dont be a pussy
you already bitch about something that was nerfed twice
also there isnt only you in the world, imagine reverse situation
the griefer just kills you even easier if you cannot handle with the ultra nerf slowdown

*Pein casually throws a handful of mucho-macho-ego around*

Last edited by karltown_veteran (2018-09-12 23:52:39)

Anshin · 2018-09-13 00:00:01

Relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNxJVTJleE

GreatShawn · 2018-09-13 00:18:28

I still remember once that a murderer with no name (Which makes her invincible to curses) kill a lot of people in my village with a knife, and she runs away every time. But the problem is, our town is pretty advanced, but i see no files lying around, so i started to wonder if she hid the file in her backpack, which also makes us unable to fight back. I got killed a few times by her, and each time i respawns in that village. I got angrier and angrier, so i decided to fight back with bows and arrows. I made an arrow, but then I ran out of ropes for the bow, so i went out to forage milkweed, but I forgot the arrow on the ground. by the time I got back, The griever got hold of the arrow, and she killed my again with distractions of dialogues. That's when my game time ran out(I'm an asian kid, and you should know what asian parents are like) I couldn't sleep in the night (I know this is a bit silly, but hey, I'm an emotional person), thinking about how i should have killed that griever and how the game could stop greivers, and I came up with a few ideas:

-Armor that breaks after being attacked a few times, so it is temporary protection, but you probalbly won't get attacked that many times anyway. And it is not like you can put on armor on your own, you need other people's help to put it on.
-A new "Kill count" system so that if someone in one life killed more than ten people they get a longer cursed dialogue.
-Some sort of poison that you can make people drink, but can be cured by drinking an antidote. Also, you need other people to feed you antidote since you might as well be too weak to drink it on your own.

Plz accept my ideas.

Turnipseed · 2018-09-13 00:29:22

I caught a few curses last time i killed a cursed baby... just sayin

Broken_Milk · 2018-09-13 01:09:09

Personally, I don’t think players should ever be punished by the game itself, but rather by the other players. Obviously, this hasn’t worked so far, but I feel like it could be solved with some changes.
1. The curse system is too weak, I feel like black text should happen at 8 curses and a visible mark should happen at 12. HOWEVER, we should keep it fair for the greifers in that the mark can be hidden by an article of clothing.
2. More ways to prevent, address, and recover from a griefing. A lot of the complaints in this thread could be solved with more ways to guard a town (Armour, guard tower etc.) Even though these COULD be used by griefers, it’s up to the players to use them wisely, and if they can do that, they can fight against any griefers. There should also be recovery options, like tree planting, flint and steel, stackable small items, etc. This way, the players have a way to deal with griefers without relying on the system itself, but skilled griefers can still do some damage and cause the drama we all so crave.
Basically, I’m saying that if the players craft the right stuff and are smart about their laws and knives, no newbie greifer should be able to take out their civ. But, if the players are careless and the griefers know what they’re doing, there should be a real threat and chance for extinction.
(P.S) I think that obesity/underweight ness should come in some update, more for flavor and to represent the state of the town rather than greifer identification.
(P.S x2) I think once guards are really implemented with the addition of armor and other related things there will cease to be such an overflow of griefers, and the ones that still exist will provide interest instead of game ruining experiences.

Broken_Milk · 2018-09-13 01:16:38

Oof, and I forgot to add: Training dummies! That’d be so cool, so that the elder guards can actually train younger ones without having to go out and stab an afk guy or something, lol. And on another, completely unrelated side note, roofs would also be cool. They could add insulation and you could only see inside the building if you were under the roof.

Redram · 2018-09-13 01:43:38

I get the notion of not trying to eliminate griefers. Humans are the most dangerous and exciting prey after all, the game would probably be pretty boring without human challenge. But I don't get a lot of the rationalizations I see.

Curses make up for the fact you're can't reincarnate irl? And what do the weapon being glued to your hand, and the slowdown make up for? Those are entirely artificial mechanics. They're there to give players a chance against murderers - who otherwise could kill ten people huddled around a fire in seconds - pure and simple.

Not going to address specific grief vectors because there's others? Yes, yes everyone knows problems get better - certainly don't get worse - when you ignore them. There's some pretty simple solutions to a lot of the single-issue problems, and regardless if the griefers can do other things, you're helping the regular players because they have fewer vectors to have to monitor. You reduce their stress. The idea of having a few 'ancient' oaks and other useful trees here and there is very good. It solves that grief vector and doesn't cause any other problems that cacti don't already cause. It's not like it's an entire tech tree or something. 1 art asset. Way better for the game than bloody notes and useless railroads.

But ok, Jason doesn't want to solve the problems for us. That's good, a laudible idea, and fitting with the game. But give us more tools to solve the problem ourselves. Weave the tools into the game better. You'll get way more "interesting" mileage than you will from a Benny-Hill-esque pie chase.

I've proposed this elsewhere, but I'll do it again here: give players the ability to lock a specific griefer out of their town's vicinity. But it requires preparations, and requires vigilance and tradition. You can make an ossuary (rare materials - limestone or gold). You can put a player's bones in it. You sprinkle something on it. 'consecrating' it or whatever. Now that specific player cannot spawn within X000 tiles of that ossuary. But you have to regenerate the power every so often. Maybe every 100 years or whatever - sprinkle it again with the special sauce. This is different from cursing in that the target isn't affected in a visual way. So they can be born elsewhere and stealth grief, so long as they did not also get cursed. It's a specific solution for a specific town. Make it hard, and reward the town by letting them keep *that 1 griefer* out as long as they can maintain the replenishment of the ossuary. If they fail for too long, the bones turn to dust and the griefer can return.

What you've created here is another job, more use for resources (lets face it, gold's uses are lame), and a path for lore and legend to be passed down. Is this not more interesting than a pie chase? More interesting than more stabbing? It's a different kind of punishment from a curse, and it helps to nerf the ability for griefers to keep coming back to target that one town. It doesn't keep them from playing any other part of the game, or even mark them. That's a separate function that curses perform. Also ossurarys should be something only obtainable up the tech tree. Imagine a building full of the ossuraries of the damned! Imagine stories of corrupt Deacon's who inter the bones of the innocent! Can he convince following generations to maintain the curse on the poor innocents? (who btw, rather than being black-speeched and having to suffer through that everywhere they go for awhile simply have to play other towns for awhile) It's not Jason solving the problem, it's giving people another tool that they have to master to help address (not eradicate) the problem. They can use it well, or use it poorly, no different from a knife. If a griefer gets ossuaried in too many cities, they may end up only spawning on the margins of society.

Might also be interesting if cursed peoples' murdered corpses had black blood. And this black blood can be used on an ossuary to fuel it for an extra-long time (1000 years?). Taking the blood makes the bones not able to be placed in an ossuary though. You can't extra-damn a cursed person with their own blood. That may get into a weird scenario of people intentionally being cursed so their favorite town can use their blood. But I'm not really sure that'd be worth it just for a few extra hours. There's a lot of griefers out there after all.

Just, think outside the box. Curses is not the only/best idea out there. Curses is a across-the-board short-term visible-to-everyone thing, ossuary would be location-specific maybe-long-term no-visible consequences thing. Different tools. A 100% increase in available tools. Which should help.

Last edited by Redram (2018-09-13 01:43:57)

Anshin · 2018-09-13 01:48:33

No magic.
Social cults and religions, sure. But no actual magic game play.

Doctor Steve · 2018-09-13 06:40:35

I like that people can grief because it adds some danger to the game aside from accidentally stepping on a snake that's hidden behind a tree.

If we were to ban griefers, which I don't think is a good idea, the only conflict in OHOL would be player versus environment which, although a big part of the game, can be pretty one dimensional.

With the addition of a griefer we suddenly have a game where the player is pitted against other players AND the environment. A lot of games do this.

However, griefers add a third aspect of conflict-- internal conflict. Having to decide whether or not to kill someone for their crimes, or whether or not to let a cursed baby live 'just in case they redeem themselves', gives us a little extra conflict to spice up our games.

Not to mention the thrill of the chase and the satisfaction of revenge!

All in all, I think Jason is right in not doing too much more to get rid of griefers-- he has the right idea, and I adore the mechanic that makes the players responsible for making their own societal rules and enforcing them. It's part of the legacy you pass on, as much as farm or a building is. Each village is different in how it deals with griefers, and it's that diversity of culture (and not the day-to-day grind of farming) that really makes this game unique. He shouldn't have to change the way the game works in such an immense way JUST because some people are sore losers.

I'm not saying I've never been SUPER pissed off at times because someone was griefing up a storm in a village I worked hard to help build, but that's just part of the game. This is the first online mulitplayer game I've EVER played, and I understand now why people are so nervous about Fallout76 coming out LOL

Anyways, my suggestion is for villagers to talk more to each other. Maybe develop factions, or class systems even? Like, anyone wearing a rabbit hat is X and anyone wearing a wool hat is Y and no hat is Z, that kind of thing.

I would like for there to be more diverse weapons. Maybe even a lance that can be wielded on horseback or used to kill a horse that someone is riding? Also, this could turn into jousting tournaments, and I think we can all agree how cool that would be.

pein · 2018-09-13 07:35:56

karltown_veteran wrote:

pein wrote:
learn to fight and dont be a pussy
you already bitch about something that was nerfed twice
also there isnt only you in the world, imagine reverse situation
the griefer just kills you even easier if you cannot handle with the ultra nerf slowdown
*Pein casually throws a handful of mucho-macho-ego around*

mucho mucho times people complain then jason finally gives it to them
he actually complained about something that was nerfed 3 times without thinking on both sides of the suggestion
doesnt solve anything, the 100th suggestion that sounds like 'make it easier to kill others who annoy me' without thinking about that it will be easier for them as well

well we need to go into fantasy land, this is a game after all
the community has to have some power to stop a griefer
but shouldnt be too powerful, so it gives a chance to the griefer as well
but it makes it too annoying, too time consuming to do so
general rule is that a griefer wont want to spend more time ruining something, that you spend fixing it
why should have a chance at all?
maybe people start a crusade on wrong player or from different reason
in real life there are also assholes, who try to piss off others as long as they know they can get away with it
so when the griefer is discovered, his job should be much harder

my idea: a guard should be entrusted for a limited time, this could be renewed from time to time
5 people (or 66% of city population so eves got a chance against a rebelling kid) needs to vote on a guard
the guard has an overseeing effect, this slows down the target player every time its on his screen (or certaain range), and an indicator about the direction of the player (not a distance), also if its alive or not. also the guard could disarm the player, knock out anything from his hand, this requires reaching him. this makes the griefers job harder, so has three options: kill the guard while having a slow down effect, run out of the zone, and maybe try other side of the city or ask a friend to do something for him, like a distraction, taking back something (maybe people would make a guard to hide gear or a crown).

if its griefing for the fun of it, he would get bored running slow and being distracted so he would quit or move out
if its unfair targeting, he could get help or negotiate
if its a reason why someone hates him, he could retaliate and stop the negative effect, if its a certain goal or person, this might change his stance toward the city
i dont see a problem if two people got a dispute as long as they can settle between each other
is annoying but its not really a problem when someone griefs behind you, its kinda your fault too that you dont notice
the real problem when someone trolling in middle of the city and just runs away when its noticed, then comes back. having a job and guarding is hard and stressful, even if you are prepared to deal with him, he can choose to go away for 5 min and keep you in stress and waste your time. someone who only focuses to steal stuff, hide and wait a moment when you are defenseless is too easy.
you could have multiple guards or opposite side guards as long as you can vote for them. each adult could cast a vote for 10 min? this would stop someone to abuse the new powers, or use indefinitely if others die.
this would carry the risk that the guard gonna be killed. but also for the griefer that he cannot act freely as the guard gonna notice him, so couldnt do too much harm. and also would prevent multiple people bulling someone for the fun of it.
it would still require cooperation.

boggers · 2018-09-13 08:19:30

Redram wrote:

ossuaries

I like the idea in principal but building a special structure for it - some people will take pride in having an ossuary dedicated to them in every town.

It should be hard to set up and easy to maintain while still being low key. Eg. a red rose bush planted on a buried grave that works as long as it kept watered. Red roses would be impractical though, since it takes as long to make a red rose seed is as takes an unburied grave to despawn.

Maybe a new flower with specific planting rules and tech tree that make it both resistant to overuse and impossible to prevent. eg, cutting must be taken from rare wild plant, wild plant cant be removed and spawns a new cutting five minutes after picking. Cuttings despawn in 30 seconds if not kept in a bowl of fresh dirt which can't be kept in a basket pack or cart.

Daisies would be thematically perfect.

Destrucity · 2018-09-13 08:53:24

If your game relies on griefers to be interesting, then there is a fundamental flaw with the game.

Last edited by Destrucity (2018-09-13 08:54:01)

Dodge · 2018-09-13 09:07:43

@pein "'make it easier to kill others who annoy me' without thinking about that it will be easier for them as well"

like i said before i dont care if griefers can also kill easier, all im saying is dropping your knife on the floor when your intention was to kill is annoying and illogical

if you make the killing easier you could also reduce the slow time after murder, this way a murderer can escape more easily but at the same time be more prone to get killed,

so it would reward people that react fast to a situation and not people that calculated the exact tile to use the knife on because the killer is running and you might drop your knife if you dont aim the exact tile, not counting the lag

this way it would in fact a buff instead of a nerf on "something that was nerfed 3 time

@Destrucity it's the spice but not the main ingredient, the game is already good without it, but it adds to it.

Last edited by Dodge (2018-09-13 09:12:36)

pein · 2018-09-13 09:23:16

the ossuary wont work
while most griefers are in towns, i seen plenty in eve camps and on gen 3-6 when you dont have tools or pen but people already destroy the progress

the other problem is with bones
once someone dead, you can just take any bone and put inside it, even the eves bones
someone will put all the bones there just because he can
or if its small someone will remove the bones to put someone else there
or a kid will put your bones there cause once you hurt his feelings

One Hour One Life Forums

#51 2018-09-12 15:41:52

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#52 2018-09-12 15:55:02

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#53 2018-09-12 16:07:03

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#54 2018-09-12 16:08:26

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#55 2018-09-12 16:15:38

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#56 2018-09-12 16:33:13

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#57 2018-09-12 16:36:18

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#58 2018-09-12 16:43:01

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#59 2018-09-12 17:38:31

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#60 2018-09-12 21:53:19

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#61 2018-09-12 23:13:12

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#62 2018-09-12 23:52:30

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#63 2018-09-13 00:00:01

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#64 2018-09-13 00:18:28

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#65 2018-09-13 00:29:22

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#66 2018-09-13 01:09:09

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#67 2018-09-13 01:16:38

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#68 2018-09-13 01:43:38

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#69 2018-09-13 01:48:33

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#70 2018-09-13 06:40:35

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#71 2018-09-13 07:35:56

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#72 2018-09-13 08:19:30

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#73 2018-09-13 08:53:24

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#74 2018-09-13 09:07:43

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#75 2018-09-13 09:23:16

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