Stop overdeveloping the land!

shoukanjuu · 2018-03-16 02:44:15

Frequently, I spawn as an Eve and discover settlements with lots of advanced tech…handcarts, deep wells (always dry), sometimes buildings with floors and even doors! But they will inevitably be lacking some necessary resources, like milkweed, sure, but…MORE basic. Like a single stone (they've all been used to make wells), making all the wheat in the world useless. Or branch which can thresh the abundant wheat (all the trees have been chopped down), etc. It is so very frustrating when so many advanced items are available, but due to the usually abundant resources all being spoiled…because people could just not STOP.

Oh, and I think I've firmly moved into the anti-carrot farmer camp. It is so, @#$%ing pointless. Most recently, I was an Eve in an advanced (but blighted) settlement, and I was trying to make some compost, start cultivating some wheat and get some pies going. There were abundant furs, but no milkweed (I finally found one hidden behind a tree). There were plates and bolds galore, but no wheat (I never actually found any wild wheat for seeds). I probably could have made a lot of progress over my lifetime, but unfortunately three naked Eves found me, and…well, that went the carrot stockpiles, and of course there was a population explosion…and they would NOT stop interfering with what I was trying to do. Even when I would a couple of screens from their top priority—naked carrot farming—after bringing back a cartload of reeds, and then going off to find a bowl of berries…when I came back, the reeds had been made into baskets, even though there were dozens of empty baskets available. Because people just cannot STOP themselves.

Goldra · 2018-03-16 03:22:58

Pies aren't worth it because of use of water--you can make them in moderation, at best, though you should be ensuring that nobody's screwing over the farms before you try to pursue baking. Carrots, meanwhile, are more efficient with water, and so are DEFINITELY more useful.

Also, of course they're going to take your stuff. You're just leaving it out in the open, and not to mention with nakeds; a new player is going to think "more storage=easier access to stored resources," or something along those lines, and so they're going to spam baskets because it's easy. And, even if you had been doing something else (like getting rabbits to make waterskins, etc.) people are still going to take whatever furs you bring in, assuming the rare situation where there's more milkweed than fur, and use them for whatever they want--it's in the collective colony stockpile, and nobody seems like they're doing anything with that resource, so why not? With a situation like trying to make compost, though, there's an easy solution: just make the recipe-specific item first. When a berry/carrot bowl has been mashed, there's nothing to do with it but make compost, unless whoever happens to find it goes off and puts it somewhere random outside of the colony. Then you can go and gather a reed, and not have to worry if it's going to be used by someone else, because you're already using it.

Though, if you had told them that you were going to make compost and they still made baskets, all I can say is that village deserved to die out from that lack of soil. Still, the solution above still applies.

shoukanjuu · 2018-03-16 04:00:09

Goldra wrote:

unless whoever happens to find it goes off and puts it somewhere random

This exact thing happened. I had a bowl of mashed berries and carrot, off more than a screen's distance from any development, along with a basket of filled water pouches, and… Someone put it…wherever. I found it by chance, later on. But after coming back with reeds, and having to go look for more berries, the reeds were gone, so…

Goldra wrote:

if you had told them that you were going to make compost and they still made baskets, all I can say is that village deserved to die out from that lack of soil.

I tried (more than once), but at this point, there were a half-dozen people running around all over the place, so who knows?

Actually, the number of times I had to spend several years of my life looking for where the sharp (or blunt) stone had gotten off to…exacerbated, of course, by the lack of local resources. There were…at least 3 DRY deep wells, and 4 DRY shallow wells, so all the stones in a wide swath around the settlement had been taken.

I've got a new rule, though…no babies, unless you have clothes. If you're naked, your number one priority is clothing yourself. If you're naked—unless you're in an untouched wilderness overflowing with berries…no babies.

DeadEye · 2018-03-16 05:27:48

Goldra wrote:

Pies aren't worth it because of use of water--you can make them in moderation, at best, though you should be ensuring that nobody's screwing over the farms before you try to pursue baking. Carrots, meanwhile, are more efficient with water, and so are DEFINITELY more useful.
Also, of course they're going to take your stuff. You're just leaving it out in the open, and not to mention with nakeds; a new player is going to think "more storage=easier access to stored resources," or something along those lines, and so they're going to spam baskets because it's easy. And, even if you had been doing something else (like getting rabbits to make waterskins, etc.) people are still going to take whatever furs you bring in, assuming the rare situation where there's more milkweed than fur, and use them for whatever they want--it's in the collective colony stockpile, and nobody seems like they're doing anything with that resource, so why not? With a situation like trying to make compost, though, there's an easy solution: just make the recipe-specific item first. When a berry/carrot bowl has been mashed, there's nothing to do with it but make compost, unless whoever happens to find it goes off and puts it somewhere random outside of the colony. Then you can go and gather a reed, and not have to worry if it's going to be used by someone else, because you're already using it.
Though, if you had told them that you were going to make compost and they still made baskets, all I can say is that village deserved to die out from that lack of soil. Still, the solution above still applies.

You're wrong about pies, and I'm going to approximate here as I don't have the exact stats but from playing a ton I can tell you this much.

1 unit of water on a carrot field fills around 2 1/2 adults.

1 unit of water in pies (with only rabbit) fills a good chunk of an adult's bar, I'd take the average there and probably call it 8 adults fed for 1 unit of water.

Therefore 2 units of water (1 field, 1 dough) fills 12 adults with rabbit/carrot pie and the 2 leftover carrots fill 1 adult for 13.

2 units on only a carrot field fills around 5 adults.

So rabbit/carrot pie is probably not as efficient as just using leftover rabbits alone. Just as carrot pie isn't nearly as efficient as only rabbit pie as you're using a good amount of water and time, but I can't speak to the exact value of only carrot pie..I think it's about 1/2 of an adult bar. If you have an abundance of carrot it's more efficient (water wise) to make rabbit/carrot pie.

TL: DR - Rabbit pie fills around 3x the amount of people for the same amount of water used by a single carrot field.

Last edited by DeadEye (2018-03-16 05:45:55)

EaterOfBerries · 2018-03-16 07:01:28

A related point: Don't overfarm carrots!

This is another problem of advanced civs. Everyone has clothes, so needs to eat half as often, but farming habits are not changed. The result? Carrots overflowing the baskets and filling every tile around the farm for miles. Or, even worse, entire fields of carrots going to seed and eating all the soil.

If you have a carrot surplus, don't grow more carrots.

Go! Bwah! · 2018-03-16 08:59:58

EaterOfBerries wrote:

Or, even worse, entire fields of carrots going to seed and eating all the soil.

This annoys me too, but I kinda enjoy how harvest time is a frenetic race against the clock, just like in real life.

yvanhooe · 2018-03-16 11:15:53

Found a nice camp today with milkweed here and there and people knowing when to take them. More got planted, many clothes were made. I started a road leading to an abandoned camp. Maybe we can restart a road network now...

Last edited by yvanhooe (2018-03-16 11:16:04)

shoukanjuu · 2018-03-16 12:32:59

Goldra wrote:

Carrots, meanwhile, are more efficient with water, and so are DEFINITELY more useful.

This is incorrect.

Based on the premise that you're farming long-term, and are farming wheat for the purpose of acquiring the straw necessary for composting, and are using domesticated gooseberry bushes to obtain the berries also required…
…AND taking into consideration the water costs of every point of dependency along the way (i.e., the use of carrots in composting to replace the soil for both the seed row and the wheat row for the next round of composting), and also making a few carrot pies with the "free" wheat obtained in the process of farming for straw…
…raw carrot farming clocks in at 0.2912 water per 8-hunger serving.

As opposed to farming carrots exclusively for carrot pie production, (in this case the straw is "free", with far more than is necessary for composting being produced in the process of farming for wheat)…
…which clocks in at 0.2886 water per 8-hunger serving.

SO

The difference in water-to-food efficiency is negligible, but carrot pies are far preferable to raw carrots, as you can fit 4x the servings in the same space, letting you spend less time going back and forth obtaining food and taking 1/4th the space to store your stockpile.

Either way, if you're naked, it's going to take 4.329-4.368 ponds/wells to keep each naked person fed (assuming they are taking full advantage of each serving).

asterlea · 2018-03-16 16:27:17

Goldra wrote:

When a berry/carrot bowl has been mashed, there's nothing to do with it but make compost, unless whoever happens to find it goes off and puts it somewhere random outside of the colony. Then you can go and gather a reed, and not have to worry if it's going to be used by someone else, because you're already using it.

This isn't true, I had someone swipe my berry/carrot mash to feed a sheep, which then went around eating carrot rows and creating dead babies everywhere and was never actually shorn because there were no shears in the settlement. They can also be used to make berry-carrot pies.

Last edited by asterlea (2018-03-16 16:27:51)

Jadajen · 2018-03-16 17:00:28

DeadEye wrote:

Goldra wrote:
Pies aren't worth it because of use of water--you can make them in moderation, at best, though you should be ensuring that nobody's screwing over the farms before you try to pursue baking. Carrots, meanwhile, are more efficient with water, and so are DEFINITELY more useful.
You're wrong about pies, and I'm going to approximate here as I don't have the exact stats but from playing a ton I can tell you this much.
1 unit of water on a carrot field fills around 2 1/2 adults.
1 unit of water in pies (with only rabbit) fills a good chunk of an adult's bar, I'd take the average there and probably call it 8 adults fed for 1 unit of water.
Therefore 2 units of water (1 field, 1 dough) fills 12 adults with rabbit/carrot pie and the 2 leftover carrots fill 1 adult for 13.
2 units on only a carrot field fills around 5 adults.
So rabbit/carrot pie is probably not as efficient as just using leftover rabbits alone. Just as carrot pie isn't nearly as efficient as only rabbit pie as you're using a good amount of water and time, but I can't speak to the exact value of only carrot pie..I think it's about 1/2 of an adult bar. If you have an abundance of carrot it's more efficient (water wise) to make rabbit/carrot pie.
TL: DR - Rabbit pie fills around 3x the amount of people for the same amount of water used by a single carrot field.

I am pretty sure both of these are wrong. You might want to read this thread about the topic: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=476 (read the whole thing or else you might get the wrong impression)

Carrot-Rabbit is the most efficient food out there right now. And pies are a MUST for a civ to advance. A lot of the late game right now is collecting resources from further off/ making buildings/ getting sheep/ building roads/ connecting colonies/ hunting rabbits/ collecting large carts of water to store in cistern/ hunting for milkweed or wheat or what-have-you.

ALL of these tasks require a backpack with pies in them. Farmers, Children, Elderly, and maybe bakers do not need pies. They have access to carrots. Smiths maybe need pies because their job is time sensitive.

Some key points on the thread i linked:

>water is key variable in determining population that can be supported

>rabbit-carrot pie is most water efficient. Although it is part of an intensive process. Carrot farm is second
note:wheat farm is straw for compost, pies more specially compact (four in one)

>compost is a must for all civs to function (learn how to do it)

>water is a commodity, so is time and freedom to work.

>a diversity of food supply is best, rather than mooned supply. e.g. carrot farm and bakery and eating wild goose berries if you are traveling. All of these support the colony. Nearby wild goose berries have a serious impact on a colonies survival! They can help a starving one recover and a flourishing one compost and more.

>WEAR!!!MAKE!!!SHARE!!!CLOTH!!! Cloths are arguably the key indicator if a farm will survive. If you see a bunch of nudes and no one is making cloths/farming milkweed/ getting rabbits. You will fail. End of story, there isn't enough resources in a compact area to support a colony large enough to develop, unless players are wearing cloths.

>My person advice: If you find an abandoned village that has no hope of ever functioning because a lack of resources, recycle it. OR micro farm it. Turn it into a tailor station, or compost station, or bakery, etc. this can take a burden of main colony, but be sure to specialize and bring your products back.

Last edited by Jadajen (2018-03-16 17:01:08)

Xuhybrid · 2018-03-16 19:43:19

Goldra wrote:

Pies aren't worth it because of use of water--you can make them in moderation, at best, though you should be ensuring that nobody's screwing over the farms before you try to pursue baking. Carrots, meanwhile, are more efficient with water, and so are DEFINITELY more useful.
Also, of course they're going to take your stuff. You're just leaving it out in the open, and not to mention with nakeds; a new player is going to think "more storage=easier access to stored resources," or something along those lines, and so they're going to spam baskets because it's easy. And, even if you had been doing something else (like getting rabbits to make waterskins, etc.) people are still going to take whatever furs you bring in, assuming the rare situation where there's more milkweed than fur, and use them for whatever they want--it's in the collective colony stockpile, and nobody seems like they're doing anything with that resource, so why not? With a situation like trying to make compost, though, there's an easy solution: just make the recipe-specific item first. When a berry/carrot bowl has been mashed, there's nothing to do with it but make compost, unless whoever happens to find it goes off and puts it somewhere random outside of the colony. Then you can go and gather a reed, and not have to worry if it's going to be used by someone else, because you're already using it.
Though, if you had told them that you were going to make compost and they still made baskets, all I can say is that village deserved to die out from that lack of soil. Still, the solution above still applies.

Tell me how turning 3 carrots into 12 carrots worth of food for 1 flour and 1 water isn't worth it? Are you stupid?

ned · 2018-03-16 20:07:59

Xuhybrid wrote:

Goldra wrote:
Pies aren't worth it because of use of water--you can make them in moderation, at best, though you should be ensuring that nobody's screwing over the farms before you try to pursue baking. Carrots, meanwhile, are more efficient with water, and so are DEFINITELY more useful.
Though, if you had told them that you were going to make compost and they still made baskets, all I can say is that village deserved to die out from that lack of soil. Still, the solution above still applies.
Tell me how turning 3 carrots into 12 carrots worth of food for 1 flour and 1 water isn't worth it? Are you stupid?

Hey, that's a little harsh. Chill out, please. Goldra is referencing my thread on sustainability. Water is a large bottleneck in any farming system. The water demands needed to grow wheat and compost to make sustainable carrot-only pies are what make them less water-efficient than sustainable carrots farms. As I and others have mentioned in responses to that same thread, adding rabbits or gooseberries can make those pies more water-efficient. (though you need 20 wild gooseberry bushes or 30 rabbit holes nearby to match the same food output as an optimal carrot farm).

Keep in mind, too, that the cost of dough from domestic wheat is 1 soil and 2 water. When you're not sustainable, you will quickly run out of soil and possibly doom your civilization. With the short life-spans, though, you may not be around to see it.

ShadowsSoldier · 2018-03-17 01:00:10

You guys thinking that pies are the way to go for a DEVELOPING SOCIETY are what is causing most of these dead civilizations!

Yes, pies provide a lot of food content, however the water that it takes to create the wheat, the compost to renew the wheat and the dough make it vastly more expensive.

Pies should only be used once you have a STABLE source of food, which right now is carrots.

The problem with carrots right now isn't the food itself, its the farmers, whether they neglect it, or overproduce, or under-produce, or forget to leave rows for seeds.
If you make 10 rows, 9 for carrots, 1 for seeds, then you can reseed all 9 of those rows and reseed you seed row after using compost to create it again.

For those of you who think pies are the way to go, do the math yourself or read: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=476 like the man above me stated, its very simple math.

The benefit that pies have are late game, considering what we have so far, they are great once your settlement is established and expanding, but guess what you still have to make sure you have an ample surplus of carrots.

What the OP said is true, rushing through the development of a civilization is what causes the failures, seriously guys just crack down on farming until you have the food to not starve, its not that hard lol.

shoukanjuu · 2018-03-17 01:18:43

ShadowsSoldier wrote:

the water that it takes to create the wheat, the compost to renew the wheat and the dough makes it vastly more expensive.

No, this is untrue. Assuming you're growing wheat and domestic berries for composting, only using carrots for pies (and compost) requires 0.2885 water per 8-hunger serving of pie, while farming for raw carrot consumption (and only making pies with the threshed wheat that's a by-product of raising wheat for the straw to compost) costs 0.2912 water per 8-hunger serving of raw carrots (plus bonus pies).

0.2885, vs 0.2912. It's a negligible difference, so making (carrot-only) pies isn't significantly MORE water-efficient, but it certainly isn't LESS, plus you get all the extra benefits of having pies (1/4 the storage space, being able to go further afield without having to waste space on food, etc.)

In addition, the benefit of making pies is that you are spreading the work around, instead of having a huge, crazy carrot farm. What typically happens is that people can't harvest fast enough (because they're running out of space to store carrots, even if they have a bunch of handcarts and dozens and dozens of baskets, so too many carrots go to seed, which reduces available space even MORE…

I was just in a decent settlement, and they had…maybe about a dozen carrot plots, and there were SO. MANY. @#$%ING. SEEDS. Even after I put a stop to any more seed production, and spent nearly half my life planting with the existing seed stock, we STILL had two ENTIRE handcarts full of seeds. That was enough seeds to plant ALL of our existing seed plots 4 times over! Instead of frantically trying to keep up with the carrot harvest, we NEEDED to cultivate the wheat and start making pies…with the ABUNDANT raw rabbits available (dozens). But because the MOMENT a plot of dirt was available, people would IMMEDIATELY replant and water, when there were STILL carrots needing to be harvested, nobody had time to do anything else…what with all the wasted time of trying to find a place to put the carrots, and the confusion of people picking up what you were trying to put down, etc. The rule should be harvest first, plant second (to get rid of seeds taking up storage space), and water third.

Obviously, pies take a bit more setup. If you're starting from scratch, you start with carrots. But you need to move to pies as soon as you're able to while maintaining enough carrots to keep you going. Because pies mean a longer range, and that makes it easier to hunt rabbits, and that makes it easier to keep everybody dressed, lowering food consumption. Because be it raw carrots or carrot pies, needing ~4-5 ponds/wells per naked person is just not feasible. It only SEEMS like it's working, when you're starting out with fresh ponds.

ned · 2018-03-17 05:38:02

shoukanjuu wrote:

ShadowsSoldier wrote:
the water that it takes to create the wheat, the compost to renew the wheat and the dough makes it vastly more expensive.
No, this untrue ...
0.2885, vs 0.2912.

Hm. My numbers gave me the opposite answer (given that its a 1% difference, I'm inclined to believe there is a rounding error on my part, but I'm a bit burnt out on this problem; plus, not much a difference either way). You're right in saying that this isn't a vast difference in water efficiency. The primary point of why carrots are better is that it's easier to set up and track. You track how much water youre putting in, and it can approximate a specific output. So, shadow is right that early on, pies cause more distractions than anything else.

shoukanjuu wrote:

I was just in a decent settlement, and they had…maybe about a dozen carrot plots, and there were SO. MANY. @#$%ING. SEEDS. Even after I put a stop to any more seed production, and spent nearly half my life planting with the existing seed stock, we STILL had two ENTIRE handcarts full of seeds.

Yeah, this is ridiculous. The most efficient carrot farm model uses only 5 plots at once (though using 10 plots without doubling input can increase yield by roughly 20%). The important point is to optimize the carrot farming so that it does the heavy lifting for you. Obviously the person before you didn't understand that there's more to life than carrot farming. Haha.

Last edited by ned (2018-03-17 05:46:16)

Tebe · 2018-03-17 08:27:52

Take a look around any settlement you're born into... If it isn't built in a really smart location - that is, very near a pond-rich marsh, with proximity to fertile green forest (and not too far from a prairie plump with rabbit families), then it may be seriously worth considering packing up and moving on, or spending your life teaching good farming technique and acquiring clothes for the doomed town. I've seen so many settlements built near a paltry water supply that there's never going to be much happening. It will become an outpost at best between better lands.

It's all about the land. I made this point before, but for anyone who's played Sid Meier's Civilization, the early game is all about picking a great spot for your founding city. And really all of your new cities henceforth. You have to search them out and find the really good spots. The Edens in this game have lots ponds foremost, and very close to green country with lots of wildberries and junipers and branch-giving trees (especially maples). And also proximity to rabbit-rich prairie. If you ever spot a location like this as an Eve, ye gods, start a new settlement. Your brief little farmplot life could end up becoming something more long-term sustainable.

As for pies, they are amazing at any point in the game so long as the person carrying them (preferably in a backpack) can make great use of their time away from the core settlement. Boosting clothes and stockpiling important resources from farther out can be incredible. you may be gone, invisible to the colony, but when you show up with a handcart (or even a backpack and a basket) full of crucial goodies on a couple of pies for fuel, you've turned those relatively inexpensive pies into something very valuable indeed.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-03-16 02:44:15

Stop overdeveloping the land!

#2 2018-03-16 03:22:58

Re: Stop overdeveloping the land!

#3 2018-03-16 04:00:09

Re: Stop overdeveloping the land!

#4 2018-03-16 05:27:48

Re: Stop overdeveloping the land!

#5 2018-03-16 07:01:28

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#6 2018-03-16 08:59:58

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#7 2018-03-16 11:15:53

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#8 2018-03-16 12:32:59

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#9 2018-03-16 16:27:17

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#10 2018-03-16 17:00:28

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#11 2018-03-16 19:43:19

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#12 2018-03-16 20:07:59

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#13 2018-03-17 01:00:10

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#14 2018-03-17 01:18:43

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#15 2018-03-17 05:38:02

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#16 2018-03-17 08:27:52

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