Pain of the Iron Run

MultiLife · 2018-11-17 19:44:28

I spent two lives to scan badlands and take pictures: I believe the nerf on ground iron was too much. I still believe so after 2h of running in badlands.

Unnamed man, 2nd gen:
Started to explore at 8 years old.
Found six veins in his life (8-60), only running and eating wild food.
1st vein: ? years old (picture lost)
2nd vein: 20 years old
3rd vein: 28 years old
4th vein: 33 years old
5th vein: 45 years old
6th vein: 53 years old

Iron vein discovering intervals of
? min (no screenshot of 1st vein, 8 years old->? years old)
? min (? years old-20 years old)
8 min
5 min
12 min
8min
of walking.

Bill Cosby III, 2nd gen:
Started to explore at 4 years old.
Found 10 veins in his life (4-55, lag spike starved him), only running and eating wild food.
1st vein: 9 years old
2nd vein: 15 years old
3rd vein: 16 years old (same badland as 2nd vein)
4th vein: 26 years old
5th vein: 27 years old
6th vein: 29 years old
7th vein: 33 years old
8th vein: 38 years old
9th vein: 38 years old (same badland as 8th vein)
10th vein: 53 years old

Iron vein discovering intervals of
5 min (4 years old->9 years old)
6 min
1 min
10 min
1 min
2 min
4 min
5 min
0 min
15 min
of walking.

Double iron vein badlands found: 2. Commonly 0 veins or rarely 1.
Estimated average of ground ore in a badland area: 4.
Even if a vein was found, the scarce ground ore would make it useless due to needing so many tools (ground ore) to mine it.

Take into consideration:
zoom out mod on, no other responsibilities, no camp, wandering aimlessly instead of surroundings of a camp (in a normal scenario you would be looking through nearby badlands, not just any badland like I did as I ended up far).
I went one-way, in a normal iron hauling scenario you go two-ways to get it back to camp. This exhausts resources like wild foods on the way.

Important! In order to get a camp up and get a pick and a mine, we need to gather and smith at least 8 ores while keeping the camp alive. And find an iron vein without dying. And be close enough to make the runs. And not fail smithing. And have nobody hide a tool. And have people use scrap metal. And have iron runners survive the runs (animals, starving). And pass on their knowledge of iron.

I believe the scarce ground iron ore is putting a very high bar for surviving for young towns and Eve camps. The random generation is also upping the odds of not finding enough ore in time to sustain a young town. The differing uses of tools also lessen scrap metal availability. And scrap metal uses two broken steel tools, so every time we lose one ore in the process when we smelt scrap metal. You may easily have to go through three large badlands to get to 8+ ores for all tools when working towards just one vein (add return trips to that too). And due to RNG, you will most likely go through way more badlands instead, with no quarantee of them even being close enough, or hold ore at all. And let's not forget biome jumping animals and other fun things.

Pictures of badlands, scattered throughout their lives:
Unnamed man:

Bill Cosby III:

Looks bad imo. Just ridiculous... I'd never find enough without the mod.
I eagerly await for A. ground iron ore spawn buff, B. more ways to get iron.
Mines should have floors instead of giving out everything at once, and they shouldn't collapse randomly, unless it's something that can be fixed.

Last edited by MultiLife (2018-11-17 23:56:49)

Joseph Stalin · 2018-11-17 20:15:46

what mod has that overlay

Lily · 2018-11-17 20:20:06

I say this in pretty much all these iron threads, hoping Jason will say it. The formula for determining an area of a circle is pi times R squared. He figured there was 3000 iron within a 5 minute walk, and thought that it sounded like too much. However, a 5 minute walk is a massive area. Even covering the radius of a 1 minute walk in every direction, would take longer than an entire person's life span.

Also the other issue is that vein iron is harder to get at. There needs to be enough laying around for newbies to get the stuff needed to actually get to the veins. Reducing the number of veins is fine, but the loose stuff needs to be easier to get.

pein · 2018-11-17 20:43:41

Lily wrote:

I say this in pretty much all these iron threads, hoping Jason will say it. The formula for determining an area of a circle is pi times R squared. He figured there was 3000 iron within a 5 minute walk, and thought that it sounded like too much. However, a 5 minute walk is a massive area. Even covering the radius of a 1 minute walk in every direction, would take longer than an entire person's life span.
Also the other issue is that vein iron is harder to get at. There needs to be enough laying around for newbies to get the stuff needed to actually get to the veins. Reducing the number of veins is fine, but the loose stuff needs to be easier to get.

well i found a vein just above camp which is lucky
would take like 2 lifetime to make a road there, if not doing with cart, full time just extending a road others started
obviously take 1 min to go there if you know where it is but first time takes like 10 min to go around in circles
make the mine, get it home or tell someone, half of your life

Lily · 2018-11-17 21:11:11

You know what we need? Flags or markers you can plant to designate areas, kind of like the home marker but only shows people within 5-10 screens or something of the target when they walk by. That way someone could run around exploring the area around a town and mark all the potential future mines, ponds, or whatever. It would still take your entire life exploring to find stuff, but at least you know the next generation will have a lot easier of a time finding what you marked.

MultiLife · 2018-11-17 22:20:02

Lily wrote:

You know what we need? Flags or markers you can plant to designate areas, kind of like the home marker but only shows people within 5-10 screens or something of the target when they walk by. That way someone could run around exploring the area around a town and mark all the potential future mines, ponds, or whatever. It would still take your entire life exploring to find stuff, but at least you know the next generation will have a lot easier of a time finding what you marked.

I've always liked the idea of trails. But I don't know how to implement those. Hunting trails and such, those are very real things. I'd like landmarks or flags or some easier to make arrow shaped signs. You could rotate the arrow in directions like NW, N, NE, E etc. Then a life of a mapper/explorer/pathfinder/trailmaker would be a nice task, a special profession.

Last edited by MultiLife (2018-11-17 22:23:36)

Starknight_One · 2018-11-17 22:51:24

MultiLife wrote:

Lily wrote:
You know what we need? Flags or markers you can plant to designate areas, kind of like the home marker but only shows people within 5-10 screens or something of the target when they walk by. That way someone could run around exploring the area around a town and mark all the potential future mines, ponds, or whatever. It would still take your entire life exploring to find stuff, but at least you know the next generation will have a lot easier of a time finding what you marked.
I've always liked the idea of trails. But I don't know how to implement those. Hunting trails and such, those are very real things. I'd like landmarks or flags or some easier to make arrow shaped signs. You could rotate the arrow in directions like NW, N, NE, E etc. Then a life of a mapper/explorer/pathfinder/trailmaker would be a nice task, a special profession.

I tend to lay out branches and seeds as arrows pointing to my camp. I don't need them with a home marker, but anyone else who stumbles into the area would be directed to a place that should have food. I guess I could do the same to point to things... or I can just backtrack the arrows.

..... Like this.
.

MultiLife · 2018-11-17 23:49:19

Joseph Stalin wrote:

what mod has that overlay

AWBZ's/Obs' mod with zooming and all kinds of good stuff. You can search it through threads. I made one recent post talking about it as I had issues with it (my fault though, mod is fine).

Catfive · 2018-11-18 00:11:32

Joseph Stalin wrote:

what mod has that overlay

awbz

https://github.com/Awbz/OneLife

Booklat1 · 2018-11-18 09:38:37

MultiLife wrote:

Looks bad imo. Just ridiculous... I'd never find enough without the mod.
I eagerly await for A. ground iron ore spawn buff, B. more ways to get iron.
Mines should have floors instead of giving out everything at once, and they shouldn't collapse randomly, unless it's something that can be fixed.

Ive talked to you about this before multi, I think you know I agree with you on the bigger picture (ground ores take a lot of work to gather, mines could use some reword, lie having a middle tier), but I dont think your tests prove your point at all and for reasons you've said yourself. What you did wasnt a "how much iron can I haul back?" test or "can i get at least 8 iron?". Your methods were indeed more fucused on scanning the badlands, which is great for having images of how rare iron really is, but is hardly the same type of work you take to haul back some ores.

I usually get the first 3 or 2 ores really really fast and that already gives my settlements time to breath, gives people work to do, stuff starts working nicer overall. Axe and shovel do give the towns some stability in more water and slow burning fires. But, that being said, 3 iron isn't enough for iron age, nor for making it into sheep. In fact, If you're unlucky you may have run out of tilling power already.

I think the issue of iron is precisely in the transition from ground ores to mines. I can, normally, in less than an hour and with no mods get a village 8 iron. I can't easily do so while still finding a mine nor while taking care of other obligations. But it is definitely doable. In fact, If I only needed to get the first 3 irons and was sure someone would get the other 5 i'm sure i wouldn't be too much work for anyone, but who goes finding iron?

If we want iron reworked we absolutely need to organize this data and point exactly why the lack of iron is too much of a problem. Currently its because getting thee first 8 is pretty hard and no one seems to want to do it.

MultiLife · 2018-11-18 09:52:59

Booklat1 wrote:

Ive talked to you about this before multi, I think you know I agree with you on the bigger picture (ground ores take a lot of work to gather, mines could use some reword, lie having a middle tier), but I dont think your tests prove your point at all and for reasons you've said yourself. What you did wasnt a "how much iron can I haul back?" test or "can i get at least 8 iron?". Your methods were indeed more fucused on scanning the badlands, which is great for having images of how rare iron really is, but is hardly the same type of work you take to haul back some ores.

I usually get the first 3 or 2 ores really really fast and that already gives my settlements time to breath, gives people work to do, stuff starts working nicer overall. Axe and shovel do give the towns some stability in more water and slow burning fires. But, that being said, 3 iron isn't enough for iron age, nor for making it into sheep. In fact, If you're unlucky you may have run out of tilling power already.

I think the issue of iron is precisely in the transition from ground ores to mines. I can, normally, in less than an hour and with no mods get a village 8 iron. I can't easily do so while still finding a mine nor while taking care of other obligations. But it is definitely doable. In fact, If I only needed to get the first 3 irons and was sure someone would get the other 5 i'm sure i wouldn't be too much work for anyone, but who goes finding iron?

If we want iron reworked we absolutely need to organize this data and point exactly why the lack of iron is too much of a problem. Currently its because getting thee first 8 is pretty hard and no one seems to want to do it.

This test was to show how a badland commonly looks like and how long I truly have to run to keep encountering veins. The barren, large badlands are very common, as if someone had already gathered the iron there. I think that's not how it should look like most of the time.

My family had died in both cases so I didn't go to haul iron as there was no family or camp to haul it for. I can do an iron running life once more if I am born to a surviving family who hasn't gotten iron yet and then calculate how much I hauled and in what time. I think arkajalka found two ores in their life, so keeping in mind the possibility of being lucky or not, we'd need many lives like this.

And yes, is this really the challenge we want? Run more, run further? I don't want that, which is why I am noisy about this.
And yeah, running two-ways to get iron is a very different scenario than me running one way, thus I mentioned everything so people know I am aware how different it is. I'd surely starve much more or bump into boars and wolves on the way, trying to be fast and not starve, but at least the mod helps. Which I don't like as it shouldn't be such a big help as it is, I feel.

arkajalka · 2018-11-18 10:01:00

Main problem is that ground ore is so scarse that you almost never hit the phase where you could actually do the mining kit to get acces to veins. And when you have to rush to the mining kit everything else seriously suffers. Theres no room to make hoes or even shovels if you want to acces that iron pit.

To be honest the magical number 8 is never going to happen. While you are searching for the 8 ores someone for sure will forge few hoes axes and other "useless" tools. So the number is in reality almost doubled as you are either forced to scout your entire life for 8 ores or settle for the middle way and forge as soon as you haul em back, in which point you for sure aint reaching the 8. Sure its easy if theres capable people actually searching for iron, but so far it seems like noone wanders out of the town safety. Or they have all their hands on getting the compost cycle running.

Last edited by arkajalka (2018-11-18 10:04:45)

Psykout · 2018-11-18 10:23:51

Starknight_One wrote:

MultiLife wrote:
Lily wrote:
You know what we need? Flags or markers you can plant to designate areas, kind of like the home marker but only shows people within 5-10 screens or something of the target when they walk by. That way someone could run around exploring the area around a town and mark all the potential future mines, ponds, or whatever. It would still take your entire life exploring to find stuff, but at least you know the next generation will have a lot easier of a time finding what you marked.
I've always liked the idea of trails. But I don't know how to implement those. Hunting trails and such, those are very real things. I'd like landmarks or flags or some easier to make arrow shaped signs. You could rotate the arrow in directions like NW, N, NE, E etc. Then a life of a mapper/explorer/pathfinder/trailmaker would be a nice task, a special profession.
I tend to lay out branches and seeds as arrows pointing to my camp. I don't need them with a home marker, but anyone else who stumbles into the area would be directed to a place that should have food. I guess I could do the same to point to things... or I can just backtrack the arrows.
..... Like this.
.

Give us the ability the make the stones that are in the tutorial so we can attach messages such as, This way to iron vein. Don't catch the rabbit unless it has a baby with it and done deal. Want to balance it - put it somewhere in a tech tree that you need to be this advanced to make them. Heck even make it so by putting it down I give my life up to leave this message for ages and I would still do it. In the grand scheme of things my life isn't as valuable as the life of the civ anyways.

gabal · 2018-11-18 13:22:12

I have seen notes by the forge saying "two iron veins to the north".

MultiLife · 2018-11-18 16:23:19

gabal wrote:

I have seen notes by the forge saying "two iron veins to the north".

I used to see those, but now as it's such a struggle to get to a knife, notes happen way less. Rarely the vein is in one direction too.

Christoffer · 2018-11-19 15:09:14

Lily wrote:

I say this in pretty much all these iron threads, hoping Jason will say it. The formula for determining an area of a circle is pi times R squared. He figured there was 3000 iron within a 5 minute walk, and thought that it sounded like too much. However, a 5 minute walk is a massive area. Even covering the radius of a 1 minute walk in every direction, would take longer than an entire person's life span.

Yes, as the move speed is three tiles per second, one minute's radius equals 180 tiles radius, which means a surface area of 100,000 tiles. Running through all of them would take about 10 hours. Let's say you actually only need to run through 1/10 to get a look at all tiles (probably too optimistic), then it's a 60 minutes non-stop, no-eating run to cover a circle with 1-minute radius. A 5-minute radius circle would take 25 hours.

There are no absolutes here, maybe this is "the correct" difficulty. My personal hunch is that surface iron was reasonably sparse before (and is too sparse now), whereas the vein iron needed a nerf of some sort.

I like the ideas of making it cost more work to get each piece of iron out, essentially creating a "miner job" for some players. Surface iron was often much richer in iron than mined ore is, so adding some more steps for making iron ore into iron makes sense to me.

tana · 2018-11-19 15:34:20

to be fair, even if I had to run a bit more and a bit further, I've always found the iron I needed.
The thing is now iron run is reserved for veteran players and having the zoom mod is almost a must have.
Newer players will have a harder time finding it.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-11-17 19:44:28

Pain of the Iron Run

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Re: Pain of the Iron Run

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#10 2018-11-18 09:38:37

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