Griever killing everyone with knive

xFaTE · 2018-03-17 01:06:15

Currently this is happening more often.
Random person grabs a knive and is going on a killing spree.
Usually someone who didn't contribute at all except eating carrots.
This ruins an entire civilization. It kind of destroys the fun in a good run.
Is there any plans on how to handle it or do we have to expect
that immature children will always be able to go on a killing spree.

Casdir · 2018-03-17 01:52:46

Don't let knives laying around in the open. Or better yet, don't craft any to begin with. If you see one, get rid of it and hide it somewhere good.
Or arm yourself with it and be the white knight of your camp.

I mean, I don't even know what the knife is really used for. Is it really that important to craft one right now?
Like, is it really worth crafting one for the risk of having someone kill an entire civilization?

I doubt it's worth it.

Last edited by Casdir (2018-03-18 18:04:35)

Gate Valley · 2018-03-17 02:54:20

Casdir wrote:

Don't let knives laying around in the open. Or better yet, don't craft any to begin with. If you see one, get rid of it and hide it somewhere good.
I mean, I don't even know what the knife is really used for. Is it really that important to craft one right now?
Like, is it really worth crafting one for the risk of having someone kill an entire civilization?
I doubt it's worth it.

But can't you also kill players with a bow & arrow? Those are at least moderately useful in a society so you can't really just avoid ever making one of those. You definitely could go without and it wouldn't impact your civilization much but it's still kind of shitty that it comes to that. Also if all societies took that same stance you'd run into at least two problems. First the griefers manage to negatively impact every single players experience without even having to interact with them by virtue of the fact that now no civilization can use knives or bows. Second is if a group of griefers start their own small civilization they'd likely be able to make some weapons in their lifetime and use them to kill entire civilizations that now have no weapons to defend themselves. Or even just a single griefer who spawns into the village, acts like a normal villager, then uses the villages own resources to craft a weapon and use it to kill everyone else. There's not even a way to prevent that scenario from happening.

Uncle Gus · 2018-03-17 04:24:37

^

Last edited by Uncle Gus (2018-03-17 04:24:50)

powa · 2018-03-17 06:32:21

Currently, I think every member of society needs to constantly be aware of the possibility of rampage. If there isn't a knife or bow and arrow within quick reach (or two weapons, in case the murderer uses the first), the murderer can simply destroy the settlement, killing everyone who doesn't flee. People need to be actively on guard for the quick draw and retaliating blow. Hopefully then only a few villagers die.

Maybe an alternative is that everyone flees in different directions. But then the antagonist can do whatever they want to blend up the settlement and take/use whatever they want. Doesn't seem like an attractive option.

A guilty fantasy of mine is that groups of murderers start to form in the meta. I really want to see how large scale conflict can break out -- could a strong enough village form a militia fast enough to survive a multi-person murder squad?

But all of these things seem absolutely terrible for the rest of the game. Even with optimal response, many people would be killed and much time and attention used dealing with training and preparedness. I'm with the camp that says that nerfing murdering would improve the realism, enjoyment, and progression of the game.

Is there any plans on how to handle it or do we have to expect
that immature children will always be able to go on a killing spree.

There are several solutions floating around the forums and the suggestions subreddit. I might make a post reviewing them tomorrow after some sleep. I don't know if the developer has any significant plans for tackling the problem beyond the recent update (adding a murder sound effect). I think this is an interesting and maybe important long-term problem so I'm glad people are still talking about it.

Portager · 2018-03-17 20:53:24

Just got griefed on my first game of the day, no audible murder sound whilst getting shot with a bow and arrow.

This is getting very old.

Last edited by Portager (2018-03-17 21:00:07)

aFilthyPeasant · 2018-03-18 00:56:57

powa wrote:

People need to be actively on guard for the quick draw and retaliating blow.

I like the idea that everyone is able to fight back, but the issue that stands is that the murderer has a weapon. This makes it difficult to fight in and of itself because if no one in the village has a weapon, or say that the murderer got ahold of the only bow and arrow they have, then there is no way to fight back.

In the latest build we have the bloodied knife and the slower walk. I think a good solution for retaliation, as you put it, would be for everyone to be able to beat the living **** out of the guy. Say someone with a bow or knife walks into a village who has zero weapons and kills someone in the middle of camp. If all of the villagers were to right click him during the kill cooldown (the slow walk) then that would be able to kill the guy. You wouldn't be able to walk up to someone with empty hands and right click them to start a fist fight (aka kill them), you would only be able to initialize that sort of "retaliatory damage" after they started it and were in that state of having just killed.

Perhaps you'd need 3 people to fend off a single attacker, like a bear needing 3 arrows. This could either create a closer call if it is just 2 people, 1 of them having to hit the attacker twice. This would also make larger groups of unarmed people potentially more dangerous, which would make these griefers think twice before going in and trying to ruin someones day (or civ).

Irathe · 2018-03-18 01:35:20

I see no reason that once a murder has occurred that everyone couldn't grab the nearest shovel/axe/ect and proceed to beat the crap out of them. Make it so certain items can damage someone but only while they have murderer status on them.

PooManCHU · 2018-03-18 02:04:25

As far as the bow and arrow is concerned, the elders could just hang onto all the arrows in there backpacks rendering the bow useless unless the griefer makes his own, that way if someone wanted to use the bow they would just ask the elders, and if deemed trustworthy by them it would be given and then returned, i think a big problem is when you are being griefed you cant communicate with your people very well at all, the game is so zoomed in it makes it so that unless you are standing very close to one another you cant talk, and for people that are slow at typing they will already be dead before coordinate a counter attack, i think some kind of voice chat would really help not only with griefing but just village coordination in general

Portager · 2018-03-18 02:36:33

PooManCHU wrote:

As far as the bow and arrow is concerned, the elders could just hang onto all the arrows in there backpacks rendering the bow useless unless the griefer makes his own, that way if someone wanted to use the bow they would just ask the elders, and if deemed trustworthy by them it would be given and then returned, i think a big problem is when you are being griefed you cant communicate with your people very well at all, the game is so zoomed in it makes it so that unless you are standing very close to one another you cant talk, and for people that are slow at typing they will already be dead before coordinate a counter attack, i think some kind of voice chat would really help not only with griefing but just village coordination in general

I was contemplating a similar idea earlier, but it will only become a matter of time until griefers purposely wait to age to elderdom and then begin their murderous rampage. Honestly, most of the mass murderer griefers I have seen are middle age. Only one step from being elders.

PooManCHU · 2018-03-18 05:00:10

Are you saying that most murderers actually contribute to the village for a good15-25 minutes but then just as there getting older they get bored and kill people? i think the only way for advance villages to stop griefing from there own population is to have strict rules, so when a new baby come along, you ask it it has read the guide on the wiki and wants to join and participate to the village, and that it is not about what they want to do all the time, you may be given a job to job and it must be done after the old people die for the betterment of the village. imo i think most griefers and new players that don't know how to play they cant do anything so they get bored than start killing. only problem is it is hard to communicate a message like this in game becasue the text system, that's why i think we need voice shat in this game for big villages to work.

the game also needs some kind of lockable container that isnt that hard to craft that way you could put all weapons and valuables inside, big villages will need guards but currently they don't work well we need a better combat system, there needs to be armor both fabric and metal in the game so guards don't die in one hit and shields to block attacks too. talking about fabric armor reminds my of something else, why is there only milkweed for thread in the game, why not flax, hemp, cotton, mulberry trees for silk farming, yucca and agave for a new desert biome, fabric takes alot of fibers we need more than just milkweed. also proper walls like earthworks and palisade with adobe lining and watch towers for your archers to sit in and snipe off any intruders.

you see im not for taking away pvp actually I'm all for it, it's just currently the combat system is nether balanced or rewarding we need deeper combat thats fun, the game having simple controls doesn't means the combat cant be fun, here's my idea i will talk about armor later for now melee weapons, if holding a melee weapon right click no longer insta kills instead it initiates combat, once in combat your cursor gets bigger and changes to a sword and arrow controls change too right click no longer puts down what your holding and left click doesn't pick things up, instead left click attacks simply clicking the left click would perform a quick jab while holding it down until a sound effect or visual queue played would perform a slash, right click would be to hold up your shield, timed blocks could be performed becasue jab and slash would have tel tail animations letting you know when the opponent was about to strike, holding down a slash past the sound effect or visual queue would make you fumble giving your opponent the chance to riposte, that way players cant just hold back a slash and wait for there player to put there shield down. in the same vain jabbing someone who has there shield up at the time would cause you to stun yourself for a second. up it's fun becasue you cant hold back a slash while holding your shield up at the same time, you have to wait until the right time to strike then drop your guard to jab or slash all about timing, i know it's alot but imo would make the gamer alot more fun i dint talk about armor becasue i have done enough typing for now.

Last edited by PooManCHU (2018-03-18 05:03:18)

PooManCHU · 2018-03-18 06:01:37

Just got off OHOL, was in a village were i was making compost and planting milkweed, was teaching someone to make compost and while i was typeing an infant who had just learned to grab items killed me in one hit, probs went on to kill a another 4 or 5 people after me, an infant comeon people that just stupid and impossible irl

Joriom · 2018-03-18 08:40:38

PooManCHU wrote:

Just got off OHOL, was in a village were i was making compost and planting milkweed, was teaching someone to make compost and while i was typeing an infant who had just learned to grab items killed me in one hit, probs went on to kill a another 4 or 5 people after me, an infant comeon people that just stupid and impossible irl

Actually - you're lying. Teenagers (just after being able to grab items) are unable to pick up weapons and hand carts. He must have been older or you're lying about everything.

Baron X · 2018-03-18 11:22:44

Just as in the real-life weapons control debate, it's not the weapons or mechanisms by which the mechanisms that function that are the problem. It's the people.

Yesterday, I spawned into a nice little farming village, decent advancement and nice people, everyone clothed and we were really gearing up to improving the camp further. This guy comes strolling in, I'm tending to the carrots, I watch him start picking the ones I explicitly said were for seeds, he grabs a knife and kills someone, comes back eating carrots everytime he has a health bar missing and picks literally every carrot there, eats all our pies, eats literally everything and as I'm trying to ask him wtf he's doing he responds "Shut the f*** up f**" and "You're all going to die" - 100% intentional griefing, I got a short clip of the latter stages of his nonsense, I can't understand what kind of person would get his rocks off being an idiot like that but I guess when you have no friends and your family hates you you've got to get creative in your fun to stop the existential dread from setting in.

We need community controls, the ability to ban people / remove them from servers, maybe even allow volunteer mods elected by the community via forum etc who can swap servers, teleport to the player and observe and make an action, all actions must include a clip (maybe integrate something in the client to record medium res 15 second clips or something when creating a moderation action, the moderation actions for each mod are later reviewed and if abuse of power is evident they are permanently removed and perhaps if the action is severe are actioned themselves.

As it stands, there is no consequence for griefing. We NEED consequence, or this will not stop, and may only get worse.

Dawn · 2018-03-18 12:44:56

I have seen this happen too many times.
A moment ago I was contributing to a thriving civilisation and it was going well. The game was rolling and I was loving it.
A guy came, wiped it all away with a knife.
I'm so frustrated- it really ruined my fun. Surviving right now is hard enough on its own and that's enough of a challenge. I really see this as a PvE game, not PvP.

I would like to point out that this murdering really does need to be nerfed because it ruins the experience and the hard-earned progress that has been made (the stuff I play to see.)

Perhaps even slower movement for murderers.
Blood all over them so they can be identified more easily.
A cooldown on murders.
Or multiple hits to murder.
Or, as Baron X said, consequences. Temporary bans perhaps.

No murder at all seems a little unrealistic. But one selfish guy wiping an entire civilisation is equally as unrealistic.
My solution would be to implement all of the above. I really do think mass murder ruins the game for a whole civilisation of people.

I really don't want to have making weapons for defense as a bigger focus, survival is, as I mentioned, hard enough already in my opinion.

PooManCHU · 2018-03-18 12:49:51

Mate griefing with no consequence is what the dev wanted it's his vision, otherwise he would have had pvp disabled on the official server by default, pvp is part of the game it's just atm the combat system is really bad and need to change, it currently gives you no way to counter or block it's just who ever gets in first insta kills, which is so annoying and not fun in the slightest. it's a problem with human nature it will not stop, the games needs to changes it systems, but not by banning just by getting better combat and defensive buildings.

just minutes before i was in game i was an elder male in the village trying my hardest to keep things together i was saying to the mums :you have to have kids we have no baby's we need a permanent mother to rise new young no kids no chance, then a player who over the last ten minutes i had seen stealing our milkweed to make arrows i had been takeing said arrows and hiding them, came up to me and said this guy wants to enforce gender roles and chased me down with a knife, i had a knife also as my uncle had given it too me but i wasn't quick enough he insta killed me, man the combat is so bad. sad thing is he probs took the arrows my my pack too and used them with the bow he had made to kill the entire village

PooManCHU · 2018-03-18 12:53:15

Joriom wrote:

PooManCHU wrote:
Just got off OHOL, was in a village were i was making compost and planting milkweed, was teaching someone to make compost and while i was typeing an infant who had just learned to grab items killed me in one hit, probs went on to kill a another 4 or 5 people after me, an infant comeon people that just stupid and impossible irl
Actually - you're lying. Teenagers (just after being able to grab items) are unable to pick up weapons and hand carts. He must have been older or you're lying about everything.

sorry was busy typing at the time when i was killed i cant type and look at my screen at the same time so i only so him for a split second, he was naked so i just assumed a baby my bad, but since when am i lying about everything a made a mistake, it's called human error mang clam down

masamune0 · 2018-03-18 15:08:49

The issue is that in this game, you are unknown (no nick or no name or nothing that can identify you), which means griefing is not punished at all. Which is really bad because people are more likely to grief since there is no consequence at all. There are also a lot of invisible ways to grief (even if you don't murder people), which is deadly to village. I guess a karma system would be required, if you kill a lot in previous lives, you have a sinister aura or something. Or instead of an aura, maybe be able to inspect people (oh this one is dangerous...and so on)

The second thing is that you have a very small view (too zoomed in) so even if there is murder nearby, you may not even know it. The bloody grave is showing for a short time too (not long enough).

If the murder was ever kinda solved (like harder to do, or easier to detect), griefers will just switch to another method, but I guess this is the funniest way of griefing to murder people.

Solutions to this murder thing would be able to craft a armor (which resists one knife stab, or one arrow for example, even if it is not easy to craft, that's not an issue, that would be even funnier if it is not easy to craft), so you are less likely to die too easily. And then be able to detect murder from a longer distance and make the bloody grave lasts a lot longer.

I don't mind having murders in village, but make it harder.

And crafting a knife is easy if you have already have the steel file. Bow and arrow is easy too. So hiding these weapons... not convinced it will help a lot, it will help a bit sure, but not that much.

Last edited by masamune0 (2018-03-18 15:13:01)

kerfuffle · 2018-03-18 16:10:19

Yeah 3 times today over 16 in a village and 3 times knife in back. Two times I didn't even see anyone. Last time I was the communal milk machine by the fire and poof black screen. Guess those kids are dead. Have to say it's starting to take away from the game for me. Rather see no pvp at all till a better system is in place then reactivate it. Then of course the dumb dumbs will just do something else to ruin villages and peoples work. Meh fudged either way I guess

Casdir · 2018-03-18 16:56:05

Starting to get sick of it as well. Jason Rohrer has to do something about this, as soon as he comes back from the GDC convention. It's really killing the game, as in slowing down the process of getting a huge camp with a lot of people going. That's the biggest goal for this game, to have a big civilization up and running. It's already hard as it is right now due to inexperienced people dying soon after you raised them. Especially when it's girls. Or people messing up with the carrot farms. And sooo many other things.

I would say to turn off pvp for the time being and tweak it in the background. Reimplement it later down the line, when it has gotten more omptimized with the rest of the game.

It sucks when you die to stupid things like this. You can't defend yourself at all, unless you're making a knife/bow and arrow yourself. But this is not Rust or whatever. You don't have an infintie amount of time to prepare yourself for everything there is considering how complicated and time consuming it is to craft items in this game.

Last edited by Casdir (2018-03-18 17:58:18)

Guluere · 2018-03-18 17:45:15

I've had the same problem, someone, grew up, craft a knife and killed everyone, the places are usually almost city like or are a city, just think how generation and generation of work built up to having someone knifing everyone.

There is plenty of times where when you play the game, and explore, you will find lots of buildings that are breaking and lots of player made stuff all over the place, but...but...there is no one living here, where did everyone go? They died, knifed or shot by someone. Also followed by finding an area of mess graves.

Last edited by Guluere (2018-03-18 17:46:11)

Matok · 2018-03-18 17:56:58

I don't think pvp should be turned off because it's the only solution to extremely problematic individuals currently. If you turn it off, people are then free to clean out your storehouses and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

But it currently isn't implemented realistically. How often do you hear about a 5 year old murdering an entire neighboorhood of adults with a kitchen knife in a few minutes on the nightly news? Never, because it isn't possible.

A child shouldn't have the physical strength to overpower and kill an adult, let alone a dozen of them. Even if prehistoric history was more violent than today, I'm fairly certain that if a kid tried to stab an adult, they'd get a backhand across the face for their trouble and get their knife taken away.

Killing someone should be possible, but not easy, and honestly shouldn't be possible at all for kids to do. They shouldn't be that strong yet.

Portager · 2018-03-18 18:07:30

To all the people saying that the mass murder griefing problem is starting to kill the game, or ruin the enjoyment of the game, I couldn't agree with you more.

It has been ruining my enjoyment as well, and honestly, my playing time has decreased drastically this week as this problem has increased. I am not sure that Jason realizes how big of an issue this is becoming, honestly, I can't blame him if he doesn't know. In a relatively short period of time, this problem has increased in scale from a small annoyance to a game crippling phenomena. Something has to be done to make murder more difficult, it shouldn't be eliminated, but it needs a layer of complexity. The murder noise and murder grave features added in the last update, are not enough, if anything these chagnes have emboldened griefers.

PooManCHU · 2018-03-19 01:41:16

yeah totally agree with you guys, it cant be turned off atm becasue you have to kill poo brain villagers sometimes, shouldn't be eliminated it needs a layer or layers of complexity, making the mechanics better will improve the game so much, like adding voice chat, wasd controls, armor, proper walls with watchtowers and gatehouses for bowmen, locks and keys, some kind of identity like being mothers being able to name kids in-game and clan tags, signs we need signs so bad so we can write down rules and faq's for new kids to read, this game is fun but it came out in a very exploitable state

masamune0 · 2018-03-19 07:54:52

Another thought I just had : It could be nice that when you kill someone, you have blood on you, and you can't remove it until you go clean yourself in a pond or with water.

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Griever killing everyone with knive

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