Having 0 daughters is a major problem

Floofy · 2018-12-06 17:31:07

lionon wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
How many civs are ended like this?
All of them? Well not so drastic like this, but maybe one or two daughters that turn out to be too stupid to put food in their mouth.
Also just was in a town that was brimming with food. Lots of free backpacks (due to playerbase going down I guess)... and all dudes, just 1 girl. They didn't die of yet. But as I died she was nearing 40 and the one girl she had was sudden infant death...

People too stupid to put food in their mouth in towns with food everywhere isn't sarcastic or a joke, it happens all the time, its crazy lol. I think they don't know what can be eaten other than berries.

Floofy · 2018-12-06 17:32:44

Three wrote:

In real life can you controll if you get a girl or a boy? No i thought so.

The objective of this game isn't supposed to be realistic. Heck, you don't even need males to do babies.

Booklat1 · 2018-12-06 22:52:40

lionon wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
I'd love to see where you took this from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%27s_principle

cool, thanks

Tane · 2018-12-08 13:48:40

Fact is, the only way to play this game is with a successive line.
Its THE base mechanic of the game.
When the game itself ends your line, it can make the whole exercise seem completely pointless. I know I've taken a break because of that before. Kobayashi Maru, the unwinnable situation.
For me, I think there should be some sort of stop gap if its the last girl in a long lasting line.
Minimum of 3 girls, or a Fibonacci scale chance in favour of females with age

Floofy · 2018-12-08 18:21:16

Tane wrote:

Fact is, the only way to play this game is with a successive line.
Its THE base mechanic of the game.
When the game itself ends your line, it can make the whole exercise seem completely pointless. I know I've taken a break because of that before. Kobayashi Maru, the unwinnable situation.
For me, I think there should be some sort of stop gap if its the last girl in a long lasting line.
Minimum of 3 girls, or a Fibonacci scale chance in favour of females with age

Fully agree with you man, i feel the same way. I wish we could at least be reborn in our own line when we die of old age.

MultiLife · 2018-12-08 19:02:54

The best way to 'win' in this game is to live to 60 as Eve and keep respawning to your camp to revive it over and over again until it becomes Casino Town.
Anyways I am still fine with number tweak/number logic so child distribution is more fair, just because I think a city with only women should die just like a city with only men; as this game has asexually reproducing females, I'd consider the baby distribution logic.

Last edited by MultiLife (2018-12-08 19:25:18)

Floofy · 2018-12-08 19:14:42

MultiLife wrote:

The best way to 'win' in this game is to live to 60 as Eve and keep respawning to your camp to revive it over and over again until it becomes Casino Town.
Anyways I am still fine with number tweak/number logic so child distribution is more fair, just because I think a city with only women should die just like a city with only men; as this game has asexually producing females, I'd consider the baby distribution logic.

Again, i asked this in another topic, but what am i missing to respawn as Eve in my own lineage? I died as 60 year old Eve a bunch of time and i always get lineage banned for 90 minutes. Only time i managed to be born to my kids is when i had a power outtage and died at 36 year old.

MultiLife · 2018-12-08 19:28:00

Floofy wrote:

MultiLife wrote:
The best way to 'win' in this game is to live to 60 as Eve and keep respawning to your camp to revive it over and over again until it becomes Casino Town.
Anyways I am still fine with number tweak/number logic so child distribution is more fair, just because I think a city with only women should die just like a city with only men; as this game has asexually producing females, I'd consider the baby distribution logic.
Again, i asked this in another topic, but what am i missing to respawn as Eve in my own lineage? I died as 60 year old Eve a bunch of time and i always get lineage banned for 90 minutes. Only time i managed to be born to my kids is when i had a power outtage and died at 36 year old.

You can't respawn as an Eve in your old lineage, that's a contradicting sentence. If you live to 60 years as Eve, your home marker location is added as one valid spawning point when you spawn as an Eve next time. Sometimes you get to come back to your own old camp, deteriorating but still there. If I have understood correctly, the game saves that small piece of civilization and "gives it back" with small percentage of succession. It's RNG if you get it, it took me a week to be born to my old camp as a new Eve; started it up again and watched it go for another round of new lineage.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3298

Last edited by MultiLife (2018-12-08 19:30:28)

Booklat1 · 2018-12-08 19:28:44

you don't spawn in your lineage, you spawn as an eve near a previous eve spawn, sometimes your ow previous spawn. This way people revive towns and add more lines to already existing cities. This and bells are the best ways to keep cities going.

BladeWoods · 2018-12-11 20:34:22

Happened again, I was in very successful town. I was last woman left. I have four sons.... ZERO DAUGHTERS.

Please Jason, do something about this.

Floofy · 2018-12-11 21:18:22

In my opinion, the solution could be a mix of this:

1) Fewer Eve spawn when there is already a few towns on a server
2) More fair distribution of birth rates across the towns on the same server
3) Slighty modified RNG of gender birth, as i suggested before, to greatly reduce chance of having all boys

thundersen · 2018-12-11 21:37:24

Hm, I'm not sure, if I got the birth/spawn mechanics 100% right, but I think the problem can't easily be fixed with boosting the likelihood of getting girls.

1. Updates. Servers must be restarted and all players need to update and respawn. => All lineages are wiped out at least once per week. I doubt that Jason will have the time to come up with a fix for that. I'm no game dev, but have made other distributed software (incl. servers, clients, databases, ...) which must be updated without interrupting user experience. It's hard and probably impossible for a solo dev with a system that wasn't designed for this from the start.

2. Number of players going down. Whenever that happens higher numbered servers will get no new spawns and lineages die. Now this could be tweaked by increasing the likelihood of getting girls when server pop is low. But eventually there will be no player left to spawn and tweaking the odds does nothing. I suspect that the player number goes up and down a few times every day, not only once when people in the US go to sleep. At least one server will suffer from this each time it happens. As far as I know you are assigned to a server when you first spawn and then stay there for subsequent spawns. So if you've spawned on the highest numbered active server and the number of players goes down, you're screwed.

I wonder if these two things are the reason why so many people feel that a 50/50 chance is unfair.

Apart from these two scenarios, I personally think that it's fine to sometimes just be screwed by RNG, if you're the last girl.
The chance for getting four boys in a row is 50%*50%*50%*50%=6.25%. It's bad luck, but it's not a freak event. It can happen. (But if you ONLY get these four kids, I think it means that there are just no more players available to spawn.)
The challenge is to not be dependent on just one mother. If you are, your family is either in its early stages or something else has gone wrong (girls starved for no good reason, sneaky sneks, griefers, ...). And if you end up in a situation like this, these can be the most rewarding lives. Being the last girl that saves the lineage, celebrating the birth of HOPE IV, raising her and hoping that she will make it... Any tweaks of the 50/50 chance would endanger these experiences.

What do you folks think? Especially about point #2, the player number going down. Is that plausible? Bonus question: Do we have data on the number of players over time by server?

Floofy · 2018-12-11 21:40:50

thundersen wrote:

Hm, I'm not sure, if I got the birth/spawn mechanics 100% right, but I think the problem can't easily be fixed with boosting the likelihood of getting girls.
1. Updates. Servers must be restarted and all players need to update and respawn. => All lineages are wiped out at least once per week. I doubt that Jason will have the time to come up with a fix for that. I'm no game dev, but have made other distributed software (incl. servers, clients, databases, ...) which must be updated without interrupting user experience. It's hard and probably impossible for a solo dev with a system that wasn't designed for this from the start.
2. Number of players going down. Whenever that happens higher numbered servers will get no new spawns and lineages die. Now this could be tweaked by increasing the likelihood of getting girls when server pop is low. But eventually there will be no player left to spawn and tweaking the odds does nothing. I suspect that the player number goes up and down a few times every day, not only once when people in the US go to sleep. At least one server will suffer from this each time it happens. As far as I know you are assigned to a server when you first spawn and then stay there for subsequent spawns. So if you've spawned on the highest numbered active server and the number of players goes down, you're screwed.
I wonder if these two things are the reason why so many people feel that a 50/50 chance is unfair.
Apart from these two scenarios, I personally think that it's fine to sometimes just be screwed by RNG, if you're the last girl.
The chance for getting four boys in a row is 50%*50%*50%*50%=6.25%. It's bad luck, but it's not a freak event. It can happen. (But if you ONLY get these four kids, I think it means that there are just no more players available to spawn.)
The challenge is to not be dependent on just one mother. If you are, your family is either in its early stages or something else has gone wrong (girls starved for no good reason, sneaky sneks, griefers, ...). And if you end up in a situation like this, these can be the most rewarding lives. Being the last girl that saves the lineage, celebrating the birth of HOPE IV, raising her and hoping that she will make it... Any tweaks of the 50/50 chance would endanger these experiences.
What do you folks think? Especially about point #2, the player number going down. Is that plausible? Bonus question: Do we have data on the number of players over time by server?

1) well that's fine. I think server wipes once a week is ok, this still gives us the chance to do really long lines if we want to.

2) I have noticed players are very wide spread across servers. Maybe people should be forced into server 1 until its full??

betame · 2018-12-11 23:32:46

Looks like a challenging game design problem thats entirely unique to this entirely unique game mechanic. --- therefore worth some dev attention.

I want to reiterate that Nocturnal Infertility only occurs during the change period between high and low player numbers. A low player number that is constant will still have enough players logging on to replace those logging off.

Since it's a meta problem, a meta solution sounds fair to me.

The sense of infertility may partly be a predictable result of the steam influx. I don't have the data, but I'm imagining we're in a gentle "collapse" phase of the overshoot-and-collapse in population modeling as we reach a new playerbase plateau -- which makes the infertile hours even worse. And the change must feel more drastic to new players who joined during steam's high birth rate boom. The rush of steam players who had their exciting first month of play are playing less frequently now, and the yet-to-buy steamers aren't the people who were amped up about to buy this game.

thundersen wrote:

Do we have data on the number of players over time by server?

Current numbers here. http://onehouronelife.com/reflector/ser … ion=report IDK about server data over time.

Last edited by betame (2018-12-11 23:36:46)

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-12 00:54:54

The number of servers in use doesn't matter, what matters is the number of lineages. When population starts falling, the number of lineages that can be supported must likewise fall - it's a mathematical certainty. This means that no matter what, one by one the lineages will have fewer and fewer children and then die out.

Not all lineages will die, depending on how low the total population (across all servers) falls. But most will.

Edit: In other words, exactly what betame said in his post about nocturnal infertility.

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2018-12-12 00:57:28)

Lexyvil · 2018-12-14 23:58:49

I actually love the idea of a civilization failing to due the bad chances of only birthing boys. The more a city is populated, the higher the chances of girls being born, and that I believe should be the best way to lower that kind of extinction~

PsyKick · 2018-12-17 16:07:42

lionon wrote:

PsyKick wrote:
Lack of girls is just one of the many ways this game is made realistic.
Can you be more historically specific?

Has anyone ever chosen to have a girl or a boy in real life? This isn't about civilization dying off, this is about the fact that the sex variable is changed randomly. You can have a girl, but then have a boy next time, vice versa. So if you have like 5 boys and no girls, it's random chance and could happen IRL too.

Booklat1 · 2018-12-17 17:11:09

CrazyEddie wrote:

The number of servers in use doesn't matter, what matters is the number of lineages. When population starts falling, the number of lineages that can be supported must likewise fall - it's a mathematical certainty. This means that no matter what, one by one the lineages will have fewer and fewer children and then die out.
Not all lineages will die, depending on how low the total population (across all servers) falls. But most will.
Edit: In other words, exactly what betame said in his post about nocturnal infertility.

That's not true, the number of servers do matter. When servers are full you are redirected to the next server. You could've otherwise spawned as an eve in the previous server but, if there were girls not on cooldown, you'd spawn as a kid. Less servers might mean more lines per server, but it means more spawns in that server overall. I doubt most of these spawns would be line starting spawns (AKA eves).

Greep · 2018-12-17 19:55:29

Yeah that's true, ultimately population death likelihood is proportional to (birth rate / lineages).

That said, the question isn't what fixes it, that's extremely obvious: you just stop spawning eves at a certain point, runaway girls can cause issues but only so much, and I'm sure there's ways of detecting and dealing with that. The question is why isn't it done?

The answer I think can only be that jason believes city life is boring and "fixing" this issue means people play in a boring setting more often. IMO the answer there is just making city life more interesting by giving murder griefers more leeway to do as they will, so if your city fails it's not due to some unstoppable metagame it's due to your own city's incompetence. Additionally, right now, the game balance "difficulty" is weighted so the more advanced your civ, the easier it is. There's no reason it has to be this way, it can be reversed in a number of ways, although that is a more time consuming issue to solve.

I guess another reason might be the lineage ban: Eve is the only answer to someone that /dies out of everything, so "just stop spawning eves" is tricky for this case. Personally, I think the answer is just allowing people to choose the family they want if they weren't murdered, but most people think that's heresy. The alternative might be just not giving a lineage ban on /die, and only allow Eves if someone died of old age or there is no fertile females. The reason most people chain /die many times is either trying to get to a family, trying to get to a city, or playing Eve. If Eve is no longer a possibility, they will stop doing it.

Right now, this really sucks in a number of ways. Want to know the best way of griefing an entire server right now? Make successful eves and runaway girls exclusively every single life and /die until female. This A) drains females from large towns. B) increases lineages.
You will kill every single lineage at any time of day. By yourself. Want to know the best way to help your family if you're born a male and that family has a well run town with plenty of iron? /die and stop playing for an hour and a half (or I guess just die before 30). Not even kidding. Think about it.

The current system is a real monstrosity that needs to be solved eventually. I think the game would have been a lot easier to manage if it were less ambitious and there was only one city and one family at a time, but it is what it is

Last edited by Greep (2018-12-17 20:34:36)

Three · 2018-12-17 21:11:36

Greep wrote:

Right now, this really sucks in a number of ways. Want to know the best way of griefing an entire server right now? Make successful eves and runaway girls exclusively every single life and /die until female. This A) drains females from large towns. B) increases lineages.
You will kill every single lineage at any time of day. By yourself. Want to know the best way to help your family if you're born a male and that family has a well run town with plenty of iron? /die and stop playing for an hour and a half (or I guess just die before 30). Not even kidding. Think about it.
The current system is a real monstrosity that needs to be solved eventually. I think the game would have been a lot easier to manage if it were less ambitious and there was only one city and one family at a time, but it is what it is

What? No! I don't think you fully understand how the birthing system works since what you just described would in no way destroy any lineage, the current system is okay and that is good considering Jason standards.

Greep · 2018-12-17 21:20:15

Unless there is something you want to explain tell me, yes it would. And since you haven't brought any additional knowledge, while I'm just building off the logic of the rest of the topic which I have read, I think it's your job to explain here not mine xD You might also want to read the rest of it too

Edit: Incidentally, this sounds like players can take matters into their own hands by taking advantage of the reverse. If you want to save a big town at night time, you /die out of it and murder every small town. They'll die out in a few generations anyways since it's dead hours so there's no real moral dilemma there and eventually the murdered people will be born into the big city, so at least you can save one city overnight.

Last edited by Greep (2018-12-17 22:56:47)

Sylverone · 2018-12-18 13:40:34

Or I could try to explain, to see if I understand. Basically, every time you appear as a boy you ban yourself from that lineage, and when you appear as a girl you steal your mothering potential from that village, at least slightly hurting their chances of survival. Basically you can rapidly steal one girl from every other mother who is not on cooldown, then when you get an Eve you actually work to try and start the lineage, thus diluting the number of further births the lineages you have been banned from will receive. then of course you continue the process, even trolling the villages you have just started. So first you manufacture a girl shortage, then you chip away at diluting the overall spawn rate. Sounds like it could hurt. The limiting factor would be that while you are starting your new lineage, other lines get a breather during which to recover somewhat, but you have already done them substantial blows by cutting one girl per available mother (each fertile mother not on cooldown), plus multiple people cooperating on this could cause more damage. I would guess it would only take two-three people, assuming one person isn't enough.

Seems pretty shitty. You haven't tested this have you? I always feel nervous discussing thing like this because I'm afraid someone will take it as a cue to start doing it.

BladeWoods · 2018-12-18 19:44:57

PsyKick wrote:

lionon wrote:
PsyKick wrote:
Lack of girls is just one of the many ways this game is made realistic.
Can you be more historically specific?
Has anyone ever chosen to have a girl or a boy in real life? This isn't about civilization dying off, this is about the fact that the sex variable is changed randomly. You can have a girl, but then have a boy next time, vice versa. So if you have like 5 boys and no girls, it's random chance and could happen IRL too.

Have you ever seen a woman involuntarily, randomly, and asexually pop out a baby in real life? IRL you could keep trying to have babies until you got your desired girl, and IRL towns don't have population drops from lack of players.

The issue with the 0 girl problem is that it happens very often and ends lineages out of rng completely unrelated to the players' actions. All the work you and your predecessors have done destroyed by rng birthing alogrithm. I suspect nocturnal infertility and server splitting are the biggest causes of this. If the population of a town was high enough like someone else said, rng from having all boys would virtually never happen, but keeping the population high is not something you can control either. The population drops low at night, which leads to each town having very limited births, causing mass lineage wipeouts.

Perhaps the spawn algorithm could aniticipate lower player numbers at night and not distribute players into as many towns or as many servers during the day or adjust the gender rng when town population is low.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2018-12-18 20:03:46)

Greep · 2018-12-18 20:45:21

Sylverone wrote:

Or I could try to explain, to see if I understand. Basically, every time you appear as a boy you ban yourself from that lineage, and when you appear as a girl you steal your mothering potential from that village, at least slightly hurting their chances of survival. Basically you can rapidly steal one girl from every other mother who is not on cooldown, then when you get an Eve you actually work to try and start the lineage, thus diluting the number of further births the lineages you have been banned from will receive. then of course you continue the process, even trolling the villages you have just started. So first you manufacture a girl shortage, then you chip away at diluting the overall spawn rate. Sounds like it could hurt. The limiting factor would be that while you are starting your new lineage, other lines get a breather during which to recover somewhat, but you have already done them substantial blows by cutting one girl per available mother (each fertile mother not on cooldown), plus multiple people cooperating on this could cause more damage. I would guess it would only take two-three people, assuming one person isn't enough.
Seems pretty shitty. You haven't tested this have you? I always feel nervous discussing thing like this because I'm afraid someone will take it as a cue to start doing it.

Yeah I haven't tested it, BUT I think I will try the reverse that I discussed: murder/sabotage to save at least one or two large towns during dead hours. It is funny that what is normal gameplay for some (/die to Eve) is basically griefing, and what is griefing (sabotage wholescale during the night) is actually saving an entire family.

Last edited by Greep (2018-12-18 20:48:03)

GreatShawn · 2018-12-19 00:08:55

I mean, jason haven't look into the forums for a long time, might take a while for the words to reach him.

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#26 2018-12-06 17:31:07

Re: Having 0 daughters is a major problem

#27 2018-12-06 17:32:44

Re: Having 0 daughters is a major problem

#28 2018-12-06 22:52:40

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#29 2018-12-08 13:48:40

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#30 2018-12-08 18:21:16

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#31 2018-12-08 19:02:54

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#32 2018-12-08 19:14:42

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#33 2018-12-08 19:28:00

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#34 2018-12-08 19:28:44

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#35 2018-12-11 20:34:22

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#36 2018-12-11 21:18:22

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#37 2018-12-11 21:37:24

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#38 2018-12-11 21:40:50

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#39 2018-12-11 23:32:46

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#40 2018-12-12 00:54:54

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#41 2018-12-14 23:58:49

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#42 2018-12-17 16:07:42

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#43 2018-12-17 17:11:09

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#44 2018-12-17 19:55:29

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#45 2018-12-17 21:11:36

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#46 2018-12-17 21:20:15

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#47 2018-12-18 13:40:34

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#48 2018-12-18 19:44:57

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#49 2018-12-18 20:45:21

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#50 2018-12-19 00:08:55

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