Question about Eve spawn location "exploit"

jasonrohrer · 2018-12-23 00:58:58

It has been brought to my attention that the old-age Eve spawning thing is being used by people to keep villages on the main servers alive forever.

I don't know why I wasn't aware of this until just now.... I think its a stacking effect of multiple mechanical systems that were added at different times for different reasons.

1. If you are Eve, and you live until old age, you will respawn near your death spot the next time you are Eve. This was added a few years ago to make the game 100% playable if only one player is online. You can continue your village as a hermit forever, and progress up the tech tree. (And people who wanted to play this way were successfully doing so on the empty high-number servers.)

2. The new /DIE baby suicide system allows you to cycle through all family lines on a server until you are Eve again. Thus, you can play as Eve whenever you want.

(1) was intended as a crutch to support solo play. (2) was intended to shorten up the baby-respawn loop for expert players who were inevitably going to try to influence their birth location in some way, while also providing a consequence for such looping (you eventually ban yourself from all family lines).

HOWEVER, these two combined mean that after founding a village as Eve, and dying of old age, you can guarantee that you can always play in that same village, forever, by executing /DIE until you are Eve again, which will cause you to respawn in you last Eve death location. And making sure you always die of old age each time.

This was NOT the intention of either of these mechanics.

On the other hand, it only affects a very small handful of players (the Eve founders of villages).

But the net result affects everyone, because the same villages are kept alive even after they die, removing the challenge of reaching higher tech or longer-term projects (like the bell tower).

I'm pretty sure that I will change the Eve spawning rule in (1) to only apply if you are the only player on the server, or maybe if the server is below some population cap.

Maybe the rule is this: if there are any mothers on the server of fertile age (whether or not you qualify to be the baby of one), then if you are Eve, you are placed in the wilds instead of your saved Eve spawn location.

But I wanted to hear some thoughts about it.

GreatShawn · 2018-12-23 00:59:46

wow jason you are online

MultiLife · 2018-12-23 01:20:09

My thoughts:
- I've been reborn to my own Eve camp just ONCE as an Eve without using /die or suiciding
- I've spawned to some triplet Eves' town ONCE as an Eve without using /die or suiciding (was actually murdered by my son at 57 so couldn't be reborn with the 60 year old Eve thing)
- before /die, people ran as babies until they rolled Eve - it's an old trick
- cities and towns die anyways, and people run away from them all the time, is it that bad to revive them? Usually people use /die to get out of huge towns, which eventually kills the town
- griefers actively destroy big towns already
- other Eves keep popping near big towns even when another line is still going
- many Eves can pop in the same big town and live to 60 and pop in again, so the potential of revival is huge, sometimes with three or more lineages rolling in and out

I think the most important thing in this game is the Eve revival. All lineages are doomed, but Eves that live to 60 are the phoenix that can bring the town back from the ashes. How I'd fix this issue: when you spawn as Eve, your old death spot is not a viable spawn point until x amount of in game hours and lives.
Example:
Eve dies at her camp at 60 years - in 5h of in-game lives,
her death spot of 60 becomes a viable Eve spawn spot for her. So she can't go straight back - if she rolls Eve in under 5h she is not getting the old spawn.
Can be more hours.

Crumpaloo · 2018-12-23 01:47:44

Honestly i feel like its great for players that worked so hard on their village to see how it grows. Really i dont even think it needs to be a direct interaction, maybe like a top down "holy from above" spectator cam to see how well your village did while you were gone, maybe even have a system that rewards players with a super small increase chance to spawn in that exact same village. But if you think the community wants this unintentional mechanic then maybe we all can find a compromise to something that works in the middle.

Greep · 2018-12-23 03:26:28

Well, most of the time when when a baby loads in after the minute and baby speaks that he wants to die, and I ask him why, they basically say something amounting to "town sucks, bugger town". And I see a lot of people on steam complain of spawning in small towns at night hours. So honestly, anything that makes for more big towns the better. Making super advanced towns by guaranteeing the town lasts forever is probably bad, but I mean, do Eves actually do this? How many times have people chained Eve? I've done it once and got tired of it pretty quick.

betame · 2018-12-23 03:43:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm pretty sure that I will change the Eve spawning rule in (1) to only apply if you are the only player on the server, or maybe if the server is below some population cap.
Maybe the rule is this: if there are any mothers on the server of fertile age (whether or not you qualify to be the baby of one), then if you are Eve, you are placed in the wilds instead of your saved Eve spawn location.

Those would both weaken the playability of the game when player count is low (i.e. high# servers, and the distant future).
Reason being that, since active player count fluctuates, the last player on the server will keep being pushed out of their village whenever enough people rejoin.

I think you made all the mechanics already, they just got connected unintentionally through /die-ing to become an eve.

Eves should spawn only when there are no fertile mothers (controlled as intended by your birth cooldown mechanic).
Eves should revive the last town only if they are the first eve on the server.
Whenever a player denies all current lineages, they become a male in the *wild.

*So if they want to be reborn to an old line (to grief or oppose the one-life vision), they still have to serve their time in some other life. Lineage ban doesn't affect small pop servers already, so those will still be prone to grief, but won't be ruined by this mechanic.

The only functionalities this takes away is an artificial bonus from old eve death, and choosing into a fertile eve life. Shouldn't those be rare and special, anyway?

Last edited by betame (2018-12-23 06:45:46)

BladeWoods · 2018-12-23 05:55:35

If the goal is to still allow solo play, that proposed rule might make it impossible to solo play unless you have a private server. Your solo eve run on a high public server would be ruined if anyone else happens to join the same server and then that proposed rule makes you lose your saved eve.

The rule could instead be: if your lineage reaches gen 3, then you lose your save. If your lineage doesn't, then you get a save as eve if you live to 60. Old dead towns couldn't be magically revived, and your solo run wouldn't be ruined by someone else joining the same server.

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-23 09:13:17

jasonrohrer wrote:

1. If you are Eve, and you live until old age, you will respawn near your death spot the next time you are Eve. This was added a few years ago to make the game 100% playable if only one player is online. You can continue your village as a hermit forever, and progress up the tech tree. (And people who wanted to play this way were successfully doing so on the empty high-number servers.)

I have heard this 'rule' in a mangled form: that your 'saved camp' location becomes a potential spawn point for any later Eve, not necessarily for your next Eve.

Anyway... if this was done just to support the case where there is one player online, then it's moot now. For one thing, there's never only one player online these days, and probably won't be until at least your final update. For another, if someone wants to play single-player mode they can run their own server; it's trivial to do now that Awbz has a Windows build, to say nothing of linon's public practice server. Both of those provide ways for people to continually respawn as Eve in the same place.

So if you never intended for most people to ever revisit their Eve camps, then you could probably just remove this feature.

That said, I've had this happen to me once, and it was a pleasant surprise when I recognized my earlier Eve camp. It took me a bit to realize where I was, because it had changed somewhat since I had built it and died. It was very nice to revisit it, and to see what had happened to it, and to bring it back to life by giving birth to a new family there. I wouldn't want it to happen often, and I certainly am not interested in constantly chaining back to keep working on the same town the way that you're saying some people are doing. I'd like this "feature" to continue to exist - not to support solo play, which isn't needed any more, and not to stay in the same town for life after life after life... but just as an occasional gift for the sake of nostalgia.

2. The new /DIE baby suicide system allows you to cycle through all family lines on a server until you are Eve again. Thus, you can play as Eve whenever you want.

I certainly hope you'll retain this. I like playing as Eve more than playing in the developed towns, especially at night when the population is falling and it's just you and one or two other people sitting there with nothing to do in a gigantic town that has everything fully built and fully stocked.

But the net result affects everyone, because the same villages are kept alive even after they die, removing the challenge of reaching higher tech or longer-term projects (like the bell tower).

I don't think there's much of a challenge, really. There are a handful of experts that can produce bell towers in their sleep. They're just about able to make cars now, any time, anywhere, as long as an iron mine exists. And whether or not a settlement survives once it reaches maturity (i.e. compost and pies) is basically out of everyone's hands - it's determined almost entirely by whether or not the server population is falling and the lineages on that server thus being starved of children. If children keep coming, even the worst towns will live; when the child pipeline is shut off, even the best towns die.

I think the big towns with the top-tier tech are continuing to exist because they have bells and you tightened the Eve spawn spiral so people are spawning closer to them and are making the journeys to repopulate them from scratch. I think that means it's working as intended.

lionon · 2018-12-23 11:31:32

There is another issue that /die force eve-ing that can be solved in one go. The issue is "nocturnal infertility", that is many players complain their lineages die out too soon out of the wrong issues. The base of this are too many lineages spawned on the peak hours by players that /die too much and thus dilute all exiting lineages by spawning too many, when the slack hours arrive the average lineage size goes to I guess somewhat 4-5 persons per lineage, and thus the likelyhood of only boys is way to much (1 in 16 when 4 players / lineage) deduct from this about at least 50% of playerbase who die due to not being able to put food in their mouth that is all around them.

Solution for this and the eve-spawn exploit issue:

When the player is lineage banned from n (say 5) lineages on the server and thus forces an eve start they are redirected to a lower number server. They still can play as eve, they still will likely be joined by like-minded players who enjoy the early upstart more... Their lineage is only more likely to be on the hit list for slack hours (unless people /die there also too much, then they will even join there).

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-23 11:31:49)

Tarr · 2018-12-23 12:12:40

As someone who mainly uses this exploit lets talk this over.

jasonrohrer wrote:

HOWEVER, these two combined mean that after founding a village as Eve, and dying of old age, you can guarantee that you can always play in that same village, forever, by executing /DIE until you are Eve again, which will cause you to respawn in you last Eve death location. And making sure you always die of old age each time.

I don't ever spawn back to my feral Eve spawn as a city Eve unless it's hours later when they've moved further up the tech tree. I almost always pop between different villages within the server instead of the same city over and over. At most I've spawned to the same location seven times in a row and generally I might hit the same spot a few times but usually I'll cycle through cities with different spawns.

Towns are already lost nearly weekly due to the culling of map tiles and at most on server 1-2 a city lasts what three weeks? As is I feel like the current loss of towns is good where it is as you only play in them long enough to not get sick of seeing the same place over and over.

There's a very clear divide between people who like early game and late game so killing off the ability for people to be born in towns just annoys the late game player base. The early game players of course can just /die themselves to early game but late game players can't just /die until they reach a city if none exist on the server. City Eves at the very least solve the problem for the second group of players as it means there is always going to be at least one village on the server going (unless there are no city eve players available at the time.)

Last edited by Tarr (2018-12-23 12:13:47)

alphabetter · 2018-12-23 12:38:51

honesty, I feel like if you want to talk about this, then you have to bring up the whole 'no girls' issue. a lot of the time, bigger cities die because of a lack of girls being born or surviving, and the only way to not alienate those who DO like playing in big cities is to keep the eve spawn the way it is. otherwise, almost no cities will last overnight, and have very little chance of ever being seen again.

however, if you want to address the issue of the same eve spawning to the same city over and over, I'm happy to talk about that. I've eve chained before and ended up spawning to the same big city four days in a row, not counting other lives lived there. at that point, I was sick of the city, so i purposely ended my eve streak so I could go somewhere else. maybe there could be a limit to how many times you spawn back in one city?? playing ten lives in one town isn't fun to me, and I'd be fine with that changed.

Booklat1 · 2018-12-23 12:47:55

As tarr said, you wont always spawn back in your town while on the main servers. Sure you can cycle until you eve and you will spawn in a previous spawn, but it's not always your own. I've mostly spawned in bell towns when using this method.

And also, it would feel terrible if we started losing towns even more often. This game needs more ways to keep towns going, for players to tryhard and feel invested. Eve chaining does all that with the occasional bonus consequence of allowing a second eve birth to the same spot you started.

Changing this before making multiple towns viable and lines more stable would be a mistake I think. We haven't had a lasting town since cassino city. There is so much in society and communication tech and feaures that could be added in this game, please add that before fixing one occasional eve exploit.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2018-12-23 13:51:12

Jason,

I don't really care if you change this particular mechanic, do what you want.

I do want to let you know - I'm not loyal to my lineage. I'm loyal to towns that are good. Based on this post, I'm not sure you realize how common that is.

When you imply that "keeping villages alive forever" is a problem, it worries me. If we do a good job of reviving a place repeatedly, will you make more changes that make it harder to find again? For example, see my threads on what I call the "Two Bell Berry Patch". I've played in this same town in more than half a dozen families over a couple of weeks. I've been the only baby of a wandering Eve who discovered the road system and ran joyously to the heart of the abandoned town. (not a re-spawned Eve) I find it fun to go back and see what has changed.

I get that we will lose all the towns every couple of months to a server wipe - like when you added the jungle biome. But based on this conversation, I'd like some assurance you see a place for the rediscovery of old towns as part of the gameplay, and not an accident of your changes to the Eve spiral.

Maybe you've clarified this in the past...but as a player that joined with the Steam tsunami, I wasn't part of those conversations.

Dodge · 2018-12-23 17:28:57

I dont think i ever spawned back as eve in a village that i started, on a populated server when you die of old age as eve i seem to take the location of someone as my next eve spawn point,

yes that might include my location or the location of someone in the village i started but eventually i will spawn somewhere else, so you cant keep the same village alive forever

Sure eve spawn mechanic could be nerfed IF eve spawns are closer, road making is faster (placing just one road tile requires four stone hits), road materials are craftable and use ressources, we can transport people in cars, we can have more than one home/bell marker, we can share home marker (location of hometown with destination town for example) with other players

This would increase village interaction but at the same time make it harder since a village couldnt relly as much on eve's to be revived

Current system is fine, i actually havent seen really long lasting cities like before steam release, some cities get revived now and then but usually end up dying

I think the only way this could really be a problem is if a lot of new players learn about this mechanic and we end up with 50+ eve's reviving towns but even then towns would probably eventually end up dying

And if this really happens we could have a new apocalypse , why not a new time based apocalypse with the "ancient system" that couldnt be rushed since you need each step to become ancient like for example each step would require one day to become ancient .

Or simply the old apocalypse with the ancient system, triggered by killing the horse with a snake venom coated knife, mixing his blood with kerosene and lighting it up /devious

pein · 2018-12-23 17:47:26

i like spawning back, and ikts not that easy
i would like to spawn back more often
i generally quit on cities i didn't contributed to, due to lag and the fact they build dumb style cities, with useless rp rooms in middle of desert or greeen biome with no reason other than to spend their time which hurts on resources and optimization
mostly i see the roads in middle of city regardless of the map, just to extend out more
those lifes are not fun, so even if you do the nearly impossible eve run and live to 60 and get back there, requires multiple hours of play and all you get a bit more info about map, while you still popping babies so that's fine i guess, some people got recognizable cities and generally a veteran always shapes the map, and some of us makes decent outposts and stuff
i would like to get back more to my cities, as its boring to revive other people cities, the projects i start make me happy to see again and i don't like reviving bad cities, eventually i stay in cities and play it out but repairing errors and trying to rearrange is harder than make a new

Tarr · 2018-12-23 18:02:04

Dodge wrote:

I dont think i ever spawned back as eve in a village that i started, on a populated server when you die of old age as eve i seem to take the location of someone as my next eve spawn point,
yes that might include my location or the location of someone in the village i started but eventually i will spawn somewhere else, so you cant keep the same village alive forever

Basically this, I played five eve lives back to back to back.

First lineage was a completely dead town with no other players in it. Filled the village up my little children and died of old age like normal.
Second lineage was born with the original family. Tarr + Deatherage lived together for a little bit but I didn't have girls so this lineage dies out quickly.
Third lineage is now in a completely new town but this town has a family living in it. Oo and Knight family end up living together while I try working on a second outpost west.
Four lineage is born with the Knight and Oo family. Ai lives and dies within a few generations.
Fifth lineage is the Merchant family who I believe are still going atm.

I ended up hitting one town twice, and the other town thrice. Neither of these places did I end up eveing originally but had been to at some point of play or another. While you can dump fresh lineages into a city you cannot choose which city you are dumping children into this is why cities eventually die and get culled. Eventually city Eves stop getting dumped into a place and the place is completely lost over time.

West · 2018-12-23 18:11:16

I dont think this needs fixing. Very few people actually use it, and for those who use it, it really is a nice feature of the game.

lionon · 2018-12-23 18:24:27

CrazyEddie wrote:

I think the big towns with the top-tier tech are continuing to exist because they have bells and you tightened the Eve spawn spiral so people are spawning closer to them and are making the journeys to repopulate them from scratch. I think that means it's working as intended.

I disagree, bells do virtually nothing unless you spawn as eve really close to a bell tower...

But anyway, since kids are distributed equally between amount of alive females (and some heat chances) travelling to a bell tower as female does hardly do anything. Either you have to spawn quite close or you have to steal a horse or even car do have a chance to get there while still fertile... and even then you probably will lose or have to abandon half your children on the journey.

Whenever I actually made a bell run, I mostly born 1-2 kids in the receiving town.. and they usually die off in the next generation.

Anyway, I consider this topic a little akward reflecting the discussions over the last weeks, there seems to be quite a consensus that nocturnal slack times y-chromosome RNG dishes are a problem, yet I've not heard one complaint about this "issue" of Eves restarting towns.

PS: Restarting a town can be a challenge on its own... especially if a end-time-griefer has for example killed all the sheep, hid all the iron and you don't have natural fertile soil patches to start it all up like you would normally, nor is iron in reasonable reach without horse cart.

PPS: Actually there is one thing that a bell does, that is inform you there is a town, so if you want to see it you can /die until you are there. If you born as girl this effectively almost the same than travelling there, only much, much faster.

MultiLife · 2018-12-23 19:35:35

Yeah I don't really see Eve chaining as a problem. My only suggestion is still to just put a cooldown on your death spot so you can't get right back to your camp, unless you play x amount of lives to unlock the old spawn location.

I've never seen an everlasting town or city anyways. They all die, get revived, die, are lost. If you want to put more difficulty in the long projects like bell towers, I don't think this is the right direction. Again, I'm getting confused over what is wanted from this game in the end. I think it's good right now. Add the ghosting feature so I can go look at my camps and I'm good! I don't have to be reviving them, I'd just like to browse through them and maybe sometimes drop in to start my line again.

I have never used the exploit to get to visit my old camps, but man would I like to see what they had become after I died... Seeing my old camp after eight generations was great, but has happened to me only once... I put a lot of effort to finding good locations as Eve, so I'd love to go back to revive them from time to time. I'd rather revive my old town with guaranteed great location than some other, badly established town. And not everyday! Just here and again.

Tarr wrote:

Fifth lineage is the Merchant family who I believe are still going atm.

Yeah we just died out, I was Tom Merchant, the last one in our line (just gen 8). Tarrs took over. I was the one wondering what the newcomen pump needed.

But as can be seen, even with Eves reviving, the families die out quite quickly. Tarrs had just arrived when Merchants keeled over.

Booklat1 · 2018-12-24 00:17:59

lionon wrote:

CrazyEddie wrote:
I think the big towns with the top-tier tech are continuing to exist because they have bells and you tightened the Eve spawn spiral so people are spawning closer to them and are making the journeys to repopulate them from scratch. I think that means it's working as intended.
I disagree, bells do virtually nothing unless you spawn as eve really close to a bell tower...
But anyway, since kids are distributed equally between amount of alive females (and some heat chances) travelling to a bell tower as female does hardly do anything. Either you have to spawn quite close or you have to steal a horse or even car do have a chance to get there while still fertile... and even then you probably will lose or have to abandon half your children on the journey.
Whenever I actually made a bell run, I mostly born 1-2 kids in the receiving town.. and they usually die off in the next generation.
Anyway, I consider this topic a little akward reflecting the discussions over the last weeks, there seems to be quite a consensus that nocturnal slack times y-chromosome RNG dishes are a problem, yet I've not heard one complaint about this "issue" of Eves restarting towns.
PS: Restarting a town can be a challenge on its own... especially if a end-time-griefer has for example killed all the sheep, hid all the iron and you don't have natural fertile soil patches to start it all up like you would normally, nor is iron in reasonable reach without horse cart.
PPS: Actually there is one thing that a bell does, that is inform you there is a town, so if you want to see it you can /die until you are there. If you born as girl this effectively almost the same than travelling there, only much, much faster.

I've helped other lines reach gen 35 by spawning as a city eve and ringing a bell. Its not so bad to go from a big city to a bell city, it helpsagainst people trying to wipe lines.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2018-12-24 00:18:27)

Baker · 2018-12-24 04:23:34

I personally get tired of living in the same old towns all week. There isn't anything to do late-game besides roleplaying and working.

betame · 2018-12-24 12:39:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

But the net result affects everyone, because the same villages are kept alive even after they die, removing the challenge of reaching higher tech or longer-term projects (like the bell tower).

This appears to be the only given reason for making a change. Plus the overall vision for the game of course.

There's been discussion over what makes the game of long-lasting civs challenging. It's not iron, or charcoal, or labor. It's instead lack of baby girls, caused by RNG and nocturnal infertility -- things no player can ever master. Removing eve-save-revivals will exacerbate those challenges that are outside of player control.

Others here have mentioned population crashes too, and they're supported by thundersen's graphs of server populations over time.

jasonrohrer · 2018-12-24 23:12:08

Well, the idea here is that what you are doing in EVERY life should really matter.

In late-game infini-towns, nothing you do matters much. There's a kind of listless feeling to living there. If you screw up, and the town dies out, it will be revived by some Eve.

One idea, regarding fertility, is that towns are supposed to be competing for babies. If all the fertile women huddle near the fire, they will swamp the heat weighting and "attract" babies. I will also add yum bonuses into the mix here (the women with the highest yum bonus will also have the highest chance of having a baby).

But yes, lineage bans are a problem here too during nighttime hours. Ideally, a small group of friends would be able to keep an important town alive through the night, but lineage bans clearly prevent that (though the lineage bans only kick in when server population is large enough). Lineage bans are really important the rest of the time, though..... so it's hard to reconcile these two things.

Greep · 2018-12-24 23:54:20

Well ultimately solving the nocturnal infertility would just ends up making infinitowns on steroids, right?: Keeping a town alive is very easy if you have experienced people coordinating, which is what would happen during night hours without any lineage banning as inexperienced players quit. With chain eveing, it's mostly relying on one or two people to not get ultra bored of their town and also not slip up and starve at age 58 (which happens a lot due to the hunger bell not chiming in old age heh).

Probably the only way of killing off infini towns while also giving a sense of meaningful town contribution is regular server wipes every week or so. A week is probably more time than a current town gets anyways.

That said, I've always thought the bigger towns were more interesting because people actually have time to talk and organize to do more "fun stuff". Like you're not going to see people making two full time guards for their religious ancient banzai tree in the temple as a suburb plays capture the flag with it in a pre-pump town xD And even then, half the town needs to be maintainers. In a pre-pump town, 90% of the stuff you're doing is soil/water/fire/compost/farming related. It's "important" but quite boring.

Another thing to consider is what do you do with eves and small towns at night time if you want to make females with better bonuses more fertile? That just makes it absolutely impossible for a small town to make it through the night. They may as well just step on a bear if they want to work on a town. Most players aren't aware of nocturnal infertility even (people on the forums do but probably are no longer the majority) or most of these hidden calculations and stuff, so they will just keep playing these doomed stone age towns and being annoyed.

Last edited by Greep (2018-12-24 23:59:53)

MultiLife · 2018-12-25 00:55:07

I'd rather have wounds and diseases in the game to make late game cities harder to preserve than cutting down Eve stuff.

I wouldn't want weekly wipes to destroy a place, I'd rather lower the chances of a revival instead which slowly drops the chances to near zero in time, so we won't see the same place all the time, rather it pops up sometimes. If you make weekly wipes I would start Eve chaining. "Better get a town going asap after a wipe so it can evolve before the next wipe". Not good.

But yeah as I use no exploits, I just want to say that I am RARELY Eve, like 1 Eve out of 25 lives maybe? And every time except two times I have just spawned to wilderness. So I have revived only two towns and one was my own.
If one starts trying to control Eveing, it'll interfere with solo play spawning. Maybe Eves shouldn't revive each others' towns so often? I feel like tens of families have lived in the current big cities in a short time window. At least Merchants, Knights and Tarrs lived in Oil town for example, some lineages overlapping and existing at the same time.

Last edited by MultiLife (2018-12-25 01:00:22)

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#23 2018-12-24 23:12:08

Re: Question about Eve spawn location "exploit"

#24 2018-12-24 23:54:20

Re: Question about Eve spawn location "exploit"

#25 2018-12-25 00:55:07

Re: Question about Eve spawn location "exploit"

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