"Advantage" of fewer pips food.

Alias · 2019-01-14 09:50:26

Fish is bad not because how much food it gives that can go to waste. If it gave 15 instead of 20 it would be only worse. It's bad because of effort it takes and one bite it gives.

I don't understand why from time to time an argument returns that foods giving less pips have "advantage" of less food going to waste when overeating.
Popcorn is great not because of how little food it gives and thus how little is wasted, but because of it's multiple bites allowing better use of pips (and how well it compares to raw corn).
Best example is milk (forget butter for now). Drinking skim milk usually means less wasted food so it's better than whole milk, right? Of course not. Because no matter how much food is wasted from whole milk it will never make skim give you more. The only reasons to get skim milk are butter and yum, not less waste.

"Less waste" is barely a silver lining for worse (less calories) foods. Berries are good because of how many there are on single bush (plus cultivation advantages), not because how little food they give. If they gave suddenly double pips it would be only huge advantage and argument that now more is wasted would be silly.

Am I missing something?

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-14 10:24:58

I think its gotta do with the potential to waste rather then actual waste occurring, 20 pip foods always waste pips because you only have 20 pips at most, so if you tried to wait till all your pips were gone to not waste pips, you would just starve to death before you could eat it. That and most people arent gonna try to do any math for how much food they should each in a specific order to save the most pips when they are on the brink of starvation, as a result the higher pips a food gives, the better the chance some noob will eat it all 20 pips to return one pip of his own hunger. At that point any effort you put into getting that fish is now worth 1/20th of its original value because of how it was used at the worst case senario. But while i do agree that more effort shouldnt be put in to produce smaller foods, theres definitely a threshold for a effort to waste ratio that cant be overlooked.

Alias · 2019-01-14 10:40:29

I see your point. Every additional pip on food is a bit less efficient, but still there is no advantage for food giving less pips. None at all. Skim milk giving less food and so less waste is not even a shadow of any advantage over whole milk, right?

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 10:58:00

I wish fish had multiple bites to it. Devouring a whole fish just doesn't feel right. An average Arctic Char weighs 4.5 kg or something, wouldn't that feed a family??

But yes otherwise I do agree with all points here, make all kinds of foods and recognize food that you should eat when older so their value doesn't suffer.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-01-14 10:59:58)

Alias · 2019-01-14 11:07:11

Yes! 3 bites on a fish would be great. Or maybe two with different yum bonus potato style. All this effort would be worth it and would make fish excellent food for long trips when you have long yum already going. I vote "half cooked fish" as new food. if you depart on 10 yum bonus this would give around 60 pips and still keep the yum going.
BTW: is there a cool-down on ice hole after fishing Arctic Char? What are the odds on fishing? Cannot find anything on this. How many worms/hooks expected per fish?

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 11:23:33

Alias wrote:

Yes! 3 bites on a fish would be great. Or maybe two with different yum bonus potato style. All this effort would be worth it and would make fish excellent food for long trips when you have long yum already going. I vote "half cooked fish" as new food. if you depart on 10 yum bonus this would give around 60 pips and still keep the yum going.
BTW: is there a cool-down on ice hole after fishing Arctic Char? What are the odds on fishing? Cannot find anything on this. How many worms/hooks expected per fish?

+1 for half of cooked fish dish. Still lots of fish for just one person but it's fiiine!
No cooldowns as far as I've fished. Odds are really bad. Usually getting worms costs more than what the fish is worth with the low chances. You can get: nothing, lost hook, boot, fish. Not sure if they share the odds or not. They may be even.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-14 11:33:46

No, with skim milk specifically you would be putting more effort in for less food, now that im thinking about it it really comes down to 3 things:

. The effort put into making the food (for example sauerkraut requires alot of steps but something like a bowl of popcorn doesnt )

. The chance that a foods pip will be wasted (Pies are really bad for this and popcorn being the lowest pip food are the best)

. Pip/Tile Ratio (Basically whats the maximum amount of pips this food can be stored into on one tile)

The thing with popcorn is that although its easy to make, really effecient, it cant be stored into anything, as a result it has to be spread over multiple tiles making it a clutter, pies are the most effeceint storage food, only problem is that they require more effort then popcorn, and are one of the least effective pip giving food out there.

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-14 11:34:14)

Alias · 2019-01-14 13:05:05

MultiLife wrote:

Odds are really bad. Usually getting worms costs more than what the fish is worth with the low chances. You can get: nothing, lost hook, boot, fish. Not sure if they share the odds or not. They may be even.

Such a shame! I imagine chilling while finishing, socializing, chatting with another player fishing - about stuff in or outside the game. Little competition who would best fisherman today. And getting nice reward by the way. I would like to see fishing becoming this one day.

Tarr · 2019-01-14 13:17:45

Yeah fish are bad for all sorts of reasons:

Nonrenewable and not worth hunting down more worms - You "might" take the time to pull the worms out of the dirt piles but overall it's not worth doing that anyways. You could keep going further and further from town for more worms but if it's not worth pulling the worms out of the close piles it certainly isn't worth going out further for more worms.

Need to build a fishing fire or something to keep you warm - If you want to fish in the first place you either have to build flooring + fire so you can stand in the cold biome in the first place. Otherwise if you go in without prep you are going to burn more food overall than the damn fish is worth.

Chances of catching fish are lackluster. 60% chance to waste 5 seconds and need to recast, 15% chance to catch a fish, 15% chance to just lose your worm, 7.5% chance to catch a boot, 2.5% chance to lose worm + hook. So overall you have a 25% chance to lose the worm and get no return, 60% chance to waste time and reroll, or a 15% chance to get a fish. Unironically, you are more likely to strike oil than you are to catch a fish with each use.

Alias · 2019-01-14 13:25:38

Crumpaloo wrote:

No, with skim milk specifically you would be putting more effort in for less food, now that im thinking about it it really comes down to 3 things:
. The effort put into making the food (for example sauerkraut requires alot of steps but something like a bowl of popcorn doesnt )
. The chance that a foods pip will be wasted (Pies are really bad for this and popcorn being the lowest pip food are the best)
. Pip/Tile Ratio (Basically whats the maximum amount of pips this food can be stored into on one tile)
The thing with popcorn is that although its easy to make, really effecient, it cant be stored into anything, as a result it has to be spread over multiple tiles making it a clutter, pies are the most effeceint storage food, only problem is that they require more effort then popcorn, and are one of the least effective pip giving food out there.

As for popcorn I don't get it: you leave it in bowl for others to get yum, no additional clutter.

As for milk, forget butter/cream for now, lets say whole milk just turns to skim milk. Would you ever make bucket of skim milk instead of whole milk, because skim milk means less food wasted on average? I know I would not. The only reason then would be yum. Even if it means more food wasted, whole milk is better, because you at most waste part of food that skim milk never had in the first place.
Its like saying "I don't want to be rich because if Im robbed I can lose more money than if I'm poor" (a bit simplified).

Your list needs more points to account e.g. for food created from byproducts of necessary process. Raw mutton pies are byproducts of composting plus water. This is huge factor why they are so awesome and common.

Alias · 2019-01-14 13:29:51

Tarr wrote:

Chances of catching fish are lackluster. 60% chance to waste 5 seconds and need to recast, 15% chance to catch a fish, 15% chance to just lose your worm, 7.5% chance to catch a boot, 2.5% chance to lose worm + hook. So overall you have a 25% chance to lose the worm and get no return, 60% chance to waste time and reroll, or a 15% chance to get a fish. Unironically, you are more likely to strike oil than you are to catch a fish with each use.

Thanks! That's disheartening... But seems easy to buff, so maybe one day... I hope, because fishing is such a unique and flavorsome experience in this game. I want to make fishing expedition one day!

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-14 15:08:41

Alias wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
No, with skim milk specifically you would be putting more effort in for less food, now that im thinking about it it really comes down to 3 things:
. The effort put into making the food (for example sauerkraut requires alot of steps but something like a bowl of popcorn doesnt )
. The chance that a foods pip will be wasted (Pies are really bad for this and popcorn being the lowest pip food are the best)
. Pip/Tile Ratio (Basically whats the maximum amount of pips this food can be stored into on one tile)
The thing with popcorn is that although its easy to make, really effecient, it cant be stored into anything, as a result it has to be spread over multiple tiles making it a clutter, pies are the most effective storage food, only problem is that they require more effort then popcorn, and are one of the least effective pip giving food out there.
As for popcorn I don't get it: you leave it in bowl for others to get yum, no additional clutter.
As for milk, forget butter/cream for now, lets say whole milk just turns to skim milk. Would you ever make bucket of skim milk instead of whole milk, because skim milk means less food wasted on average? I know I would not. The only reason then would be yum. Even if it means more food wasted, whole milk is better, because you at most waste part of food that skim milk never had in the first place.
Its like saying "I don't want to be rich because if Im robbed I can lose more money than if I'm poor" (a bit simplified).
Your list needs more points to account e.g. for food created from byproducts of necessary process. Raw mutton pies are byproducts of composting plus water. This is huge factor why they are so awesome and common.

I just meant that popcorn as it is in a bowl cant be stored in baskets or wood boxes that would help it from being strewn all over the village.

The thing about milk and skim milk is that as far as i know its the only food item where you have to add something to it to get less pips out of it. So with all of other foods needing to have something added onto it to make it contain more pips (buttered bread,pies,stew) it doesnt make sense to compare the milk/skim milk mechanic to the rest of the foods as you are taking a direct and obvious net loss in food by making skim milk where with others like adding muttion and wheat will get you a net gain in potential pips, theres also a underlying issue that now since you get more pips in each bite theres a higher chance to have some of those pips wasted making you question whether you should of even made the pie in the first place if a certain amount of pips just ends up getting wasted anyways.

Really i just tried to make it as to the point as possible but i might make a actual thread later to elaborate on it so watch out for that.

Alias · 2019-01-14 20:19:18

Crumpaloo wrote:

The thing about milk and skim milk is that as far as i know its the only food item where you have to add something to it to get less pips out of it. So with all of other foods needing to have something added onto it to make it contain more pips (buttered bread,pies,stew) it doesnt make sense to compare the milk/skim milk mechanic to the rest of the foods as you are taking a direct and obvious net loss in food by making skim milk where with others like adding muttion and wheat will get you a net gain in potential pips...

Quite the contrary. You create skim milk by taking out cream of it after it separates. So those lost calories go into butter.
Skim and whole milk are good example because of their similarities. If by same proces you can get food giving more pips or food with less average loss you should go for more pips obviously.
If sip of whole milk gave 20 pips it would make it only better even though each sip would be a waste. There is no downside to it. None at all.
Same with cooked fish: the fact that it gives 20 pips is its strength, just lowering to any value would never make it better.
Giving little per bite on any food is never an advantage. More bites is, less per bite is not.

pein · 2019-01-14 20:33:04

fishing is ok for those boots, and it's a fun activity sometimes if you got a not so cold ice hole near camp, which also ok for sauerkraut
i do not plan on fishing, i just make it when the map is like that, like i made rosé pens, i didn't made it because of wanted to make that, but looking at the map with 80% savanna, made sense, and i was right, took me 40 min from the point of birth, which is quite low, i couldn't do a rose pen most maps, that map was fit for it
also i had eve run where we had a nice desert in between a swamp and some desert near an ice biome on right, i made eggs (before nerf)
and i could feed all my kids (steam update invasion)
and tarr was a grandkid and made sauerkraut
most maps worms endup middle of the camp and just a distraction and to tiresome to plant a rose to make a fishing rod to go to ice and fish with it
and its not an activity that benefits the community in any way
90% of time you still need pottery and compost to be self sustaining
but people need to have fun too so i get it why some people fish
to make it viable, we would need bowls to contain worms, and more worms per pit, and most results would be small fishes rather than nothing or losing bait

corn is a bit annoying if people eat it raw, maybe we should put in a box in baskets and have dry ones ready with a few bowls
other than that newbees can have fun with it, they are slow, they arent needing fast paced action, they can handle a corn plantation once you show them

i had 2 daughters planting milkweed in the other life, they used up 5 compost piles and they did the planting for like 30 min and they even taught their kids to do it
clever setup, teaching notes, set it and forget it
if its far enough from main camp but has all that you need, it can be viable

i guess the main concern is people wont born again there so they try to keep simple

the advantage of having pop corn is something else

a little story:
i was born to a camp with a decent skilled mom who tried to feed everyone, we had far away iron and not much of a chance for fast tech upgrades, and a lot of kids, but we had sheep pen
i was working on sheep but we had tiny farms and mostly berry only
it was just a question of time when the famine happens
mm did all she could to feed all kids, who were newbies

ather than fixing berries over and over i cut down corn when i born and replanted it

it came the time when we barely had any food and mom was stressed to feed them, then i told we got corn
she made popcorn and we were hanging for 10 more minutes, on that 10 minutes everyone worked on berry farm to soil and water the bushes
and some of us made it, so why corn is good? variety, teaching people how fast paced this game it is
and they got to work and contribute to keep others alive
if there would have been a lot of berries, they just eat it and eat it, never caring about food
never caring that the sheperd makes them soil, fixes the bushes
this way they realized the difficulty of the situation and taught them an important lesson: diversify and be ahead of the crisis

give them a fish, keeps them fed for 5 minutes
teach newbees to work hard, keeps you fed for a life

Alias · 2019-01-14 21:00:02

+1 for diversity. That's why since I learned about awesomeness of milk I spend most of lives getting cow and with last minutes teaching about milk including water maneuver and butter. Apart from being super efficient on resources its great emergency food. No food and waiting for berries? Give me one dried corn, water and buckets and you will drown in milk! "Dried" part can be tricky so sometimes I carry it in backpack or hide behind a tree.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-15 01:08:08

Alias wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
The thing about milk and skim milk is that as far as i know its the only food item where you have to add something to it to get less pips out of it. So with all of other foods needing to have something added onto it to make it contain more pips (buttered bread,pies,stew) it doesnt make sense to compare the milk/skim milk mechanic to the rest of the foods as you are taking a direct and obvious net loss in food by making skim milk where with others like adding muttion and wheat will get you a net gain in potential pips...
Quite the contrary. You create skim milk by taking out cream of it after it separates. So those lost calories go into butter.
Skim and whole milk are good example because of their similarities. If by same proces you can get food giving more pips or food with less average loss you should go for more pips obviously.
If sip of whole milk gave 20 pips it would make it only better even though each sip would be a waste. There is no downside to it. None at all.
Same with cooked fish: the fact that it gives 20 pips is its strength, just lowering to any value would never make it better.
Giving little per bite on any food is never an advantage. More bites is, less per bite is not.

Ok hold on, all the phrasing up until now had implied to me that you were putting cream or butter into the milk to make skim milk, but that not being true now it makes more sense to me. In all honesty though i gotta say that the yum bonus for buttered bread really isnt worth it, and the pips that get taken away from the whole milk isnt equal to the amount of pips you get out of the butter making you actually lose pips. Thats basically the same as wasting pips by eating food that you dont need that much of so no it wouldnt be logical to try to make buttered bread unless you had nothing better to do.

Alias · 2019-01-15 05:54:55

Whole milk - fat = skim milk + cream (aka future butter)

Thats basically the same as wasting pips by eating food that you dont need that much of so no it wouldnt be logical to try to make buttered bread unless you had nothing better to do.

Precisely. That's my point from the start. That's why buttered bread and skim milk is only made for yum (and fun... and paint) - even tough both those foods cause much less overeating waster than whole milk. But it doesn't matter because you overeat part of what skim + butter could never give you.
If at the same cost we could produce popcorn (4x3) and carrot rabbit berry pie (4x20) then it wouldn't matter that popcorn has amazing pip efficiency and pie has terrible efficiency and waste with every bite.

Last edited by Alias (2019-01-15 05:55:30)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-01-14 09:50:26

"Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#2 2019-01-14 10:24:58

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#3 2019-01-14 10:40:29

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#4 2019-01-14 10:58:00

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#5 2019-01-14 11:07:11

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#6 2019-01-14 11:23:33

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#7 2019-01-14 11:33:46

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#8 2019-01-14 13:05:05

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#9 2019-01-14 13:17:45

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#10 2019-01-14 13:25:38

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#11 2019-01-14 13:29:51

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#12 2019-01-14 15:08:41

Re: "Advantage" of fewer pips food.

#13 2019-01-14 20:19:18

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#14 2019-01-14 20:33:04

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#15 2019-01-14 21:00:02

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#16 2019-01-15 01:08:08

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#17 2019-01-15 05:54:55

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