Pip Efficiency

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-14 15:53:40

Pip Efficiency is a term used to describe the chance that a food could be wasted.

Example 1: Villager A is hungry for 10 pips so he eats two gooseberries, because the berries are 5 pips each he has not wasted any pips.

Example 2: Villager B is also hungry for 10 pips, but instead of eating gooseberries he goes for a muttion pie, because the pie gives 15 pips per bite the villager has wasted 5 potential pip.

In the first example the villager has eaten 2 berries to refill his 10 empty pips and so no pips are wasted, in the second one however 50% of the pips in that bite of mutton pie are wasted because the player did not have 15 pips or less empty.

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So in short the most efficient foods are the ones that give the least amount of pips, this is true since there is less of a chance that a person would eat food with such a high hunger bar and thus are less likely to waste pips on a food that does not give that many.

NOTE: Your player has 20 pips when fully grown, as a result you can only eat at most 19 pips in one bite, this will be useful for later

Examples (From Best to Worst):

Popcorn: Popcorn is the only 3 pip food option that can be reliably made, making it technically the most efficient food in the game currently

Bread: Bread, while not as efficient, is still lower then average with 8 pips making for a fair alternative to popcorn in some scenarios

Pies: Pies are some of the most filling foods in the game, and justly the easiest to waste, with up to 20 pips this food at times can waste a pip no matter how hungry you are, because your character can only have up to 20 pips once grown, they can only eat the food with one pip left otherwise they will starve to death, this means that you will be guaranteed to waste at least one pip, and with it being so filling its likely more then that will be wasted.

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However just because a food is efficient when eating it, that doesn't make it the go to food when you consider the other variables.

Effort: The more steps it takes to make something the more worth it will need to be to want to bake it in the first place

(Example: Tacos require alot of resources and time to make, so as a result people dont make them as often since they arent worth it)

Convenience: If you're village is doing something that creates a byproduct you can work with to make food

(Example: Compost cycle creates a byproduct of mutton to make into pies)

Storing: How much of it can you store in a tile

(Example: Pies are amazing for food storage since they can be stored into baskets, which can then be stored into boxes)

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Might edit this post later with updates but for now i want to ask you a few questions:

1. How many pips do you normally have when you start eating?

2. What food do you eat the most?

3. Are you a new player or not?

(Update): Alright so i calculated the average of all your post and the number came really close to three, but since there are no foods that give half pips i either had to round up or round down in foods.

Rounding down i found that sauerkraut is actually a pretty good food. With 6 pips per bite if you were to eat three bites worth you would be full if you were just a 2 pips hunger left, the average minimum hunger most of you told me.

Rounding up bread, eatting two bites of bread will increase your pip meter by 16, which will completely fill you up at 4 pips hunger left, the max average you all told me. However if you are under 4 pips of hunger you will need another bread which could end up wasting alot of the bread so just know that.

Last thing i wanna talk about are combo foods. Combo foods are basically two foods you would eat one after another to fill up your pip meter, heres a list of combo foods for reference:

.Cooked mutton + Gooseberry

.Cooked Mutton Pie + Popcorn

.Sauerkraut + Turkey Broth

.Bowl of Green Beans + Bowl of Stew

The basic idea is to disregard the efficiency of food entirely by using several foods to fill up your hunger. This guarrentees that if you watch what you eat in combination with other foods, you will never waste any food at all. Only problem is that instead of just scarfing down whatever food is closest to you, you are going to have to be actively thinking about how much each food gives you to make sure you dont waste any food. This slows doing your eating alot and is not good if you are trying to do stuff thats out of town where food options are not so varying.

In short you really wanna have a food or structure of foods that can end up giving you 18 or 17 pips.

Might make a update talking about the yum meter and how it affects this but for now id just like to hear some feedback...

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-15 00:39:20)

MultiLife · 2019-01-14 16:24:04

1. 2 pips, I'm afraid of surprise lag if I leave it to 1.
2. Pies.
3. Not new.

I've memorized how many pips different foods give so usually I am left with 1 pip empty or just full after eating.

Due to compost cycles, mutton pies are a must or we drown in clutter. I've seen many cities resorting to grilling mutton and giving it to kids' backpacks. It's sometimes just trash that you can eat so you do - to lessen the strain on berry farmers and composters.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-01-14 16:25:12)

Alias · 2019-01-14 18:45:29

1. 2-4, maybe more if this doesn't waste more than 2 pips.
2. Pies
3. Not new

With production cost being equal I still stand that better food is the one that gives most bites and most food total. And it seems a no-brained. That's why whole milk is much better than skim milk, even though skim milk has much better pip efficiency -that would be true even if their production cost was identical (so no cream)

Mandymom · 2019-01-14 19:24:47

1. typically 3-4, but it depends, I usually leave it to the point where I'm starving (especially in early game)
2. berries in early game and pies around mid game
3. fairly new but have done wiki research to get better at the game

Last edited by Mandymom (2019-01-14 19:26:23)

pein · 2019-01-14 20:06:50

3-4 due to lag or someone disturbing me, people should really not stand on the same tile as you do
im not really wasting much, when i eat berries i take care, but due to the speed im working, its better to just eat whenever im waiting for an action
for example snaring, when i wait rabbits, i eat when they fall, so i can have longer time collecting it and replacing it
smithing, i eat before smithing, and sometimes i put food there to prevent garbage placed on free tiles, i try to push more iron to kiln with each fire, generally im stil having a hot steel when the fire goes out, and i drop swap on something to make an empty flat rock

now here is the deal: threshed wheat and mutton meat will be excess if you got a decent sheperd, each life i make an apron and a straw hat, or multiple straw hats, that's not really included in compost cycle
yeah i can use up all poop for compost, meaning i got 6 for an apron, so needs 6 carrots and 6 bowls of berry and 6 wheat into 6x4 pies
this is heavily limited by the number of plates, the eve makes some then maybe someone else, once clay is out of the 50 tile distance, no one really gathers, i also seen a lot of stew makers just make 10 crocks and unable to fill them all which is dumb considering they cost 2 clay

i eat mostly pies, if i gather a lot, i eat a lot of wild food, cacti and wild berries mostly, i never starve, like 95% that i reach old age any game if i want to

bread is a staple food, and more people should do it if they see a lot of threshed wheat
need a knife but its not hard to make
carry to the berries so people eat that instead of berries

i see a lot of people tellign kids not to eat pie but they forget to tell them to eat pie when they are 14
bread stew and cooked mutton should be eaten between 8-13 and 40-54

if you do things en mass, its much better
an upgraded cart holds 6 bowls, fill 6 with berries, put 6 carrot i nit, use 6 straw to make compost, make 6 bread or 24 pies, etc.
same goes with tortilla , its quite easy to do when you got multiple
now that needs 1 flat rocks to do it at once (only take one dough out of each bowl so it wont become bread), that's 7 flat rocks , one is to cook it, yeah is a lot, but you can roll them and leave them there, still more use than a graveyard or a fast road
make a fire, cook 4 bean bowls with water (stew is without water), that needs 24 beans which is 4 rows and 1 more for seeds maybe, do this like 50 tiles away from camp or gets messy
roll the 6 tortilla, put flat rocks on ashes after you cooked them all, you can put the rest of dough
cook that all too
after you got a stack of 6, put cooked beans on it
now this is 6 food of 20 pips (yeah i know its get wasted 20% sometimes) each plate which is 150% better plate usage than pies with 4 bites
not that portable, but cleans up the wheat faster
costs 10 soil, 5 tills initial, then 6 soil and 5 tills next time

you can cook rabbits, goose, paper on ashes in the meantime

my other experiment on s13 was planting pine for firewood
playing a lot of hours, keeping up the fire needs 15 wood per hour, that's 8 trees per hour, saves some time on gathering if you just plant trees near the fire, cut them, you get extra butt logs for boards, pine to signal is for firewood
gotta try this:
plant trees in a formation of a small pen, with a front entrance(you need the stumps there so corner entrance wont work)
cut the trees, leave the stump, carry the goose inside when its grown, cut the trees, decap goose, plant new trees before you cut them, this increases its size and the stump blocks them for 1 hour until new trees are grown, have the entrance on bottom, so have this planted above the camp, as bottom trees cover until cut, but also you need the entrance fixed and the rest extending
making goose out of eggs, doubles their pip rating, doesn't use up dung, so might as well do it

CrazyEddie · 2019-01-14 20:44:24

Once the town is mature(*) food is not an issue, and "pip efficiency" is not worth worrying about. Yeah, don't get stupid with it, don't eat a pie or a mutton or a berry when you're only down two pips... but otherwise as long as you're fairly low when you eat and the town is fairly flush with food, it really doesn't matter. Do what is efficient with your time and labor with respect to your goals, not what is efficient with the resources that are locally abundant.

(*) Maturity is basically defined as "the compost cycle is working and someone is baking"

i see a lot of people tellign kids not to eat pie but they forget to tell them to eat pie when they are 14
bread stew and cooked mutton should be eaten between 8-13 and 40-54

In some towns there would be a lot of value from spending your whole life just standing in the berry farm telling adults to go eat stew.

carry to the berries so people eat that instead of berries

This is an underappreciated point. Put the alternate foods (bread, stew, burritos, tacos, turkey, broth, milk, mangos, popcorn, mutton) near the berries. People will run to the berries when they are in a hunger emergency, so make sure there's something there besides berries that they can grab. Also, it helps teach the berry-dependent people that alternate food exists; they can see the food and see other people eating it.

Don't put pies there; everyone knows about pies and everyone expects to get them from the bakery.

Don't prepare any of that food near the berries. Keep things uncrowded. Do your cooking in a separate space with plenty of room, but bring the final product over to the berries. Stew and broth of course will have to be put on a fire there, but do all the prep work for the crock someplace else.

this is heavily limited by the number of plates, the eve makes some then maybe someone else, once clay is out of the 50 tile distance, no one really gathers

There is never enough:

rope
bowls
plates
baskets
carts

Okay, maybe not never. By the time the town has a diesel pump they probably have enough bowls and baskets. But 90% of camps and settlements I've been in are drastically undersupplied on these basic containers.

There's usually enough buckets, barely.

Alias · 2019-01-14 21:07:37

Until you get cow. The suddenly there are no buckets available...

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-15 01:09:45

Did a update the post

Alias · 2019-01-15 06:16:03

I think that "pip efficiency" should be important factor only when deciding what food to eat, not what food to make. All it means is "overeat as little as viable".

When producing you want to make most total calories at the least cost (least time, ingredients etc). By this standard berries, popcorn, milk, mutton pie, turkey broth are great foods to make and indeed they are, while they have different pip efficiency. When producing, "pip efficiency" could only matter in edge cases and specifically when comparing foods that give different amount of bites. Actually I cannot right now think of any such case where pip efficiency decides which food is better to make.

Also, what pein hinted, there is the matter of time. "Pip efficient" food is basically "time inefficient" and time is the most prescious resource in this game.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-15 07:04:51

Alias wrote:

I think that "pip efficiency" should be important factor only when deciding what food to eat, not what food to make. All it means is "overeat as little as viable".
When producing you want to make most total calories at the least cost (least time, ingredients etc). By this standard berries, popcorn, milk, mutton pie, turkey broth are great foods to make and indeed they are, while they have different pip efficiency. When producing, "pip efficiency" could only matter in edge cases and specifically when comparing foods that give different amount of bites. Actually I cannot right now think of any such case where pip efficiency decides which food is better to make.
Also, what pein hinted, there is the matter of time. "Pip efficient" food is basically "time inefficient" and time is the most prescious resource in this game.

Ok well lets look at a hypothetical situation, say you have one fish for 20 pips, and now say you also have 4 berries which would total up to 20 pips. Lets also assume that the time it takes to get either food choice is little or not varying at all. Because of the pip efficiency of the berries you equally feed four people with minimal chance of over-feeding, however because the fish is so in-efficient you can at most only feed one person, and because no ones gonna wait until they have one pip left to eat food you are most likely going end up wasting more of it. Now lets bring it back in, lets say that now fish take 10 seconds to get and berries take 12.5 seconds, even though the fish requires less time to make, the berries are four times more efficient then a single fish. My point is the game can say your getting a 20 pip fish, but in reality your getting a 1-19 pip fish. Same thing with berries, your not getting a 5 pip berry, you are getting a 1-5 pip berry, the only difference is the margin of waste in berries is ALOT smaller then a fish. So you could be making as many mutton pies as you want, but as soon as kids start eating your pies, or lazy villagers take a second bite of that 15 pip pie you may not notice it, but it does have a bigger affect then you think whether its directly noticeable or not. I think its the fact that you cant see just how much people are wasting that makes it so easy to sweep under the rug.

That being said do you not take a second bite of a pie when its already in your hand? I do, it saves time and i dont feel like putting down one food to just eat another to save pips. My point being if im being really stingy about being effective with pips and still doing this, what does that say about new players and vets who no doubt have done stuff like this for eons? Not bashing anyone im just making a case for what i beleive to be a genuinely good idea.

Alias · 2019-01-15 07:47:04

I would like to see two actual foods comparison where "pips efficiency" is deciding factor what to produce, without assuming production cost equal.

But still this example is good. What makes 4 berries better than one fish in some scenarios (not all of them, far from it!) is not how little pips each berry gives, but how many bites you have. You gain nothing from lowering pips per bite - you gain only from increasing bite count. Every single example for "pip efficiency" will include food with more uses, because this it the key to "pip efficiency" - not lower pips per bite. That is my point: there is nothing good from fewer pips per bite alone, contrary to popular argument. Single berry gains nothing from giving less pips than single fish if production cost was the same. That's why you included multiple berries - key factor is "more bites", not "less calories per use".

My counter example is simple: if producing 4 berries costed as much as producing mutton pie, which would you choose? After all berries are much, much more pip efficient. This example underlines that desired thing is more bites/uses, not less pips per use.

Bowl of popcorn or bowl of whole milk (with equal cost)? Now this is more of dilemma - because popcorn has more bites than milk, not because how little one popcorn bite gives.

BTW I never intentionally take second bite of pie mutton.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-15 11:59:16

Sure, the rabbit carrot berry pie gives out 20 pips in four bites, and the rabbit carrot pie gives out instead 18 pips in four bites, and while it may look like the former would be better because it gives more pips it might as well be a over glorified version of the rabbit carrot pie.

This is because of a couple of reason:

1. Foods that advertise to replenish 20 pips can only at most do 19 because of the way your pip meter works so your actually losing 1 pip no matter how you eat it

2. Most people dont eat with 1 pip left remaining just because of the risk having a fatally low pip meter comes with, i asked and most people say they eat with 4 max and 2 min

Those two reasons alone drop the pie pip value down from 20, to 19, to around 18 which is you guessed it, the same pip value of the latter rabbit carrot pie making it a waste of not only time, but resources as well.

Popcorn Vs. Green Beans: Popcorn is pretty much all your hearing about these days, but green beans are practically identical in almost every way, they even have more bites then a popcorn and more pips overall yet popcorn is the go to snack for most kids in a village.

This is because kids need less pips then a adult you wanna minimize the amount of food they could waste, popcorn fillls this roll by giving kids three pips while the green beans gives four instead which intern increasing the chance that the food will be wasted by 33%.

That all being said the amount of uses a item has (or bites) is alot less important then the value of the item itself. You could have a hundred uses for a 1 pip food but so long as the value of that food is one pip all those uses dont mean jack. Its only until you raise the value of the food that the uses then start to have any meaning. Therfore because the lower value of food a pip is the harder it is for someone to waste the value of its pips, it would only make sense to produce the fastest to make, and lowest valued food in order to get the most return on investment no matter how many uses it has.

Alias · 2019-01-15 12:37:18

Popcorn is not so glorified because it gives so little per bite! If it gave 4x5 it would be much better than current 4x3 which at the same time would make it less "pip efficient".
Popcorn is better than green beans because corn plant gives more food and in more bites than bean plant:
6 bean x4 food is all you get from whole plant = 24 food.
From corn plant you get 4 ears, each ear can give 4 pocorn bites, each worth 3 food = 48 food. Double what bean plant gives. That is the reason.
EDIT: If beans gave 16 bites per plant like corn, but still each bite would be 4 pips vs 3 pips from popcorn, you think beans wouldn't be better choice just because popcorn means less waste? Of course beans would be better, because even with considerable waste they would give more food than corn. Not 33% more, but more. And more is better.

The more pips food gives per bite the better is the food.
The more pips food gives per bite the worse it's "pip efficiency".
When you equalize bite/portion count you get from food all that matters is raw pips: the more the better food is, and the worse it's "pip efficiency"
Conclusion: The better the food, the worse is it's pip efficiency".

Last edited by Alias (2019-01-15 13:11:33)

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-15 15:19:20

Alias wrote:

Popcorn is not so glorified because it gives so little per bite! If it gave 4x5 it would be much better than current 4x3 which at the same time would make it less "pip efficient".
Popcorn is better than green beans because corn plant gives more food and in more bites than bean plant:
6 bean x4 food is all you get from whole plant = 24 food.
From corn plant you get 4 ears, each ear can give 4 pocorn bites, each worth 3 food = 48 food. Double what bean plant gives. That is the reason.
EDIT: If beans gave 16 bites per plant like corn, but still each bite would be 4 pips vs 3 pips from popcorn, you think beans wouldn't be better choice just because popcorn means less waste? Of course beans would be better, because even with considerable waste they would give more food than corn. Not 33% more, but more. And more is better.
The more pips food gives per bite the better is the food.
The more pips food gives per bite the worse it's "pip efficiency".
When you equalize bite/portion count you get from food all that matters is raw pips: the more the better food is, and the worse it's "pip efficiency"
Conclusion: The better the food, the worse is it's pip efficiency".

Well i dont doubt that increasing the value of a certain food for the same amount of effort is a positive, even if you are losing pips that would still be free pips if it were increased. As for the whole popcorn vs green beans thing, the pips you get from green beans can actually be made faster then the pips for popcorn. This is because of a couple things:

1. greenbeans grow in 4 minutes, and corn the same, however to dry the cob takes another 4 minutes which by then another set of green beans could already of been done
this put them both at about even produce

2. because greenbeans require no steps to make them edible unlike popcorn where you need to shuck the corn, put it in a bowl, go find a fire, then pop it, it gives green beans zero down time between being fully grown, and ready to eat, making them produce food faster then popcorn with the down time on popcorn itself depending on how fast the guy making popcorn would be.

But that all being said id still probably pick popcorn because of how hard it would be to waste the food. For high pip foods, its not that they are actively bad foods, its that they are inherently wasteful because of how many pips one bite contains and several uses of a high pip pie are only gonna multiply that problem.

Basically the more pips in a certain food, the more you have to lose from someone wasting it. Compare a mutton pie to one piece of popcorn, if someone refills only one pip with the pie you've lost a net of 14 pips, on the other hand if someone refills only one pip with popcorn the popcorn only loses two pips. Thats 7 times the potential to waste a pie then the a piece of popcorn, so if you got a bunch of noobs in your town and they are just eating anything they can find. would you want them scarfing down on the pies or the popcorn?

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-15 15:22:49)

Alias · 2019-01-15 16:46:02

Crumpaloo wrote:

Alias wrote:
Popcorn is not so glorified because it gives so little per bite! If it gave 4x5 it would be much better than current 4x3 which at the same time would make it less "pip efficient".
Popcorn is better than green beans because corn plant gives more food and in more bites than bean plant:
6 bean x4 food is all you get from whole plant = 24 food.
From corn plant you get 4 ears, each ear can give 4 pocorn bites, each worth 3 food = 48 food. Double what bean plant gives. That is the reason.
EDIT: If beans gave 16 bites per plant like corn, but still each bite would be 4 pips vs 3 pips from popcorn, you think beans wouldn't be better choice just because popcorn means less waste? Of course beans would be better, because even with considerable waste they would give more food than corn. Not 33% more, but more. And more is better.
The more pips food gives per bite the better is the food.
The more pips food gives per bite the worse it's "pip efficiency".
When you equalize bite/portion count you get from food all that matters is raw pips: the more the better food is, and the worse it's "pip efficiency"
Conclusion: The better the food, the worse is it's pip efficiency".
Well i dont doubt that increasing the value of a certain food for the same amount of effort is a positive, even if you are losing pips that would still be free pips if it were increased. As for the whole popcorn vs green beans thing, the pips you get from green beans can actually be made faster then the pips for popcorn. This is because of a couple things:
1. greenbeans grow in 4 minutes, and corn the same, however to dry the cob takes another 4 minutes which by then another set of green beans could already of been done
this put them both at about even produce

No it doesn't. It requires additional soil, hoe use, space, water,effort. You play down key factor of corn success.

2. because greenbeans require no steps to make them edible unlike popcorn where you need to shuck the corn, put it in a bowl, go find a fire, then pop it, it gives green beans zero down time between being fully grown, and ready to eat, making them produce food faster then popcorn with the down time on popcorn itself depending on how fast the guy making popcorn would be.
But that all being said id still probably pick popcorn because of how hard it would be to waste the food.

Really? That's why? If popcorn gave 4 pips per bite instead it would be less attractive to you?? Would you also pick skim over whole milk because of how easy is to waste food from whole milk?

For high pip foods, its not that they are actively bad foods, its that they are inherently wasteful because of how many pips one bite contains and several uses of a high pip pie are only gonna multiply that problem.

We don't minimize environmental waste in this game. We maximize calories intake. That's why less calories per bite is worse than more. We both have 10 empty pips you eat all your popcorn and now have no food plus you wasted 2 pips and broke your yum bonus. I eat my mutton pie, wasted 5 pips but have ton of food more. Yes, I wasted more, but it is you who will die of starvation. Your last words can be "my food was more pip efficient".

Good food is max food per bite and max bites per "package". There is no room here for "less pips per food is better" unless it comes from "more bites per package".

Bonus question: would you choose any food before +2 flat bonus over its current version? This bonus made all foods less pips efficient right?

Your reasoning is exactly the fallacy i want to deal with.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-15 17:38:37

Alias wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
Alias wrote:
Popcorn is not so glorified because it gives so little per bite! If it gave 4x5 it would be much better than current 4x3 which at the same time would make it less "pip efficient".
Popcorn is better than green beans because corn plant gives more food and in more bites than bean plant:
6 bean x4 food is all you get from whole plant = 24 food.
From corn plant you get 4 ears, each ear can give 4 pocorn bites, each worth 3 food = 48 food. Double what bean plant gives. That is the reason.
EDIT: If beans gave 16 bites per plant like corn, but still each bite would be 4 pips vs 3 pips from popcorn, you think beans wouldn't be better choice just because popcorn means less waste? Of course beans would be better, because even with considerable waste they would give more food than corn. Not 33% more, but more. And more is better.
The more pips food gives per bite the better is the food.
The more pips food gives per bite the worse it's "pip efficiency".
When you equalize bite/portion count you get from food all that matters is raw pips: the more the better food is, and the worse it's "pip efficiency"
Conclusion: The better the food, the worse is it's pip efficiency".
Well i dont doubt that increasing the value of a certain food for the same amount of effort is a positive, even if you are losing pips that would still be free pips if it were increased. As for the whole popcorn vs green beans thing, the pips you get from green beans can actually be made faster then the pips for popcorn. This is because of a couple things:
1. greenbeans grow in 4 minutes, and corn the same, however to dry the cob takes another 4 minutes which by then another set of green beans could already of been done
this put them both at about even produce
No it doesn't. It requires additional soil, hoe use, space, water,effort. You play down key factor of corn success.
2. because greenbeans require no steps to make them edible unlike popcorn where you need to shuck the corn, put it in a bowl, go find a fire, then pop it, it gives green beans zero down time between being fully grown, and ready to eat, making them produce food faster then popcorn with the down time on popcorn itself depending on how fast the guy making popcorn would be.
But that all being said id still probably pick popcorn because of how hard it would be to waste the food.
Really? That's why? If popcorn gave 4 pips per bite instead it would be less attractive to you?? Would you also pick skim over whole milk because of how easy is to waste food from whole milk?
For high pip foods, its not that they are actively bad foods, its that they are inherently wasteful because of how many pips one bite contains and several uses of a high pip pie are only gonna multiply that problem.
We don't minimize environmental waste in this game. We maximize calories intake. That's why less calories per bite is worse than more. We both have 10 empty pips you eat all your popcorn and now have no food plus you wasted 2 pips and broke your yum bonus. I eat my mutton pie, wasted 5 pips but have ton of food more. Yes, I wasted more, but it is you who will die of starvation. Your last words can be "my food was more pip efficient".
Good food is max food per bite and max bites per "package". There is no room here for "less pips per food is better" unless it comes from "more bites per package".
Bonus question: would you choose any food before +2 flat bonus over its current version? This bonus made all foods less pips efficient right?
Your reasoning is exactly the fallacy i want to deal with.

Soil or not green beans just takes less time to produce more, and i think ive said it already but dont make skim milk if you are gonna lose pips. Also when comparing the efficiency of a food you would want to have multiple eatings over time to figure out the average waste of each food. Trying the scenario you want would be like putting motor oil in a car that needed it, then directly after measuring its performance over the course of 5 seconds. Efficiency isn't something that happens instantly with the wave of a magic wand, its a repeated signs of improvment over time so trying to compare like that looking for instant results is only counterproductive and misleading.

CrazyEddie · 2019-01-15 17:44:47

Everything besides berries and pies is a vanity project.

pein · 2019-01-15 17:44:57

no, we plant stuff, based on soil usage and water usage, if you got no soil, will be no food, if no water, same thing
you can make compost, lot of people don't know how or don't want to

mangos were out when they increased them for 1 bucket per regrow
now they are ok, people still don't make it after they got the newcommen well, generally cause others don't do anything

you don't grow the food for yourself, you grow for the kids

and if you plan a strategy you just assume the worst
i seen kids grow hair and the first thing she does is to bite into a pie with 1 pip missing
why is it a problem?
an adult could raise a few more kids with that pie, and during a famine that exact berry you overeat would save a person

reliance on berries: if your city has 50%+ reliance on berries than nobody will do anything significant
you need to explore? you die if you go far
no packs? no food to get packs
no packs to get food from wilderness

sure people say oh there is enough compost or enough dung or enough pies
but when it changes, they still do nothing about it
having yum is ok, it saves a bit of food, even prevents overeating, also as i said, variety is needed to recognize a crysis but not to die to it

corn is annoying cause they can eat raw then it is a loss per soil
beans got a 2 minute window to use bowl on them for green beans and honestly not that great food
and if goes dry you get 100 bean seeds which will be planted everywhere, then a few more and more ad more, its like a plague

i tried the other day, i made 4 sets of bean burritos, and i had to eat some of it to keep working
and i don't know what happened to rest, they ate it way too early

for noob Hope, who walks around the city, until is 14, then stand near berry bushes munching berries with 5 kids, then runs out to swamp and dies to first boar and born back to one other girl, then does this over and over, doesn't matter what else can she eat

80% of population is dumb, you still got to keep alive 1-2 noobs

so more use is good when stationary, when going out to explore, ofc that mutton pie is best

now i don't mind to waste a bit cause i make up for it, plant it back, use up excess, without the work, the food wont make itself
so for convenience i eat berries or carrots or pies early
but i wont care about yum either
i make 6 bread until you find that burdock 100 tiles away
i make 4 pies and a compost until you eat some green beans
if all weirdo food would be on a dining area i would do it, if im closer to berries i eat berries, i still plant mangos or other stuff around if a lot of population is there but if its only me i don't care

carrots vs berries
varrots are faster and produce 35 pips
berries produce 30 pips
carrots use up hoe
and people forget to pick it but they love to water it
each carrot going to seed is a waste of time
each seed going to decay is a waste of soil

berries are better only cause of this, yet people leave one on it either because old myths or to lazy to fix it, and they don't know what to do cause no one tells them, not enough baskets, not enough bowls, not enough buckets, no soil, no water, bad infrastructure, etc.

you need to be efficient so others can survive
wasting soil, wasting food kills of the family line, learn to be efficient every single game, even if you got a lot, you will end up in a tight situation other game and your greed wont work
those who werent eves, don't know how to keep alive a family all alone
that's why efficiency matters, i had 12 kids and i kept the ones who could stay put and say f, i let the rest die
everything worked fine
you either teach noobs or let them die, letting them run around unsupervised is same as wasting food and resources

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-15 19:04:37

pein wrote:

no, we plant stuff, based on soil usage and water usage, if you got no soil, will be no food, if no water, same thing
you can make compost, lot of people don't know how or don't want to
mangos were out when they increased them for 1 bucket per regrow
now they are ok, people still don't make it after they got the newcommen well, generally cause others don't do anything
you don't grow the food for yourself, you grow for the kids
and if you plan a strategy you just assume the worst
i seen kids grow hair and the first thing she does is to bite into a pie with 1 pip missing
why is it a problem?
an adult could raise a few more kids with that pie, and during a famine that exact berry you overeat would save a person
reliance on berries: if your city has 50%+ reliance on berries than nobody will do anything significant
you need to explore? you die if you go far
no packs? no food to get packs
no packs to get food from wilderness
sure people say oh there is enough compost or enough dung or enough pies
but when it changes, they still do nothing about it
having yum is ok, it saves a bit of food, even prevents overeating, also as i said, variety is needed to recognize a crysis but not to die to it
corn is annoying cause they can eat raw then it is a loss per soil
beans got a 2 minute window to use bowl on them for green beans and honestly not that great food
and if goes dry you get 100 bean seeds which will be planted everywhere, then a few more and more ad more, its like a plague
i tried the other day, i made 4 sets of bean burritos, and i had to eat some of it to keep working
and i don't know what happened to rest, they ate it way too early
for noob Hope, who walks around the city, until is 14, then stand near berry bushes munching berries with 5 kids, then runs out to swamp and dies to first boar and born back to one other girl, then does this over and over, doesn't matter what else can she eat
80% of population is dumb, you still got to keep alive 1-2 noobs
so more use is good when stationary, when going out to explore, ofc that mutton pie is best
now i don't mind to waste a bit cause i make up for it, plant it back, use up excess, without the work, the food wont make itself
so for convenience i eat berries or carrots or pies early
but i wont care about yum either
i make 6 bread until you find that burdock 100 tiles away
i make 4 pies and a compost until you eat some green beans
if all weirdo food would be on a dining area i would do it, if im closer to berries i eat berries, i still plant mangos or other stuff around if a lot of population is there but if its only me i don't care
carrots vs berries
varrots are faster and produce 35 pips
berries produce 30 pips
carrots use up hoe
and people forget to pick it but they love to water it
each carrot going to seed is a waste of time
each seed going to decay is a waste of soil
berries are better only cause of this, yet people leave one on it either because old myths or to lazy to fix it, and they don't know what to do cause no one tells them, not enough baskets, not enough bowls, not enough buckets, no soil, no water, bad infrastructure, etc.
you need to be efficient so others can survive
wasting soil, wasting food kills of the family line, learn to be efficient every single game, even if you got a lot, you will end up in a tight situation other game and your greed wont work
those who werent eves, don't know how to keep alive a family all alone
that's why efficiency matters, i had 12 kids and i kept the ones who could stay put and say f, i let the rest die
everything worked fine
you either teach noobs or let them die, letting them run around unsupervised is same as wasting food and resources

Thats what i dont understand about new players, this game took me barley 5 days to learn all i needed to know and yet i still got people asking me how to smith, newbies need to watch and pay attention to whats going on, you can only craft with whats in your hand so it shouldnt be that hard to follow the carrot on the stick.

Alias · 2019-01-15 20:50:16

It thing Loss Aversion is a factor here, both for food waste and yum loss:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
You may tend to prefer food A that causes less waste than B even if after loss B gives you still much more. And so marginal factor is blown out of proportion.

@pein, what's up with corn and cows? Where are cows? Each life in mid or high level town there is no cows. I spend more and more lives getting it and teaching people but it seems no one does it.
Cow allows you to turn corn not into 4x3 pips popcorn, but into 10x14pips milk (at worst). Why people don't do it?? With water even single person can turn one corn plant into 1000+ food.

@Crumpaloo
We are not going anywhere with this. Claiming that beans let you produce more food is just false. "Soil or not" is statement of ignorance. It takes double soil, hoe, space and water to match output of (pop)corn. That's huge difference. One corn plant yield can be split into different uses: raw, popcorn, stew, milk.
You don't choose skim milk because it looses you pips from the start. Good. You don't choose beans over corn for the same reason: its less pips from the start.
Do you think flat +2 bonus makes food better or worse? It makes all food less "pip efficient". Still I say it makes it better. What do you say?

Finally: it's not debate how to split fixed amount of calories to max efficiency, because foods don't have same amount. Some are ridiculously powerful. Popcorns 4x3 is perhaps best allocation of 12 pips, but it's totaly trumped by brute power of milks 10x14. "But popcorn is more efficient..." no, it doesn't matter. It's efficient in use of 12% of what milk has to offer at worst. Wow. Silver lining at best.
I will choose 10 buckets of milk over 10 bowls of popcorn any day. And I will put it next to berries for kids without batting my eye. It's just better use of corn despite at least 10 times more going to waste. That's sheer power of more pips and uses. Less pips has zero power.
With other things being equal better food is the one that:
Gives more uses.
Gives more pips per bite, NOT less. Less is never better. Never.

No food can be improved by decreasing its overall pips and not changing anything else. Show me otherwise and I switch side. Turkey is 8x19 pips. Huuuuuge waste hmm? Improve this food by only limiting its pips.

Last edited by Alias (2019-01-15 20:54:54)

DestinyCall · 2019-01-15 21:26:28

There are many kinds of effiency. Pip effiency, iron efficiency, water/soil effiency, labor/time effiency, etc. A food item might have a high pip effiency, but very low cost effiency, in terms of labor or resource use.

It is not always easy to calculate the true cost of the final product, because there are many factors. For example, it costs you a lot more initial investment of time/resources to make three sisters stew, compared with popcorn, but a single crock produces many bowls of stews that each provide two large bites of food. Popcorn is pip-efficient and relatively time efficient too, but stew can keep a lot of adults fed and is very space efficient and handy. A good stew maker can supply a village with a stable food source that will feed people for many years. By comparison, trying to provide the same kind of food station using popcorn would require occupying dozen of bowls with popcorn and a bunch of floor space. People would be wasting popcorn to empty bowls so they could be used for other things or carrying popcorn bowls away and forgetting them in weird places. And when the bowls were all empty or scattered, would anyone think to make more popcorn? Doubtful.

There's a really good reason why the majority of villages have berries and mutton pies as the staple food. Other foods are nice supplements, but meat pies are the best food for travellers, because it is pip-dense, packable, and has multiple uses. And a properly tended berry patch provides a safe food station for children and elderly.

Worrying about a few "wasted pips" when you eat a mutton pie at 4 pips of hunger is useless. It just means there is very little practical difference between eating a rabbit pie, mutton pie, or rabbit with berry/carrot pie, other than yum bonuses.

pein · 2019-01-16 01:37:46

veterans consider milk too easy as it has no disadvantage, best case scenario you get 11 buckets of whole milk (use one bucket of water, minus a bowl, take out one from each, then when the water is empty use that too)
in reality you got 3 seconds for each milking which is quite hard for newbees to do more than 3, still worth it
newbees are generally more excited for pigs, and lack the skill to organize a cow capture
2 corn bowls, rope, 2 arrows, separate pen

generally 1 arrow ends up in each bear and that escapes, or they shoot bison once without lamb

also people are lazy to make new pen so they just use the existing one, when it followed you was easy enough to dig a wall and lure it, then fix it, now with rope is even easier
corn and milkweed is a lot of wait and people ruin it instantly, they turn ropes into stone hoes and random chests or skirts or 3rd bow

and buckets go to each and single well still, at least i havent seen too many newcommen wells

teaching kids can make those long processes done and they still enjoy it
once i taught a lil girl making stew, she was so excited, i done it once, then just helped and told her to do it, then she done it alone i just watched and after 5 sec i told hints
then she got older, had a kid, and we had no more crocks to make more
then i tried to teach the next kid but you need soil,setting up and time
now i can sort out the jobs for kids, something always happens, some people do it, and that makes that life much better
i had 2 newbee girls constantly making ropes, they used up 5 compost piles
we had excess , we had necessity, but in general in 20 minutes come all the problems no one is aware of and if i don't do no one else does so not too reliable
generally everything is faster to do it yourself
im fast enough that 6 bakers wont keep up with the mutton i produce
and im still composting and carry all the stuff to them

the general mechanic of the game is make compost, make soil and use soil to make more compost
that's why carrot, berries and mutton is staple
there are dedicated stew makers who don't make bellows, they make stew for 3 hours and you cant get a branch to make an axe
there are dog breeeders who ruin whole towns
some stuff just wont work
some just annoying, like eggs and beans

most of veterans just go for high tech, farming is boring
i like to make decent setups, generally it will cost the human interactions
noobs and griefers are too common, and the spawn rate is too much generally to teach everything, and people get cocky too early

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-16 17:03:37

Alias wrote:

It thing Loss Aversion is a factor here, both for food waste and yum loss:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
You may tend to prefer food A that causes less waste than B even if after loss B gives you still much more. And so marginal factor is blown out of proportion.
@pein, what's up with corn and cows? Where are cows? Each life in mid or high level town there is no cows. I spend more and more lives getting it and teaching people but it seems no one does it.
Cow allows you to turn corn not into 4x3 pips popcorn, but into 10x14pips milk (at worst). Why people don't do it?? With water even single person can turn one corn plant into 1000+ food.
@Crumpaloo
We are not going anywhere with this. Claiming that beans let you produce more food is just false. "Soil or not" is statement of ignorance. It takes double soil, hoe, space and water to match output of (pop)corn. That's huge difference. One corn plant yield can be split into different uses: raw, popcorn, stew, milk.
You don't choose skim milk because it looses you pips from the start. Good. You don't choose beans over corn for the same reason: its less pips from the start.
Do you think flat +2 bonus makes food better or worse? It makes all food less "pip efficient". Still I say it makes it better. What do you say?
Finally: it's not debate how to split fixed amount of calories to max efficiency, because foods don't have same amount. Some are ridiculously powerful. Popcorns 4x3 is perhaps best allocation of 12 pips, but it's totaly trumped by brute power of milks 10x14. "But popcorn is more efficient..." no, it doesn't matter. It's efficient in use of 12% of what milk has to offer at worst. Wow. Silver lining at best.
I will choose 10 buckets of milk over 10 bowls of popcorn any day. And I will put it next to berries for kids without batting my eye. It's just better use of corn despite at least 10 times more going to waste. That's sheer power of more pips and uses. Less pips has zero power.
With other things being equal better food is the one that:
Gives more uses.
Gives more pips per bite, NOT less. Less is never better. Never.
No food can be improved by decreasing its overall pips and not changing anything else. Show me otherwise and I switch side. Turkey is 8x19 pips. Huuuuuge waste hmm? Improve this food by only limiting its pips.

Pip Value affects Pip Efficiency, Pip efficiency is NOT affected with how many, uses,bites,or even number of the same food you have. One gooseberry flat out is more efficient then a cooked fish, you dont gotta add more uses, bites, or number of them to make it more efficient then a cooked fish, thats because the base pip value affects the pip efficiency of a item, NOT how many items,uses, or bites there are.

Ironically enough if you were to try to split up a item to increase its pip efficiency you would first need to decrease its pip value which is what i said earlier is the only thing that affects pip efficiency . If you were to then take away the amount of bites,uses,that you splitted up the previous value into, the item would still be more efficient then it was prior to being split up.

This is because pip efficiency is determined by the pip value of a item, NOT how many items,bites,or uses the food itself has. you could have 200 pips worth of food divided into 2 pip foods, and a single pip of food in one food and that single pip would still be more pip efficient then all of those pips combined. I think you are confusing the total number of pips a item or number of items SAYS it can give, and the pip efficiency of a food itself.

Also, what do you mean when you say improved? Are you talking about the efficiency of the food itself, if so just decrease the pip value of each bite of turkey to do that, and if were only changing the pip value of the turkey itself, and assume that no other variables would be changed, like the output of pips overtime, then yes lowering the pip value of the turkey would make it more pip effeceint and thus save more pips overall.

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-16 17:19:47)

Alias · 2019-01-16 20:27:15

Crumpaloo wrote:

Pip Value affects Pip Efficiency, Pip efficiency is NOT affected with how many, uses,bites,or even number of the same food you have. One gooseberry flat out is more efficient then a cooked fish, you dont gotta add more uses, bites, or number of them to make it more efficient then a cooked fish, thats because the base pip value affects the pip efficiency of a item, NOT how many items,uses, or bites there are.

Define your "pip value". Because bowl of popcorn and bowl of turkey have the same pip value and popcorn is more "pip efficient" specifically because it has spread it across more bites.

This is because pip efficiency is determined
Also, what do you mean when you say improved? Are you talking about the efficiency of the food itself, if so just decrease the pip value of each bite of turkey to do that, and if were only changing the pip value of the turkey itself, and assume that no other variables would be changed, like the output of pips overtime, then yes lowering the pip value of the turkey would make it more pip effeceint and thus save more pips overall.

Definition is simple: with other things being equal better food is the one that provides more calories to civilization, keeps bellies full, saves from starvation, lets families live longer than onworse food. Your solution to lower pips per turkey bite does EXACTLY the opposite, just to raise your counterproductive "pip efficiency". Don't you agree? Removing pips from food makes it worse. You really think people would survive longer on pre bonus turkey? Really??

You keep dodging question about removing +2 flat bonus. Jason created it to make our lives easier, made all foods instantly better. But you know better? By your standards he made it worse because he decreased "pip efficiency" of every single food. So does more pips (aka less "pip efficiency") from flat bonus make our lives easier or worse? By your standards pre bonus turkey is better than post bonus turkey, which is totally ridiculous.

Anyone else thinks that the flat bonus makes all foods worse because it decreases "pip efficiency"?

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-16 21:36:15

Alias wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
Pip Value affects Pip Efficiency, Pip efficiency is NOT affected with how many, uses,bites,or even number of the same food you have. One gooseberry flat out is more efficient then a cooked fish, you dont gotta add more uses, bites, or number of them to make it more efficient then a cooked fish, thats because the base pip value affects the pip efficiency of a item, NOT how many items,uses, or bites there are.
Define your "pip value". Because bowl of popcorn and bowl of turkey have the same pip value and popcorn is more "pip efficient" specifically because it has spread it across more bites.
This is because pip efficiency is determined
Also, what do you mean when you say improved? Are you talking about the efficiency of the food itself, if so just decrease the pip value of each bite of turkey to do that, and if were only changing the pip value of the turkey itself, and assume that no other variables would be changed, like the output of pips overtime, then yes lowering the pip value of the turkey would make it more pip effeceint and thus save more pips overall.
Definition is simple: with other things being equal better food is the one that provides more calories to civilization, keeps bellies full, saves from starvation, lets families live longer than onworse food. Your solution to lower pips per turkey bite does EXACTLY the opposite, just to raise your counterproductive "pip efficiency". Don't you agree? Removing pips from food makes it worse. You really think people would survive longer on pre bonus turkey? Really??
You keep dodging question about removing +2 flat bonus. Jason created it to make our lives easier, made all foods instantly better. But you know better? By your standards he made it worse because he decreased "pip efficiency" of every single food. So does more pips (aka less "pip efficiency") from flat bonus make our lives easier or worse? By your standards pre bonus turkey is better than post bonus turkey, which is totally ridiculous.
Anyone else thinks that the flat bonus makes all foods worse because it decreases "pip efficiency"?

Ok first i just said that bites, uses, and number of the items doesnt effect its pip efficiency so idk why you are still bringing that up, secondly when im talking about pip value im talking about when you pick up whatever food item it is and click on your avatar, im NOT talking about the total amount of pips that a single food item can give.

For the turkey you said that no other variables but the pip value would be decreased, so if you still got the same amount of pips at the end of making the turkeys then like i said before yeah it would be worth it because it would, changing anything else but the value of the turkey would be changing another variable which is what you said you didnt want so idk what your trying to prove here?

But seriously trying to imply that i think the pip efficiency would outweight the cost of decreasing the amount of pips in a food makes no sense. Decreasing the pip value of ANY food outright and changing nothing else is just losing pips. Sure the food would be more efficent but it doesn't matter now that you have just decreased it from its original value. Same scenario with Jasons flat bonus, wasteful or not those are free potential pips, and no other factors being changed its hard to understand why you would try to assume that that would be a bad thing. I never thought it was, nor claimed it in the first place, you did, so trying to assume i believe that when you yourself made the point in the first place has no merit whatsoever.

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