Clothing critique

Potjeh · 2019-01-02 00:44:21

IMO clothing in OHOL is rather underwhelming. It's a ton of work, and it doesn't really do you much good if your town is built in a desert like most towns are. So people running around naked is the norm when it should be an exception. Clothing allows for more variation in people's appearances, which not only looks better but also makes it easier to find specific people. And having a bigger and more important clothing industry would create more niches for doing stuff other than farming and preparing food. Additionally, clothing industry can tie in with the recent mechanization updates very nicely. Mechanical looms were leading the charge in the industrial revolution, after all.

So yeah, in general clothing should be easier to make, ie require less resources than fur and wool sets. Those two can still remain top tier stuff because they're pretty damn expensive, but other stuff should still be useful. And speaking of usefulness, clothing should generally be better. Full fur/wool set should get you to perfect temp in grassland. And some clothing should actually cool you, IRL you'd definitely rather be wearing loose linen than be naked in a desert. I'm thinking of the temp effect of clothing as abstraction for general protection from the elements. Maybe we could even have some clothing that always pushes you towards the center temp, ie both heats and cools depending on which is needed, but doesn't do as good at either as a specialized piece that only pushes in one direction. And speaking of pushing temp, the whole insulation model might be a bit too convoluted to easily add and balance clothing. I think it might be better if instead your base temp was calculated as if you were naked and clothing than applied a flat bonus on top of that.

startafight · 2019-01-02 01:07:07

have u tried wearing the turkey yet

lol jk i agree tho clothes r rly only good for travelling outside of the camp. should be able to create clothes that give protection too

MultiLife · 2019-01-02 01:13:51

Yeah, the temperature and clothing thing feels really finicky, and clothing can become a death trap with the Yellow fever. And nobody likes to undress; we just lose our clothes to others that way.

I'd like it if clothing would always shift the temperature towards the center temperature. Sure overheating should be a thing (even a cause of death when dying to that, or hypothermia), but it's really brutal right now and coming to a desert town from iron runs threatens to kill me. Would it be crazy if overheating and freezing wouldn't make you starve, but knock you unconscious and then kill you? I'm still into the whole 'starving mode' instead of instantly dropping down as bone piles so we could differentiate these conditions for starters to make clothes less of a trap and more of a mean of insulation.

It's pretty odd we get one tiny ball of thread from one whole adult sheep. This here says you could get even 5 sweaters from one sheep:
http://bedtimemath.org/fun-math-sheep-and-sweaters/
Buff fleece? Or make the knitting similar to smithing, hit a ball of yarn few times with knitting needles to toggle through wool clothing?
Here I'd like the addition of "breed sheep to make ultimate sheep" deal which I suggested to crops and milkweed (feeding/fertilizing and selective breeding/farming makes the most producing animals/crops). Cities would eventually breed the best sheep and feed them the best sheep food and they'd give us loads of wool cloth (which could decay faster than they do now, unless dyed).

Heyy can we get flowercrowns from dethorned roses? Please? They can decay in an hour or half. One bush makes enough for one crown when dethorned with a flint chip? Then water the rose bush like normal and wait for the next batch.

It's pretty funny to filter newbies with clothing. They are always worrying about getting clothes as they stand next to a berry farm in a desert. If it's your junk or lumps you are worried about showing, how about a leaf to slap on?

But yes so how about more resources with clothing and quicker decay? I wouldn't mind crafting clothes more often if resources were more plentiful.
Same with smithing, I'd rather have loads of ore to process and short lifespans for tools than have little to no ore and complete RNG shenanigans of tool lifespans.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-01-02 01:49:44)

karltown_veteran · 2019-01-02 01:53:20

Snakeskin boots are "snake stompin" boots? Protect from snake bites?

antking:]# · 2019-01-02 03:07:10

we could grow cotton, a plant that produces a lot of fluffy fiber quickly, and while you need to turn it into thread, we now have machines! which can turn the cotton balls into, shirts, pants and socks. With the cotton fluff, we can make jackets for most are stuffed with fluff. their can also be different variants of shirts made of cotton, you first make a sleeveless shirt, for the dessert, then a short sleeve shirt for both field and grass lands. then a long shirt for dead land. and the cotton jacket for the snow biome! as cotton is a plant we can grow a lot of it at once, and don't have to go out of our way to hunt, animals for their pelts! same goes with pants, short and long, for different temperatures

You have to remember that you color the thread not the shirt when dealing with cotton, so you can very colorful shirts! for example you have a short sleeve shirt, with a base of red and have have sleeves of blue
or a long sleeve shirt with a base of red a stripe of blue and then white making up the sleeves!
or a short pants half blue and half red!

With cotton we solve the problem of no one wearing cloths in desserts because of the light shirts, and short pants and because of the easy to grow crop and factories we can mass produce shirts, pants, and socks! they will decay of course but that shouldn't be a problem as how many we could produce!

betame · 2019-01-02 04:01:29

Very agreed.

While the tempCalc is sophisticated (in that it takes into account the shape of the environment/fires/walls),

it treats the heat from the biome/sunshine as if it were our body heat. (e.g. standing on a fire is the same as having a fever; both are trapped by clothes)

My biggest disincentive for clothing in-game is Yellow Fever's clothing-conditional lethality.

irl, computer modeling of heat transfer is common/well-studied. But for a simple game's code, a flat bonus from clothes would be a perfectly adequate solution -- closer to reality than the current implementation.

Last edited by betame (2019-01-02 04:04:36)

lionon · 2019-01-02 05:21:39

MultiLife wrote:

clothing can become a death trap with the Yellow fever.

This!

And nobody likes to undress; we just lose our clothes to others that way.

And this.

I'd like it if clothing would always shift the temperature towards the center temperature.

Agreed.

Would it be crazy if overheating and freezing wouldn't make you starve, but knock you unconscious and then kill you?

Also agreed, the main issue is, sooo many people don't realize how heating affects hunger.. they put babies in the fire, because they seen others do it, but thats it, they even put them in fire in desert towns for example.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-01-02 06:35:55

I never realized how big an issue yellow fever with clothing actually is. If I am clothed that means we are not short term banana based people so there is no reason to go. Unless I have to get rubber I avoid jungle like the plague.

Protective clothing would be cool. Imagine armor like chain mail that is knife proof.

I really like the idea of cotton as well.

I have also wondered why there isn't leather from cows.. Like a nice leather greaser jacket. I could actually make an intimidating gang by complete accident again.

The first were the angry boot boys.

SovietBear · 2019-01-02 07:42:14

100% agree.
I have not played the game for like 8 months, just returned, so I am not sure if numbers have changed. At the time rabbit clothes were the best (with snake boots being the same as rabbit ones) and this is weird, because these are the easiest ones to obtain.
I think there should be a tier list of clothes based on technology level. Like tier_1 providing +10..-10 based on environment, tier_2 +15..-15, etc.
I understand that Jason is trying to make the game realistic, well, then we can make two separate groups of clothes - light and warm ones with tier lists implemented inside of these groups. E.g. first groups will provide -10, -15, -20 and the second one +10, +15, +20, etc.

Overall, players should be encouraged to get higher tech stuff in order to make their lives easier, isn't that what progress is all about? It's not just about clothes ofc, it's just the most obvious thing to fix.

Baker · 2019-01-02 09:10:02

I really hope for some more modern looking clothes in the future. It doesn't just have to be temp improvements, Bigger packs and pockets would be nice too. We should be able to strip down when we have yellow fever, Exactly how babies can.

Booklat1 · 2019-01-02 09:24:28

Clothing should probaby have an insulation factor both for cold and for heat, making some options good in cold biomes and others good in hot ones.

Spiegel · 2019-01-02 12:49:43

I demand Shakespearean-style clothing! DEMAND it!

GreatShawn · 2019-01-02 19:46:09

SovietBear wrote:

100% agree.
I have not played the game for like 8 months, just returned, so I am not sure if numbers have changed. At the time rabbit clothes were the best (with snake boots being the same as rabbit ones) and this is weird, because these are the easiest ones to obtain.
I think there should be a tier list of clothes based on technology level. Like tier_1 providing +10..-10 based on environment, tier_2 +15..-15, etc.
I understand that Jason is trying to make the game realistic, well, then we can make two separate groups of clothes - light and warm ones with tier lists implemented inside of these groups. E.g. first groups will provide -10, -15, -20 and the second one +10, +15, +20, etc.
Overall, players should be encouraged to get higher tech stuff in order to make their lives easier, isn't that what progress is all about? It's not just about clothes ofc, it's just the most obvious thing to fix.

OMG A COMMUNIST

Glassius · 2019-01-03 00:26:09

MultiLife wrote:

It's pretty odd we get one tiny ball of thread from one whole adult sheep. This here says you could get even 5 sweaters from one sheep:
http://bedtimemath.org/fun-math-sheep-and-sweaters/

I was thinking about the same, that in real life one sheep gives you enough fleese for few sweaters, but in this game you need 6 sheeps. According to measurements in this post, full wool set in green biome makes your hanger pip decrease around every 7.7 sec. Naked is 4.8 sec. It saves your 282,47 calories lifetime. Of course, considering you are not put on perfect temp spot at birth and you spend entire life in chilling biomes.

But to get one fleece, you have to feed 6 gooseberries and carrot to lamb, which is 37 calories. It is 518 calories for wool set from 14 sheeps. Crafting wool set makes you waste 235,53 calories lifetime! You are buying 282,47 calories for 518.

There are two things whish saves this formula. Mutton pies and dung production. 14 sheeps * 4 muttons to make 56 cooked muttons for 12 calories each: 672 calories. From the whole sheep farming idea you got a surplus of 436,47 calories, considering the wool set insulation reduction and raw food for sheep diference. And 14 dungs, nice. But still, I think the amount of sheeps to craft clothes is extremely high in OHOL

CrazyEddie · 2019-01-03 01:02:24

Poop is essential, and therefore fleece is free.

MultiLife · 2019-01-03 01:12:53

Glassius wrote:

I was thinking about the same, that in real life one sheep gives you enough fleese for few sweaters, but in this game you need 6 sheeps. According to measurements in this post, full wool set in green biome makes your hanger pip decrease around every 7.7 sec. Naked is 4.8 sec. It saves your 282,47 calories lifetime. Of course, considering you are not put on perfect temp spot at birth and you spend entire life in chilling biomes.
But to get one fleece, you have to feed 6 gooseberries and carrot to lamb, which is 37 calories. It is 518 calories for wool set from 14 sheeps. Crafting wool set makes you waste 235,53 calories lifetime! You are buying 282,47 calories for 518.
There are two things whish saves this formula. Mutton pies and dung production. 14 sheeps * 4 muttons to make 56 cooked muttons for 12 calories each: 672 calories. From the whole sheep farming idea you got a surplus of 436,47 calories, considering the wool set insulation reduction and raw food for sheep diference. And 14 dungs, nice. But still, I think the amount of sheeps to craft clothes is extremely high in OHOL

Interesting with the calorie exchange. One can only wonder why wool clothing is so bad at insulation... If I was in a green forest with a wool clothing set on I'd be melting. And yeah, clothing is really expensive, and with wool clothing, you are using up a resource which could go to medical equipment, backpacks and other clothing (needle&thread).

Yep, at least the compost cycle gives out good stuff so it's not just wool we get. There is a lot I'd change with sheep for sure..
Like, one sheep fleece makes one pad, whaat! This should be changed. Fleece+shear=cut fleece+spindle=bunch of small balls of thread+simmering water=bowl of pads (full set). Bunch of small balls of thread could be separated and made one by one if preferred - maybe used partly for pads and partly for needles.

If fleece would be a bigger resource and wool cloth could be less expensive to make and balanced to decay more (unless dyed) we would have much more of wool clothing crafting and much less naked crotches (wait, where's the wool pants!!). It'd also help if medical things weren't rivaling the wool clothing like they do now - backpack/hat/boots thread need is already interfering with wool clothing.

Warumono · 2019-01-03 08:03:52

Omigosh yes, a full fur set should definitely keep you way warmer than it does.

I think that the snow and mountain biomes should be cold, the grass and plains mid temp, and desert and rain forest hot.

... also if I could wear a leaf I'd be seriously excited.

Last edited by Warumono (2019-01-03 08:05:09)

Tarr · 2019-01-03 09:24:58

Warumono wrote:

Omigosh yes, a full fur set should definitely keep you way warmer than it does.
I think that the snow and mountain biomes should be cold, the grass and plains mid temp, and desert and rain forest hot.
... also if I could wear a leaf I'd be seriously excited.

Rabbit fur is BiS for both shoes and pants while every bit of it is completely renewable vs having to jump through hoops to have renewable wolf hats and sealskin coats not being renewable at all. Fur is also the only material backpacks can be made from so that's the biggest thing going for it. The actual issue in game isn't that clothes don't keep you warm enough it's that if you need clothes in the first place you are living in the wrong area.

JonySky · 2019-01-03 11:58:36

The latest updates (cars and apocalypse) in my opinion, have not been successful they are updates that we do not currently need ...

We need more clothes, and more mechanics to use the clothes (storms, sudden change of temperature, protection to the heat, care of the temperature of the babies ... etc ...)

We also need more materials to create different types of clothes (silk, polyester, lycra, cotton ...)
a vehicle right now is an useless article, instead a loom to create different types of clothes I see it necessary

I think these latest updates give the feeling that the game has lost the direction of the industrial revolution and we have skipped several stages of the evolution.

there are many old machines that can be created at this moment of the game, I have always defended the possibility of creating caravans like in the old west, before than creating a car for just one person ...

In the city where I live (Sabadell, Catalunya (Spain)) the great industrial revolution came from the industry of silk and fabric, there were large industrial buildings with steam looms that generated great wealth in the city
In many European cities the same thing happened, the beginning of the industrial revolution began from the fabric, the trade and the need to industrialize everyday products such as clothing, with that came the variety of industrialized products

I would like the game to follow a logical line in industrialization ... there is already a lot of disorder within cities, so that we also mess up the evolutionary lines.

Last edited by JonySky (2019-01-03 12:15:39)

Tarr · 2019-01-03 13:20:01

JonySky wrote:

The latest updates (cars and apocalypse) in my opinion, have not been successful they are updates that we do not currently need ...
We need more clothes, and more mechanics to use the clothes (storms, sudden change of temperature, protection to the heat, care of the temperature of the babies ... etc ...)
We also need more materials to create different types of clothes (silk, polyester, lycra, cotton ...)
a vehicle right now is an useless article, instead a loom to create different types of clothes I see it necessary
I think these latest updates give the feeling that the game has lost the direction of the industrial revolution and we have skipped several stages of the evolution.
there are many old machines that can be created at this moment of the game, I have always defended the possibility of creating caravans like in the old west, before than creating a car for just one person ...
In the city where I live (Sabadell, Catalunya (Spain)) the great industrial revolution came from the industry of silk and fabric, there were large industrial buildings with steam looms that generated great wealth in the city
In many European cities the same thing happened, the beginning of the industrial revolution began from the fabric, the trade and the need to industrialize everyday products such as clothing, with that came the variety of industrialized products
I would like the game to follow a logical line in industrialization ... there is already a lot of disorder within cities, so that we also mess up the evolutionary lines.

There's all sorts of things you have to remember: Jason is a one person team so getting stuff like complete reworks of code just to add in random things like storms is going to take away from his time adding other things or fixing stuff he broke. Jason almost always has a back catalog of bugs he needs to fix because he either he half fixed something - Cows aren't forever dry but also now go completely unusable if left to run out of uses or it's just something he missed - Anyone who has played the game forever can remember all the different animals giving out invisible wounds. The last thing I could ever want is wrong biome tornadoes or something equally as goofy.

The problem with just adding in more clothing is it either has to be better in some sense to the clothing we already have in the game at the moment. The only extra niche clothing areas are something that makes you way too hot in normal biomes (essentially winter clothing for the arctic biome) or something to cool you off in the desert. What would the rest of the new clothing options do?

Longer lasting is probably not worth adding in advanced clothes ever since he fixed rabbits coming back to their abandoned holes after an extended time.Warmer wouldn't be much help because most of the time you having clothing on means where you live is a bad area to live in the first place anyways.Basically he'd have to add clothing that is RP related, so niche that it only fits in one spot, or have it used for a specific thing (beekeeper outfit)

Related to the car thing vs wagon is just him not having code in place for two people to hold one item. A funny example is something like when toddlers could get on horses you could pick them up and while holding them they just didn't have legs. Basically since he doesn't have the stuff in place for two people to bound but not held we can't have baby slings, covered wagons/multiple person vehicles, or babies in carts etc.

JonySky · 2019-01-03 14:59:04

There's all sorts of things you have to remember: Jason is a one person team so getting stuff like complete reworks of code just to add in random things like storms is going to take away from his time adding other things or fixing stuff he broke. Jason almost always has a back catalog of bugs he needs to fix because he either he half fixed something - Cows aren't forever dry but also now go completely unusable if left to run out of uses or it's just something he missed - Anyone who has played the game forever can remember all the different animals giving out invisible wounds. The last thing I could ever want is wrong biome tornadoes or something equally as goofy.
The problem with just adding in more clothing is it either has to be better in some sense to the clothing we already have in the game at the moment. The only extra niche clothing areas are something that makes you way too hot in normal biomes (essentially winter clothing for the arctic biome) or something to cool you off in the desert. What would the rest of the new clothing options do?
Longer lasting is probably not worth adding in advanced clothes ever since he fixed rabbits coming back to their abandoned holes after an extended time.Warmer wouldn't be much help because most of the time you having clothing on means where you live is a bad area to live in the first place anyways.Basically he'd have to add clothing that is RP related, so niche that it only fits in one spot, or have it used for a specific thing (beekeeper outfit)
Related to the car thing vs wagon is just him not having code in place for two people to hold one item. A funny example is something like when toddlers could get on horses you could pick them up and while holding them they just didn't have legs. Basically since he doesn't have the stuff in place for two people to bound but not held we can't have baby slings, covered wagons/multiple person vehicles, or babies in carts etc.

do not misunderstand me, I'm not criticizing Jason's work or the game (sorry if it seemed like a critic, but my English is not very good)
On the contrary ... this game seems to me one of the best investments in games I've made for a long time

I am aware that the programming work is not easy, and when I talk about incorporating storms in the game, I was an example

I have referred to create different needs to use different types of clothes ...
I'll try to set a clearer example: see how the Tuareg dress to fight the heat, or look at an Amazon explorer ... or an Eskimo ...
Each situation, in each biome has a different dress

These biomes are already incorporated in the game, but currently there is no diversity in the most appropriate clothing for each biome ...

implementing steam looms provide the technology to evolve with clothing (even if only a visual implementation without any specific purpose)
But I think there should be clothing with the property to cool, or to heat much more for cooler temperatures

Apart from all this I have also talked about a baby's clothes ...
I am the father of 2 girls, and I know that when a baby has just been born, it is very important to maintain a stable body temperature
at birth human beings can not maintain body temperature correctly ... why not create pieces of clothing for this use?
Why create an apocalypse when we can make it more difficult to take care of a baby so that cities do not develop so fast?
I repeat that I am not criticizing the work of Jason, but the apocalypse is a very easy solution to a problem that we can correct without extinguishing the whole server

I'm sure that a steam loom will be used much more than a one-person vehicle

Let's be honest ... how many Railroads, dogs, vehicles, letters, dice, paint on the walls ... are we seeing in our big cities?
I do not want to implement technologies or mechanics that in the future, maybe they will serve a lot ... but now they fall into oblivion because nobody needs them or uses them ...

and to finish, just tell you that lately, when I was born in a city located in a desert or jungle (which are the vast majority) with many sponges or noobs that do nothing but stay in a bush of berries and eat all the time. ..
What I do is collect or create all kinds of rabbit or seal clothing to offer to these sponges ... when they are dressed to the teeth, they do not usually spend more than 10 minutes until they die of hunger due to overheating ...

I say this ... because this causes the majority of players to end up always naked in a society with cars ... even in Africa or in the Amazon, people go with clothing

Last edited by JonySky (2019-01-03 16:46:45)

immas123 · 2019-01-15 00:58:30

I think that a simple solution to this would be using balls of thread to weave cloth on a loom. Historically people who lived in farms often spun, wove, and sewed their own clothes which were called “homespun”. It is relatively simple to make a crude loom using only sticks and thread, so in game it could be done similarly. One a bolt of cloth has been made it could be stacked to make things like fur or cut with shears to cycle through the options like smithing before ultimately sewing it together.
This could be used to make everything from pants to a feather stuffed winter coat. And they could be dyed!

Last edited by immas123 (2019-01-15 01:02:17)

Booklat1 · 2019-01-15 05:38:35

But Tarr, we will need Jason to at some point rework parts of his game from the core. Honestly, clothing is fine compared to how unrealistic it is to maak buildings in this game. Those are two tetch tree branches badly explored because at the current time they are not optimally designed.

I don't see hope for more technological advancement in this game if we don't get more mechanics right from the start, but most importantly, a rework on some main features. Like Jonysky said, how many rails, cows, paint we see? cows re bugged, but paint and rails could definitely have an use if buildings and automated transport were things we really needed.

I really don't know if hard reworks or soft ajustments are better to fix the problem of having things we don't need, but I always think having more needs is better than having more options (in a game).

disoculated · 2019-01-15 07:00:48

Textiles often get forgotten in the history of technology, but the only thing more essential to civilization is pottery. You can look as the civilizations that spawned in the far east and see that they were able to get extremely far with extremely high population densities with minimal ironworking but very advanced ceramics and textiles. What we need here is a vegetable-based cloth like cotton or hemp that can be used to make everything from windmill blades (to drive all this machinery instead of combustion) to clothing to better carrying bags, hot weather shelters, real rope, and on and on. Ignoring textiles while adding internal combustion has made this world really weird, and make me (and a good number others) upset when we're in a town and see people building cars and radios while the farms get demolished by cold and naked noobs who don't understand why they can't go ten steps away without hearing the starving bell.

mrslax · 2019-01-16 20:23:10

Cotten t-shirt and jeans would be nice. make them whatever color. that would be good.

All the clothes are winter and death traps with the mosquitoes.

Being able to make more kinds of backpacks form other hides would also be nice. (Cows and pigs are a complete mess no steaks/ribs, leather, shit)

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