Pip Efficiency Pt.2

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-17 04:05:04

Got alot of info from the previous post so i thought id try to add and reorganize my thoughts on it in a separate one

So what ive learned so far is:

.Most people Start eating when they have about 2-4 pips left

.The less pips per bite a food has, the less pips it could potentially waste, however that does NOT mean you should completely disregard high pip foods

.A high pip value is not always 100% a wasteful thing, because most people eat between 2-4 pips a food that can give 18-16 pips would be ideal

.Foods that advertise to give 20 pips can only give 19 at most because the player can only have 20 pips in their pip meter max making them always waste at least one pip

. Alot more factors then just the pip efficiency affect the validity of any given food, however pip efficiency still has a substantial role in this

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Back to just pip efficiency, like i said before most people eat at 2-4 pips left so foods that give 18,17, and 16 are optimal. This also works if the food is a multiplier of 18 or 16, not 17 since halve pips dont exist. Here are some of the following foods that meet these catagories:

.Popcorn (3x4 pips):This is the lowest pip food in the game making it the hardest to waste, its also fairly cheap and easy to make,
.Cooked Rabbit,Berry Pie (18x4 pips): The best kind of pie to make if you wanna be efficient about it, most people dont eat at one pip so this pie is in the Goldilocks zone
.Cooked Rabbit,Carrot Pie(18x4 pips): Same idea as the food above...
.Sliced Bread (8 pips): Just as good, if not better then popcorn, with each wheat plant producing a 64 pip bread and the corn only 48 pips of popcorn
.Sauerkraut (6 pips): actually more efficient then sliced bread which makes up for its 4 pip loss when making the plant into sauerkraut, although it starts to become
less efficient if you dont have saltwater sources or kraut making tools nearby.

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Now these are still good foods but arent multipliers of 18 or 16 and are very likely to waste 1 or two pips because of the value of the foods themselves:

.Turkey Slice, Drumsticks (19 pips): this one is still pretty good, the only thing really holding it back is how players never eat one pip remaining making its last pip a waste
.Burrito (19 pips) : Same issue that turkey has except its actually harder to make this then it is to just go out and hunt a turkey
.Eggs (19 pips): This is actually one of the better foods in this catagory, mainly because its just so easy to go out and find a egg that wasting a pip or two doesn't matter much
.Whole Milk (14 pips): Considering how much of this you can make in such a short time, it may be wasteful, but its sheer volume pretty much counteracts that
.Carrots (7 pips): Less efficient then gooseberries but able to produce more overall in one soil till. However these are used to make other things so eating them are somewhat taboo
.Gooseberries (5 pips): These are petty common and the pip value on them is pretty small making them for a reliable and quick food, however they have alot of other uses so eating them in certain scenarios is taboo

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These foods are the ones that are kinda in the middle, not bad but not great either:

.Turkey broth (12 pips): This one isnt really that bad considering its a freebie for having a turkey
.Cooked Mutton (12 pips): This comes as a byproduct to the compost cycle so again not that bad
.Stew (14x2): Pip efficiency is kinda bad and it requires alot of ingredients to make
.Berry Carrot Rabbit Pie (20x4 pips): Pie can only actually refill 19 pips at most and most people dont eat food at one pip so it wastes another
.Cooked fish (20 pips): Same problem with the pie above...
.Berry Pie, Rabbit Pie, Carrot Pie (12,14,7x4 pips): Some of these pies are wasteful not just in pips because of their multipliers, but in resources as well
.Greenbeans (4x6): While green beans do have a good pip efficiency, the work that goes into creating them overacts that if you are just eating them as is

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Now THESE are the ones you wouldn't normally see in your village, and for good reason, most of them have bad pip efficiency, require too much effort to get the amount they give, and just overall have other better options for food that makes these obsolete unless you are going for yum bonus.

. Mango Slices (9x2 pips): Pip efficiency is actually pretty good, its just the fact that it takes forever to grow mango trees and the use of a plate for just 18 pips that puts it here
. Bean Taco (12 pips): Again not bad, but it takes forever to make the corn tortillas
. Shuck of Corn (5 pips): not bad pip efficiency, its just that popcorn gives alot more pips and is ironically more pip efficient making this sort of a ingredient then a actual food
. Pork Taco (17 pips): Same deal with bean tacos except you need pork which is hard to reliably find in alot of villages
. Skim Milk (8 pips): Pip efficiency is good but to make this you will be losing the pips from whole milk to make butter which doesnt actually equal the same amount of pips you started with whole milk
.Buttered Bread (12 pips): The pip efficiency is meh but it has the same problem with skim milk, which is that you are losing more pips then you are getting by making this
.Potatoe (6 pips): Requires the use of a shovel, enough said...

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-17 06:22:49)

antking:]# · 2019-01-17 05:42:50

pip vs pig?

Gederian · 2019-01-17 06:13:45

Crumpaloo wrote:

8x8 = 64 pips for bread 12 pips for cooked mutton 64 + 12 = 76 pips Meanwhile a muttion pie is 4x15 = 60 pips in total for a mutton pie. Thats 16 pips being lost making a mutton pie, and thats not including the chance of a new player coming across and eating it to refill 2 pips of his pip meter. But before you get up in arms about "oh well its more convenient for traveling" or "it takes more time to make bread and mutton then a pie". First off, if you wanna go off mining or hunting just prepare your own pies in advance, and secondly, besides the downtime of the dough turning into bread its the same rates, hell you could even be getting more mutton while thats happening if you really want be stingy about it.

Looks like you're calculating that dough makes one pie instead of four.

To be fully equal:

1 bread = 64
4 mutton = 48

112 total for bread & mutton

But four mutton pies from the same ingredients:
4x15 = 60 * 4 = 240

So pie is much better than bread and cooked mutton!

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-17 06:21:37

Gederian wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
8x8 = 64 pips for bread 12 pips for cooked mutton 64 + 12 = 76 pips Meanwhile a muttion pie is 4x15 = 60 pips in total for a mutton pie. Thats 16 pips being lost making a mutton pie, and thats not including the chance of a new player coming across and eating it to refill 2 pips of his pip meter. But before you get up in arms about "oh well its more convenient for traveling" or "it takes more time to make bread and mutton then a pie". First off, if you wanna go off mining or hunting just prepare your own pies in advance, and secondly, besides the downtime of the dough turning into bread its the same rates, hell you could even be getting more mutton while thats happening if you really want be stingy about it.

Looks like you're calculating that dough makes one pie instead of four.
To be fully equal:
1 bread = 64
4 mutton = 48
112 total for bread & mutton
But four mutton pies from the same ingredients:
4x15 = 60 * 4 = 240
So pie is much better than bread and cooked mutton!

Not even gonna argue that point, just wasnt thinking about it, the post is still valid, that part was just a brain fart. ALTHOUGH i will argue that both mutton and bread slices are more pip efficient then the pies themselves. Mainly if you were to have 240 pips worth of pies compared to 240 pips worth of bread, the bread would have much more of a impact then the pies as its harder to waste them.

The main thing that bugs me is that i dont know where the thresh-hold for pip efficeincy goes off, i mean of course smaller items are more pip efficeint then larger ones, but how many smaller foods would you need to add until the amount of average waste the larger food wastes equals out to the average pip value of the a bunch of the smaller foods? difficult stuff...

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-17 06:28:54)

Gederian · 2019-01-17 06:22:59

I also want to point out that berry is not the same as berry in bowl so yum bonus that up!

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-17 06:30:34

Gederian wrote:

I also want to point out that berry is not the same as berry in bowl so yum bonus that up!

This is mainly just a post about saving pips but might make a post about yum bonus laters. Id say start with small foods then work your way to bigger ones right? Or maybe eat the harder to make foods then go down to the easier stuff...

pein · 2019-01-17 12:21:37

2 boxes of pie, is a looot
while idiot bakers tend to steal all the plates, all the baskets, all the ropes, all the carts and all the boards, they never ever gather clay or make new plates
then someone realizes it and then makes plates and they take all of that too

its fine to make some bread to keep up with straw hats and basket making
easily put: 1 hat 1 bread, 1 basket 2 bread, 1 apron- well that only creates delay on compost so no need for bread

yes its ok to cook mutton raw
yes its ok to feed shorn sheep when you got a pen 75% full of dung

if stuff is already there, then it's a waste not to use it

for berries would make sense to pick all off the bush, soil and water again
you can still eat directly out of bowl or taking one out
ideal job for kids and saves time for shepherd
and skips out on the waiting time
so yeah, make a damn bowl for each bush

nurseries are not a bad idea, make stew, sauerkraut and popcorn there, saves on food and gives yum
some green beans, cooked rabbit and goose
this also makes possible to hoard all foods same place to give yum
wild food and the niche stuff can go there

after making the newcommen well, you can plant 7 mango trees, that uses up one pile of compost and 7 buckets of water each time is restarting
as i had my cow pen experiment, 9 walls can hold a cow, maybe i gonna do it with 5 mango trees, one cistern and 3 locked chests with buckets, needs 2 lifes to get back, and needs to be planted before 28 ish and live to old age to make sure it will grow

rabbit to me is just wasted space if its too many, we better off with using up mutton

DestinyCall · 2019-01-17 17:18:01

Crumpaloo wrote:

Gederian wrote:
Crumpaloo wrote:
8x8 = 64 pips for bread 12 pips for cooked mutton 64 + 12 = 76 pips Meanwhile a muttion pie is 4x15 = 60 pips in total for a mutton pie. Thats 16 pips being lost making a mutton pie, and thats not including the chance of a new player coming across and eating it to refill 2 pips of his pip meter. But before you get up in arms about "oh well its more convenient for traveling" or "it takes more time to make bread and mutton then a pie". First off, if you wanna go off mining or hunting just prepare your own pies in advance, and secondly, besides the downtime of the dough turning into bread its the same rates, hell you could even be getting more mutton while thats happening if you really want be stingy about it.

Looks like you're calculating that dough makes one pie instead of four.
To be fully equal:
1 bread = 64
4 mutton = 48
112 total for bread & mutton
But four mutton pies from the same ingredients:
4x15 = 60 * 4 = 240
So pie is much better than bread and cooked mutton!
Not even gonna argue that point, just wasnt thinking about it, the post is still valid, that part was just a brain fart. ALTHOUGH i will argue that both mutton and bread slices are more pip efficient then the pies themselves. Mainly if you were to have 240 pips worth of pies compared to 240 pips worth of bread, the bread would have much more of a impact then the pies as its harder to waste them.
The main thing that bugs me is that i dont know where the thresh-hold for pip efficeincy goes off, i mean of course smaller items are more pip efficeint then larger ones, but how many smaller foods would you need to add until the amount of average waste the larger food wastes equals out to the average pip value of the a bunch of the smaller foods? difficult stuff...

Actually, it isn't that difficult to figure out. Just look at the numbers Gederian gave you. If you make four mutton and one wheat into bread and cooked mutton you get 112 pips of food. If you make the same ingredients into mutton pies, you get 240 pips of food. That is a net gain of 128 pips. So you would need to waste OVER half the pips from the mutton pies before the higher "pip efficiency" of cooked mutton/bread might start to save pips. This is what people were trying to tell you in the other thread when they were talking about how higher total pip value is more important that potential waste. There is a harsh opportunity cost associated with roasting mutton and baking bread. You are IMMEDIATELY wasting 128 pips by choosing to make these supposedly "pip efficient" foods, instead of using the base ingredients to make the higher pip value food (mutton pie). You can't get those pips back, because they are just gone. And wasteful people can still waste even more pips when eating bread or cooked mutton if they choose to eat when they are nearly full.

Therefore, mutton pies are more pip efficient and should be made first. Bread and cooked mutton should only be made in times of excess, when plates are in low supply, or when your village is firmly established and looking to add extra yum options. If you are worried about survival, mutton pies provide more pips. A LOT MORE PIPS. So even after significant waste, they are as good or better than lower pip value alternatives and will help your village survive longer and remain well fed for twice as long for an equal amount of work and ingredient cost.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-01-17 17:19:10)

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-17 19:26:44

DestinyCall wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
Gederian wrote:

Looks like you're calculating that dough makes one pie instead of four.
To be fully equal:
1 bread = 64
4 mutton = 48
112 total for bread & mutton
But four mutton pies from the same ingredients:
4x15 = 60 * 4 = 240
So pie is much better than bread and cooked mutton!
Not even gonna argue that point, just wasnt thinking about it, the post is still valid, that part was just a brain fart. ALTHOUGH i will argue that both mutton and bread slices are more pip efficient then the pies themselves. Mainly if you were to have 240 pips worth of pies compared to 240 pips worth of bread, the bread would have much more of a impact then the pies as its harder to waste them.
The main thing that bugs me is that i dont know where the thresh-hold for pip efficeincy goes off, i mean of course smaller items are more pip efficeint then larger ones, but how many smaller foods would you need to add until the amount of average waste the larger food wastes equals out to the average pip value of the a bunch of the smaller foods? difficult stuff...
Actually, it isn't that difficult to figure out. Just look at the numbers Gederian gave you. If you make four mutton and one wheat into bread and cooked mutton you get 112 pips of food. If you make the same ingredients into mutton pies, you get 240 pips of food. That is a net gain of 128 pips. So you would need to waste OVER half the pips from the mutton pies before the higher "pip efficiency" of cooked mutton/bread might start to save pips. This is what people were trying to tell you in the other thread when they were talking about how higher total pip value is more important that potential waste. There is a harsh opportunity cost associated with roasting mutton and baking bread. You are IMMEDIATELY wasting 128 pips by choosing to make these supposedly "pip efficient" foods, instead of using the base ingredients to make the higher pip value food (mutton pie). You can't get those pips back, because they are just gone. And wasteful people can still waste even more pips when eating bread or cooked mutton if they choose to eat when they are nearly full.
Therefore, mutton pies are more pip efficient and should be made first. Bread and cooked mutton should only be made in times of excess, when plates are in low supply, or when your village is firmly established and looking to add extra yum options. If you are worried about survival, mutton pies provide more pips. A LOT MORE PIPS. So even after significant waste, they are as good or better than lower pip value alternatives and will help your village survive longer and remain well fed for twice as long for an equal amount of work and ingredient cost.

Mk i think i should explain a bit more then:

Pip value (atleast to me): The max amount of pips you could potentially get from one bite or use of a food

Pip efficiency: The likelihood of said food being wasted because of its pip value, basically the lower pip value a food has, the more pip efficient it is, This is because the less pips there are in a pip value, the less likely someone is to over-eat.

Also i already had admitted that it was a brain fart so im not y u bringing that up but alright then.

DestinyCall · 2019-01-17 19:55:53

I'm not worried about the bad math in your first post. I do understand what you mean when you say "pip efficiency". My point is that the value you are placing on it is too high. Also, you call it "pip efficiency" but I don't think that is the correct term. What you are really talking about it potential for waste. Looking at my examples from your previous thread, a single use of green beans can give you up to 3 pips and a single use of turkey broth can give up to 12 pips. If you eat either food when you almost full, you will get a minimum of one pip. The rest of the food's pip potential is wasted, because you only had room for one pip. So turkey broth has a higher potential for pip wastage, because it is more "pip dense" and a bowl of green beans has a lower potential for waste because it is less pip dense. To use your term, foods with fewer pips per use have a higher "pip efficiency" since over-eating will waste less total pips. I get all that and I agree with your assessment, regarding food waste.

However, that does not change the fact that there are high pip density foods in the game that out-perform low pip density foods. Roasted Mutton and bread are not a better option than mutton pies. They are not more efficient in terms of providing the most usable pips for the least amount of effort and resources. Foods like pies and whole milk provide so much more pips that, even if some of them get wasted, you are still going to make out better than if you put in the same amount of effort to produce only low pip density foods.

And for your adult population, it is much more time efficient to take a single bite of pie and go right back to work versus standing around eating one and a half bowls of green beans or saurkraut to max their bar. The village needs low pip density foods for kids and elderly, since their food bars max out much lower than an adult. And they should be taught to eat berries or popcorn or green beans or bread until they are older/younger again. But the adult population should be taught to switch to the higher pip density foods when they are old enough, because they are the only ones that get the full benefit of a mutton pie. Both types of foods should be present in good amounts in a healthy village. Overeating and eating high density foods during the wrong life stage should be discouraged.

"Pip efficiency" is not the most important factor in deciding the most efficient food. You need to expand your focus.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-01-17 19:58:06)

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-17 20:21:45

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm not worried about the bad math in your first post. I do understand what you mean when you say "pip efficiency". My point is that the value you are placing on it is too high. Also, you call it "pip efficiency" but I don't think that is the correct term. What you are really talking about it potential for waste. Looking at my examples from your previous thread, a single use of green beans can give you up to 3 pips and a single use of turkey broth can give up to 12 pips. If you eat either food when you almost full, you will get a minimum of one pip. The rest of the food's pip potential is wasted, because you only had room for one pip. So turkey broth has a higher potential for pip wastage, because it is more "pip dense" and a bowl of green beans has a lower potential for waste because it is less pip dense. To use your term, foods with fewer pips per use have a higher "pip efficiency" since over-eating will waste less total pips. I get all that and I agree with your assessment, regarding food waste.
However, that does not change the fact that there are high pip density foods in the game that out-perform low pip density foods. Roasted Mutton and bread are not a better option than mutton pies. They are not more efficient in terms of providing the most usable pips for the least amount of effort and resources. Foods like pies and whole milk provide so much more pips that, even if some of them get wasted, you are still going to make out better than if you put in the same amount of effort to produce only low pip density foods.
And for your adult population, it is much more time efficient to take a single bite of pie and go right back to work versus standing around eating one and a half bowls of green beans or saurkraut to max their bar. The village needs low pip density foods for kids and elderly, since their food bars max out much lower than an adult. And they should be taught to eat berries or popcorn or green beans or bread until they are older/younger again. But the adult population should be taught to switch to the higher pip density foods when they are old enough, because they are the only ones that get the full benefit of a mutton pie. Both types of foods should be present in good amounts in a healthy village. Overeating and eating high density foods during the wrong life stage should be discouraged.
"Pip efficiency" is not the most important factor in deciding the most efficient food. You need to expand your focus.

Ok ive never claimed that the term was the end all be all in terms of the best choice of foods to eat, look back at the OP and you will see two pies as being some of the top best foods, this is because as ive said before, while pip efficiency does tell you how likely it is you will waste something, theres another mechanic at play, and that is how many pips a person has before they decide they should eat.

Most people eat at around 2-4 pips left on their pip meter, so foods that give around 18 or 16 pips or are a multiplier of 18 or 16 in terms of pips are actually just as functional as having a reallly low pip food, this is due to the amount of average pips a player has before they eat, so knowing that we can make foods that replenish the same amount of pips that the player would need at the average rate of pips they would already have when they were about to eat making for no waste at all. This can actually end up working better then pip efficiency theory because instead of assuming that most people will waste alot of their foods you can account for how many pips an average player would need when they on average start looking for food to eat.

Also im not coming to any solid conclusion on alot of this as im still learning and trying to account for outside factors like production speed, yum bonus, etc. so if i come to some realization that refutes something i just said ill be sure to go into depth on why that is.

betame · 2019-01-17 21:13:55

Adding to the mutton pie vs bread+mutton debate:

whenever you have 1 wheat and 4 mutton
you could create 16 bites of 15 food, or 8+4 bites of 8 & 12 food.

Because pies also have more bites,
there is no case where someone going to get food will waste more than the excess provided;

Someone timing their 12 bites to perfectly use the mutton and bread could have grabbed 12 bites from mutton pie and wasted those pips, but they'd still have a whole extra pie left over.

(there are still rare circumstances for bread+mutton when plates are too limited, or food needs to be quickly consumed to free tiles, or a food-secure village needs to outcompete for yum-births)

Last edited by betame (2019-01-17 21:15:28)

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-17 21:22:37

betame wrote:

Adding to the mutton pie vs bread+mutton debate:
whenever you have 1 wheat and 4 mutton
you could create 16 bites of 15 food, or 8+4 bites of 8 & 12 food.
Because pies also have more bites,
there is no case where someone going to get food will waste more than the excess provided;
Someone timing their 12 bites to perfectly use the mutton and bread could have grabbed 12 bites from mutton pie and wasted those pips, but they'd still have a whole extra pie left over.

(there are still rare circumstances for bread+mutton when plates are too limited, or food needs to be quickly consumed to free tiles, or a food-secure village needs to outcompete for yum-births)

Mate theres nothing to add i already admitted to me having a brain fart, even removed the part in the post where it talks about it lol.

DestinyCall · 2019-01-17 23:31:34

Excellent post, Betame. I didn't even think about the total bites available from 4 mutton pies (16) compared with 4 pieces of roast mutton and eight slices of bread (12) when I was doing my earlier comparison, but this makes the pies look even nicer. Even at maximum wastefulness, the mutton pies will be providing a net gain of 4 pips. You literally CAN'T improve the pip efficiency by making the lower value foods, because you end up with fewer total bites. I think this really drives home the importance of looking at total bites, not just pip density, if you are interested in comparing food for waste potential.

One thing I've noticed when analyzing pies ... berry pies are a terrible investment. They have a pretty high opportunity cost associated with making a bowl of berries into a berry pie. And the other pies that use berry are also pretty bad. I need to play with the numbers to be sure, but I don't think it is a good idea to bake berry pies, even if you have no meat. I'm on the fence about carrot pies, but at least they give you more than the carrots.

Meat piee are the way to go.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-01-17 23:32:52)

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-18 00:16:46

DestinyCall wrote:

Excellent post, Betame. I didn't even think about the total bites available from 4 mutton pies (16) compared with 4 pieces of roast mutton and eight slices of bread (12) when I was doing my earlier comparison, but this makes the pies look even nicer. Even at maximum wastefulness, the mutton pies will be providing a net gain of 4 pips. You literally CAN'T improve the pip efficiency by making the lower value foods, because you end up with fewer total bites. I think this really drives home the importance of looking at total bites, not just pip density, if you are interested in comparing food for waste potential.
One thing I've noticed when analyzing pies ... berry pies are a terrible investment. They have a pretty high opportunity cost associated with making a bowl of berries into a berry pie. And the other pies that use berry are also pretty bad. I need to play with the numbers to be sure, but I don't think it is a good idea to bake berry pies, even if you have no meat. I'm on the fence about carrot pies, but at least they give you more than the carrots.
Meat piee are the way to go.

Gotta disagree with the whole more bites the better theroy, other guy tried to argue that point and i just told him this. If you had one food with 1 pip, you could add as many uses to that food as you wanted, as long as the pip value of the food remains the same, the bites wont have any affect, this shows that bites/uses of a food are solely dependent of the pip value of the food itself, think of it like a multiplier, you can multiply any number by zero, but so long as its zero, the number doesn't matter. Another way to thiink of it is like the flat bonus jason added to the game, it goes on top of the base values after the fact.

Not gonna argue that making bread and mutton instead of the pies themselves is not just losing pips, although i wont agree that mutton pies are a good food choice overall, the number of pips your average player eats at doesnt line up nicely with mutton pies which makes it very easy to waste alot of it if you dont wanna be bothered looking for another food. Considering everyone has access to your food supply its best to assume worst case scenario.

betame · 2019-01-18 00:42:39

We're both interested in ranking foods based on their many factors. And you consider pip efficiency to be a very important one. You rightly keep it independent of all other factors so it boils down to simply how many pips the food gives per bite.

I think it'd help everyone understand your pip efficiency metric if you listed each pip value 20-3 and assigned a pip efficiency (which you defined as the average amount of the food that people waste by overeating) to each one. Maybe a bonus list for your combo food station ideas.

DestinyCall · 2019-01-18 00:44:31

Crumpaloo wrote:

Gotta disagree with the whole more bites the better theroy, other guy tried to argue that point and i just told him this. If you had one food with 1 pip, you could add as many uses to that food as you wanted, as long as the pip value of the food remains the same, the bites wont have any affect, this shows that bites/uses of a food are solely dependent of the pip value of the food itself, think of it like a multiplier, you can multiply any number by zero, but so long as its zero, the number doesn't matter. Another way to thiink of it is like the flat bonus jason added to the game, it goes on top of the base values after the fact.
Not gonna argue that making bread and mutton instead of the pies themselves is not just losing pips, although i wont agree that mutton pies are a good food choice overall, the number of pips your average player eats at doesnt line up nicely with mutton pies which makes it very easy to waste alot of it if you dont wanna be bothered looking for another food. Considering everyone has access to your food supply its best to assume worst case scenario.

Dear god. Talking to you is like throwing rubber balls at a brick wall.

The number of total bites is critical. Look at the numbers again. When you make those ingredients into food, you can either end up with 12 bites of food with a total pip value of 112 (bread and cooked mutton) or 16 bites of food with a total pip value of 240 (mutton pies). If someone eats food in the most wasteful way possible (by eating a bite with only one spent hunger pip), each wasteful bite would only provide 1 pip, regardless of the max value of the food.

In that case, you could get 16 pips out of the mutton pies and 12 pips from the mutton and bread. Pies still come out ahead. Of course, you could argue that you "lost" more by wasting the mutton pies (224 pips lost vs 100 lost), but that is completely meaningless when you consider that by making roast mutton and bread, you would already be sacrificing 128 pips due to opportunity cost. The mutton and bread is more wasteful AND gives fewer total pips. Inefficiency related to over-consumption has no impact on this situation. It does not matter.

Worst case scenario ... you should still make mutton pies instead of cooking the raw ingredients seperately. Always. Even if you are feeding crazy, over-eating babies and stubborn old people who hate berries. Mutton pies are just that good.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-18 01:58:43

DestinyCall wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
Gotta disagree with the whole more bites the better theroy, other guy tried to argue that point and i just told him this. If you had one food with 1 pip, you could add as many uses to that food as you wanted, as long as the pip value of the food remains the same, the bites wont have any affect, this shows that bites/uses of a food are solely dependent of the pip value of the food itself, think of it like a multiplier, you can multiply any number by zero, but so long as its zero, the number doesn't matter. Another way to thiink of it is like the flat bonus jason added to the game, it goes on top of the base values after the fact.
Not gonna argue that making bread and mutton instead of the pies themselves is not just losing pips, although i wont agree that mutton pies are a good food choice overall, the number of pips your average player eats at doesnt line up nicely with mutton pies which makes it very easy to waste alot of it if you dont wanna be bothered looking for another food. Considering everyone has access to your food supply its best to assume worst case scenario.
Dear god. Talking to you is like throwing rubber balls at a brick wall.
The number of total bites is critical. Look at the numbers again. When you make those ingredients into food, you can either end up with 12 bites of food with a total pip value of 112 (bread and cooked mutton) or 16 bites of food with a total pip value of 240 (mutton pies). If someone eats food in the most wasteful way possible (by eating a bite with only one spent hunger pip), each wasteful bite would only provide 1 pip, regardless of the max value of the food.
In that case, you could get 16 pips out of the mutton pies and 12 pips from the mutton and bread. Pies still come out ahead. Of course, you could argue that you "lost" more by wasting the mutton pies (224 pips lost vs 100 lost), but that is completely meaningless when you consider that by making roast mutton and bread, you would already be sacrificing 128 pips due to opportunity cost. The mutton and bread is more wasteful AND gives fewer total pips. Inefficiency related to over-consumption has no impact on this situation. It does not matter.
Worst case scenario ... you should still make mutton pies instead of cooking the raw ingredients seperately. Always. Even if you are feeding crazy, over-eating babies and stubborn old people who hate berries. Mutton pies are just that good.

Ugh i dont know why you are repeating the same point over and over again, yes when i wrote that part of the post i had a brain fart, and took that part down shortly after finding out, so bringing up the same point to tell me that im wrong about what i already admitted to saying to be wrong is just rude and unnecessary. Yeah i get it that the mutton pie has more bites then the bread and cooked mutton together but none of that matters in the first place because how many pips you are already losing by making them instead of the pies. So why are you beating a dead horse??

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-18 01:59:23)

DestinyCall · 2019-01-18 02:41:49

I'm not worried about the math error you made in your initial post. I'm worried that you are still arguing that mutton pie is not a good food choice overall. You are still claiming that it might get wasted by inconsiderate or lazy villagers. The point of my post was that even in an absolute worst case scenario, mutton pies are superior to the available alternative.

There is a problem at the core of your food theory and the math related to mutton pies helps to illustrate it in a very clear way. I think you really need to take a step back and re-think your approach to pip efficiency if you want to identify which foods are really best for the village.

Alias · 2019-01-18 08:21:17

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm not worried about the math error you made in your initial post. I'm worried that you are still arguing that mutton pie is not a good food choice overall. You are still claiming that it might get wasted by inconsiderate or lazy villagers. The point of my post was that even in an absolute worst case scenario, mutton pies are superior to the available alternative.
There is a problem at the core of your food theory and the math related to mutton pies helps to illustrate it in a very clear way. I think you really need to take a step back and re-think your approach to pip efficiency if you want to identify which foods are really best for the village.

This. He will not abandon his "pip efficiency" theory. He created his own food benchmark where he claims that pip efficiency if key factor, but each tier in this benchmark has foods with both high and low "pip efficiency", showing that its non-factor.

But the best part is him putting rabbit berry pie in top tier. This is 4x18 and is huuuge waste on all fronts. With the same ingredients and less effort you can create rabbit pie which is 4x14 and still have bowl of goose berries so 6x5. This option is faster, gives more total pips, is more "pip efficient" and gives more bites.
And yet he put rabbit berry pie at the top Bravo!

Sorry, Crumpaloo, but it seems there's something lacking in your knowledge and approach to the game. You messed up how skim milk is made, same for pies in this thread, ommited total plant output when comparing beans and corn, admitted you can eat pie twice cause you don't care and now glorify pie that is sin to make like potatoes. More and more people tell you that, but you create more and more topics and posts in response. You might have many hours in the game, but your posts question how they were spent.

Last edited by Alias (2019-01-18 08:34:46)

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-18 16:33:09

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm not worried about the math error you made in your initial post. I'm worried that you are still arguing that mutton pie is not a good food choice overall. You are still claiming that it might get wasted by inconsiderate or lazy villagers. The point of my post was that even in an absolute worst case scenario, mutton pies are superior to the available alternative.
There is a problem at the core of your food theory and the math related to mutton pies helps to illustrate it in a very clear way. I think you really need to take a step back and re-think your approach to pip efficiency if you want to identify which foods are really best for the village.

yeah and i agreed that the alternative was not as good as the mutton pies about 3 times now so at this point your just confusing me.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-18 16:49:47

Alias wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
I'm not worried about the math error you made in your initial post. I'm worried that you are still arguing that mutton pie is not a good food choice overall. You are still claiming that it might get wasted by inconsiderate or lazy villagers. The point of my post was that even in an absolute worst case scenario, mutton pies are superior to the available alternative.
There is a problem at the core of your food theory and the math related to mutton pies helps to illustrate it in a very clear way. I think you really need to take a step back and re-think your approach to pip efficiency if you want to identify which foods are really best for the village.
This. He will not abandon his "pip efficiency" theory. He created his own food benchmark where he claims that pip efficiency if key factor, but each tier in this benchmark has foods with both high and low "pip efficiency", showing that its non-factor.
But the best part is him putting rabbit berry pie in top tier. This is 4x18 and is huuuge waste on all fronts. With the same ingredients and less effort you can create rabbit pie which is 4x14 and still have bowl of goose berries so 6x5. This option is faster, gives more total pips, is more "pip efficient" and gives more bites.
And yet he put rabbit berry pie at the top Bravo!
Sorry, Crumpaloo, but it seems there's something lacking in your knowledge and approach to the game. You messed up how skim milk is made, same for pies in this thread, ommited total plant output when comparing beans and corn, admitted you can eat pie twice cause you don't care and now glorify pie that is sin to make like potatoes. More and more people tell you that, but you create more and more topics and posts in response. You might have many hours in the game, but your posts question how they were spent.

Ok if your saying that i believe that pip efficiency is the key factor to which foods are the best overall, and then claim thats i went back on that because im adding 18 pip pies at the top of my foods list, then you haven't been reading my post.

I have said numerous times that pip efficiency isn't the end all be all so trying to tell me something i dont find to be true is just misleading. Also i dont know how re-instigating an argument by talking to someone about me is progressive in any sense of the word, all your doing is making up misleading conclusions about what im thinking and then using those false beliefs as a support for an argument that makes no sense whatsoever.

If you really wanna hear what my proof of behind what im ACTUALLY saying then look at the post, i said that while pip efficiency leads to less pips wasted if you can account for the average number of pips a person has left when they start looking to eat food then subtract that by the max amount of pips a player can have on them at any given point which is 20, then you can use foods that would be considered more wasteful to actually end up saving more pips because you have accounted for it already.

As for that last bit i already refuted all of those points in a earlier post and you never replied back to them so idk why you are bringing them up again, and so far only two people have told me that, you, and destiny whom ive already replied to. Yeah i dont know how to make everything in this game, but that doesnt make what im saying any less valid if ive got the proof to back it up which i do, so instead of skimming over that and coming to your own conclusion, try to look at it from a neutral perspective instead of the one you got right now.

Gederian · 2019-01-18 18:34:01

I think you are both right and just mad at each other.

Pies are needed when traveling and are a byproduct so you must make them. You got off on the wrong foot here, arguing two different points.

The low pip vs high pip argument is probably mute anyways. You can't really control the major variable (what people eat) so just preach about YUM! Berry in bowl is not the same as berry in hand!

Let's just all be friends and do octo eves!

Booklat1 · 2019-01-18 19:28:55

Crumpaloo wrote:

Not gonna argue that making bread and mutton instead of the pies themselves is not just losing pips, although i wont agree that mutton pies are a good food choice overall, the number of pips your average player eats at doesnt line up nicely with mutton pies which makes it very easy to waste alot of it if you dont wanna be bothered looking for another food. Considering everyone has access to your food supply its best to assume worst case scenario.

yes, because you keep disconsidering cost efficiency, a much more relevant metric in favour of "eating berry rabbit pies allows you to not waste a pip)

I've made a formula to evaluate how much food you lose based on average pips when eating, maximum pips per bite and cost. I hope you'll realize how very absurdly wrong you are about mutton pies.

Alias · 2019-01-18 20:04:53

Crumpaloo wrote:

As for that last bit i already refuted all of those points in a earlier post and you never replied back to them so idk why you are bringing them up again, and so far only two people have told me that, you, and destiny whom ive already replied to. Yeah i dont know how to make everything in this game, but that doesnt make what im saying any less valid if ive got the proof to back it up which i do, so instead of skimming over that and coming to your own conclusion, try to look at it from a neutral perspective instead of the one you got right now.

You put rabbit berry pie in top tier of your food list. And you think you refuted or proved anything...

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#1 2019-01-17 04:05:04

Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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