Any suggestions for onetech?

mrslax · 2019-01-16 20:04:47

If the item is movable

Gederian · 2019-01-16 20:20:17

Something like pien car mind map for various things: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4802

Not sure if you can automate this for all objects while making it simple (e.g. removing obvious steps like getting iron).

Maybe it would be easier/better to hand design them and have a static "Recipes" link.

BladeWoods · 2019-01-17 06:34:55

A search option for matching the word could be nice, or maybe just change how the search list is organized.

For example, when you're looking for the car and search "car"
You get:
Carrot, Hand Cart, Last Card, Carrot Row, Wild Carrot, Wild Carrot, Carrot Crown, Unknown Card, Old Hand Cart, Derailed Cart, Deck of Cards, ...

The Crude Car I was looking for is behind dozens of other items.
I'm unsure how it's organized at all atm, and I'm suggesting that items with whole matching words get prioritized in the search results.

As more items come into the game, this will only get worse.

SSDarkMoon · 2019-01-17 15:58:56

I wish to know what can the thing do , now I just can see what it made from

ryanb · 2019-01-17 16:48:40

mrslax wrote:

detail info about item like despawn time, pickup age.

The despawn timer is shown on the right side under "Changes over Time" for each object.

It will say "Pickup at Age: 3" or something like this if the item is movable. If it doesn't say this it can't be picked up.

Gederian wrote:

Something like pien car mind map for various things: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4802
Not sure if you can automate this for all objects while making it simple (e.g. removing obvious steps like getting iron).
Maybe it would be easier/better to hand design them and have a static "Recipes" link.

I am working on a new way to view recipes which I think will resolve some of this. It will be a lot easier to view multiple items and see all of the ingredients needed to craft them.

Regarding hand designing, I want to keep onetech fully auto-generated so it doesn't require maintenance as the tech tree grows. I think the wiki and forums are a better place to do hand-crafted guides.

That said, this new crafting view will have a shareable URL so you can arrange it how you like and then share it with others.

BladeWoods wrote:

The Crude Car I was looking for is behind dozens of other items.
I'm unsure how it's organized at all atm, and I'm suggesting that items with whole matching words get prioritized in the search results.

Good point! At the moment the search just does a partial word search and sorts it based on the length of the name, so you always need to type something longer to find an item with a longer name. This could definitely be improved.

SSDarkMoon wrote:

I wish to know what can the thing do , now I just can see what it made from

On the object's page you can see what can be done with it under the "How to use" section. Is that what you're looking for?

Last edited by ryanb (2019-01-17 16:52:08)

SSDarkMoon · 2019-01-17 18:37:48

ryanb wrote:

SSDarkMoon wrote:
I wish to know what can the thing do , now I just can see what it made from
On the object's page you can see what can be done with it under the "How to use" section. Is that what you're looking for?

https://onetech.info/290-Iron-Ore

what is the next stap with Iron Ore?

ryanb · 2019-01-17 19:14:42

SSDarkMoon wrote:

https://onetech.info/290-Iron-Ore
what is the next stap with Iron Ore?

For Iron Ore you can either stack it or pick it up with tongs. I suppose picking it up with tongs is a more common operation and should be listed first.

Are you wanting to see the next step of placing iron in the furnace? The problem is picking it up with tongs turns it into a completely different object so onetech doesn't know it's still Iron Ore. I can't think of a good way to represent that.

betame · 2019-01-17 20:45:26

SSDarkMoon wrote:

https://onetech.info/290-Iron-Ore
what is the next stap with Iron Ore?

To follow an object's crafting path step by step, you'll need to click on the result of the 'how to use' section.

For example in this case (which is trickier than others to follow),
click 'iron ore in tongs',
then on the 'iron ore in tongs' page, click 'show more ways' under 'how to use' and click 'hot iron bloom in wooden tongs'

you can follow things forward or backward in their crafting web this way.

Léonard · 2019-01-17 21:00:09

ryanb wrote:

I am working on a new way to view recipes which I think will resolve some of this. It will be a lot easier to view multiple items and see all of the ingredients needed to craft them.
Regarding hand designing, I want to keep onetech fully auto-generated so it doesn't require maintenance as the tech tree grows. I think the wiki and forums are a better place to do hand-crafted guides.
That said, this new crafting view will have a shareable URL so you can arrange it how you like and then share it with others.

I'm not sure what's on your mind regarding the new crafting view but regardless of that I'd like to share with you my ideas so that perhaps it will help you along the way.

First off, I see there is both a "crafting recipe" and a "tech tree" page.
It seems to me like both are trying to accomplish the same thing, just in a different way.
The only difference would be that crafting recipe breaks down the whole page into items that are considered ingredients and lists them (which is very useful obviously).
I think the key would be to simply merge the two and improve on the tree design.

The crafting recipe page seems to break down things into steps to follow.
Maybe to preserve the "start with this step then build up to this" aspect you could reverse the tree with the roots being at the top.
I also saw someone mention mind maps which in this context would just end up being the same tree except displayed horizontally which I think would be much more messy than having it be vertical (whether the roots are at the top or bottom).

Now something that would greatly improve it is take the collapsing ability from the crafting recipe page and implement it there.
I know it's already present there in some form but it is limited in comparison.
For example, you cannot view multiple branches at once.
Expanding something breaks the tree which makes it a little confusing because the only thing indicating which item is being expanded is the highlighted small arrow under them.
In comparison the crafting recipe page doesn't break anything off by expanding items and retains its continuity.
Another thing would be the ability to collapse any item displayed. This I believe would greatly help.
The items that are already collapsed when loading the page could stay the way they are right now (as in don't expand any more lines if it doesn't fit in the center area) or perhaps you could choose to display down to only one single root.
After that, adding both a "collapse all" and "expand all" button at the top would be wonderful.
On this note, another useful shortcut could be to have a right click on an icon recursively expand everything under the target item whereas a left click would only expand one more line from the branch/item.
If you want to retain the ability to view a single item's page then make that a click on its title (which you could display in small text under its icon) instead of an icon click which would be replaced by the collapse/expand functions.

I think you should not bother with trying to fit the tree within the center grey area so that if a user decides they want to expand everything and end up with a gigantic tree it doesn't look like it pokes out unintentionally.
Instead you could simply leave it under the grey area and have that be used simply for displaying necessary information on top of the resources listing and perhaps the collapse/expand all buttons if you implement them.

Another key aspect of this all is the items considered ingredients in the crafting recipe page.
The roots of the tree should be said ingredients listed on top.
On top of that, I think making the ingredients thing more flexible would be extremely helpful.
As an example you linked the diesel engine recipe which I found very interesting.
The items that are considered ingredients seem arbitrary to me: the newcomen machines are considered ingredients but not the iron ingots or even the iron rods.
You would expect someone that knows how to build those machines to also know how to make simple iron ingots (which you require to build them mind you).
I think a very good way to address this problem would be to use the difficulty category to determine which objects are considered roots/ingredients.
I don't know if this metric is given along with the objects or if you simply calculate it based on the number of steps required to build the object (since it's displayed right next to the category) but regardless of the method it's already automatic as you mentioned so using that shouldn't be a problem.
I think it would be useful to rename the category as "technological level" rather than "difficulty".
That way, you can simply say that ingredients are selected based on the object's technological level rather than simple difficulty which would make more sense.
Keep in mind that I also think those ingredient "presets" (based on technology level) should be tweakable by the user.
So not only could they choose from a list where you would have "moderately easy, hard, very hard, extremely hard, etc.." but also add/remove items from such presets themselves.
Ideally these ingredient settings would also be in the top grey area, perhaps in their own tab.
You could also provide some standard presets made up by the community to select from which would be even more useful (that wouldn't exactly be automatic but wouldn't require maintenance either once added to the site).
It could also be useful to improve how the difficulty/technological level is calculated (if it's not already provided with the object data) which would in turn improve the selected ingredients for recipes.

That's all the ideas I had, hopefully they might help you in some way.
I know I had a ton to say so sorry about that if you manage to read it all.

ryanb · 2019-01-18 21:53:01

Léonard wrote:

First off, I see there is both a "crafting recipe" and a "tech tree" page.
It seems to me like both are trying to accomplish the same thing, just in a different way.
The only difference would be that crafting recipe breaks down the whole page into items that are considered ingredients and lists them (which is very useful obviously).
I think the key would be to simply merge the two and improve on the tree design.

The key difference between the two is the starting point. The tech tree starts from the given object, and the crafting recipe starts at its base ingredients. I usually use the crafting recipe page, but I see many still use the tech tree, I think because it is simpler.

Another difference is the Recipe page is more usable on phones. I want to keep that aspect of it.

The improved crafting page, I'm calling a Crafting Board, shows a simplified recipe for an object and a list of ingredients at the top. Clicking an ingredient will open that object in a new panel. This way you can expand the recipes as needed. You can even open two unrelated objects to see the shared resources between them.

This may end up replacing the tree view too, but I'll have to see what people think.

Léonard wrote:

I also saw someone mention mind maps which in this context would just end up being the same tree except displayed horizontally which I think would be much more messy than having it be vertical (whether the roots are at the top or bottom).

Mind maps usually expand outward in all directions from a central node (not just horizontally). I may end up doing a cool mind-map style graph after the Crafting Board. I think it will be more neat than useful, but still worth it.

Léonard wrote:

Now something that would greatly improve it is take the collapsing ability from the crafting recipe page and implement it there.
I know it's already present there in some form but it is limited in comparison.

I think the Crafting Board will be close enough to what you're envisioning. It won't be a true graph because I want it to be usable on mobile. However it should be quite useful.

Léonard wrote:

Another key aspect of this all is the items considered ingredients in the crafting recipe page.
The roots of the tree should be said ingredients listed on top.
On top of that, I think making the ingredients thing more flexible would be extremely helpful.
As an example you linked the diesel engine recipe which I found very interesting.
The items that are considered ingredients seem arbitrary to me: the newcomen machines are considered ingredients but not the iron ingots or even the iron rods.
You would expect someone that knows how to build those machines to also know how to make simple iron ingots (which you require to build them mind you).

An ingredient on the crafting recipe page is either a tool that doesn't get consumed or a naturally spawning object. As you pointed out, this means you get the full iron smelting process on a lot of recipes which isn't very intuitive. This is something I hope to solve with the Crafting Board.

Léonard wrote:

I think a very good way to address this problem would be to use the difficulty category to determine which objects are considered roots/ingredients.
I don't know if this metric is given along with the objects or if you simply calculate it based on the number of steps required to build the object (since it's displayed right next to the category) but regardless of the method it's already automatic as you mentioned so using that shouldn't be a problem.
I think it would be useful to rename the category as "technological level" rather than "difficulty".
That way, you can simply say that ingredients are selected based on the object's technological level rather than simple difficulty which would make more sense.
Keep in mind that I also think those ingredient "presets" (based on technology level) should be tweakable by the user.
So not only could they choose from a list where you would have "moderately easy, hard, very hard, extremely hard, etc.." but also add/remove items from such presets themselves.
Ideally these ingredient settings would also be in the top grey area, perhaps in their own tab.
You could also provide some standard presets made up by the community to select from which would be even more useful (that wouldn't exactly be automatic but wouldn't require maintenance either once added to the site).
It could also be useful to improve how the difficulty/technological level is calculated (if it's not already provided with the object data) which would in turn improve the selected ingredients for recipes.

I find difficulty to be hard to calculate in a reliable manner. At the moment the difficulty calculation is not much better than measuring difficulty by the item's depth in the tree. I hope to improve this in the future, but in the meantime I don't plan to use difficulty calculation for much.

Léonard wrote:

That's all the ideas I had, hopefully they might help you in some way.
I know I had a ton to say so sorry about that if you manage to read it all.

Thanks for the suggestions! Good ideas.

wio · 2019-01-19 02:56:19

ryanb wrote:

I've actually worked on this a bit to improve the difficulty info. In theory you could estimate how long it takes to find a natural object based on its spawn chance. Then add those two numbers together for each object up the chain.

Adding them isn't necessarily right because things can be done in parallel. I guess your estimate would be of the total man-hours.

ryanb wrote:

The challenge comes when you need to track reusing objects that you don't need to craft again because otherwise the numbers blow up really quickly.

For finite use tools, divide the crafting time by the expected number of uses.
Each item would need to know if an infinite use tool was used to craft it to prevent double counting, which might be overkill.
You could just ignore the craft time of infinite use tools, or treat them as finite use tools with a huge number of uses.
Maybe for situations where the infinite use tool has a higher crafting time than the other ingredient, you add it in.

ryanb · 2019-01-19 04:25:58

wio wrote:

Adding them isn't necessarily right because things can be done in parallel. I guess your estimate would be of the total man-hours

True anything with a decay time can be done in parallel. We could track the decay time for each object and remove overlapping decay times. If you have to wait 5 minutes on one object and 10 on another then combining them could be 10 minutes total decay.

The time estimate would be total man hours. You could divide it by the total players to estimate a larger village working efficiently.

Also this wouldn’t consider consumed food during that time and the time it takes to make the food. This is more for comparing objects relatively.

wio wrote:

For finite use tools, divide the crafting time by the expected number of uses.
Each item would need to know if an infinite use tool was used to craft it to prevent double counting, which might be overkill.
You could just ignore the craft time of infinite use tools, or treat them as finite use tools with a huge number of uses.
Maybe for situations where the infinite use tool has a higher crafting time than the other ingredient, you add it in.

Right, this is where things get tricky. Each object needs to track the leftover objects and the uses they have left. When combining objects consider the objects used and subtract their uses.

Last edited by ryanb (2019-01-19 04:35:38)

Lily · 2019-01-19 04:36:41

I love that website, though I think something could be done with the more advanced tech. I like the tech tree, but the more advanced stuff like radios, are getting so complex now it is getting hard to do. Could make the tech tree way bigger, but as more advanced stuff comes I can see it getting crazy big.

Caiaphus Tarwater · 2020-04-09 17:05:53

I know this is an old thread, but I have no other way to express my gratitude to ryanb for his work on Onetech.

I'm a noob who has fallen in love with the game, and Onetech has been vitally helpful. I study Onetech and Gamepedia before and after each game.

Thank you, sir.

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-01-16 20:04:47

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#27 2019-01-16 20:20:17

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#28 2019-01-17 06:34:55

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#29 2019-01-17 15:58:56

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#30 2019-01-17 16:48:40

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#31 2019-01-17 18:37:48

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#32 2019-01-17 19:14:42

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#33 2019-01-17 20:45:26

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#34 2019-01-17 21:00:09

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#35 2019-01-18 21:53:01

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#36 2019-01-19 02:56:19

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#37 2019-01-19 04:25:58

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#38 2019-01-19 04:36:41

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

#39 2020-04-09 17:05:53

Re: Any suggestions for onetech?

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