Update v195: Temperature of Desert Buffed, (Jungles still op)

betame · 2019-02-01 02:33:46

Irrelevant Now with v199 Heat Overhaul

(the older curves are the faded ones)

See also, for the specifics: Temperature Mechanics

Last edited by betame (2019-02-17 03:40:24)

Booklat1 · 2019-02-01 03:28:52

wait, is light orange the new desert?

betame · 2019-02-01 03:34:33

Booklat1 wrote:

wait, is light orange the new desert?

Neglected to state that, woops.
Light colors are the old curves as they were before update v195.
Solid colors are the new curves.

Booklat1 · 2019-02-01 03:41:34

Oh, this is kinda lame, I don't like deserts being all that good and they just got better. I think building are a distant dream.

BladeWoods · 2019-02-01 04:02:56

Every town being in a desert was already stupid...

betame · 2019-02-01 04:04:44

Noticed that you'd need a nearly perfect set of clothes in the neutral biome to enjoy the same benefits of a desert.

Ferna · 2019-02-01 05:23:00

Could you also generate a chart showing the food consumption in each biome while suffering from Yellow Fever?

Since there are certain insulation levels where Yellow Fever transitions from non-lethal to lethal without outside assistance, keeping clothing levels under that survival threshold is a critical factor that experienced players generally prioritize before optimizing their temperature efficiency for food consumption.

If we can pinpoint that threshold numerically, there should be an "ideal" insulation level or set of clothes for hunters, miners, etc. to wear when venturing across colder biomes ( + food) which balances against the penalties of returning to a desert village periodically ( - food) without adding risk for accidental deaths. That would be a good enough basis for experienced players to teach it to newbies, then!

Last edited by Ferna (2019-02-01 05:37:52)

MultiLife · 2019-02-01 05:52:38

Maybe we need more animals and skins to make early game full insulation set of clothes; deer skin, bison skin, fur boots etc.? But agh, naked and in desert/jungle just trumps it all still, with no extra effort going to insulation crafting. I guess there is no hope for settling in large grasslands, savannah or swamp. We'd need some crazy rehauls here to make desert less good (shield and shelter from sun required), jungles harder to settle into without cutting down trees, biome borders just something else - maybe a transition biome to take over the edges we have normally, I dunno.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-02-01 05:54:48)

DestinyCall · 2019-02-01 06:06:02

Ferna wrote:

Could you also generate a chart showing the food consumption in each biome while suffering from Yellow Fever?
Since there are certain insulation levels where Yellow Fever transitions from non-lethal to lethal without outside assistance, keeping clothing levels under that survival threshold is a critical factor that experienced players generally prioritize before optimizing their temperature efficiency for food consumption.
If we can pinpoint that threshold numerically, there should be an "ideal" insulation level or set of clothes for hunters, miners, etc. to wear when venturing across colder biomes ( + food) which balances against the penalties of returning to a desert village periodically ( - food) without adding risk for accidental deaths. That would be a good enough basis for experienced players to teach it to newbies, then!

Someone else will have to crunch the numbers to get an exact amount, but you basically want to avoid more than 50% insulation if there's any significant risk of mosquitoes or if you spend the majority of your time in deep desert. That works out to about two to three clothing items, depending on their quality and coverage. Most large clothing items give around 20-30% insulation and small items (shoes) give from 4-9% each. So if you are wearing all rabbit gear, you'll be around 86% insulated. All wool gear is only 57% because there's no wool leg items. All ragged (aged) gear is only 40%, which is about the same as wearing a sheep skin, straw hat and reed skirt. I don't think it is currently possible to reach over 90% insulation with the available clothing items.

In a Jungle village, I'll never wear more than a few pieces of insulating clothing, unless I spend almost all of my time far away from the village. Backpacks and aprons are safe. But wearing a shirt/pants combo is risky and you definitely would not want to add a hat or shoes if you are already wearing that much in jungle. You will run into bugs eventually. It's just a matter of time. In a Desert village, I'll gear up depending on my occupation. There is less risk of fast death from fever, but the more gear you wear, the more food you will need to eat to offset the insulation factor. If I'm spending almost all of my time in deep desert, then I won't bother wearing more than one or two pieces of clothing. But if I'm going in and out of cold areas frequently, I'll wear as much as I can since it allows me to warm up quickly while I'm in the heat and stay warm longer when I'm out in the cold, so I stay more balanced overall. Just have to be mindful to move out of the desert before I catch heat-stroke, if I'm fully geared out.

ruanna · 2019-02-01 06:22:25

Sorry, can someone explain this in simple words what exactly the changes mean?

Greep · 2019-02-01 06:24:02

tl;dr

For fertility: Jungle slightly worse, everything else slightly better, even desert which was already good.

For food: desert much better, everything else nearly no change.

Last edited by Greep (2019-02-01 06:26:19)

betame · 2019-02-01 10:00:34

DestinyCall wrote:

Ferna wrote:
Could you also generate a chart showing the food consumption in each biome while suffering from Yellow Fever?
Since there are certain insulation levels where Yellow Fever transitions from non-lethal to lethal without outside assistance, keeping clothing levels under that survival threshold is a critical factor that experienced players generally prioritize before optimizing their temperature efficiency for food consumption.
If we can pinpoint that threshold numerically, there should be an "ideal" insulation level or set of clothes for hunters, miners, etc. to wear when venturing across colder biomes ( + food) which balances against the penalties of returning to a desert village periodically ( - food) without adding risk for accidental deaths. That would be a good enough basis for experienced players to teach it to newbies, then!
Someone else will have to crunch the numbers to get an exact amount, but you basically want to avoid more than 50% insulation if there's any significant risk of mosquitoes or if you spend the majority of your time in deep desert. That works out to about two to three clothing items, depending on their quality and coverage. Most large clothing items give around 20-30% insulation and small items (shoes) give from 4-9% each. So if you are wearing all rabbit gear, you'll be around 86% insulated. All wool gear is only 57% because there's no wool leg items. All ragged (aged) gear is only 40%, which is about the same as wearing a sheep skin, straw hat and reed skirt. I don't think it is currently possible to reach over 90% insulation with the available clothing items.
In a Jungle village, I'll never wear more than a few pieces of insulating clothing, unless I spend almost all of my time far away from the village. Backpacks and aprons are safe. But wearing a shirt/pants combo is risky and you definitely would not want to add a hat or shoes if you are already wearing that much in jungle. You will run into bugs eventually. It's just a matter of time. In a Desert village, I'll gear up depending on my occupation. There is less risk of fast death from fever, but the more gear you wear, the more food you will need to eat to offset the insulation factor. If I'm spending almost all of my time in deep desert, then I won't bother wearing more than one or two pieces of clothing. But if I'm going in and out of cold areas frequently, I'll wear as much as I can since it allows me to warm up quickly while I'm in the heat and stay warm longer when I'm out in the cold, so I stay more balanced overall. Just have to be mindful to move out of the desert before I catch heat-stroke, if I'm fully geared out.

I'm a proponent 0 effort going to clothing because I can't justify the cost. If I'm traveling out of the village then I don't care if I'm cold because there should always be free wild food.

If you're spending half of your time in/out of the desert, then 60% would be the ideal insulation, but:

Yellow Fever and Clothing

It adds 8 heat to your tile, so your clothing traps it in. Yellow fever is survivable (without assistance) so long as you don't have much clothing and you go to a neutral biome (or ice is even better) quickly enough. The fever lasts 35 seconds, so if you start with all 6 pips you can survive at an average of 5.84 sec/pip.

Biome Ins% playerHeat Sec/Pip
Ice    0%    0.5822     18.71
Ice   44%    0.9040     5.84

Neut   0%    0.6340     16.64
Neut  40%    0.9098     5.61

due to heat latency, you could probably get away with a tiny bit more insulation.

Last edited by betame (2019-02-01 20:03:08)

Ferna · 2019-02-01 11:05:30

ruanna wrote:

Sorry, can someone explain this in simple words what exactly the changes mean?

For village design, this patch makes it very appealing to plan most (or all) of your village's activities in deep desert regions. A wider gap between desert and meadow temperatures means settling along the boundaries of a desert for ideal temperatures is not very attractive anymore, since the natural sprawl of players into cold areas is likely to cancel out any long-term benefit from the village location.

One way to think about the impact of village design is how it encourages newbies to be efficient (without knowing it). Experienced players often do this by neutralizing dangers, picking where to build village work areas, and expanding farms/wells around tiles that are better for temperature efficiency. When players need to exit the village area, ensuring they have roads, backpacks, and handcarts can also reduce how much necessary time is spent in cold biomes.

If you want to visualize this in terms of food efficiency, here's how much each player effectively "donates" for the village in v195 if you can nudge them toward spending more time in each biome:

(all values are rounded to keep it simple, assuming no or light clothes)

As a last way to frame it: for each newbie you can encourage to move from meadow to deep desert tiles while living in the village, they now save enough food to feed another newbie for an entire life! That makes Desert biomes incredibly useful in v195.

Ferna · 2019-02-01 13:41:58

betame wrote:

Yellow Fever and Clothing
It adds 8 heat to your tile, so your clothing traps it in. Yellow fever is survivable (without assistance) so long as you don't have much clothing and you go to a neutral biome (or ice is even better) quickly enough. The fever lasts 35 seconds, so if you start with all 6 pips you can survive at an average of 5.84 sec/pip.

Based on the survival threshold at 40% insulation, I added a bit of extra analysis to the temperature efficiency graph to show how clothing and village structures can affect players (click for larger version):

Generally, it looks like any safe level of clothing is universally beneficial for villages with most of their tiles in Meadows, Wetlands, or Jungle. However, if a village is primarily Desert you really need a significant exploration profession (like hunting, iron mining, resource hauling, etc.) to justify wearing any clothing at all. The break-even point happens at ~40% of your time away from Desert tiles.

It's also interesting that the extreme food swing for Desert biomes lands pretty far outside normal player conditions. There are only a few special cases where inattentive players might trigger it:

Wearing unsafe amounts of clothing, then venturing into a Desert (if Yellow Fever doesn't kill you first)
Building a Bear Fur Floor on a Desert tile (+50% insulation)
Warming yourself at a Large Fire while standing in Desert

Of those, going over the safe limit on clothing is surprisingly easy (almost anything with 3 or more pieces!). However, experienced players tend to learn pretty quickly that full outfits are dangerous after a few lethal encounters with Mosquitoes bumbling around biomes where they don't belong.

This at least demonstrates that wearing 1-2 pieces of clothing is typically beneficial, since the food loss on Deserts is nowhere near severe at safe insulation levels. Wooden and stone flooring on Deserts is also relatively harmless, as long as you don't let newbies place Bear Fur Rugs down inappropriately.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-02-01 14:28:36

My standard outfit is rabbit fur pants plus rabbit fur shoes. Very easy to make if a town has rabbit fur scraps and some needles with balls of thread from sheep.

Late last night I put on a full set of clothing with a seal skin coat while I was rabbit hunting. Switched to iron scavenging and ran into a mosquito, then didn't make it back to town. Doh! Maybe I should have gone to bed rather than playing that last life...

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-01 19:05:28

Just stay naked.

If you're reading this forum, you're skilled enough to both produce and consume enough food to keep yourself alive naked in any biome.

Clothing turns out to be mostly a distraction, sadly.

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-01 19:49:59

i love all the work people put in to analyzing data etc about this game.

At the same time, it's pretty damn easy to produce a surplus. Certainly, you don't want to hang out in tundra and shit, but there is no reason to be too obsessed with food efficiency. Though of course some things, like the damn burritos, are absolutely not worth making (seriously, one wheat needs to make 4 tortillas)

I wonder how many experienced players die because they wait to the very last minute to eat to save food.

When once again, If you have 5 people involved in food production you can easily feed like 15-20 players.

BladeWoods · 2019-02-02 18:23:27

Burritos are a perfectly good food. Tacos on the otherhand, never taco.

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-02 21:53:00

doesn't it take a whole wheat to make a single burrito or am misunderstanding how it works? Cause my understanding is that you can use the same beans for multiple, but it's still one wheat per tortilla.

I mean, I suppose potentially one has wheat to waste in some situations.

DestinyCall · 2019-02-02 22:01:09

fragilityh14 wrote:

doesn't it take a whole wheat to make a single burrito or am misunderstanding how it works? Cause my understanding is that you can use the same beans for multiple, but it's still one wheat per tortilla.
I mean, I suppose potentially one has wheat to waste in some situations.

One wheat makes four wheat tortillas. Each tortilla makes a burrito. You can make up to six burritos at a time by adding cooked beans to a stack.

For tacos, you need corn masa instead of wheat dough. Masa requires slack lime, which takes a lot more water and also limestone, so it is pretty labor and resource heavy, compared with burittos.

If you have mutton or rabbit meat available, you should make meat pies. They give signifiacantly more food for less labor and resource cost, compared with burittos, bread or berry pies. If you have way too much wheat and already have a bunch of pies, the other options can be made to provide more yum options for experienced players. But otherwise, it is a bad investment.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-02-02 22:03:40)

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-02 22:28:55

oh, do you hit the dough on the rock 4 times and it produces a new tortilla each time?

For sure the one time I did it I got a single burrito.

And I do mostly make meat pies, and bread. I end up doing quite a lot of baking because no one else is doing it.

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-03 03:10:15

Mutton pies are for feeding people.

All the other food is for feeding your soul.

DestinyCall · 2019-02-03 05:11:10

fragilityh14 wrote:

oh, do you hit the dough on the rock 4 times and it produces a new tortilla each time?
For sure the one time I did it I got a single burrito.

And I do mostly make meat pies, and bread. I end up doing quite a lot of baking because no one else is doing it.

Like with pies, the dough for tortillas can be put on the rock four times before the bowl is empty. Each portion makes one tortilla. So with one wheat, you can make four bean burritos, four pies, or one loaf of bread. The bread gives the least food. Meat pies give the most food. Burritos are better than bread in total food, but the beans cost too much to produce, so they are not very cost effective in terms of water/dirt.

Ferna · 2019-02-03 06:24:58

BladeWoods wrote:

Burritos are a perfectly good food. Tacos on the otherhand, never taco.

I very strongly recommend against ever making Bean Burritos. They're a net food loss (-9 pips) compared to using the same ingredients for Bread and Bowl of Green Beans, so you get nothing back for the time and effort they take to produce.

While Bean Tacos (+48 pips) and Pork Tacos (+76 pips) are modestly productive, they're pretty poor for water efficiency before Kerosene / Diesel make water wildly abundant. Better alternatives for your Green Beans and Dried Corn can be either Three Sisters Stew (+195 pips) or drawing Whole Milk from a Cow (+128 to +408 pips depending on your speed). The payback for your time with these is simply astronomical in comparison.

pein · 2019-02-03 08:46:04

bean burritos use up 1.5 wheat, bread 1 , pies 0.25 for 1 plate
its just a special case of having too much beans, happens often that people pick a seed accidentally, drop it, then someone plants it everywhere

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-02-01 02:33:46