One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

sdogg2m · 2019-02-10 12:51:39

I want to start off by saying I don't like griefing and I with rare exception have greifed a camp but when I did I noticed some problems that I think will prevent the player base from growing if not resolved.

1) Only one greifer can destroy a new camp.

I learned this by accident but I was single handledly able to destroy the work of eight people simply by eating food and then moving one food item to a remote location from our central camp. I did this in excess of 20 minutes and was able to destroy the camp.

One player with just 20 minutes being able to destroy the progress of eight others is a significant imbalance issue. I believe the problem here is two fold. 1) The length of time to replenish gooseberry bushes and 2) the lack of knowledge by the player base for cooking options. I will leave others to propose solutions. The issue that it is far too easy for one person to destroy the work of many and those who are working hard to keep the camp operating may not have the time to observe someone's griefing behavior.

2) Twins, Triplets, Quadruplets, Oh My

You feel like grabbing a couple of friends from discord or steam and playing together to seriously build up a camp in a short period of time. Too bad! If one person can easily destroy the work of eight then two can take out sixteen, etc. Feeding multiple players is too risky and this is a problem that will affect the player base. Who doesn't want to play with friends? Can't allow it in OHOL if you want to continue your lineage which means those who want to play a multiplayer experience will look elsewhere.

I made the mistake last night of being a nice mom and feeding quadruplet boys who in turned ended up destroy my camp. No more and that means fewer people will play.

These next three issues are not greifer related but I think are an issue

3) False starts

Most people want to just log into a game and play but you can't do that in OHOL. You have too many options available to other players that can and will waste your time. Either a mother that doesn't want to feed you. A player on a horse that doesn't realize you were born. An eve that can't take you on because she is looking for a base. A person who spawns as an eve and immediately has a child but suicides and the second players time is also wasted.

In other words too much time is wasted just to be able to get into a decent one hour game and then to have more time wasted after that. This is a deterrent that will discourage long gaming sessions or continuous daily play.

4) A separate download to enhance play

If a new player needs to seek out a separate mod to download and implement just to enhance game play then your game suffers. In this case slightly but it does. If I hadn't heard of the mod by asking about all these suiciding babies then I would have put this game down sooner. The experience is just that much better after installing the mod. The link to the mod including installation instructions should be under a main heading in the top section of the main website.

5) Late night/early morning fading of villages or towns

The end game is keeping your line going and being proud of it. At this rate only a few towns are producing anything and this is because the player base drops to 100 users at night. If I had the ambition to be an eve and to start a camp why would I continue doing this knowing that once a late hour hits on the west coast that my lineage will die out (And it will)? The answer is you wouldn't. So the bulk of the players are funneled into established cities and the rest will eventually realize they are wasting their time and then they will stop wasting their time.

I love the concept of this game and I have played it solid for three weeks but I want my lineage to go past 20 generations and unless I am willing to travel to a town (which I would prefer not to) this won't happen. Even cities become extinct. I hope these issues will get address particularly the first two. I don't have all the answers or I would propose them but I want to highlight these issues in hopes for improvements.

Thank you for such a wonderful concept and hours of enjoyment. I hope for many more.

Last edited by sdogg2m (2019-02-10 18:10:18)

Anandamide · 2019-02-10 16:47:38

I like the mod too, Jason doesn't though because it does completely change the gameplay. He has a very specific vision for this game, and you bought the wrong one if you dont see that vision too. The whole point is that you cant do anything very meaningful in one life( unless your memory and reflexes are sharp, and you have some luck), and that you have to work with others. Now he isnt preventing you from using the mod, or building it yourself(there is a guide!). As for griefers, that's a "feature" too. This isn't a creative sandbox, you must think of all facets of societal life and that includes managing low productivity people, and dealing with greifers. Without them, all villages are: find spot, make bowls, farm, find iron, make some stuff. Since the tech tree can be finished in under ten generations for now, there is no point in super long term civs, so that also is a response to griefs and the low pop at different times of day. When the tech tree takes hundreds of lives to explore, it will be worth having long term civs. If you want to play a game with none of the risk or reward of other players, do solo eve on an empty server. You will respawn where you die as long as you make it to 60. Side note, Jason already has provided the option to curse. If people dont want to play alone endlessly, they will behave better, or they will get bored of having a couple grief lives and then hours of donkey town and will quit playing. Work on being a better eve, because the majority of griefers do so on civs and not eve camps.

Booklat1 · 2019-02-10 17:02:23

my thoughts on this

You can't easily kill a line if it just so happens to have good players in it. You'll get snowballed, stabbed, shot. Even early game, it's not worth buffing berries (which are catastrophical to the balance of this game's economy) to prevent noobcamps from dying. Noobcamps should die, more cmps will be created, with better players on them.

Also, late night population drops have always been an issue and might also remain being. But that being said, after he big server went live this became much much better. We're not supposed to have a ton of lines active for long hours anyway, it s perfectly viable for a few cities to remain active, If yours is dying its time to mass yum bonuses and keep your temperature. That's how you ensure your line, and not others, survive. (This IS indeed an issue with the game, but it got better already and we really need more players to prevent this.)

Nepumuk · 2019-02-10 17:21:33

Yes there is a huge power imbalance between worse and better players and griefers that are better players have an easy time tearing down what any numbers of players built.
Regardless of whether that's part of any vision or not it significantly impacts players ability to enjoy the game in a negative way. Smart griefers don't go to donkey town all the time, people might not even know who's screwing with them in the background while their town dies.
Curses haven't been a sufficient griefer deterrent in a while now, the number of griefers vs. the number of available curses just doesn't work out.
Becoming a better Eve will do nothing to protect you from griefers, some like trolling big towns, some small ones. Eve camps are an especially easy target due to their vulnerability.
As for the other issues, I mostly agree with OP but I have no hopes that Jason will change any of this. He will never implement the mod and he doesn't want us to be able to 'pick' our life circumstances. And he cannot really change much about the nocturnal infertility due to player base drop.

So pushing for a change in curse mechanics/the way griefers are handled is imo the only thing that has somewhat of a chance to be successful and I'm even skeptical about that tbh... just my 2 cents.

sdogg2m · 2019-02-10 18:02:28

"You can't easily kill a line if it just so happens to have good players in it. You'll get snowballed, stabbed, shot. Even early game, it's not worth buffing berries (which are catastrophical to the balance of this game's economy) to prevent noobcamps from dying. Noobcamps should die, more cmps will be created, with better players on them."

And how would I know that x babies are "good?" By asking them, "Are you new?" I wouldn't and I shouldn't expect only good players to play in my camp. If you want to create or allow for complexity in resource management then you must have an effective deterrent for those whose goal is simply to consume resources, kill, and destroy.

I know based on what you are saying above that effectively players are the ones who are supposed to deter griefing by killing other players. Sort of a policing community for those that are law breakers but even then this is a problem as the more experienced players are going to be the law breakers. If don't want to create a stiffer punishment then you should at least filter newer players into a community (Call it NoobTown if you will) where killing others is not allowed and then the player only advances after x number of hours of playtime.

I don't know of the ideal solution, I just know the current framework of game play produces a significant amount of frustration when I have a goal for one hour and then I have to spend a significant portion of that dealing with those who want to destroy.

Léonard · 2019-02-10 18:18:44

Anandamide wrote:

I like the mod too, Jason doesn't though because it does completely change the gameplay. He has a very specific vision for this game, and you bought the wrong one if you dont see that vision too.

If by changing the gameplay you mean improve it then sure.
Don't worry, it doesn't fundamentally changes the gameplay.
Unless you consider "rope finding simulator" part of the gameplay.

With the current level of litter in cities, trying to find lost stuff with the default zoom level is insanely frustrating.
Also helps with dealing with griefers (as in knowing what they're doing).

When I bought the game, I didn't specifically envision myself constantly dealing with griefers and constantly having to look for rope.
When it comes to the "vision of the game" I always love to use the trailer as a frame of reference.
Why? Because at the end of the day, it's what made me buy the game. It's also unchanging (hence the reference part) and always gives the same impression (which is not guaranteed with Jason himself..).

Anandamide wrote:

The whole point is that you cant do anything very meaningful in one life( unless your memory and reflexes are sharp, and you have some luck), and that you have to work with others.

I'm not sure if this is still arguing against the zoom out mod since it's just after that.
But if it is, it's not well thought out.
You do realize that the current default zoom level makes cooperating very difficult?
It makes literally everything that can be considered cooperation difficult.
Talking to each other is hard because of the zoom level.
Following each other is hard because of the zoom level.

The only thing that you can consider working is people giving directions (if you can get past the talking issue and the obvious speech limit..) for important resources.
Where is the savanna with rabbits? Where's the badlands with iron?
Even then, I expect most people succeed with this because of the zoom out mod itself.
If perhaps Jason made some sort of orientation update with shared maps and the likes then I would consider zooming out much less often.

I think Jason doesn't realize how much the zoom out mod is actually needed which is what the OP is pointing out.
I'm fairly certain that without it, the player count would drastically decrease which the OP pointed out as well.
Because let's face it, a finding rope simulator is not fun to play. I'm willing to bet money that the majority of regular users who read this forum use it.

Anandamide wrote:

As for griefers, that's a "feature" too. This isn't a creative sandbox, you must think of all facets of societal life and that includes managing low productivity people, and dealing with greifers.

I don't remember seeing people kill each other in the trailer.
And frankly if I did, I wouldn't have bought the game.
I don't want to play a new The Forest or Rust.
I bought the game thinking I would help build civilization with other players and that future generations would build up on it.
Having griefers in the game means the exact opposite. Having griefers means the extinction of civilizations and the halt of progress.

In general, I really don't understand people who keep trying to sell me griefing as an intended game mechanic.
No, I do not want that. Nobody other than the griefers want that.
Guess why? Because it's not fun for anybody other than the griefers themsevles.
Only a tiny fraction of people really "enjoy" fighting griefers and usually it's the people who like to call themselves "ultra pro" and have "excellent fighting skills".
The game doesn't even have proper PVP mechanics in place for fighting. So even just fighting in general for any sort of roleplay I wouldn't consider fun.

Anandamide wrote:

Without them, all villages are: find spot, make bowls, farm, find iron, make some stuff.

Sure, you can make anything sound bland and boring if you try hard enough.
My turn. With griefing, the game is just all that you listed except you add "dealing with annoying assholes" at the end of the list.
Sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?

This point also makes the assumption that people actually enjoy dealing with griefers which is demonstrably false.

Anandamide wrote:

If people dont want to play alone endlessly, they will behave better, or they will get bored of having a couple grief lives and then hours of donkey town and will quit playing.

This implies that the curse system is working as it should and that griefers do spend time in donkey town.
This is also demonstrably false. A lot of griefers are experienced players who learn to avoid donkey town in the first place.
They will get only x amount of curse in y amount of time and as a result don't get to spend a single second in donkey town while their lifetime curse score keeps on increasing.

Anandamide wrote:

Work on being a better eve, because the majority of griefers do so on civs and not eve camps.

It's pretty naive of you to assume that griefers only exist in non-Eve camps.
The promise of your argument is also kind of dishonest.
Can't I extrapolate from it that if I want to play without griefers, I'm forced to play Eve camps regardless of what I like or not in the game?

Booklat1 · 2019-02-10 20:54:58

sdogg2m wrote:

"You can't easily kill a line if it just so happens to have good players in it. You'll get snowballed, stabbed, shot. Even early game, it's not worth buffing berries (which are catastrophical to the balance of this game's economy) to prevent noobcamps from dying. Noobcamps should die, more cmps will be created, with better players on them."
And how would I know that x babies are "good?" By asking them, "Are you new?" I wouldn't and I shouldn't expect only good players to play in my camp. If you want to create or allow for complexity in resource management then you must have an effective deterrent for those whose goal is simply to consume resources, kill, and destroy.
I know based on what you are saying above that effectively players are the ones who are supposed to deter griefing by killing other players. Sort of a policing community for those that are law breakers but even then this is a problem as the more experienced players are going to be the law breakers. If don't want to create a stiffer punishment then you should at least filter newer players into a community (Call it NoobTown if you will) where killing others is not allowed and then the player only advances after x number of hours of playtime.
I don't know of the ideal solution, I just know the current framework of game play produces a significant amount of frustration when I have a goal for one hour and then I have to spend a significant portion of that dealing with those who want to destroy.

I agree that most griefers are actually skilled players as well, but what I am saying is not to filter bad/good players, but to count on yourself first to stop this kinda thing. Learn how to fix griefs, learn how to kill griefers, learn to deter behaviour that results in chaos or destruction. That's the only way we have stopped griefers in this game (even with curses being added, it takes smart players to not curse randomly and gather more smart people to curse a griefer). You can get help from other players, usually smart bakers, smiths or shepards -they'll have knives and usually have played for long eough to know what is griefing and what isn't.

We need to stop "guard duty" people that hoard weapons and can easily be sniped, need to stop people on horses not working and giving ordrrs, need to stop healers curing everyone, these are the people that may stand at a griefer's side when you need to kill them. We need to know that a loaded bow is one click short from an assassination (not easy to heal from) and that knives, while also important tools, should be kept in bags/aprons not in the floor. There is no ingame law enforcing that is easy to do. We only live one hour, our lives and ties to people have little importance and so does property. A griefer will find ways to subvert a society to the bottom if they aren't stopped. And the only ways to stop them are snowballs and knives (bow if you wanna make sure).

CatX · 2019-02-11 09:49:28

I've played this game a lot since I bought it a few weeks ago. At first it was addictive. I loved how there was a lot to learn in order not just to stay alive, but to help the community I was born into survive. In the lives where I was born into well functioning cities, I loved having the time to explore and learn new things.

But now I think I'm falling out of love with this game.

What really intrigued me in the beginning was how dependent everyone were on other players. OHOL felt like a game of cooperation like none I've ever seen. If we don't work together, the city will die, either from lack of resources or from a lack of daughters. In other games, the core of the gameplay is killing. Here, the core seemed to be building and working together, and I adored it.

Naturally there's been a lot of drama. And to be fair, it does create opportunity for epic stories of heroic acts and tragedies. Some lives and characters I remember better than others precisely because the game gives players the opportunity to kill each other.

But even so, I find it's very seldom killing and griefing brings a story dimension to the game. Usually, to experience griefing by others becomes tedious and boring. So my uncle, who I've never spoken to, just killed me with a bow while I was collecting soil. Or some person, I have no idea who, killed me with snowballs. Not exactly Shakespearean drama. That kind of griefing just seems random and out of place, and if it's meant to add tension, it fails. Well, perhaps the griefer is more entertained now, but I'm getting bored.

What's more, griefing creates limits for what you can do with your time while a griefer is running around. Want to learn how to make stew? Sorry, you have to fix the sheep pen in this life. Maybe the next one. Want to build a road? Sorry, you just got shot. Want to see whether this village can grow into a big city, several lives from now? Then you'd better dedicate your next lives to stopping end towers from being built.

In one life, someone said to a griefer who was running around killing everyone, "This is not a pvp game." And the griefer's reply was, "Yes, it is."

That, perhaps, is the main problem with griefing today. To some, this is a pvp game. And to those of us who love this game for it's cooperative nature, we're forced into a pvp scenario where even if you don't plan to kill anyone, eventually you have to start taking possible griefers into consideration in all aspects of the game. Because as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, communities big or small seem to be extremely vulnerable.

Right now, it seems far too easy to kill off cities and lineages by destroying pens, murder by snowballs, luring in bears, and all the innovative ways griefers find to end civilizations. And, well... I'm getting bored with it.

Laalala · 2019-03-19 20:39:37

CatX wrote:

I've played this game a lot since I bought it a few weeks ago. At first it was addictive. I loved how there was a lot to learn in order not just to stay alive, but to help the community I was born into survive. In the lives where I was born into well functioning cities, I loved having the time to explore and learn new things.
But now I think I'm falling out of love with this game.

Yup. Bought the game 5 days ago, played a few dozen games and the bloom is off the rose, tired of it. Four days ago I liked it enough to post about it to my fb but I am going to delete that entry to spare friends the frustration and wasted $.

- Tired of getting murdered. Last game, I was 57 and my daughter murdered me for my backpack. I had already given her baby all my clothes and was saying goodbye. She could not wait two minutes for me to go gracefully of old age? I thought, F.U! and ran off to the woods, died hidden behind some trees. When people turn out to be jerks I am less motivated to be supportive. Second time I have been murdered by one of my kids. It isn't fun it's just disappointing.

- I am on windows, no mods and completely frustrated with the nearsighted view and constantly getting lost if I venture out of town. One time I had a sapling cut and went out looking for a round rock to make a marker, (instead of borrowing one in use.) Had to run from a bear, got totally lost and spent the next 15 minutes trying to find my way back to the settlement before dying of snakebite age 27. What a waste of time. Setting home should be easy as the /die command (which I have never used) and being able to set a few bookmarks would be great. I like to be a forager, (have a cart, bring back the resources) but even with a home marker, step a few squares away from my cart or basket, make a few detours around hazards and I might never find it again. I have done wilderness hikes, far off the beaten path and never gotten lost. Primitive people at least had the sun, stars and normal vision to see where they were going. Give me zoom, a minimap, something to indicate relative position. The game is based on a grid, a simple x-y coordinates distance squares from birthplace at the top of the screen would be client side, no download.
Spiritually, I have visited the dead in hell dimensions that are an infinite wilderness of isolation where you cannot see more than 10m ahead and there is no sun or shadows to navigate. This game feels far too much like that, too often. Sociopath's hell... but at least there, you don't find all the "dumb ways to die" because you are already dead.

- OMG, so repetitive. Have mercy on my carpal tunnel, for I was a teen when Pong was invented and will never be able to keep up with the kids who got their first gameboy at age 5. I accept that, but it is nice when creators have some sort of casual mode for the gently handicapped. Farming bores me out of my skull, 50 minutes of repetitive stress and aching wrists. Baking is a little better, nice to feed people even in virtual but usually there are already people doing it and they are territorial. Spent hours reading wiki and forum trying to upgrade skills, did the tutorial twice, asked people to show me but at this point I have lost motivation to continue learning the tech.

Visit the next town! Yea I tried it twice, second time ran from a slaughter, got lost and decided to walk the 2k to the next town. Left as a young man, arrived with two minutes to say I made the trip before dropping dead of old age. Considered trying to tame a horse for another shot at it, but I know it is just going to run off everytime I stop to pull a carrot.

Last night I gave up trying to login after about 15 minutes, it kept failing. I took it as a sign to give it up, it has ceased to spark joy. Going back to secondlife where I can talk in complete sentences, build anything I want without starving, and not have to be or have a baby again. Even DOOM was a better creative outlet, when I got bored of playing I looked up God mode and lured the monsters into the jail cells to make a monster zoo.

CatX wrote:

Right now, it seems far too easy to kill off cities and lineages by destroying pens, murder by snowballs, luring in bears, and all the innovative ways griefers find to end civilizations. And, well... I'm getting bored with it.

I was charmed by Jason Rohrer watching the videos before buying, but after playing and reading this forum my opinion is reversed. I wonder if he watched some youtube "get rich quick" thing advising to start selling a product before it is finished, and use the excuse "Too busy creating" to bother with any sort of security beyond what protects his own wallet. Skip making any effort to ban some ip addresses of persistent offenders intent on spoiling it for everyone, pretend it is all part of the game.
Set it open source so somebody else can sort out the bugs, then get pissy when someone makes a mod he doesn't like, because it does not match his 'vision,' regardless of how much it enhances player enjoyment. Reading about the upcoming desert upgrade... I don't think he cares about player enjoyment, he is the George R.R. Martin version of "Dumb ways to die" smashing us all like beetles. Kung, kung, kung.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgemU-kMvOE

Sorry to be so negative, hopefully it was also, humorous. Really, not up for any debate. Yes I already know I am a lame gamer.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-02-10 12:51:39

One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#2 2019-02-10 16:47:38

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#3 2019-02-10 17:02:23

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#4 2019-02-10 17:21:33

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#5 2019-02-10 18:02:28

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#6 2019-02-10 18:18:44

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#7 2019-02-10 20:54:58

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#8 2019-02-11 09:49:28

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

#9 2019-03-19 20:39:37

Re: One Hour One Life - The Griefer's Game

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