An Open Letter About The New Update

Ellesanna · 2019-02-16 20:41:13

Normally, I am either completely apathetic or ecstatic about the new updates. So when I heard about how hard the new update was and how it was making the game unplayable, I was thinking back to things like the dog update that everyone was upset about and I was like 'eh, its prolly not THAT bad."

Wrong. Oh how wrong I was. So young, so naive, and way too optimistic.

Now I am not a pro by any means at all but I do like to think that my skills as a player range somewhere between average and decently good depending on the day and the circumstances. But even I, when confronted by the massively absurd amount of difficulty presented by this update, have to ask one question- Why?
I understand wanting to make your game difficult and for wanting clothes to play more of a role in OHOL but I'm sorry chief, this ain't it.
New players are already struggling enough as it to understand the mechanics of this game and now you throw another curveball at them? One that almost all experienced players of varying skill levels are struggling to work with?

Ya wanna know what just happened in the game I just played? I was born to an Eve with the surname of May and we stayed in one place for a bit after I got to be able to move around and was able to start gathering milkweed to start stuff up. In the brief three minutes of life I was able to move around, the full banana tree was eaten and I had to stop to eat four times from other sources due to my low amount of bars and even then it was not enough and I quickly died a little over the age of five. Once I am able to move around, I don't frequently die young- I usually make it into at least the late forties or early fifties without problem unless something crazy happens. Even when a town begins to starve I am able to sense it ahead of time and flee to a nearby jungle or something for refuge.

I'm sorry Jason but your game isn't fun to play anymore, not in the slightest. I was gonna hop on and play with a friend as a twin for the first time today but then this update came out and made this game unplayable. We're both doing other stuff now waiting for this horrible wreck of an update to either be over with or fixed entirely. Please for the love of god do not let this continue on much longer, I love OHOL dearly and do not desire to see it fail and want it to be a well known and enjoyed classic in the foreseeable future. An update like this being implemented makes me curious as to whether you do any play testing whatsoever before releasing an update or if you had done much testing, what made you think that this was what the majority of your player base wanted?
-Sincerely, A Frustrated Fan

Last edited by Ellesanna (2019-02-16 21:49:09)

MultiLife · 2019-02-16 21:07:17

Well, I heard this update is not done yet, so maybe it takes a nice turn in the end. Let's see.

Anyways, it seems that the meta started it all. People got bored of the "warmth, swamp, green biome" combo and got nothing out of buildings or clothes. People wanted clothes to be more important/useful as they were fed up with staring at old people's genitals (or something) and being cooked up in desert towns. People wanted a buff for buildings. So of course the quick answer is...
...make everything so hostile you need to make clothes and build buildings.
I think instead of that it should've been...
...add things to the game which make clothes SUPER GOOD (like no snake bites if clothed! Less fatal injuries if clothed!) and houses SUPER GOOD (like a bonus when inside a house so we can converse more and have parties indoors! Items don't decay indoors!).

This kind of "make stuff really harsh to make other things useful" is, to me, a bad approach. But I'm not the designer of the game so I'll just sit back and hope for the best.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-02-16 21:17:11)

Booklat1 · 2019-02-16 21:20:02

Yeah, im on the team that would rather have everyone starving than having tea parties so...

Honestly, it will be bad unless we wait for the meta to adapt. Once we're all clothed and workstations heated it'll feel like it always felt (except in swamp/grasslands/prairies)

JoshuaN · 2019-02-16 21:22:31

Ellesanna wrote:

An update like this being implemented makes me curious as to whether you do any play testing whatsoever before releasing an update or if you had done much testing, what made you think that this was what the majority of your player base wanted?
-Sincerely, A Frustrated Fan

I was curious about what testing he does too. Like if he spawns in as an eve or he just uses commands or something to spawn in clothes and fires and the like in a custom test environment. I'm sure he doesn't mean to intentionally do things that only few people want(originally was going to say nobody but there are people who like it lol), he just builds the game off his own perspective of what it should be. One of them being the change of the way biome temperatures work. There's a lot of things i feel should be different about this but we'll see how Jason builds upon these new changes. He did say he was going to make the temperature and clothing systems more sensible. I'm mostly hoping for a fix to the random perma-disconnects though.

Last edited by JoshuaN (2019-02-16 21:26:16)

Ilka · 2019-02-16 21:37:33

Ellesanna wrote:

...
-Sincerely, A Frustrated Fan

Yes, yes, and yes again, I agree completely. The game ceased to be pleasant, it only became frustrating.

MultiLife wrote:

Well, I heard this update is not done yet, so maybe it takes a nice turn in the end. Let's see.
Anyways, it seems that the meta started it all. People got bored of the "warmth, swamp, green biome" combo and got nothing out of buildings or clothes. People wanted clothes to be more important/useful as they were fed up with staring at old people's genitals (or something) and being cooked up in desert towns. People wanted a buff for buildings. So of course the quick answer is...
...make everything so hostile you need to make clothes and build buildings.
I think instead of that it should've been...
...add things to the game which make clothes SUPER GOOD (like no snake bites if clothed! Less fatal injuries if clothed!) and houses SUPER GOOD (like a bonus when inside a house so we can converse more and have parties indoors! Items don't decay indoors!).
This kind of "make stuff really harsh to make other things useful" is, to me, a bad approach. But I'm not the designer of the game so I'll just sit back and hope for the best.

As ancient wisdom says: "When the gods want to punish someone, they fulfill his wishes."
Yeah. We all expected new plants from which to make clothes .
I still do not see any use for buildings where doors must be closed. I rather see a baker yelling at everyone to close the door and finally murder the twentieth person who did not close the door. Forge needs too much space, and besides? We can make a nursery and nothing more in the building.

Last edited by Ilka (2019-02-16 21:39:10)

sinfulcliche · 2019-02-16 21:44:43

I feel exactly the same way. I tried one life and I died at the age of 12 trying to get food out of my backpack, it was too late.
I consider myself a casual player, not hardcore by any means. Another factor in the game is the so called "drama" and the social aspect, which is essential to the feel of the game. Nobody was talking. Everyone was just focused on staying alive at that point. There was a griefer who had just shot someone, I stabbed him multiple times but the game was so buggy it didn't register. He got off cooldown and ran away into the forest.
This is NOT the type of game I want to play. An eve start is hard enough, and now it's impossible for us casual players. New players have even less of a chance, just think about how many Chinese players have given up already with this update!
Ohol is my favorite game with 100+ hours. I love the game so much and as much as this pains me I don't want to play anymore. Having to eat every 10 seconds isn't fun, as is rushing around trying to do things as you'll be starving in mere seconds. I'm just really dissapointed. Sorry if this is dramatic lol

Jojigirl · 2019-02-16 21:52:18

I was just playing in a well established town and still starved because when I came back to town (I rabbit hunted my whole life) there was no food.. Everyone was working, but with everyone having to eat so much, it was hard to keep up with food. Kind of pissed me off. At least I made it to 54 and clothed quiet a few people as well as contribute a ton to pie making. It needs tweaked a tad. He can still make it harder, but not extreme. I do like the idea of clothes and building becoming more important in the game, but we can't spend our whole lives in buildings just to keep up with food production.

I had to let all my babies die, we were having a hard enough time as it was, couldn't afford more mouths to feed. Definitely will be very selective on my babies I keep and watching out for population control.. Which sucks for the people just trying to play a game, its going to be harder for them to find a mother who will keep them.

Tarr · 2019-02-16 21:58:12

This is just overall a bad week to be a new or casual player. All the new players are going to be at the mercy of better players making sure to provide adequate clothing or they'll starve en mass. All the intermediate players have to unlearn all their previous knowledge about the game as most the things they've learned are now invalid. Any guide you attempt to look at is going to either be out of date or just generally bad advice at this point. Veteran players will be fine in the long run since this just means you start making clothes as soon as you have hands.

I really do feel for anyone trying to pick up the game at the moment as this is quite the difficulty spike from just two days ago. More Eve camps are going to fail and towns are becoming mass graves (I counted 296 bodies in one towns graveyard yikes). Hopefully here in a few days things more towards being more sustainable as more towns get the clothing situation under control. Maybe take a few days break and let people catch their breath or learn how to make clothes and help your fellow player. Either way it's going to be a rocky few days until people get used to the meta.

Spoonwood · 2019-02-16 23:02:55

I setup a town on a low population server, Eve chaining. I picked the jungle deliberately, as I had avoided it so many times. I have my farm, kitchen, and smithy in a jungle. I got lucky and didn't get bit farming, smithing, or cooking. I was loving it. I spent a few lives moving mosquitoes around to some edges, and then started on building mosquito tombs. Someone popped in and helped me finish four mosquito tombs. I didn't have any dark nosajs either.

I played earlier today, and by the time of my first meal I realized something was different. I looked at the temperature and oh dear. No wonder I had to eat, because my jungle was so hot. It turned from beautiful/potentially beautiful to ugly overnight. Why did I spend so much time trapping mosquitoes when I may as well have setup somewhere else now closer to rabbits (or maybe wolves)? I still have my Eve spawn in a neighbor's town. But, I told my neighbor earlier 'curse Jason Rohrer'. Maybe I'll adapt or something... but my jungle... my beautiful jungle is now hideous.

Peremptive · 2019-02-16 23:33:28

People keep saying clothes make things better. Do they, really? They save you from the shock, but how many things take so little time, you won't reach the biome's true temperature? Clothes only shield for a while. But this is insane. If a human wears warm gear, they can go walking in the snow for hours or doing winter sports and never feel cold. It is unreasonable that your temperature will always over time revert to the temp of your environment. Before you could depend on some carrots when going for rabbits, or on finding wild berries if food was low. Now all wild food sources are eaten until quite far out.

Still, the warmer biomes have become just impossible to cross into, because their base heat is 100 and you will always revert to it over time. When you enter the jungle, how can you be better off with clothes for thirty seconds? When it is hot, the external heat isn't what kills you, its not that you are being cooked. Instead, it is your body not being able to get rid of its own heat fast enough. So someone with a full rabbit suit running around the jungle being better off than someone naked is just... its insane. Deserts being as hot as jungles, the supposed "ideal biome" when it was added, also makes no sense. People have lived for thousands of years in jungle tribes with no clothing, while living in the desert was always difficult and required desert-appropriate clothes that block the sun and allow for more airflow. Instead of jungles being maybe hotter than before and deserts requiring some equipment (equivalent to visiting snow), now within 30 seconds desert and jungle is the same as being bit by mosquito. How does this make sense?

I have been quite excited about this game, put in hundreds of hours, but It really feels hopeless playing now.

Last edited by Peremptive (2019-02-17 01:04:30)

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-02-16 23:46:37

Tarr wrote:

This is just overall a bad week to be a new or casual player. All the new players are going to be at the mercy of better players making sure to provide adequate clothing or they'll starve en mass. All the intermediate players have to unlearn all their previous knowledge about the game as most the things they've learned are now invalid. Any guide you attempt to look at is going to either be out of date or just generally bad advice at this point. Veteran players will be fine in the long run since this just means you start making clothes as soon as you have hands.
I really do feel for anyone trying to pick up the game at the moment as this is quite the difficulty spike from just two days ago. More Eve camps are going to fail and towns are becoming mass graves (I counted 296 bodies in one towns graveyard yikes). Hopefully here in a few days things more towards being more sustainable as more towns get the clothing situation under control. Maybe take a few days break and let people catch their breath or learn how to make clothes and help your fellow player. Either way it's going to be a rocky few days until people get used to the meta.

This pretty much sums up my feelings as well. If something like rabbit domestication is coming up, then the extreme play style switch will actually have more of a meaning and not just a "oh you want it spicy huh?" Type of thing, where this difficulty layer is just there for those few people that asked for it. While some of us can take the spice, it's foolish to think that everyone can take it all of the time. If there is maybe a little milk to sooth the burn we can encourage those that actually can take it with a little push.

So time will tell.

I usually change my forum quote every update, but depending on if there is or isn't a better way to combat the temp swings, I might keep it the same this time.

Bob 101 · 2019-02-17 00:06:40

God so much bitching. You know that most new players had already been trying and failing to build in the green and swamp areas.

DestinyCall · 2019-02-17 00:59:36

Spoonwood wrote:

I setup a town on a low population server, Eve chaining. I picked the jungle deliberately, as I had avoided it so many times. I have my farm, kitchen, and smithy in a jungle. I got lucky and didn't get bit farming, smithing, or cooking. I was loving it. I spent a few lives moving mosquitoes around to some edges, and then started on building mosquito tombs. Someone popped in and helped me finish four mosquito tombs. I didn't have any dark nosajs either.
I played earlier today, and by the time of my first meal I realized something was different. I looked at the temperature and oh dear. No wonder I had to eat, because my jungle was so hot. It turned from beautiful/potentially beautiful to ugly overnight. Why did I spend so much time trapping mosquitoes when I may as well have setup somewhere else now closer to rabbits (or maybe wolves)? I still have my Eve spawn in a neighbor's town. But, I told my neighbor earlier 'curse Jason Rohrer'. Maybe I'll adapt or something... but my jungle... my beautiful jungle is now hideous.

According to Jason's post, jungles are now exactly as hot (bad) as the grasslands are cold (bad). So if your jungle is located in a good spot and bug free, don't resettle in a cold zone. Try building a house instead.

Theoretically, a fully enclosed building with a closed door should now be colder inside, when located in a hot zone. No clue if this actually works, but that's what Jason said in a recent post about his vision for this update. Houses to protect from heat AND cold.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-02-17 01:00:06)

Peremptive · 2019-02-17 02:10:08

DestinyCall wrote:

According to Jason's post, jungles are now exactly as hot (bad) as the grasslands are cold (bad).

what post? that is inaccurate at least until earlier today, jungle is max temp, grassland isn't zero temp

DestinyCall · 2019-02-17 02:14:42

Peremptive wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
According to Jason's post, jungles are now exactly as hot (bad) as the grasslands are cold (bad).

what post? that is inaccurate at least until earlier today, jungle is max temp, grassland isn't zero temp

It was a post made over on the Steam forums on the "Temperature Bug?" thread.

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is absolutely no change to the following biomes (when you are naked);
--Grassland
--Prairie
--Swamp
--Rocky
So the game in those areas is no "harder". In those biomes, you burn 1 food every 4.8 seconds, just like before (when you are naked).
Also not changed:
--Polar
In that biome, you burn 1 food every 2.65 seconds, just like before. You are freezing to death, just like before.

Changed:
--Jungle
--Desert
Jungle used to be close to perfect. Now it is just as hot as the normal biomes are cold. I.e., in the jungle, you burn 1 food every 4.8 seconds, but because you are too hot, not too cold.
Desert used to be too hot, but "better" than the cold biomes (not as hot as the other biomes were cold). Now desert is as hot as the polar biome is cold. You are burning up there, and you burn 1 food every 2.65 seconds.

Perhaps you noticed that before, people weren't building houses or complete sets of clothing or heating systems. Even an advanced civ would have airplanes, but everyone would still be naked with no buildings.
Why?
Because settling on the edge of the desert was "perfect" and made buildings and clothing irrelevant.

That was never my intention. There was never supposed to be a perfect biome. I mean, how stupid would that be? A perfect place to settle, where life was easy? Everyone would figure that out and settle there.
The desert was supposed to be too hot, but I never made it hot enough, and the boundary blending made it even better (which I wasn't expecting).
The jungle was supposed to be perfect, but mosquitoes were supposed to balance that out. Unfortunately, they were too easy to deal with.

Clothing was also a pain before, because it would make you too hot in the desert or Jungle. So people just did without.

Now clothing is always beneficial, everywhere. It slows down temperature change. So when you walk into the desert, it helps you instead of hurting you (keeps you from getting hot too quickly).
Now buildings are always beneficial. A closed-door building will keep your fire heat contained in a cold biome, but also will keep you cooler in a hot biome.

So, yes, if you are used to exploiting the desert boundary, the game just got way harder.
But if you weren't satisfied doing that, then the game is no harder than before, and a lot easier in other ways (clothing, buildings, and fire help way more than they used to).

Peremptive · 2019-02-17 02:18:17

The jungle temp must have been changed later, that was not the case earlier in the day. I for sure saw my temp at max simply for being in the jungle. With this guy I expect anything. I mean he says in the post that players taking advantage of temp averaging, what he coded the game to do with your temp with his own fingers, wasn't what he wanted. So he didn't want what he did last time, maybe he didn't do what he wanted again this time with jungle temp. I will check tomorrow.

ZERO word in the post about the game-breaking temp shock that kills you in seconds, just because you could be walking down a road made yesterday that crosses a few biomes.

Brilliant.

Last edited by Peremptive (2019-02-17 02:24:40)

LucidFugue · 2019-02-17 03:52:28

Well, he said temperature blending was an unintended consequence, so the shock change from biome to biome accords with removing temperature averaging. He can code something in without knowing exactly how its gonna turn out.

pein · 2019-02-17 07:24:46

jason sometimes tries to make equations with the same variables and expects it to be more complex
you either throw the ball in the basket, or put the basket on the ball. it wont be much of a difference

he added some nice features like the rooms not just warming up, they can even cool you down, also clothing is kinda a thermos for a coffee, keeps it consumable
but in the meantime he adds a lot of things which made things harder since the deserts were introduced

im sorry but no yum bonus will help on the loss of things like regrowing milkweed

make clothes matter? well, thread matters, ropes matter
i do make clothes for myself, but i still rather live my life naked and make a sheep pen, than make everyone clothing and delay composting for 5 generations
now you spend more tiem with clothes, or arguing about them, or getting upset that other kids got and you dont
and you got to travel much further than before to get some
peopel dont like travelling and dont like depleting resources

generally games are easy to learn, hard to master
they start off with easy levels, go harder and harder

your mom raises you, you got a few seconds to figure out what to do, naked, slower, with a tiny body . sounds like you play against the raid boss and then you can play the first levels.

WalrusesConquer · 2019-02-17 08:40:03

I mean I like the update. If you have stew you can manage

Spoonwood · 2019-02-17 12:54:42

DestinyCall wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I setup a town on a low population server, Eve chaining. I picked the jungle deliberately, as I had avoided it so many times. I have my farm, kitchen, and smithy in a jungle. I got lucky and didn't get bit farming, smithing, or cooking. I was loving it. I spent a few lives moving mosquitoes around to some edges, and then started on building mosquito tombs. Someone popped in and helped me finish four mosquito tombs. I didn't have any dark nosajs either.
I played earlier today, and by the time of my first meal I realized something was different. I looked at the temperature and oh dear. No wonder I had to eat, because my jungle was so hot. It turned from beautiful/potentially beautiful to ugly overnight. Why did I spend so much time trapping mosquitoes when I may as well have setup somewhere else now closer to rabbits (or maybe wolves)? I still have my Eve spawn in a neighbor's town. But, I told my neighbor earlier 'curse Jason Rohrer'. Maybe I'll adapt or something... but my jungle... my beautiful jungle is now hideous.

According to Jason's post, jungles are now exactly as hot (bad) as the grasslands are cold (bad). So if your jungle is located in a good spot and bug free, don't resettle in a cold zone. Try building a house instead.
Theoretically, a fully enclosed building with a closed door should now be colder inside, when located in a hot zone. No clue if this actually works, but that's what Jason said in a recent post about his vision for this update. Houses to protect from heat AND cold.

Thanks for the suggestions. I do appreciate them. I do have a bunch of butt logs and another neighbor than Frost kindly gave me three axes. I know how to grow trees also and have a good water supply (though I don't have a diesel water pump). There still exist drawbacks now.

1. As I understand Jason's post, wood flooring and walls will have the same cooling effect as a heating effect. But if you're cold, then heating things up with a fire would make things better. So unless fire with flooring and a room will overheat you (I haven't tested this... and I think it varies with room size), fire comes as the last component of heating yourself up. That's fine for a cold spot, I think. But, for a warmer spot, I think the equivalent of fire is snow. Importing snow is slow because of how fast you move with a snowball. And snow is less useful than fire. So, even a good jungle doesn't seem as good as a colder neutral biome now.

2. Some clothing will decay if I clothe every body part. I will need new clothing every 5 hours, which might mean two play sessions, if I say take a 5 hour break. I really hadn't planned on that. It also will slow my progress with other things.

3. My farm... my farm! How in the world do I build a good house for my farm?! Even if I put walls around my farm, which would limit it's size or require several walls, wood flooring simply won't work as well as the near perfect temperature jungle as before, I think, because the ratio of wood floored tiles to unfloored tiles will be small, especially in comparison to the ratio of my kitchen or smithy. Farming can be relaxing in comparison to cooking or smithing, since there's no fire that will burn out on me if I don't plan things out well.

4. I will reiterate I built mosquito tombs. So, now it's like any real jungle needs some walls for animal pens, for the smithy, for the kitchen, flooring for all of those AND tombs for the mosquitoes. That means that jungles in general need more resources than other areas. And it isn't like rubber can get used to make walls.

Thanks for your suggestions though. I do appreciate your encouragement and you trying to help.

DestinyCall · 2019-02-17 16:27:05

Yeah, I agree. I think jungles are at a significant disadvantage now, compared with cold biomes, whereas before they were potentially the perfect spot. And I'm not at all confident the changes that were made to buildings and clothing are working as intended. Heat shock is another problem since if you position your stuff in a hot spot, you will need to travel from hot to cold for many things. I was hoping you could make it work, but this update is a real game-changer. Literally.

Regarding clothes ... there are some solutions for longterm solo play. Fur and wool items decay, but animal hides, reed skirts, and some hats do not. The best non-decaying clothing for you would be strawhat, reed skirt and mouflon hide. For shoes, I like fruit boots, but you could also use rabbit shoes. Both of these footwear decay, unfortunately. Old boots do not decay, but they do not insulate either. If you use fruitboots, you have hands-free emergency food. Very nice idea now.

Unfortunately, backpacks decay and there is no good alternative. However, therabbit hides do not decay. So you can spend one life gathering a lot of rabbits, bake them into pies, then pile up the skins for later use. Just don't sew new packs or clothing until you need it. Aprons also do not decay, but the lack of insulation is now a pretty major drawback. Best use for wool, even so. If you make wool clothing, keep in mind that dying the wool will reset the decay timer. It won't last forever, but you might get some extra uses if you time things properly.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-02-17 17:41:48)

karltown_veteran · 2019-02-18 14:35:11

This update makes it pretty hard to both start a camp and maintain a village. Even fully clothed I have noticed that your hunger drops quickly.. for those of us who want to be warm as possible and have the skills to make warm clothes, maybe you could do a long sleeved woolen shirt (huge ball of yarn + small ball of yarn?)
Maybe the purpose of this update was Jason telling us to stop acting like idiots and put some damn clothes on. There are a lot less nude-butts in towns now, although it does give rpers an opportunity to be a scandalous old man/woman and strip

BladeWoods · 2019-02-18 18:16:32

I remember before the desert exploit was a thing you had to be a very experienced player to have a chance at eve starts. It's like that now again. Not the end of the world.

Peremptive · 2019-02-18 19:21:34

nowhere in his words about this update, does he mentions that clothes make you overheat in the jungle. the only things he says are that jungles are just as bad as grasslands, and that "Clothing was also a pain before, because it would make you too hot in the desert or Jungle. So people just did without." which makes one assume that this was changed. How naive.

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