Shift + Delete Does Not Seem to Cause Instant Death at Any Age

Spoonwood · 2019-02-23 14:30:09

It seems that shift + delete with the Awbz mod does not seem to cause instant death at any age any more. I know that I have seen other people kill themselves by releasing a bear before. People almost surely will be more inclined to grief towns also. I can't tell why this change happened.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-02-23 14:35:35)

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-23 15:04:05

This thread will explain: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5381

Spoonwood · 2019-02-23 16:30:12

I don't see how that explains things. It doesn't explain what he changed, it just says what he considered. Also, I don't see Jason considering the effects on adults who want to end the game quickly. The thread also doesn't include that if 'shift + delete' or some other option doesn't allow for instant death, that more bears will end up over the map, since death by hungry bear can be the quickest way out.

I also wouldn't consider releasing a bear to die griefing. If that's all one does. It's not like the intent lies in killing off a settlement, other people, or intentionally making other people's progress more difficult. The intent just comes as trying to end one's game state. Or at least it could be.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-02-23 16:32:57)

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-23 16:40:34

When the server receives a malformed message from the client, it kills you. Awbz' client exploited this to allow you to kill yourself at will; when you press shift-del, Awbz' client sends the server a malformed message, and the server kills you.

The malformed-message-kill behavior was reported here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/181 , and Jason responded that this was deliberate. I later noted in that same bug report that it was being used by Awbz' client to circumvent Jason's previously planned behavior for /die.

Thundersen raised the Awbz client "exploit" in a separate bug report, here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/194 , and in that bug report referred back to my comments in the initial bug report.

Jason finally got around to considering whether that should be considered a bug or a feature, and brought the question back to the forum, here: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5381 , and in that post he referred back to Thundersen's bug report which referred to my comment in 0ArturkA's bug report which discussed the root cause of the whole thing.

After discussion in Jason's thread, Jason decided on a new set of semantics for insta-death, and in the process changed the server so that it would disconnect rather than kill when it gets a malformed message, which disabled the Awbz client's insta-kill feature.

Spoonwood · 2019-02-23 16:56:39

I saw Jason talking about /die working without the mother. That works. But, I tried using /die as an Eve on a low population server, and that doesn't work either. I spawned inside someone's city walls as an Eve (they have a wall and locked doors... I would guess that they might have keys). I think I tried to hop in with them yesterday, but they didn't want me around, and, of course, that's their choice. I didn't find any wild animals around to kill me either (because why would they leave deadly animals around inside of their castle?). Is there some way to kill yourself instantly now that I don't know about? Or has Jason decided to reduce player control, especially for people trying to leave and not bother other people, and insists that this makes things "better" for the game?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-02-23 16:58:21)

jasonrohrer · 2019-02-23 17:30:23

We'll see how this shakes out.

But no, DC, or any other way to force adult death, is not part of my vision for the game (see discussion of prisons).

The trapped Eve thing is a pretty extreme edge case.

Spoonwood · 2019-02-23 17:59:24

jasonrohrer wrote:

But no, DC, or any other way to force adult death, is not part of my vision for the game (see discussion of prisons).

Then you need to rethink your vision, if you're being honest and I question that, because there exist more than a dozen servers for the game. Player's had easy control over their own lives before, or could with the Awbz mod. Now they don't have as much control. People CAN still kill their own self inside of prisons. That's kind of why mental institutions have people watching their patients at all times. It isn't like someone who makes up their mind to end his or her life will need a year to kill their own self.

Also, I seriously doubt that your opinion that removing instant death as a good choice comes as close to the majority opinion or people playing now or in the future. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if less than 5% of people sided with removing instant death controllable by the player comes as a good idea.

Dodge · 2019-02-23 18:04:19

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
But no, DC, or any other way to force adult death, is not part of my vision for the game (see discussion of prisons).
Then you need to rethink your vision, if you're being honest and I question that, because there exist more than a dozen servers for the game. Player's had easy control over their own lives before, or could with the Awbz mod. Now they don't have as much control. People CAN still kill their own self inside of prisons. That's kind of why mental institutions have people watching their patients at all times. It isn't like someone who makes up their mind to end his or her life will need a year to kill their own self.
Also, I seriously doubt that your opinion that removing instant death as a good choice comes as close to the majority opinion or people playing now or in the future. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if less than 5% of people sided with removing instant death controllable by the player comes as a good idea.

How hard is it to starve in this game?

Jk Howling · 2019-02-23 18:16:00

Dodge wrote:

How hard is it to starve in this game?

b-but starving takes time! I want to die now, not wait almost an entire minute! -Or even two!

Seriously though, just find a cold patch and starve yourself out. Are people genuinely too impatient to wait 60 seconds for their hunger gauge to go down..? I get the whole "its one hour one life we dont have much time" thing, but that's irrelevant if you're trying to kill yourself off lmao.

You can wait, surely. If you're so impatient, make a quick round through the village to say goodbyes. Or just doodle something in a noitebook, fiddle with your phone, minimize the tab and do something else for a couple minute.. You still have control over your deaths my dude, it's just not instantaneous anymore, and it never should've been. The only reason you had that as an option was because of an exploit.

Last edited by Jk Howling (2019-02-23 18:17:11)

Spoonwood · 2019-02-23 18:30:03

Jk Howling wrote:

Dodge wrote:
How hard is it to starve in this game?
b-but starving takes time! I want to die now, not wait almost an entire minute! -Or even two!
Seriously though, just find a cold patch and starve yourself out. Are people genuinely too impatient to wait 60 seconds for their hunger gauge to go down..? I get the whole "its one hour one life we dont have much time" thing, but that's irrelevant if you're trying to kill yourself off lmao.
You can wait, surely. If you're so impatient, make a quick round through the village to say goodbyes. Or just doodle something in a noitebook, fiddle with your phone, minimize the tab and do something else for a couple minute.. You still have control over your deaths my dude, it's just not instantaneous anymore, and it never should've been. The only reason you had that as an option was because of an exploit.

Starving takes time. Dying takes time now. For no good reason. You haven't provided any sort of reason for this change. You've just labeled it an "exploit". Thus, anyone who wants to die becomes inconvenienced. Impatience is a problem if you're trying to kill yourself in real life, because if you wait, you might change your mind. Additionally, it could be longer than a minute, even in a cold zone, because of the yum bonus. Maybe someone wants to yum as much he or she can in a life, and that's his or her only goal. Having to wait then takes more time.

Wandering around the village? They might feed me and keep me alive. Jason has said it's possible to feed someone their entire life, and he is correct on that. Haven't you ever seen an afk mom that the village keeps around for popping out babies?

And no, it's not control if I don't have control over the time. Control over own's life is having the opportunity to choose when one dies.

And no, it was not an exploit. It was because of a programmer's *fair* use of the old system. Note that the game can get modded.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-02-23 18:31:16)

wondaland · 2019-02-23 19:26:04

Spoonwood wrote:

Jk Howling wrote:
Dodge wrote:
How hard is it to starve in this game?
b-but starving takes time! I want to die now, not wait almost an entire minute! -Or even two!
Seriously though, just find a cold patch and starve yourself out. Are people genuinely too impatient to wait 60 seconds for their hunger gauge to go down..? I get the whole "its one hour one life we dont have much time" thing, but that's irrelevant if you're trying to kill yourself off lmao.
You can wait, surely. If you're so impatient, make a quick round through the village to say goodbyes. Or just doodle something in a noitebook, fiddle with your phone, minimize the tab and do something else for a couple minute.. You still have control over your deaths my dude, it's just not instantaneous anymore, and it never should've been. The only reason you had that as an option was because of an exploit.
Starving takes time. Dying takes time now. For no good reason. You haven't provided any sort of reason for this change. You've just labeled it an "exploit". Thus, anyone who wants to die becomes inconvenienced. Impatience is a problem if you're trying to kill yourself in real life, because if you wait, you might change your mind. Additionally, it could be longer than a minute, even in a cold zone, because of the yum bonus. Maybe someone wants to yum as much he or she can in a life, and that's his or her only goal. Having to wait then takes more time.
Wandering around the village? They might feed me and keep me alive. Jason has said it's possible to feed someone their entire life, and he is correct on that. Haven't you ever seen an afk mom that the village keeps around for popping out babies?
And no, it's not control if I don't have control over the time. Control over own's life is having the opportunity to choose when one dies.
And no, it was not an exploit. It was because of a programmer's *fair* use of the old system. Note that the game can get modded.

Just press esc then % problem solved that takes a fraction of the time it does to starve

Alternatively find a desert, snow, both mosquitos. There are plenty of quick ways to die.

Many agreed with this change because it fix the problem of mothers having their birth cooldown triggered.

I'm not even going to address your coments on suicide except to say it probably isn't and shouldn't be an integral feature of this game.

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-23 19:30:39

i disagree with letting people just die whenever. It's pretty damn fast to starve, or go step on a rattle snake, or whatever. I can't think of any good reason why a person doesnt have 1-2 minutes of not playing to die, but has time for another 60 minute game.

This is a really limited need. This game may be challenging, but dying isn't.

Booklat1 · 2019-02-23 19:50:35

Dodge wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
But no, DC, or any other way to force adult death, is not part of my vision for the game (see discussion of prisons).
Then you need to rethink your vision, if you're being honest and I question that, because there exist more than a dozen servers for the game. Player's had easy control over their own lives before, or could with the Awbz mod. Now they don't have as much control. People CAN still kill their own self inside of prisons. That's kind of why mental institutions have people watching their patients at all times. It isn't like someone who makes up their mind to end his or her life will need a year to kill their own self.
Also, I seriously doubt that your opinion that removing instant death as a good choice comes as close to the majority opinion or people playing now or in the future. Really, I wouldn't be surprised if less than 5% of people sided with removing instant death controllable by the player comes as a good idea.

How hard is it to starve in this game?

spoon contradicting two weeks worth of their own posts

seriously, taking your own life prevents other from punishing you, whichmakes griefers incapable of suicide missions. insta death is bullshit and also not so easy to do irl

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-02-23 19:53:49)

Peremptive · 2019-02-23 20:17:21

how can you consider killing a griefer punishment? If they were going to suicide anyways what is the difference, that you stabbed them? that makes no sense.

basically jason wanted to give mothers a way to not lose their cooldown which means disabling the way the mod killed you, so that you have to use /die as a baby, which means they should have time to pick you up. Not sure if closing the game will kill you or not.

spoon isn't contradicting themselves, this removes more options from the game

Last edited by Peremptive (2019-02-23 20:17:54)

sdogg2m · 2019-02-23 20:28:58

Got stuck in Eve hell and at first I thought this update was horrible but I actually like it and see it as a benefit.

The reason why I was stuck in eve hell is because I tried to be born in as a female in a specific clan. Since I spawned as a male, I shift+del but used the /die command in other camps. I, then, was eve for 12 lives in a row. I thought "this is boring" but then I realized the usefulness of this update.

Before I would work to spawn in as a female because I knew it was necessary to keep the camp going as new camps would be heavily tilted toward new player play but now I realize more experienced players are forced to stick with these camps in order to avoid eve hell. I vote for sticking with this. I can actually have relief in playing young camps as a boy now.

Booklat1 · 2019-02-23 20:29:09

Peremptive wrote:

how can you consider killing a griefer punishment? If they were going to suicide anyways what is the difference, that you stabbed them? that makes no sense.

basically jason wanted to give mothers a way to not lose their cooldown which means disabling the way the mod killed you, so that you have to use /die as a baby, which means they should have time to pick you up. Not sure if closing the game will kill you or not.
spoon isn't contradicting themselves, this removes more options from the game

who anything about killing? I think the idea is pushing curses and possibly prisons, isnt it?

Whatever · 2019-02-23 20:33:56

someone pls tell me how to make a prisoner, i want to try it out but dont know how

Last edited by Whatever (2019-02-23 20:48:13)

Spoonwood · 2019-02-23 20:58:23

wondaland wrote:

Just press esc then % problem solved that takes a fraction of the time it does to starve

Thanks for trying to help. I would like to say thank you, if only it worked that way. Here was my test. I went on server4, escaped out of the game and went back in. When I came back, I was in the exact same spot and once I saw my pip meter, it was three pips down.

I did a second test. Again on server4. If you watch your temperature meter when you start as an Eve, you have mid temperature no matter your biome. It's just like you stood over a fire with clothes for a bit. The game slowly adjusts your temperature to the biome that you are in, provided that you don't change the temperature type that you started in. If you do, then you will get temperature shocked (for example, if you change from a grassland to a swamp, you will cool off slowly just as if you had stayed in a grassland... if you change from a grassland to a desert, you get temperature shocked) In the second test when I came back the second time, my temperature was almost at the grassland temperature, instead of being at mid temperature. So, I had two means to tell that I hadn't died upon disconnection.

Additionally, starvation time varies depending on one's temperature.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-02-23 21:06:13)

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-23 21:11:35

Esc + % to quit the game does not kill you, it disconnects you. While disconnected you'll eventually starve and die, unless someone is feeding you. But if you reconnect before dying, you'll simply rejoin your life still in progress.

If you disconnect, you can spawn a new life without waiting for your old one to die by manually choosing a different server to connect to. You'll still be alive on the original server, but you'll get a new life on the new server.

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-23 21:18:09

I appreciate the aesthetic Jason is shooting for by enforcing "if you want to die, you have to actually die".

I also appreciate the convenience of just dying right away when you decide to die rather than having to wait around. It's like waiting in line at the grocery store, and all you're buying is a pack of gum, and there's just one person in front of you, but they're paying with a check but they can't find their checkbook and then can't find their ID and then realize the total is more than they have in their account so they ask the cashier to take a few items out of the bag and and and and and AND YOU JUST WANT TO BUY A FRICKIN' PACK OF GUM

These two things are in conflict with each other. But IMHO the annoyance is small enough that I'm not going to ding Jason for dedication to his aesthetic. Much. Maybe a little.

I'm just saying. Convenience is nice, you know? And frustrating things are frustrating.

Jk Howling · 2019-02-23 21:20:32

Spoonwood wrote:

Jk Howling wrote:
Dodge wrote:
How hard is it to starve in this game?
b-but starving takes time! I want to die now, not wait almost an entire minute! -Or even two!
Seriously though, just find a cold patch and starve yourself out. Are people genuinely too impatient to wait 60 seconds for their hunger gauge to go down..? I get the whole "its one hour one life we dont have much time" thing, but that's irrelevant if you're trying to kill yourself off lmao.
You can wait, surely. If you're so impatient, make a quick round through the village to say goodbyes. Or just doodle something in a noitebook, fiddle with your phone, minimize the tab and do something else for a couple minute.. You still have control over your deaths my dude, it's just not instantaneous anymore, and it never should've been. The only reason you had that as an option was because of an exploit.
Starving takes time. Dying takes time now. For no good reason. You haven't provided any sort of reason for this change. You've just labeled it an "exploit". Thus, anyone who wants to die becomes inconvenienced. Impatience is a problem if you're trying to kill yourself in real life, because if you wait, you might change your mind. Additionally, it could be longer than a minute, even in a cold zone, because of the yum bonus. Maybe someone wants to yum as much he or she can in a life, and that's his or her only goal. Having to wait then takes more time.
Wandering around the village? They might feed me and keep me alive. Jason has said it's possible to feed someone their entire life, and he is correct on that. Haven't you ever seen an afk mom that the village keeps around for popping out babies?
And no, it's not control if I don't have control over the time. Control over own's life is having the opportunity to choose when one dies.
And no, it was not an exploit. It was because of a programmer's *fair* use of the old system. Note that the game can get modded.

Yes, it was an exploit. Do you know what an exploit is? It's the use of a bug or flaw in a game to the player's advantage. Having a player immediately die at the press of a button was never an intended feature, nor were the means of it through official means. The fact that mods are allowed or that it was 'fair use' is irrelevant to the definition.

Wandering about the village will very rarely result in someone feeding you. The only time I ever see people intentionally force-feed other players is when they go completely still and are blatantly afk. There is the very, very occasional player who'll run around feeding anyone and everyone- usually to clear a plate or bowl, more rarely just because they're a noob. This isn't common occurrence, however. Keep moving. Most players won't purposely target you for forcefeeding if they don't think you're afk.

Starving and dying ALWAYS took time. They're SUPPOSED to take time. You're just upset because you got used to abusing an exploit and the creator finally took notice of this, didn't like it, and fixed it. I'm sorry for your loss, but jesus christ you're getting butthurt over having to take several minutes at most instead of insta-dying.

It's not that big of a deal. In MOST scenarios, you can starve in 1-3 minutes. In MOST scenarios, you can find a wild animal to speed things along. Dying isn't hard. Dying was never hard. Instantaneous death was never an intended feature. The only reason it was implemented for babies was because runners were causing negative effects on their mothers.

DestinyCall · 2019-02-23 21:23:23

Whatever wrote:

someone pls tell me how to make a prisoner, i want to try it out but dont know how

If you do not know how, you are not ready to bear the burden of knowing.

Do not be impatient, my child. This knowledge comes in time.

Whatever · 2019-02-23 21:31:25

DestinyCall wrote:

Whatever wrote:
someone pls tell me how to make a prisoner, i want to try it out but dont know how
If you do not know how, you are not ready to bear the burden of knowing.
Do not be impatient, my child. This knowledge comes in time.

xD

I know that you can feed people and put them inside a room, but can you feed the from outside of the room?

wondaland · 2019-02-23 21:34:20

Spoonwood wrote:

wondaland wrote:
Just press esc then % problem solved that takes a fraction of the time it does to starve
Thanks for trying to help. I would like to say thank you, if only it worked that way. Here was my test. I went on server4, escaped out of the game and went back in. When I came back, I was in the exact same spot and once I saw my pip meter, it was three pips down.
I did a second test. Again on server4. If you watch your temperature meter when you start as an Eve, you have mid temperature no matter your biome. It's just like you stood over a fire with clothes for a bit. The game slowly adjusts your temperature to the biome that you are in, provided that you don't change the temperature type that you started in. If you do, then you will get temperature shocked (for example, if you change from a grassland to a swamp, you will cool off slowly just as if you had stayed in a grassland... if you change from a grassland to a desert, you get temperature shocked) In the second test when I came back the second time, my temperature was almost at the grassland temperature, instead of being at mid temperature. So, I had two means to tell that I hadn't died upon disconnection.
Additionally, starvation time varies depending on one's temperature.

I see, sorry I must fiddle with other things giving my character enough time to starve when I do this. My mistake.

On a side note some form of poisonous plant could be interesting like purple berries? Could have it give you food my make your temp rise to desert level. Hmm probably too griefable.

Last edited by wondaland (2019-02-23 21:37:57)

Spoonwood · 2019-02-23 23:22:03

Jk Howling wrote:

Yes, it was an exploit. Do you know what an exploit is? It's the use of a bug or flaw in a game to the player's advantage.

Shift + delete was neither a bug, nor a flaw in Jason's design. It wasn't part of Jason's design to begin with. So, using shift + delete was not an exploit by that definition. Additionally, I don't agree with your definition of exploit. An exploit has to come as *unfair*. Really, in computer games, since ultimately you play by means of a program, which is not human, there is no unfairness in any tactics in any game. Neither you nor anyone else exploits a computer program, since it is an inanimate object, and there is no way to be fair to inanimate object. So all talk of an "exploit" in a computer game doesn't make sense.

Jk Howling wrote:

Having a player immediately die at the press of a button was never an intended feature, nor were the means of it through official means.

On the contrary, it was an intended feature of Awbz.

Jk Howling wrote:

The fact that mods are allowed or that it was 'fair use' is irrelevant to the definition.

No, because for exploitation to exist, there has to exist an unfair use.

Jk Howling wrote:

Starving and dying ALWAYS took time.

No, dying did not always take time. At least no more time than pushing "shift + delete". Also, starving can be rather quick if you decide to starve when your pip count is low.

Jk Howling wrote:

They're SUPPOSED to take time.

Suicide can be quick in real life. There exists every reason that suicide should be quick in the game.

Jk Howling wrote:

You're just upset because you got used to abusing an exploit and the creator finally took notice of this, didn't like it, and fixed it. I'm sorry for your loss, but jesus christ you're getting butthurt over having to take several minutes at most instead of insta-dying.

No, because there is no way to abuse a computer program. Computers are not human, nor have any sentience, and thus incapable of getting abused. Similarly, there is no way of abusing a computer program, such as a game.

Jk Howling wrote:

Instantaneous death was never an intended feature.

I fully believe it was an intended feature of Awbz's mod. Whether Awbz chooses to try to make that feature happen again or not, comes as Awbz's choice, or Jason can choose to try to make that feature happen again. Or someone else. It isn't like other mods aren't possible. I've heard from people say that they have some mod that make mosquitoes more visible, though I don't know what mod he or she uses. I believe that all mods fall under fair use, since the program is open source.

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Shift + Delete Does Not Seem to Cause Instant Death at Any Age

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