Buildings and Flooring Aren't All That Efficient

Spoonwood · 2019-02-22 09:56:04

There's another post here along the similar lines by pein: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 819#p46819 There's a post on reddit about a bakery building not being worth it: https://www.reddit.com/r/onehouronelife … _building/

I have now seen at least three villages on stream with a newcomen pump but don't have all that many buildings or enough flooring for an outdoor 8x8 box (which only works for one of the squares... see CrazyEddie's post: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … p?id=5319). Maybe a nursery, though I saw one without a nursery. These settlements looked to be doing alright. One the discord someone told me that it was easier to make a diesel engine than to make a proper building (of course... that assumes that one knows how to make a diesel engine, but still).

Here's something else to consider. Cooking, composting, farming, animal tending, forging, making rubber, or using a newcomen multipurpose engine can all get done once you hit three. A cart can't get picked up until later. So, unless you want to move slowly getting the materials, building construction probably doesn't make sense to get started early in life, while other projects can get started early in life. Building a 6x6 room (6x6 as the interior) with floors everywhere requires 31 walls, at least one door (each wall structure has length 8), and 36 floors. 36 floors is 36 butt logs, plus any butt logs to make a first or second mallet if the first one breaks. It's a rope and two boards for each door. That rope and those boards could have gone to another bucket or to another box, sledge, or cart. The same goes for all those butt logs. The butt logs could have also gotten used for firewood (though that's kind of against my taste). If you build out of stone, that's more shovel and chisel uses and they will break. If you build out of adobe, then you might use a shovel a bit in a swamp, or you might not. But, either way that requires plaster which requires plaster which needs fired in a forge, which uses some kindling that could have gone to cooking instead, and it also requires water which could have gone to supporting crops instead. Thus, at the bare minimum buildings with floors need a significant amount of time to pay off.

Even with a nursery, a large slow fire can heat a baby enough. So, even that I find questionable.

Maybe there exist some exceptions to the rule, but I think it will take a lot for a building to pay off.

Greep · 2019-02-22 11:02:17

Flooring makes sense. But rooms nope. Someone posted a screen of our jungle arena on One City Server, and the stone floors cool it off quite nicely. Bear rug wooden floors ought to be great in the open on neutral biomes as well.

yaira · 2019-02-22 11:23:28

nope
flooring doesn't help without a fire. bear rug neither

it's just as same as being outside naked

Last edited by yaira (2019-02-22 11:24:01)

Greep · 2019-02-22 11:36:41

As in not at all, or small amount? When the arrow is that low, it's hard to detect even a sizeable %

Edit: I'm confused, doesn't your own post here contradict that?
http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewto … 260#p46260

The stone floored jungle arena is bigger than 8x8 and has no fire. Or is it just cooling that works?

Last edited by Greep (2019-02-22 11:40:29)

pein · 2019-02-22 11:46:14

6x6 inner is 8x8 ourer, is 6x4+4 walls, minus doors, walls meet on corner so each 2 wall has same corner
easiest to calc inner side wall legths and add 4 to it

i tested airspace on eve run, technically if you place a spiral of walls, your airspace is smaller
has little to no effect from a fire, or from the egg cooking, no floor and doors? airspace doesn't matter
havent really tested the insulation bonus but on a picture i seen a 1x5 room where the player is out of the fire range, so only the room and no clothes
that was perfect heat while the other parts way too hot
thing is, that means a fire heats 5 tiles to perfect heat if you try to find the sweet spot of size, that is low, especially that you need to stay out of fire range
should i say that bigger room spreads it even less?
outside the radius of fire is spread evenly
technically you can calculate as fixed result
so 0.5 is perfect
that means a fire provides 2.5 heat divided per tiles number as spread bonus on top of radiant heat. yes, each fire 5 tiles. now you can compress multiple fire in a side then you stand outside of their range which is minimum 4, then the rest of tiles will be medium (that's an 5x3 attached to an 1x4 with 3 fires and closed door)
i don't have exact numbers but the radiant heat goes like 0.7 center, 0.4 straight sides 0.35? diagonals
even on open, 2 fires can make perfect temp for nakeds

third option is kindling each time the coals go out, which is like 30 sec, unsustainable, maybe if you plant 120 trees then ok
fourth option? 1x1 room with a hot flat rock is like 0.6

the top is a tube where limit the naked player movement(fencelock good too), to force into perfect spot and maybe store firewood other side (or put the block one to left and store food feeding an afk girl

the bottom what you can do with an axe on a camp overrun by 30 people (shouldn't be an issue to find iron, cut trees and bring it back)

this two solutions are equal but the setting up is way too different
so any other way to make a good room temp?
no, if away from fire, wont be close to 0.5
if close to fire, then the effect goes max 4-5 tiles away, because you are on your center of an 8x8 "aura"
so if the fire is outside of this, you are outside of it
so then optimize the slightly cold tiles around fire?
sure. 0.4 needs 0.1 bonus, that's 25 tiles enclosed. that's 5x5 with a fire anywhere except on sides (so it has 4 sides)
that's what insulation is optimized for by chance
do clothes matter? yeah, stay one tile further in clothes

jason said he wanted that rooms matter, clothes matter, tiles matter, each 1/3

why don't they matter? fire radiant heat is much stronger than all of the above, in a decent size room

how to make it matter?
nerf the fire radiant heat, that would affect everyone and really wont make the game better
amplify the fire by a fireplace, which is like a wall tile, removes the radiant heat but gives much stronger overall balanced heat trough room
this would limit the size of the room if the heat is calculated based on 1 firewood per 4 min to output (as of now cause you either go for tiny room which is long or small room where you get a lot of different options based on clothing)
you got to be a math expert to know where to stand based on what clothing
to not make one sided, we need some different cost to tile heating, so we can calculate that based on room size and needs
for example 1 piece of firewood heats 7x7 tiles to medium for 4 minutes, that's fair
now if you want bigger room, then it would heat it for 3.5 minutes or so
if smaller, heats it for 8 minutes but obviously less space

what players aim for? a well balanced medium heat inside a room which you spent hours to build so its really an improvement
what they don't aim for: a room with 15 different heat zones where some are hot, some are cold
the solution is still "go closer to the fire"

other options: make babies a new minigame (this hit me thinking about what if whole room would be medium but the fire would be way hotter in a room)
he said he wants to make it harder: heat based baby growth
they would use heat as input, and their growth would be faster if kept in good temp and slower if they are cold/too hot
not from current numbers, maybe instead of flat 3.5 where doesn't matter if your mom thinks you are the most precious thing, and your uncle makes you a fire, or your mom barely picks you up after you clamp FFFFFFFFFFFF
change that number from 3 to 4.5 minutes. 2.5 and 5 would be quite wild i guess

make clothes matter: half the food bar naked. each clothing adds empty squares to your food bar
scale the foods accordingly. no clothes, you cannot eat high nutrition food efficiently. you need to eat a lot of small bites.
with clothes you become bigger and can eat once in much lower time frame.
i think low end is fine but high end could be a bit better in case of full clothes. also low wend clothing need to be easier for this or people would kill for clothes, except they couldn cause they starve right away

if we talk about things that matter: making a desert camp where people were forced in between 0-3 to 0.7 at least and a lot of medium heat which was easy to see visually on map or a jungle where you were almost perfect without thinking about where to stand right now (stand on the green tile)
that was something simple with benefits that matter

this overly complex calculations with minimal bonuses in exchange of several requirements arent really worth it

and the open door, omg the open door
you can heat an igloo with a candle
indians used fur tents and technically closed itself by the gravity
30 people cant keep doors closed by each time clicking on it which cancels out for everyone else, i really don want to deal with this kind of things
i build a room perfectly then someone keeps the door open and everything is ruined for good

Last edited by pein (2019-02-22 11:54:37)

Spoonwood · 2019-02-22 14:01:09

You're right on your math about walls pein, mine was off there. A 6x6 room doesn't have 32 walls, it has 28 walls (+ 6 6 6 6 4).

jasonrohrer · 2019-02-22 16:27:18

I might be missing something here, but floors alone shouldn't reduce biome temp effects unless you're in an enclosed airspace. Maybe there's a bug in the code there.

Spoonwood · 2019-02-22 16:58:22

jasonrohrer wrote:

I might be missing something here, but floors alone shouldn't reduce biome temp effects unless you're in an enclosed airspace. Maybe there's a bug in the code there.

As long as he's telling the truth, Yaira went to a bunch of effort here to figure that out: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5346 I don't like the idea of you trying to destroy his work or destroy his effort, or any future efforts at restricting ways of having good temperature. Honestly, it would be better to have the diversity of nature back where natural spots existed with temperature in the middle and you just let people play as they see fit with that sort of system. It isn't like nature doesn't have middle temperature spots for naked people. Nude beaches exist. Feeling grief at seeing naked people with little to no buildings or clothes having good temperature is not a good idea, and acting on that feeling of grief is even worse.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-02-22 17:04:51)

Booklat1 · 2019-02-22 18:28:50

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
I might be missing something here, but floors alone shouldn't reduce biome temp effects unless you're in an enclosed airspace. Maybe there's a bug in the code there.
As long as he's telling the truth, Yaira went to a bunch of effort here to figure that out: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5346 I don't like the idea of you trying to destroy his work or destroy his effort, or any future efforts at restricting ways of having good temperature. Honestly, it would be better to have the diversity of nature back where natural spots existed with temperature in the middle and you just let people play as they see fit with that sort of system. It isn't like nature doesn't have middle temperature spots for naked people. Nude beaches exist. Feeling grief at seeing naked people with little to no buildings or clothes having good temperature is not a good idea, and acting on that feeling of grief is even worse.

yeah, its better to have wasted design space in obsolete clothing, ugh

Jason, please keep doing ypur best to push buildings, free heat is not "having a choice", it only makes it the instead of heating

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-22 19:37:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

I might be missing something here, but floors alone shouldn't reduce biome temp effects unless you're in an enclosed airspace. Maybe there's a bug in the code there.

Any 8x8 area counts as an "enclosed airspace" even without walls, because the simulation grid is only 8x8. The boundary is assumed to be open, which means the boundary insulation value is very low, but the floor still counts as boundary insulation as well which brings it back up to a low-but-still-useful value.

The code can't tell whether you're in the middle of a 15x15 floored room fully enclosed by walls or in the middle of a 15x15 floored platform with no walls at all. In both cases the insulation of your airspace will be:

( rAir * 92 + rFloor * 64 ) / (92+64)

And because the airspace is entirely floored, the biome temperature contribution will be reduced by the airspace's insulation value.

Floors alone won't reduce the biome temp if you're standing close enough to the edge of the flooring (two tiles east or south, or three tiles north or west) so that your grid extends out beyond the flooring.

... at least, that what I think the code says. I may be reading it wrong. I haven't tested any of this myself.

Greep · 2019-02-22 21:25:44

It could be that the game actually supports very large rooms maybe? The jungle arena in OCS is actually a room, it's just something like 20x20. So maybe it was assumed to be open space, but actually does count as enclosed? Giant rooms actually working would be excellent if that is true. It also has smaller enclosed areas with belltower bases, which maybe count as enclosed? I think the arena is a bad place to test this stuff actually, too many variables xD

Last edited by Greep (2019-02-22 21:26:43)

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-22 23:22:40

In your very first picture ("floor alone barely add any heat") your two cases are actually the same. They both contain the same amount of flooring in the 8x8 grid around the player.

Whether the tile you're standing on is floored or not doesn't matter. What matters is the total amount of flooring in the 8x8 grid around where you are standing.

If you want to test the effect of flooring and compare like-for-like, try standing on an 8x8 section of flooring without walls, and then on an 8x8 section of empty tiles without walls.

Edit: Woops, where did yaira's new post with the new pictures go? That's what I was replying to, but now it's gone.

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2019-02-22 23:23:57)

yaira · 2019-02-22 23:27:13

*it's back on again
you got the point... I keep forgetting that all the floors in 8x8 zone affects player

I tested, complete belltower isn't counted as wall ;(
someone said, algorithm seems don't distinguish between enclosed room / 8x8 tiles

Last edited by yaira (2019-02-22 23:30:30)

Peremptive · 2019-02-23 04:18:55

so a 4x4 or 3x4 is perfect for a nursery or old people's home? I am having trouble getting close to perfect temp in large rooms

Last edited by Peremptive (2019-02-23 04:19:05)

pein · 2019-02-23 06:24:05

this still wont change the paradox
people keep up one fire, that requires X amount of time
2 fire is 2x time,2x resources, and works well enough in the open, no need for a room
but both cases is a waste cause it uses 2x times the axe, and the distances get higher and higher without planting new trees

you want the closest possible to middle, then the only choice is to go closer to fire
if one fire gives 2,5/number of tiles heat with walls and floors (correct me if im wrong but that 1x5 room really suggests that)
you get a requirement which wont make sense: stay far enough from fire, to be outside of its range, but have a small room so it has not a lot of tiles
with that 2.5 per tile, only 1x5 and 5x1 works naked. if clothes give extra 0.3 that is still 1x8 maybe? other sizes will be too hot overall or too cold in edges
while this narrow spaces cost a lot and you could build a bigger room for the wall cost

so if you choose to use the first ring around fire and have the secondary tier of radiant heat, it means that 4-8 tiles can be optimal, and will be cold spots in room,
the third tier of radiant heat, 2 tiles away from fire is so low that the bonus from insulation needs to be higher, and then the room needs to be smaller

also the door open/closed completely ruins the whole bonus and kind of impossible to keep it shut

in hiro family, my experiments with radiant heat showed numbers like this:

8 means 0.8 so too hot, 4 means 0.4 so just below the point i wanted
Too hot in middle, can be used to push over 0.5 then micromanage to keep it by moving in and out
slightly cold next to fire, ideally you step in fire for few seconds then come back here
diagonals: even colder and maybe more clothing/extra heat sources make it viable
3 tiles away: barely any effect from the fire and the room bonus wasn't enough to counteract it, but the room wasn't that big to be useful for a process like smithing or mass pie production
outside of my 8x8 (which means 4-5 tiles away from fire) is just barely warm, so basically the whole room is still cold with closed door

what we need is either that the fire itself is very hot and the bonus pushes the whole room into a stable 0.4 or 0.5 without going closer to fire
meanwhile in an open space the radiant heat is like half of that
currently outside fire is same heat, but no bonus, but the bonus is lower than the fire itself, and still you need to micromanage to step in and out of the middle, maybe a bit more often

so if im not wrong, and this 2.5 heat bonus spreads to number of the tiles, 5x5 room has 0.1 bonus heat for making a building, the floors, closing the door. the fire itself is too hot, 3 tiles away is too cold, so you got the second and third ring around fire which can be used
which is same as outside, 2nd ring is almost perfect both cases

as we got no limit, how many players or babies are on a tile, and would be silly to have a limit of 1 cause 2 set of quads could block you to step anywhere it doesn't really matter
you still sit near fire and step into fire
fire cost 1 firewood, lasts 4 minute both cases
silly idea: no babies same tile? that would mean max 8 babies per fire. where 4 sides are the VIP and diagonals are the wood bench
that's still a lot of babies in a normal case
limit people near fire? then multiple people would be blocked from exiting between fire
make fire blocking? same issue, people could use to block exits
make fire blocking but no fire can be near it? also fire cant be between 2 walls- hat would solve the issue of blocking people exit/entrance with fire, also that room bonus would be the only way to get into sweet 0.5 spot or 2 fires in the open
slow down people standing on same tile? that could be used to block their escape from your twin who wants to kill them
well that's not the case for kids and babies, so maybe babies push each other standing on same tile?

anyway i just wanted to prove that as long as radiant heat makes most heat and insulation isn't more stable and beneficial, people can just go closer to fire
how should fire work inside a room?
either give much more bonus but little to no radiant heat, i think is fine to let people be naked in a fully built shelter
how much? 0.5 perfect for nakeds, that should be a 3x3? 4x4?
and 0.4 plus clothes 6x6?
problem is that this isn't fully linear
9x9, 0.35 and full clothes medium?
but what i say, limit the space but lower clothing requirement
or limit people who wear clothes, and allow higher space

but any case, if you build a home and find out that is too cold afterwards, the efforts are wasted
so people need to know exactly what they are going for
or allow them to increase temperature precisely with extra cost but not in steps of 1 firewood, 2 firewood
instead of 1.1 firewood or 1.4 firewood
for example, right now 1 firewood 4 minutes, which is 240 sec
if we would be allowed to heat with charcoal, than a piece of charcoal would be 80 sec
you would need 3 charcoal to heat a room for 4 minutes, which lets say its 25 tiles
then you need 0.12 charcoal per tile
a room of 36 tiles would cost 4.32 charcoal

or reversly, if a room of 25 tiles uses one firewood for 240 sec, each tile around 10 sec
a room of 36 tiles would use a firewood each 180 sec

this is fair and square calculation for a heated room
you got big room? you need to put firewood more often
small room? less often
maybe allow us to dump charcoal there for more precise measurements either auto feeding or auto charcoal production (can be kerosene or oil or something else too)

we still dont have tiers of fire, you make a bonfire outdors, which is susceptible for wind but you don't care about spreading out a bit, you need to be close to it
indoors you would need a few stones for a campfire but it would last longer, maybe a bit more range
fireplace: could be attached to a wall inner side, checking for connected walls, would produce heat until the room is connected by walls and doors in a circle, once the door open for longer, it would stop and slowly cool down preserving the fuel (fast enough to not make door opening a save but slow enough to berealistic). has no radiant heat, has a fixed and targeted temperature, which requires fixed amount of fuel for fixed amount of time.

yaira · 2019-02-23 07:50:57

pein, shouldn't this picture be 6x6 or bigger?
is this large fire in open space?

fire radiation in real game

↑ ↓ compare 4 tiles away

fire_rangeaa.png?type=w740
*fire is behind the player

it's a shame, bigger room needs more firewood
sounds realistic but.. hope fire range was bigger and evenly distributed

Last edited by yaira (2019-02-23 19:09:27)

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-23 12:33:42

yaira, in your second picture the fire is outside your 8x8 grid and so it doesn't exist at all.

pein · 2019-03-04 09:22:14

well just some aproximations after baby testing
you got a 8x8 airspace where you are in the SE tile(not exactly sure on this, havent had time/resources to test it for real), so your aura is 4-5 each direction
your position regarding fire, determines the fire range, your aura wont change, the fire wont change, then you can say the fire has a range which is the reverse of aura, so it can be further where your airspace is bigger and must be closer where your airspace is shorter, so you need to wall off top left
and put fire top left corner from middle in 8x8 room that's the only tile where it affects 8x8
but ofc you can have in center of 7x7

diagonals a bit colder than straight
so yeah, that side is fire + 3 tiles, you would get better values on other side, bottom and right
the picture should be 7x7 (or 8x8) but i can safely say that 3 tiles away from fire, has barely any effect, your picture shows
0.10 which is kinda 0 as its starting point
so rest is 0.4 to middle

not right near fire, is negligeble and even with floors kinda bad

now if we talk about after update , i believe jason changed floors to much higher values, that means that minimum room size also changed and you can actually heat floors on a bigger surface
but radiant heat is just a plus on top of that so if you want 0.5 you need to be outside fire and calculate with smallest fire range which is 4x4 on top left

the real test would be a room made out of doors, at least from the starting 4x4 corner, and extend until it hits 0.5
squarre rooms are still best for radiant heat and wall/free tiles inside buildign value so i would only make square or almost square rooms any case and start it top left with walls and no doors on center, rather bottom or top right or airlocks of 3x3

voy178 · 2019-03-04 11:01:58

So what's the meta then? How big can we make our buildings including walls before we loose the effect? 6x6, 7x7, 8x8?

pein · 2019-03-04 11:32:20

1x5 without floors
then you got a perfect spot with no fire on other side
that is good for nursery but quite a waste on resources

7x7 is better cause has a center
and outer side is 9x9 and that good for 2 airlocks of 3x3

always start top left walls
put doors right bottom
you can use multiple doors as walls, they are portable and you can move it later
honestly they just better than fixed walls
always put things together
always extend from longest wall
always make square rooms (has more tiles inside as center doesn't require walls, sides and corners do, square has more middle tiles less sides)
you can put a 3x3 then a 7x7 near it then a 11x11 near it, etc
you reuse walls 25% so that's a save
even on sheep pen attached to a room

fire goes to center or top left from center (8x8 has no middle tile)
fire has best radiant heat on center, but never more than 8x8 so each 8x8 requires a fire

you got radiant heat, which is basically the closer to fire, the better
and insulation bonus, which is floors, bear rugs
now i don't know that for certain, might be a sweet spot where fire is on top left corner and you get 0.5 out of its range, might be 5x5 or 6x6 its still not a lot of workspace

yaira · 2019-03-04 11:48:58

well I don't know how much Jason increased room insulation

but you better tryout a small room first.

I don't think a room big enough for a forge can be warm with room insulation

have a go and compare with it

Last edited by yaira (2019-03-04 11:55:34)

Tarr · 2019-03-04 12:15:29

voy178 wrote:

So what's the meta then? How big can we make our buildings including walls before we loose the effect? 6x6, 7x7, 8x8?

Pretty sure the correct building is no building at all or a 3x3 (or something small) to stuff babies in. Even in that situation though you pretty much don't need the walls/flooring but just a fire to keep babies warm.

Buildings are bad but people keep building them because either they want to, don't know better, or just want buildings. Hopefully he revisits buildings before too long to actually make them useful.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-04 12:32:58

Tarr wrote:

Hopefully he revisits buildings before too long to actually make them useful.

I feel differently. I'd rather not have Jason mess around with other game mechanics to the point where buildings became more useful. Flooring also gives me lag.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-03-04 12:52:41

I for one like all the recent changes to how temp works. I like it when I get setup with a full set of clothes and my food consumption goes way down. Perhaps we need to be looking at buildings having benefits other than heat addition / reduction?

Maybe specialty buildings?
Many people have suggested grain silos or warehouses in the past for bulk food storage? Be a good place to encourage preserved food storage in the future.
We already have people building hospital locations, an enclosed hospital with beds could allow injured people to climb into bed and confer a death delaying benefit?
How about a baby room with cribs? You stand over a crib, have a baby, and they start in the crib and the rascal can't crawl away! Muhahahaha!

I'm sure we could come up with enough ideas to make something like this work.

The_Anabaptist

pein · 2019-03-04 13:05:38

storage and furniture would be the obvious one

and don't write down buildings yet, we got better r values on flooring
don't know what it means but might be better sized buildings
hard to get to that level of civ where you got resources but no buildings yet so i an make one
just amass like 32 doors and you can test it out for yourself

one fire isn't optimal without walls, you still get too high or too low near it
the one it works it's the 1x5 room, that you could squeeze between bakery and sheep pen, that way its less of a waste of resources, or if you got a 5 wide room cut off with 5 doors a 5x1 of it

the obvious is storage in walls and furniture
i suggested central heating which would have no radiant fire but overall warmer, and the cost not 1 firewood, isntead based on the size 1.2 firewood per 4 min or only 3 min
you could feed coal to it and would work o nits own for like 30 min, that would be good enough

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