We need a different option than murder

karltown_veteran · 2019-03-04 15:42:29

nerfsnowballsnow wrote:

Got sent to donkeytown for the second time now. From four curses. Was in a town with sheep. Noticed someone shear the last sheep. Went up to them and told them not to. They very clearly saw it since they stood still while I was typing, but they didnt respond. I fed the sheep so we could have lamb again, and that person went up again and sheared the last sheep. I had already warned them not to do it, so I stabbed them. They cursed me and went into town and told people to curse me since I "was griefer". One person cursed me and then chased me with knife even though I explained myself. I literally spent about 40 seconds just typing that she was bad for town and for him to stop, he didn't, he kept trying to stab. Decided I had given him enough chances so I stabbed him. He runs into town and tells people to curse me again, luckily it ended there. Got sent to donkeytown for it though. Do I really deserve it? Four curses for killing someone who was fucking over town and refusing to stop, and someone who tried to kill me for that. Cursing system is really stupid since people just curse without knowing any context at all. I bet if I had lost the fight with the guy trying to stab me, and I told people to curse him when I had been stabbed, they would have. Right now people just curse whoever has a bloody knife without even asking why, and it's seriously stupid.

Currently there isn't any way to settle domestic arguments other than murder, unless a person is willing to compromise - although compromise is unlikely. We have flirted with the idea in previous posts about jails and shackles.. you could curse the person, but it's unlikely that a curse will do anything.
Maybe we need to tweak the curse system just a little bit more
First off, if we implement this idea, curses should be less frequent, earned over a longer period of time. Here's the idea: If you curse someone it will freeze them. They will drop anything they are holding, and anything in their backpack, and freeze for 5 or 10 minutes of their life. Whether or not they have to be fed, or can talk, or can be killed, I am not sure. It's just a rough idea to try and stop potential griefers / annoyances without murder. It seems a bit far flung, but so does the idea of curses in general..
On the flip side, I want to keep the current curse system. Donkey town is a good idea. So maybe we could have something else, the freeze system. If one person says "Freeze Hope Adams (or insert name)" then it will freeze them for one minute. Two, three minutes. Four for five minutes, five for ten minutes.

pein · 2019-03-04 16:07:25

just a beat em up, invite on a fight
we would need some mechanic with a few hits rather than 1
the person becomes disabled for a period of time, cant hold weapon and loses his/her clothes, ability to gear up
and gets a shame mark
curses are bad, not objective
and it would be a simple way to steal stuff or annoy someone who doesn't deserve it
i trust more on skill, more experienced people should come out as a winner

my sis quit a life cause i told that she shouldn't build house between pen and the kiln
rather than moving a few tiles she just quit
just because you are too sensitive doesn't mean you should get your way
btw anything you do to a medium skill 12 year old he will overreact it and replies with murder and curses so not a good idea letting people roam around
kills are not so bad, people who get killed might learn a lesson

DestinyCall · 2019-03-04 16:09:16

What's so wrong with compromise? It is the basis of community living.

There are a number of ways to address domestic disputes without resorting to violence. Most of them involve talking. Some of them involve more creative solutions. For example, in the past, when I have had to deal with someone over-shearing the sheep, I dealt with the problem by giving one warning. Then I confiscated the shears. That person could no longer shear the last sheep. I then took over sheep tending for the rest of my life, since I had the only shears. In my experience, the person who is abusing the sheep just wants a wool item (usually apron or sweater), so taking away the shears solves the problem. Eventually, they come back around to ask for shears and I explain again why I took them. This time, they have to listen (or stab me, but so far, that has not happened). If they are a griefer, it forces them to switch tactics, but you know their name now. As long as you keep an eye on them, you can catch them if they start messing around with some other aspect of village life.

If the only tool you use is a hammer, all problems look like nails. But you don't have to solve every dispute by stabbing it to death. Sometimes, you can work things out by talking. Or by coming up with creative solutions to difficult problems - like moving your carrot farm to the edge of town to avoid carrot pickers, or making yourself a backpack to secure valuable items like rope or changing to a different job to avoid working next to someone you dislike.

pein · 2019-03-04 16:24:52

or they make 5 shears and curse you for taking it even if you are the only one who feeds sheep
talking with newbees works, they don't even do shit in first place
talking with bored trolls gets you cursed or killed so rather just stab them and save yourself from a player who goes around asking curses for you
then there are other lazy ones who take everything from your station and never get it back and say fuck you when you talk to them and will grief you for an entire life, and if you want to work you wont be able, and sure as hell they wont work until they frame you or kill you or ruin the city

karltown_veteran · 2019-03-04 22:28:03

DestinyCall wrote:

What's so wrong with compromise? It is the basis of community living.

There's nothing wrong with compromise, people should be encouraged to compromise. The problem is when the person on the other end refuses to be civil.. like maybe they've got something of yours and refuse to give it back.. if you freeze them they'll drop it. Or, if you don't want villagers to see blood, you could freeze them and then convince people to let them starve.

futurebird · 2019-03-05 00:59:23

That sounds great until someone uses it on you for no real reason. IDK we have snow balls?

Today I saw someone get cursed for "not feeding me when I have yellow fever" when the person in question just didn't understand what to do. I don't know if more "punishments" would make it better...

BladeWoods · 2019-03-05 01:51:35

If you kill someone for shearing sheep you deserve to be cursed.

Baker · 2019-03-05 03:56:12

Sir, You are under arrest for stealing/moving shit.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to your mother for advice before we ask you any questions. You have the right to have your mother with you during questioning. If your mother is dead, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without your mother present, you have the right to stop answering at any time.

karltown_veteran · 2019-03-05 12:59:46

Baker wrote:

Sir, You are under arrest for stealing/moving shit.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in court. You have the right to talk to your mother for advice before we ask you any questions. You have the right to have your mother with you during questioning. If your mother is dead, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. If you decide to answer questions now without your mother present, you have the right to stop answering at any time.

Yeah, that's the idea.. a frozen person would be noticeable, maybe people would bring him before court, all he could do is talk, they would decide to kill him or starve him or let him live.

futurebird · 2019-03-05 13:17:46

That many people stopping working to do the trial could kill many towns IMO. I don't see how there is enough time. Who would be growing the food and cooking the pies during the trial?

PeaGirl · 2019-03-05 13:22:53

karltown_veteran wrote:

There's nothing wrong with compromise, people should be encouraged to compromise. The problem is when the person on the other end refuses to be civil.. like maybe they've got something of yours and refuse to give it back.. if you freeze them they'll drop it. Or, if you don't want villagers to see blood, you could freeze them and then convince people to let them starve.

What comes around, goes around. One may abuse this system while baiting people outside to kill them. It only adds up for possibilities griefers can abuse this system. Especially with zoom out mode, one may simply pick someone's name outside nowhere and 'freeze' them and it's game over.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-05 18:25:47

We already have a way to "freeze" people who we don't like. It's called snowballs. Some people like it, because it is a cheap and easy way to kill people without any evidence of your crime. It can be used either by vigilantes to kill griefers or griefers to kill random people for no reason. It's not particularly fair or balanced and prone to abuse. Very few people use snowballs to freeze people so they can be put on trial or solve the situation non-violently. Occasionally, you might see someone use snowballs to disarm someone or force them to drop an item, but it almost always ends with the snowballed person getting killed (or the snowballer, in rare cases).

At least with the curse system, you have to piss off multiple people repeatedly in a short period of time to get punished. If you have managed to get into the upper tier of high lifetime curses over the course of your existence in OHOL, you are a hostile player. Whether you are killing for good reasons or bad, you earned those curses by repeatedly disrupting villages and upsetting people who just want to work and play in a peaceful village As far as I can see, the system is working as intended. The problem is that some people will never learn, no matter how many times they go to Donkey Town. They will continue to be hostile and disruptive. And continue to get cursed "for no reason". And continue to complain about the stupidity and unfairness of other people who curse them without realizing that they were doing the "right" thing by killing again ... and again ... and again.

nerfsnowballsnow · 2019-03-05 20:47:03

Don't know exactly what the solution would be, but I agree so much with this, though not sure how it would work. So many people on that thread just said that I shouldn't have killed her, but what other solution is there? Talking didn't work. She was going to keep doing it despite it obviously being bad for town, and I had no way to stop her other than killing her. If people refuse to listen you can't do anything other than kill them. Maybe you can use a lasso to "catch" someone and force them to listen? It's silly I know but it's the only thing I can think of.

Also to Destiny above, snowballs have luckily been nerfed. Can't kill with them anymore. And a 5 second freeze isn't going to stop anyone, snowballs are fair now IMO. They can't be used as a solution. Would also like to know what you would have done in that situation, since you seem to think that what I did was extremely wrong. I am fully willing to teach new players and have done so several times. I'm not toxic ingame with the text. But if people sabotage town, even if its not intentional and refuse to listen to why what they are doing is bad, what on earth can you do?

DestinyCall · 2019-03-06 00:22:31

Glad to hear that snowballs have bern nerfed. They were too deadly by far.

I mentioned how I have handled this situation in an earlier post. Basically, after giving the first warning (or announcing to the village in general, if I can't pinpoint the exact culprit), I will confiscate the shears. It helps to have a backpack, but you can always take the "hide it behind a tree" route, if you don't have a pack. The important thing is that if you do this, you must also take full responsibility for properly tending the sheep and shear them as often as required. If you just hide the shears and walk away, you have effectively griefed the pen in a different way.

In my experience, this usually prevents further over-shearing attempts with a high degree of effectiveness. More often than not, the over-shearing player is either ignorant, stupid, or lazy, rather than being outright malicious. They either did not know (or did not care) that their actions were adversely affecting other people. If they were simply unaware or new, the warning might be enough to stop them. But sometimes they are also lazy or stubborn and unwilling to change their behavior as long as it continuws to work for them. In that case, they might ignore the warning and keep coming back to the pen. But lazy, stupid people usually do not know how to smith. They expect tools to just be there when they need them and take what they need without wondering how it was made... so if you take away the shears, they are stuck until they can find the shears or convince someone to make another set. With any luck, they will get bored and move on to other things or get eaten by a bear and you never need to worry about them again. Or they will eventually come back around to ask you for the shears and you can talk to them again about proper sheep tending, if you wish. If they want shears to make an apron, I just tell them to bring me the sweater and I will shear it for them. They lost shearing privileges when they abused the poor sheep. Maybe they learn something, maybe they don't but nobody dies and nobody gets cursed. If they go on to do other bad things and clearly reveal themselves as either a griefer or just too dumb to live, it is not too late to intervene in a more permenant fashion. But as a general rule, I am against killing people for the crime of being stupid. We have too many skeletons to deal with already and murder drama is an unwanted distraction from productive village life.

Ironically, I did recently have a life were my values were sorely tested and it was all because of a set of shears. I was born into a small pre-sheep village with a decent population of hard-working folks. When I got old enough, I decided that the lack of sheep was the most pressing concern at the moment and decided that I would dedicate my life to that task. I noticed that someone was already constructing a wooden sheep pen, so I helped by gathering long shafts from the expansive green space and redesigned the entrance so we would not need to rely on a cumbersome gate system. I gathered carrots from the wild and encouraged one of my smarter sons to start a farm, since our village would soon need them. Then I went to hunt a mouflon and brought the sheep to the village. By this point, I was an old woman and I was running out of time, but I wanted to do one last thing before I died - make shears.

I headed over to the smithy and we had three steel bars and a file. More than adequate for my task. I set about making a pair of blade blanks ... but my smithing hammer broke after I finished the first blank. Fortunately, I had just enough time to make a new hammer head before the forge died. But as soon as the blank cooled, a guy grabbed it off the flat stone and walked away with it. Fortunately, I saw him in time a was able to pick it up when he set it down next to the file. He wanted to make a knife to harvest rubber. We already had three knives in the village, including the one in my pack. I told him we needed shears and I could go cut the tree for him when I was done smithing. I put the blank in my pack and went looking for a short shaft to fix my smithing hammer. I returned to the smithy with my new hammer, just in time to witness a woman walking away with one of the flat stones. I chased her down and found her next to a small fire and a basket of eggs. I told her "No, this belongs in the smithy" and grabbed the stone. I walked back to the smithy with the stone and fired up the forge, but when I went to smith, my hammer was missing. Looked around, couldn't see it anywhere. The forge went out. I was pissed. And the lady was back, stealing another flat stone. I followed her, grabbed it again. Told her "no. Do not steal from smithy." and headed back again to finish my shears, come hell or high water. Fortunately, my hammer had reappeared. Someone probably picked it up by mistake and brought it back. Crisis averted. I got more charcoal going and was about to fire it up ... but the flat-stone thief was back again.

This time she had learned from past mistakes so she did not let go of the flat stone until her egg fire burned down to coals. I was so annoyed by this point, I very nearly pulled out my knife and killed her right there. I was already very frustrated and her repeated disruptions were costing me valuable time. I was in my fifties by now and was at significant risk of dying before I finished the damn shears. I don't usually kill people for petty reasons, but I was sorely tempted to make an exception for this woman. Especially when she had the audacity to justify her behavior by telling me she needed the omelettes for yum to improve her fertility and then complained that my earlier interference had caused her to waste some kindling.

Stabbing her to death would have been deeply satsifying at that moment. So so satisfying. But, I was 55 years old and I didn't want to waste my last years of life on murder cooldown. So instead, I went back to the smith and finished my shears. My last act was shearing a sheep, rather than stabbing that dumb cow. I think I made the right call, but I can certainly empathize with the temptation to go down a different path.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-06 04:37:42)

futurebird · 2019-03-06 05:35:09

Why did it matter that she took the stone if you could make the shears without it?

DestinyCall · 2019-03-06 06:44:30

futurebird wrote:

Why did it matter that she took the stone if you could make the shears without it?

Why does it matter if someone takes your stew-making supplies if you can just go get another bowl/plate/flint and keep working?

Stealing flat stones from the smithing area is bad villager behavior. Taking tools when someone is clearly using them is rude and disruptive to other people's work. It is common courtesy to at least ask before you take something if it looks like someone else might need it to do their job. Even if you don't fully understand what they are doing or why. The smithing area has a lot of interesting stuff in it and it is very common for new players to go over and grab things without realizing that the time-sensitive nature of smithing means that EVERYTHING in the smithing area needs to stay in the smithing area or it could cause significant delays and screw up the smith's job.

The first time I went after her, I just wanted to let her know that she shouldn't do what she just did. I figured she might not realize it was a problem and I could let her know so she wouldn't do it again in a different village and upset the smith. The second time she took a flat stone, she had already been warned and it was no longer a question of simple ignorance. She was stealing from my work space intentionally and blatantly. I wasn't going to stand idly by and let her get away with being a lazy rock thief. And the third time, I was super pissed and tired of dealing with her nonsense. I doubt she has any idea how close she came to getting stabbed by a grumpy old lady who just wanted to make some shears. She picked a very bad time to mess around with me, since I'd already dealt with too many disruptions in my work space and I was running out of time and patience.

If I had felt like it, I could have easily justified her murder by telling myself that the village was better off without her in it or that her blatant theft and general rudeness was close enough to griefing to deserve death. I've certainly seen other people get murdered for much less and their murderers walk away without punishment. People knew me in that village and I doubt that I would have gotten cursed for killing a "griefer" who was messing with the smithy. I wasn't afraid of being cursed and I wasn't afraid of dying. The only thing that really prevented me from acting on my deadly impulse was a personal distaste for cold-blooded murder ... and my desire to finish making those shears before I died.

She's just really lucky I had more flat rocks. That's all I'm saying.

Bob 101 · 2019-03-06 12:03:02

Truth is killing will always be easier then the non lethal option.
Killing removes the problem entirely, Letting people live is a risk.
We've had the option to disarm murderers with snowballs but people still used them to kill.

What's so bad about a friendly warning and a stabbing when they don't listen.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-03-06 12:12:22)

Glassius · 2019-03-07 23:22:37

My father and his neighbours funded an electrical connection. Power plant wanted to buy it out. To speed it up, they send two said mans to cut us off electricity.

Fortunately, my father was close with a shovel and made them ran away. This is why I am still waiting for more violence options. Without them, there is no property. Yes, we have deadly weapons, but there is little use of them. You are hesitant to kill for small crime and you lack a way of medium punishment This is one of reasons, there is no private property, no trade and no wars.

futurebird · 2019-03-07 23:29:27

DestinyCall wrote:

futurebird wrote:
Why did it matter that she took the stone if you could make the shears without it?

Why does it matter if someone takes your stew-making supplies if you can just go get another bowl/plate/flint and keep working?

This is what I do now. I get or make another since there are clearly not enough.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-07 23:53:04

futurebird wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
futurebird wrote:
Why did it matter that she took the stone if you could make the shears without it?

Why does it matter if someone takes your stew-making supplies if you can just go get another bowl/plate/flint and keep working?
This is what I do now. I get or make another since there are clearly not enough.

Yes, but does it matter to you that your tools were taken? Because it would bother me.

I'm not saying you should hunt the culprit down and kill them for their crime. Making more bowls/plates is a much healthier way of dealing with the problem and benefits your village much more than violence. My point is that it IS problem, even if it is just an annoying one. A big part of being a good community member is recognizing when your actions are creating problems for other people. Some people are better at this than other people. Some people are just really really annoying.

Ironically, killing people that annoy you ALSO creates problems for other people and disrupts the work of everyone nearby. Hardly a good solution if you are trying to reduce annoying behavior.

futurebird · 2019-03-08 10:24:54

I don't think most of the people "taking" tools I was using even realized that is what they did. It's not like they have my name on them.

Tools not being used will be picked up and used. It requires a surplus to have one hoe for the soup farmer and one for the carrot farmer. Same for the flint chip and round stone--

I do say "please return that when you are done" seems to work about 3/4 of the time.

nilla · 2019-03-09 17:34:19

Maybe we need a duel system? Like you can challenge a person to a duel and they can accept or not.

If not that, then maybe a call out system where we call out someone is being suspicious (eg "/callout Eve Jones") and that puts a marker over their head so people will be more vigilant and pay attention to that player's actions. If a person isn't griefing they have nothing to worry about unless they are a noob doing noob things... I think it may still be good since then a noob's noobie behavior can be corrected.

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#1 2019-03-04 15:42:29

We need a different option than murder

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Re: We need a different option than murder

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