Start using boxes again!

pein · 2019-03-08 06:55:46

Everyone was obese, i mean obsessed about carrots
But nobody talks about the best feature of the update before this:

adze makes box and boards out of chest, and shaft makes sledge out of box, drag it, then you can cut it again with adze

before this, boxes and chests were destroyed into a single kindling
the reason was because once a few people were locked into a building
soon after box griefers ruined much more than room lockers could of

but now we got back the sturdy boxes, and they are better than before!

so what to use a box for?
storage is vital, and if you don't plan building big rooms and enclosed walls for them, then might as well use boxes as walls
it blocks movement (if that matters) and gives storage
now you can hold all the bowl stacks near the berry bushes in a box
and all plate stacks in kitchen

you can build a pen out of boxes and move sides with a shaft then someone cuts it off to move all other boxes out, increasing pen size (make the extension first)
boxes can hold most of the meat, the shepherd tools and the fleece in them, even sheep food and other things

don't really see the point of chests, covering contents? people get even more curious about it
a pack can hold loin cloth, 2 shoes and then the hat and chest piece takes up 3/4 of one box, ideal clothing place
now we got stacks so its more efficient to stack carrots, or limestone, than to put in baskets than boxes
but it can store tools and stuff

the other error i see, is that people make a pen (which isn't an error , i would make pen before room 99% of times)
then a room somewhere around it, then there is space in between
that's 25% of material loss
i connected like 5-6 pens to rooms lately and gained like 10 free tiles without gathering no or only a few materials for walls

so how to make it properly?
you make an oven, preferably on a floor tile
make sure you got a lot of free space, no ponds, cactus or rabbit holes around it
you put 2 boxes top diagonals (can be bottom diagonals, then just reverse the whole thing)
make a door or keep a free tile for it
put a home marker or stew between (same as bush but can be on floor tile) - later on best is to make 4 copper from malachite, use 2 on a roller, and make the radio base which cannot be moved https://onetech.info/2603-Partial-Spark … nsmitter-1
this allows going trough but the sheep wont go to kitchen (or you can skip this and you transport meat by letting a sheep inside then butcher there)
this forms a basic front entrance to the pen
now the rest of it is normal, the shared wall can be 2 space 2 for a 5x5 middle room
or 3 space 3 for a 7x7 inner size room
the door can be open while you transfer the meat inside
those boxes are for meat, if you want extra for pie baskets then make new boxes on side of room
i don't really see a point of putting pies in baskets then boxes, people need to eat it and make new, making 5 boxes full of pies, just makes people lose interest
you can put 2 doors, then people cant exit to pen, only enter from it if its closed

the pen can be normal for the rest of it, adobe bases or bell bases or half adobe walls
if you want side entrances, check it on picture
but you are fine with two corner and one middle room entrance
other option can be a rail into airlock then a door to room
the airlock can be 3x3 with some sledges to store meat and sheep food

so the important part is 3 half adobe walls, space (no need for a door to block movement and wont give heat until walls are full) then 3 more half adobe walls
then the pen above it
oven under it possibly on floor
2 boxes and a home marker
cheap and effective setup in gen 2-4, two birds, one stone

pein · 2019-03-08 08:35:40

just made it in a real game

got firewood, kept up fire, fed sheep, made compost, butchered sheep and dug all the adobe, then made this

breezeknight · 2019-03-08 12:33:11

boxes are great & indeed better than ever before
they look quite good if filled with stacked bowls & filled baskets

there is still one problem
boxes are unmovable as long a long straight shaft is not attached to them & it gets attached in a snap

played right now in a town's bakery
above were three boxes for the pies made as i began
then as i rechecked later on, someone attached not only one but two straight shafts to two of those boxes
later on one of those were dragged away, remade to a cart probably
io to prevent the second stolen as well i had to search for an adze & then replaced the stolen box again

it's not as annoying as anything else i found annoying in the game before
but it makes additional work & the disorganization is even after the stacking update still rampant

futurebird · 2019-03-08 13:07:17

That's the point of the chest, you cant just slap a shaft on it and drag it away.

breezeknight · 2019-03-08 13:31:36

futurebird wrote:

That's the point of the chest, you cant just slap a shaft on it and drag it away.

what ?

Spoonwood · 2019-03-08 14:25:23

I know that I have *accidently* used a shovel on half-bell tower base sheep pens before. If you make that design, I suggest that you at least try to get someone else to upgrade them to full bell tower bases.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-03-08 14:26:11)

pein · 2019-03-08 17:14:25

evylin had a nameless girl, then she had a girl herself and the lineage went on, just wow
she was repeating must kill but seemed to understand that she is last girl
the blonde guy just cut all the firewood and burned each half min one until i explained not to
i really taught we died out but it went on for 27 gen!

makes no sense for the oven to be blocked by towers so i think is essential to have those boxes there

was quite funny that people chitchat and i built the wall first, on normal zoom the rest is out of screen
so i built the whole thing without most of them realizing it, and was quite funny when girl was like "who did this?"
she was similar age as me

its still the equivalent of watering pen side then making oven out of it or taking the forge adobe and making useless oven of it
or making newcommen or bell base from the bell base pen
hits a hole and someone got to fix it
only that boards and ropes are harder to come by if people decide they need more carts and take that box
and guess firebrand is closeby

so yeah, the door on it or at least a grave can be good
and have some extra bell bases to fix it temporarily
but it still should become meta then people know why are boxes there, and yeah chest is a bit safer

the other option to make 2 of 3x3 airlocks in middle and one of them has the output rail for meat, and maybe even input rail for sheep food on other side or just nursery

wasn't ideal scenario, was already late to make it
i just wanted to showcase it and found a box and adze to do so
now i used the rope which might have been used for the mouflon and left near pen
but we had no other milkweed in sight
also i digged up all the stumps they left before me
and all the stumps they left after me

didn't even plan on upgrading it right away
i just went with half walls all around
but a girl became excited and told me she helps to get more (she dc and die while holding a happy daughter, found their bones there)
thinking it's a room
so they just snapped the rest of adobe from the baskets and upgraded north side
and repeated 'we got pen"
if you can cal lthat 2x4 a pen, i was working on cleaning it and feeding until i swapped a knife from a kids back
i mean i had more so i could finish it all around but already was upgraded on parts so i just went and fixed all except the 4 sides

now in this life getting stone was a bit harder as we had like 3 in that small badlands and a few above us in forest, quite far
also i had to go quite far to get milkweed seed
then i found that we got no soil, so i digged all soil pits until compost was ready
we had 2 ponds to right so i made a milkweed farm
planted 12 of them and left one bowl south near other farms and one near the new plantation
also 4 milkweed and a few unwatered

also note to self to start the room downward and make the pen from adobe base or bell base upward after it
maybe make the whole thing a few tiles away, like this case we still had water to right so i could have just make it there

does anyone can confirm that no dung is gathered if you feed mashed berries and carrot to sheep? or it was because of the size?
i can confirm that i fed 3 sheep until i got a poop
as the only compost was there unwatered when i was born

next time i don't make those diagonals, i just close bottom side of pen, maybe at 5x5 then just go and make 2 corner entrances
and if i ever make adobe walls, they look ok turned all flat EW

breezeknight · 2019-03-08 17:46:17

@pein, i appreciate your efforts greatly, still ...

oven bases, tower bases, boxes as sheep pen walls

instead of those silly materials to build a sheep pen there should be finally a wattle fence to make in a relatively easy way on lower tech a confinement for sheeps, which, as the needs of a new settlement stand atm, have to be kept meantime very early on

i'd say
to build a fence out of long straight shafts is near impossible in an early settlement,
the unsolved problem with its entrance, which is easily & playfully griefable, aggreviates the impracticability of that wooden fence additionally

a wattle fence could be also prone to decay, say in an hour or two, indicated by a crumbling look, so it would be only a temporary solution or it had to be repaired on a regular basis
would make for good additional gameplay

a wattle fence should make at least as good a sheep pen as oven bases, tower bases, boxes, then it would be a good item to craft

oven bases, tower bases, boxes as sheep pen walls make no good gameplay, are just placeholders till Jason comes out with a solution
& you wouldn't have made those suggestions if it wouldn't be necessary, wouldn't you ?

i've NEVER built a sheep pen
& the reason is solely the sillines of the mentioned materials & the near impossibility of a wooden fence & its problematic door

those sheep pens NEED URGENTLY an update !

denriguez · 2019-03-08 17:58:31

breezeknight wrote:

a wattle fence could be also prone to decay, say in an hour or two, indicated by a crumbling look, so it would be only a temporary solution or it had to be repaired on a regular basis
would make for good additional gameplay
a wattle fence should make at least as good a sheep pen as oven bases, tower bases, boxes, then it would be a good item to craft

A lower-tech fence that's less griefable but less durable is a good idea. If it's a wattle fence, I'd suggest using yew branches, split lengthwise with a flint chip, as that'd give them another use. ATM they're basically either for bows or kindling. Nobody makes fishing poles, and the Newcomen engine use only requires one.

NetherCrow · 2019-03-08 18:03:49

Wow. Nice design!

WalrusesConquer · 2019-03-08 18:12:28

Lol i was that girl (Cow) Didnt know what was going on (I thought you were making an altar or something) only when you explained did it seem like a good idea
The original pen was *tiny*

Also I put it down to my parenting that made that evil baby do great -definatly didn't try to starve her at any point..-

Last edited by WalrusesConquer (2019-03-08 18:19:22)

Strilar · 2019-03-08 18:45:56

breezeknight wrote:

i've NEVER built a sheep pen
& the reason is solely the sillines of the mentioned materials & the near impossibility of a wooden fence & its problematic door
those sheep pens NEED URGENTLY an update !

Amen to that! Agreed 100%

Sadly i also have NEVER built a sheep pen for the exact same reason, i built walls, floors, doors for buildings, but the two times where i attempted to make a 5x5 sheep pen out of wooden fences in my life just to see how it would go, i failed miserably and even if i had succeeded, it wouldn't have been a very useful pen.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-08 18:55:24

breezeknight wrote:

a wattle fence should make at least as good a sheep pen as oven bases, tower bases, boxes, then it would be a good item to craft
oven bases, tower bases, boxes as sheep pen walls make no good gameplay, are just placeholders till Jason comes out with a solution
& you wouldn't have made those suggestions if it wouldn't be necessary, wouldn't you ?
i've NEVER built a sheep pen
& the reason is solely the sillines of the mentioned materials & the near impossibility of a wooden fence & its problematic door
those sheep pens NEED URGENTLY an update !

I prefer to make sheep pens out of boxes for the lower edge and the lowest corners are boxes also. Berry bush entrances. And wait for it... maples and poplars. The only thing I don't know is I have to wait to get sheep until the trees are full grown. If you only need to have planted the saplings from the wild trees to block the sheep from escaping, I think tree pens would be worth it on the big server. If not, then I can see why the first animal would want another material. But, trees still come as something to think about for a 2nd (or potentially third) animal pen where there isn't so much of a rush. I mean, you want to grow some trees anyways to save on running around for branches, right? So why not "kill two birds with one stone"?

futurebird · 2019-03-08 21:16:49

breezeknight wrote:

futurebird wrote:
That's the point of the chest, you cant just slap a shaft on it and drag it away.
what ?

Pein mentioned that people turn boxes into sledges and carts. If you make a box you don't have that issue.

breezeknight · 2019-03-08 21:34:49

futurebird wrote:

breezeknight wrote:
futurebird wrote:
That's the point of the chest, you cant just slap a shaft on it and drag it away.
what ?
Pein mentioned that people turn boxes into sledges and carts. If you make a box you don't have that issue.

aha, you mean if i make a chest out of a box, then i have not that issue

understood

Psykout · 2019-03-08 22:28:37

I agree with using boxes as part of a pen. I really like having part of the wall of a pen as a box or two and the bakery is attached adjacently to easily pass mutton. Also sadly fences are too costly early on and easily griefable, I much prefer the aesthetics of wooden fences, even when doing non gate entries. Here is a quick shot of the three space pen I did on a private server with bakery attached and tailor attached.

for some reason flooring was bugging out on my server so none of that, kind of ruined the build without having fast roads and wooden boarders around the garden. Was still fun to do the layout though.

pein · 2019-03-09 00:34:51

dunno if its a bug or feature, or was the size of pen or the mashed berry carrot, but the sheep didnt always pooped, we needed a few at start

fences would be viable if they would cover like 2-3 tiles, like newcommen does have 2 tiles blocking, that would result in diagonal walls, i tested it with newcommen, would of cover much more space but looks a bit weird
pit pens and snowmen pens showed that we rather go fast and cheap than fancy and slow

i kinda liked the meta pens, if it blocks a tile, make a pen out of it
i missed the 2 stone to well bug and the stew crock bug, would of been fun to make pens out of that

how about just having a few corners, and linking up with ropes? like a box ring
we need to find some good solution, pens are essential part of a stable city

takes quite a while to make one right now
especially if we supposed to make rooms too
i would like boards as walls, maybe a new way to cut butt log into long boards which would cover more tiles

also, pine pens would be nice, i posted on other topic, how i imagine it, its jut mango or pine trees around in a box shape with some stones on bottom so it wont block the view south side.
The downside is the long growth time so you wont see in your lifetime

Branches are op out of their biome, as that was quite limiting factor in a few camps, but pine is just for firewood, so just a bit of saving on transport, also in real life pines grow faster than most of the other trees, what about a 50 min growth timer? if you plant trees before age 10 you would see them grow out.

i would also like bushes cut to shape as decor/function
and obviously the stone blocks could be a connected small stone fence

Psykout · 2019-03-09 09:25:29

pein wrote:

fences would be viable if they would cover like 2-3 tiles, like newcommen does have 2 tiles blocking, that would result in diagonal walls, i tested it with newcommen, would of cover much more space but looks a bit weird
pit pens and snowmen pens showed that we rather go fast and cheap than fancy and slow

Agreed if they spanned multiple tiles it would be an upgrade but not many objects function that way and it would not be very intuitive. Newcommen blocks two tiles because it NEEDS to reserve that spare tile for the machinery. At the moment fences just use so much. Two long shafts, adze use and shovel use. To take them out all it takes is a mallet (usually should have but if not +1 adze use) and a shovel. It's a griefers paradise, not only are the tools needed to break it down usually right around, but you can open the pen AND ding the shovel up a little bit. Oh and if there is no stakes around you need +1 long shafts (granted it is returned on use but still necessary to start it off). Considering how little guarantee there is that the pen you spent most of your life and a bunch of resources to make is gonna last an hour or so, why do fancy? Considering how viable oven base pens are to me bell tower bases are fancy, especially if there are a lot of reed stumps to dig up to get it off the ground. I would never conceive of even starting to use a fence to make a pen, no way in an average camp is there going to be enough shafts to get it done in a timely manner. Also if I were spawning into a city and there was time for that and perhaps resources - the pen is already too established and there isn't room. It would be absolutely pointless to attempt said project, your best bet realistically is to convert a oven base pen into adobe wall pen. Which again is rather pointless because the pen works, and there is other stuff that could be done. When is the last time you saw someone grief an oven base pen anyways? A single bucket of water and a bowl and you could take down half the pen in seconds and collapse the town - yet for some reason it does not seem like it's a widespread grief tactic. Hard to wrap my head around it - I think it comes down to too much competition for long shafts on its own makes fences unviable.

pein wrote:

how about just having a few corners, and linking up with ropes? like a box ring
we need to find some good solution, pens are essential part of a stable city

Oh dear god another rope sink? No thank you. Rope is hands down my least favorite mechanic of the entire game. Odd, such a crucial resource that is needed for sooo many things, that mankind has found ways to make out of nearly every fiber we work with, has one non renewable wild resource. To cultivate it - requires four tilled soil and 4 bowls of water. I will let you take whatever route you want to get this, none of them are good. Either you are tilling 3 bowls of soil for one tool use, 2 bowls for one tool use, or one bowl for two tool use. We can now refine oil to make kerosene to pump for water or to fly a crude airplane, but to make a single piece of rope it still takes:

1 Skewer | 1-2 Uses of a Steel Hoe or Stone Hoe (which takes a rope to make, super good icing on that shit cake)
4-12 Bowls of dirt
4 Bowls of water

Stone Hoe
1 Long Shaft @60 Min respawn time
1 Sharp Stone
1 Rope
2-5 Ropes per hoe before breaking -1 Rope to remake hoe (To save dirt and to till 1 bowl of dirt for every one rope you make you use one rope to make another hoe ~ at that rate consumption of sharp rocks is actually a thing let alone the shafts)

Steel Hoe
1 Long Shaft @60 Min respawn time
1 Iron + 1 lump coal
6-13 Ropes per hoe before break

Not considering all the time it takes to grow it - how long it might take to find a seed if people weren't being good before you, it's already daunting how costly a piece of rope is. I mean come on man, its freaking rope.

/endrant I agree we need a good solution and that is not it.

pein wrote:

takes quite a while to make one right now
especially if we supposed to make rooms too
i would like boards as walls, maybe a new way to cut butt log into long boards which would cover more tiles

If the resource of time is low - using a resource that the other needs won't help. You need the boards to make the rooms, and now they would compete even more.

pein wrote:

also, pine pens would be nice, i posted on other topic, how i imagine it, its jut mango or pine trees around in a box shape with some stones on bottom so it wont block the view south side.
The downside is the long growth time so you wont see in your lifetime

Doesn't that kill it right there? You are talking not having a pen up for 60+X minutes from the start of a camp, X being how long the eve has had before you were born. Another way to look at is, that if I was an eve and when I was dying of old age and there wasn't sheep already going, my last words would not be goodbye, they would be see you soon.

pein wrote:

Branches are op out of their biome, as that was quite limiting factor in a few camps, but pine is just for firewood, so just a bit of saving on transport, also in real life pines grow faster than most of the other trees, what about a 50 min growth timer? if you plant trees before age 10 you would see them grow out.

A lot of maple trees grow roughly the same rate as pine trees, they might grow for longer to a greater height, but from sapling to tree it's not that far off. Honestly the timers feel off, 1 hour to grow a tree and one hour for you to get one more branch from it? Either slash the growth timer or vice versa and cut down branch regrow timings. You'd need everyone to be on top of picking branches as they are walking by to heavily exploit a 30min branch timer, and extra shafts aren't going to drastically change the state of the game, we might possibly start making animal pens out of fences or something (would be a huge buff to charcoal, but is kindling scarcity ever a thing?)

So we need something that isn't in direction competition with other needs. Possibly could be another turnout from a butt log so every tree has them, but then competes, and what tool? Don't want another tool, nothing else makes sense, froe is boards, adze is mallet, saw is for disks. I suppose you could do Froe>New Beams>Saw>Boards but then you'd gate boards behind a saw which is another decent step. You need a chisel, a bow, goose, file and blade blank before you can make a saw, rather than just needing and adze and a froe. Reverse it maybe? Using a saw on boards would give fence kit instead of adze on two shafts. Already this is getting convoluted and require changing a few things, and makes me weary.

Best solution - Pine Trees. Make it redder in color and a little longer than the other logs to tell them apart. They would be gated behind an axe, and using a froe would yield two pine beams, which then could be turned into a fence kit. Beams could definitely be used for a lot of further tech down the road as well to give them more uses other than just fences. Keep the mechanics of building a fence, with using the shovel to dig a hole. Add in a Pitchfork that's two uses are to move poop and thresh wheat and we call it a day.

Pretty sure that kills like 4 birds with one stone or more. Potatoes do not compete with compost, graves do not compete with compost, removing stumps and rocks do not compete with compost, digging up adobe does not compete with compost, removing clay pits for building space does not compete with compost.... I really should have counted before starting to type all that came to mind.

breezeknight · 2019-03-09 09:39:21

@pein

since you are undoubtedly meanwhile the expert on sheep pens

could you be so kind & make a guide how to make as simple as possible sheep pen out of actual fences ?
additionally what are the best options for its doors, which solution is the least prone to griefing ?

to expand that thought,
i am also highly interested in town planning

where to put a center ?
what had to be the center of a town ?
should there be a center ?
how well do towns function which have no center ?
where to put a sheep pen ?
where wheat farm ?
carrot field ?
how many carrot rows for how many people ?
how should the main roads be layed out ?
what relation is to be drawn between roads & wells ?
where should be placed the nursery ? near a bakery ? near a berry farm ?
where to place the forge ? does it have to be separate from the pottery ?
what are successful designs of the berry field ? do towns with several berry fields do better than with one ?
...
questions upon questions

- - -

futurebird · 2019-03-09 14:48:06

I spent most of a life putting floor boards around a soup garden someone else had made. At the top I wanted to put 3 boxes. But, of course there is no rope. There is never any rope. So, I planted a HUGE milkweed garden. Enough for the 3 rope I would need (12 milkweed) plus 24 extra for anyone else who might need it.

I come back after gather boards and this young guy is rapidly taking the last of the milk weed! So, I say "I planted all this need three rope bad" He, was nice enough to give me the rope, but where did the rest go so quickly lol?

Anyway I make the boxes and come back to find the two have been turned in to sledges! I was mad, but I had not put anything in them yet so... it was understandable. They were both made in to carts. More useful for the village in the end.

I made the last box a chest, put the tools in it before I died. I hope it made making soup easy for someone.

breezeknight · 2019-03-09 15:23:55

yeah, since milkweed has been nerfed i nearly never plant milkweed anymore
it's highly ungratifying now
& i liked to plant before lots of milkweed farms

the rope situation is quite irritating

- - -

pein · 2021-06-27 18:32:34

breezeknight wrote:

@pein
since you are undoubtedly meanwhile the expert on sheep pens
could you be so kind & make a guide how to make as simple as possible sheep pen out of actual fences ?
additionally what are the best options for its doors, which solution is the least prone to griefing ?

to expand that thought,
i am also highly interested in town planning
where to put a center ?
what had to be the center of a town ?
should there be a center ?
how well do towns function which have no center ?
where to put a sheep pen ?
where wheat farm ?
carrot field ?
how many carrot rows for how many people ?
how should the main roads be layed out ?
what relation is to be drawn between roads & wells ?
where should be placed the nursery ? near a bakery ? near a berry farm ?
where to place the forge ? does it have to be separate from the pottery ?
what are successful designs of the berry field ? do towns with several berry fields do better than with one ?
...
questions upon questions
- - -

might not be what you expect but: find a few trees that are in a straight line, make adobe base pen, 1x3 enough, also you get the mouflon locked for later, trap a sheep, make a saddle, get a horse, run around and collect the branches 2 by 2. actually faster than going on foot, you can also plant trees and use branches later

fast, secure, scalable (just like crypto lol). choose two as Buterin would say lifes are too short, so speed is the key
you need a pro player to do a proper pen and it takes a full life, or 2 medium skill and you still need water and iron so managing workers is hard without planning
security falls when speed is key, and most people try to save time on it, there is griefing, and accidental damage. not much you can do about griefers, since everything is removable, only a few materials can be used. the safest is ancient stone and waystone corners. but since you rely on the compost and farms, water and iron, you cant have a safe pen, since you cant have a safe town. one safety measure is separating the mouflon and locking it up/hiding it or both, so you can get a lamb any time.
most people just trust in others sympathy and thats it, griefers will go for the simplest, fastest exploit, so if you make walls strong, they just kill all the sheep. thats why using some non conventional materials can work.
the accidental damage is also a problem, when two things interact, people make mistakes. if its a bush in corner, they eat the berry, if its a box in wall, they drag it away, if its a corner that keeps sheep in, they remove it to make a road.
safe choices can be also time consuming, like you can lock away a lamb but then you got to get a key, lock in, lock out, hide key every time.
scalability is the other aspect not many people consider: early game you are fine with a tiny pen of 2x2 even, or using trees as walls, or adobe base walls. function over form, later you can extend and make it fancy if you choose location correctly.
the best location is in a corner, since you got waste products, you need to take the bones out but not too far, usually people used an ice biome or desert, but now is race locked, you gotta think about others too when locking out items in biomes. still it has to be a corner, 2 sides facing the town and two facing empty space. you want easy access for feeding and for compost making.
Front entrances are scalable, corners are complicated to expand normally.

x****x ********
*oxxo* **xxxxx**
*x**x* *xx***xx*
*x**x* xo*****ox
*oxxo* *xx***xx*
x****x **xxxxx**
the first is a corner entrance pen, since its not blocking any more, 2 entrances are fine, but it costs the same to have 4 and is more symmetric, only that you need more corner items then. front entrances can be extended easily sideways, while corner ones would block the exits if you build around it.
front entrances are a bit more expensive. the normal cost is lengthx2+heightx2+4corners, the most space for resources is when length=height, so square pens. the ratio of walls/usable tiles is better with bigger pens, as the sides need 1 wall, corners need 3, and center needs no wall. since you cant skip corners (only if you build next to a room) your only saving is making it bigger and have more center tiles.
the gates are easily griefeable and i would always add extra protection with corner tiles, also saves time to keep it open.
airlocks are the worst kind of entrances, it just never works, since the animals constantly scan for tiles can go to so they just run out.
open field flock never works cause they wander away too far when the village dies. not sure if you can still store naked sheep in small biomes, that was handy.

thats what Yah did better, two branches per cut out tree, so you can make a lot of shafts right away when cutting out any forest

a center would be a place where people spend most time, which is usually food, clothing and empty space, something fancy
but overall depends on the type of players what is a centre
noobs hang out in the berry field, a bit more evolved players hang out in the kitchen
the best center is flooring. if you can make flooring, people cant plant on it, and if it looks good, people wont ruin it. if you put stew there, and show how to eat it, it can be more effective than other foods.
so if you do a 6x6 flooring for example then surround by proper fences and plant some trees. if people see flooring, they make rooms so you might as well do a room above then flooring.

i think is important to have an identity for each town, people enjoy a bit of unique flair, and remember when they go back
everyone wants to have fun so creativity is key, at least indirectly. in reality, a few players do everything and its upon them if it becomes a good town or not.

wheat farm can be near the bakery and the bakery can be near the pen, ideally rabbit side, but secondary pen and secondary ovens arent bad either. make them rabbit pies separately and mutton pies separately. its not that hard transporting wheat, its just getting the grain can be a problem as its easier to produce than consume it. so it has to be the edge of town also.

ideally people shouldnt eat carrot at all, can go anywhere, except in a sheep pen. only full rows are eaten by sheep tho.
since you got 7 seeds, 8 tiles is enough, but i prefer watering some later on so people dont have time to eat it.
you can prep the 8 tiles beforehand and just leave the seed unwatered.

you dont need a road inside a city, all i ever saw using roads are lazy rpers running around mindlessly. you could technically do pine roads just to connect things, or board signs too but just too much time for not much benefit. paper and waystones arent bad tho, to give instructions and directions.

a useful road is one that goes to an iron pit or to another city. with paver you can make a lot of roads, than it can go anywehere. but most people dont like roads inside the city, it just takes away so much space and people leave a mess around it. in any case, not right next to the walls, free space is the most advanced technology, a city can have you got to drop down things so empty space is good to have around roads. maybe paralell pine roads both sides of a road then it looks better and more functional.

nursery is kind of a useless thing, usually there arent that many babies and they prefer going around and watching what you do. but if you really want to make one, not inside the kitchen but next to it. a center can be for babies where they see more and like 6x6 pine floor to prevent planting. or 7x7 and use some stone and trees around. buildings with no function just take away space. fancy fences are also good if you dont want babies to run around. but i dont like forcing them to stay.
ideally you dont want berries next to it and you should really explain what they should eat, popcorn, even carrot pies are way more effective than berries.

forge should be away from the crowd as it needs expertise to make tools and time matters, so in any case, shouldnt be under the berry field or between bakery and something, when people run around and cover is annoying. and there is nothing people should do in a forge if they arent good at it, if they wanna test their skills build another one. Working is more effective if there isnt litter all around, just things that you need.

The original forge can be used for pottery, in the swamp ideally, lot of people consider the forge as a village center as its the first sign of civilized towns with any future to prevail. So making a second far away is a good idea. A lots of noobs build roads to it or randomly plant berries 3 tiles away from it. So might be a good idea to place pine floors around and extend it a lot. There are different styles of smithing, where to put forges, up down, spacing, etc. that i understand, but walls 1-2 tiles away are too annoying, open forges are usually better, if you want to put in a room, make it huge.

Sadly, there are too many bad players who can only munch berries. So you cannot avoid it completely, and cannot explain to eat something else. Sometimes you need that noobs to survive and have pro babies. And its convenient to eat berries, lots of people starve if they dont see any bush.

That being said, its still real bad for compost and water, so limiting it is effective if you want longer survival.
For example put excessive flooring around it, 3x3 then 3x3 floor then 3x3, or double wide pine roads.

i would say that a far away pen with a cistern and a small berry field is good if you can prevent people eating there, and have stew or pies ready. i guess a few bushes in each corner of the town would be better than a big central field, because people will explore and hard to go back and forth the middle. Thats why is good to have dedicated home markers with a sharp and a round stone to cut and remake.
Also some 3x3 stone flooring filled with food so people can eat there instead of ineffective walk or ineffective eating. But that needs better food distribution system and better signaling on foods. Ideally each work area has a closeby food reserve.

In general, huge berry fields do better, but die out quickly, while you would only need like 9 bushes to feed the sheep, often times you need 18-27 and people still be like 'no fod, i plent more bushes instead of fixing the ones we already got'. Ideally, you have to force people to eat something else. They still gonna find a way to be selfish aholes and act morally superior despite of it, but if you build a generic town, no pro player gonna stay and 30 noobs dont do as much as 2-3 good players.

If you can put all berries from bushes into bowls and the other person can put soil and water on each, you will see how hard is to run out of berries. OFc if people let it rot, and keep 1 on each, will be 8 minutes of no harvest. But more bushes wont mean more food, just more work and more water need. A constant income from a few bushes is better than a big harvest from many.

Last edited by pein (2021-07-17 18:14:57)

Spoonwood · 2021-06-29 00:32:59

Pein,

It's good to see you around as always. Also, keep in mind that I'm not against necros as a sort of rule. They definitely have their uses. But, Breezeknight hasn't made a post since December of 2019. That's a year and a half ago now. Maybe Breezeknight still reads the forums from time to time, but I'm guessing that's unlikely. Have I missed some reason to respond to a post with a comment apparently intended for someone who will never read your writing? I mean if Breezeknight will never even read a single word of your comment and you intended it as a response to his comment, what effect were you going for with your long comment? I have a hard time imagining you would have desired effect of your writing in this case.

pein · 2021-07-17 18:31:06

Spoonwood wrote:

Pein,
It's good to see you around as always. Also, keep in mind that I'm not against necros as a sort of rule. They definitely have their uses. But, Breezeknight hasn't made a post since December of 2019. That's a year and a half ago now. Maybe Breezeknight still reads the forums from time to time, but I'm guessing that's unlikely. Have I missed some reason to respond to a post with a comment apparently intended for someone who will never read your writing? I mean if Breezeknight will never even read a single word of your comment and you intended it as a response to his comment, what effect were you going for with your long comment? I have a hard time imagining you would have desired effect of your writing in this case.

lol you really not
others can read it too
long is kinda relative, ask your gf
actually this mechanic havent changed ever since unlike some other post they necroed and dont even make sense to answer them

Spoonwood · 2021-07-18 23:44:09

pein wrote:

long is kinda relative, ask your gf

This did make me laugh. I still wonder if breezeknight will ever read your comment, but at least now it seems that you've clarified that you care about the mechanic enough that even if he doesn't read it, that's not a big deal.

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