JASON! You need to fix the area ban!

Toxic · 2019-03-09 15:37:33

This is a direct report to Jason. Anyone here can also give there opinions on this. So I made an eve village. I lived that whole life and ended up dieng with a bunch of food but no babies. I think I only had like 1 girl and 1 boy that whole time. The one girl /die on me and the boy ran off. I was wondering what the problem was. I spawned in a another village and went to get some iron. I walked north west and saw a branch on floor so I investigated. I walked a bit and there it was my eve village. Then I understood that this was all because of the area ban. My village was close to a megacity so when someone Lived A substantial life in a megacity they got banned in my lineage or area to. I’m also starting to suspect that if someone /die in the megacity they also get banned in my lineage. This is a huge problem please fix it. I think eves should spawn away from the spawn of another city or at least the area of ban should be reduced.

Peremptive · 2019-03-09 15:53:03

yeah well, the game has a few rules for where new eves spawn that currently don't make sense. Eves seem to spawn following the Eve spiral, but also close to placed markers. The Eve spiral is probably not that bad, but placed markers mean the eve village competes directly with settlements close to it for players allowed to play in the area.

lionon · 2019-03-09 15:57:02

If you want to have your post read, you should start it with "An open letter to"

Toxic · 2019-03-09 16:08:52

lionon wrote:

If you want to have your post read, you should start it with "An open letter to"

As long as the community knows about this it’s fine. Open letters are not my way of starting.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-09 16:23:24

Toxic wrote:

lionon wrote:
If you want to have your post read, you should start it with "An open letter to"
As long as the community knows about this it’s fine. Open letters are not my way of starting.

Don't worry, I think that was intended as a joke. If they were being serious, they would have encouraged you to post it to the official suggestions reddit.

ryanb · 2019-03-09 16:43:21

+1 on either shrinking the area ban or going back to lineage ban. Not only is area ban bad for Eves and early settlements, it is also bad for people who want to play in a city.

If someone spawns to an Eve near a city and does /die then they will never spawn in that city. It may be the only active city on the server.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-09 16:56:12

it sees there's been way too many Eves and not enough babies in camps since this went into effect. It's very frustrating.

I'm honestly not sure what perceived problem there was with the previous system. Presumably that people don't get born into the same multi-lineage city.

The other thing though is people don't travel that far. I tried to start a camp yesterday, had three boys and two girls, one of whom suicided, only girl died.

Absolutely beautiful spot, never had a food problem, amazing soil and water.

But i couldn't have been more than 250-500 tiles away from my original camp, and the rabbits etc were newly spawning. A great deal of players never go far out of town. In 12 generations in the city I was the first person to travel north, and no farther north than i would have gone on a normal iron run. 2000 tiles [which I believe is the current area ban] is ridiculously excessive. i think the premise is service equally well with fewer problems with a 500 tile max area ban.

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-09 17:53:25

Yes, this needs some work, I think.

The Eve spiral goes round and round, and as it comes back around, it may intersect with where people have actually set up a city.

I heard that people were using multiple lineages in the same city as a way to keep working on their projects life after life. This is not good. That is not the point of the game. The point of the game is passing on what you worked on when you die! That is pretty much the only point of this game. Otherwise, it would just be 2D Minecraft.

Also, apparently, griefers were using this to come back again after being murdered.

Now, maybe the distance-based lineage ban is too large. It probably shouldn't be larger that the "hop" on the eve spiral. It's the weekend, and I can't look at this now. Can someone check the code and server settings? What is the current eve sprial spacing, and what is the current lineage ban spacing? Do they make sense together?

If not, please post an Issue on github, and I will fix it next week.

Tarr · 2019-03-09 18:05:39

jasonrohrer wrote:

I heard that people were using multiple lineages in the same city as a way to keep working on their projects life after life. This is not good. That is not the point of the game. The point of the game is passing on what you worked on when you die! That is pretty much the only point of this game. Otherwise, it would just be 2D Minecraft.

I don't think anyone had actually started transplanting second lineages into a town to continue working so much as on server reset having multiple lineages due to everyone closely spawning together around a town. You turned the absolute best time to play the game into the absolute worst because the game devolves into constant Evedom due to being dumped further out because you cannot spawn anywhere near the original Eves or their camps. You used to get a nice interaction between different families while now you're better off just killing anyone in your surrounding area.

You shouldn't have to look at the stdout file to know if you're getting bad births because you aren't taking advantage of yum/temperature or if there's a huge city outside of your normal exploring range. I have no idea why you put all the work into shrinking the spiral if you were going to do a complete 180 and make it much less viable for two towns to exist in the same general area. The only time the area ban works is when the spiral spits people far enough away from each other to prevent towns from choking each other out which means Eves have to make sure they're nowhere near another camp and pray that every Eve after herself suicides to stop encroachment on her spawning area.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-09 18:18:37

i'd like to see some population based ban, something that cared for both area and lineages.

something like:
x distance around a female counts as her population area
players get line banned separately fo each line as they were before
soft ban if too much time was spent by a player inside a female's area

do twins still work to bypass bans?

Tarr · 2019-03-09 18:20:45

Nope, the twins/trips/quads avoiding bans has thankfully been fixed.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-09 18:37:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

I heard that people were using multiple lineages in the same city as a way to keep working on their projects life after life. This is not good. That is not the point of the game. The point of the game is passing on what you worked on when you die! That is pretty much the only point of this game.

I appreciate your vision, as to the point of this game, however, if that is your concern, why in the world did you implement airplanes that transport you to another civ? Especially as unless i'm mistaken, lineage ban is still in effect. So this means, if someone gets in a plane and moves to a new civ, their kids will be banned from both lines, in perpetuity if they stay in that village.

Also, just for an idea of how bad this has gotten. The other day- and I should have screencapped it- lineage server showed THREE Eves who died at 60 at the same second (and, another about a minute behind them). Granted, something could have been screwy, being tested, etc and that's still highly improbable, three people logging in at the same time and being made Eve and living to 60. I didn't check back to see how things looked when their kids died, but what chance did those camps have, if anyone who lived to 30 or /died was banned from all three of them, competing for kids at the exact same time?

Maybe one solution is not only a smaller area ban distance, but lineage ban DOESNT apply if you are a certain distance away. For example, lineage ban doesn't apply to family members over 1000 tiles from your birth location [death location would seem more logical, except then people would just ride a horse 1000 tiles away before death or whatever]. a small number of people have figured out mapping etc, but the great majority of players are unlikely to ever find a civ 1000 tiles from them. I go on iron expeditions all the time and rarely find anyone (though it definitely happens) When I do find people, they're always unaware of my civ's existence.

Tarr · 2019-03-09 19:02:39

fragilityh14 wrote:

I appreciate your vision, as to the point of this game, however, if that is your concern, why in the world did you implement airplanes that transport you to another civ? Especially as unless i'm mistaken, lineage ban is still in effect. So this means, if someone gets in a plane and moves to a new civ, their kids will be banned from both lines, in perpetuity if they stay in that village.

Lineage ban was replaced by the now blanket area ban based off where you were born. The weeks longest line is derived from where I explicitly left my city and moved to a second city around gen 41 iirc. Moving enables you to avoid the ban but you'll end up competing with the locals as now instead of having a smaller banned pool the ban is extended to anyone who has been in that recent area. All he has ended up doing is making it so you don't live in your village but move to a second nearby village to work then be born there next life or so.

fragilityh14 wrote:

Also, just for an idea of how bad this has gotten. The other day- and I should have screencapped it- lineage server showed THREE Eves who died at 60 at the same second (and, another about a minute behind them). Granted, something could have been screwy, being tested, etc and that's still highly improbable, three people logging in at the same time and being made Eve and living to 60. I didn't check back to see how things looked when their kids died, but what chance did those camps have, if anyone who lived to 30 or /died was banned from all three of them, competing for kids at the exact same time?

Are you sure those Eves weren't just twins/trips/quads? If so these sort of camps suffer from more competition between families but can generally get more done than a solo Eve will in her lifetime without cheesing the area ban timer.

fragilityh14 wrote:

Maybe one solution is not only a smaller area ban distance, but lineage ban DOESNT apply if you are a certain distance away. For example, lineage ban doesn't apply to family members over 1000 tiles from your birth location [death location would seem more logical, except then people would just ride a horse 1000 tiles away before death or whatever]. a small number of people have figured out mapping etc, but the great majority of players are unlikely to ever find a civ 1000 tiles from them. I go on iron expeditions all the time and rarely find anyone (though it definitely happens) When I do find people, they're always unaware of my civ's existence.

I do a lot and I mean a lot of iron runs myself and I think I've found a nearby city/civ/camp like three times total. The area ban definitely should be smaller considering that I've seen places choked to death while having plenty of resources which is just silly. It at least made sense when you were competing with an outpost for babies since generally you know where that is compared to some semi-close city you have no idea existing sucking up all the babies.

Shallotte · 2019-03-09 19:07:00

Toxic wrote:

This is a direct report to Jason. Anyone here can also give there opinions on this. So I made an eve village. I lived that whole life and ended up dieng with a bunch of food but no babies. I think I only had like 1 girl and 1 boy that whole time. The one girl /die on me and the boy ran off. I was wondering what the problem was. I spawned in a another village and went to get some iron. I walked north west and saw a branch on floor so I investigated. I walked a bit and there it was my eve village. Then I understood that this was all because of the area ban. My village was close to a megacity so when someone Lived A substantial life in a megacity they got banned in my lineage or area to. I’m also starting to suspect that if someone /die in the megacity they also get banned in my lineage. This is a huge problem please fix it. I think eves should spawn away from the spawn of another city or at least the area of ban should be reduced.

Yeah. Thats a problem...

I don't agree with lineage/area bans. It defeats the purpose of the game to simulate real life. And defeats the purpose of vehicle travel and bell towers entirely. But there SHOULD be consequences for purposefully disconnecting yourself or killing yourself before you become a teenager. Because thats *actually* how these players exploit the system to respawn back where they were. Not because there are multiple other families there.

Even with lineage bans, people are just going to kill themselves until they get back to their late game settlements. That's the real problem. And It's super annoying in general when you are in the early game starting from scratch(the best part, IMO. Late game is sort of boring. Everything is already made) and your settlement dies because all the players spawning in, just disconnect their way into a better village.

In my start up village, I had six children. 4 of which were girls, and they all disconnected/suicided, becoming skeletons or running away from me(why are babies that fast anyway???) except one boy and one girl. My mother(Eve) had several more and all of them did the same thing. In the end, it was just me(who was past fertility) and my son, who was literally functionally unable to carry our genes elsewhere(If this was real life; he was well enough and young enough to travel and attempt to find someone to bear his children with our family name; but no system is in place for that)- so in our frustration, our game and lineage just ended with nothing we could do about it. Which means to the game, that we failed and our genes went extinct. So Lineage/area bans are functionally useless to stop those players.

I still think it would be better for there to be a fathering system, where a male and female of no relation within a nearby radius of a player will be credited as the mother and father(players that spawn in without no-relation males around, should spawn in without fathers as normal). With the child taking on the fathers name and continuing that line. Eventually Big cities would become multicultural, until the nuke button is pushed and we are all back to being Eve's with nothing. That's the beauty of the game. It's survival of your genes. But if you are born a male, you literally are functionally unimportant(other than for physical labor) and contribute nothing to your family tree. And thats a crying shame.

So why stop whats going to inevitably happen? The point of the game is to build society from the ground up(and then nuke it to the ground); and society is eventually created by merging with other families. And players will naturally gravitate to connecting villages whether a ban is in place or not. So I don't think familial ban is very smart way to deal with the problem(perhaps reduced fertility if there is too many players in one spot).

I would instead implement punishments for people who repeatedly suicide and disconnect as children. The game clearly recognizes when a disconnect has occured(leaving a skeleton baby in your hands) and Babies/newborns should really not run that fast to be able to escape in the first place. If you are an eve and have too many kids at once and no food... and they can't run that fast... that is reality of a survival situation IRL. You take one baby(probably the female ones, since males are genetically worthless rn) and try to survive with the one to continue your genes. Thats the point.

Last edited by Shallotte (2019-03-09 20:08:43)

Whatever · 2019-03-09 19:20:37

lineage ban and especially area ban sucks !
i agree.

Shallotte wrote:

I don't agree with lineage bans. It defeats the purpose of the game to simulate real life. And defeats the purpose of vehicle travel and bell towers entirely.

Yes ! Why would you go to a town where you cant get kids? Also it is really weird that you getting kids depends on where you are.
Please Jason dont area ban people. The disadvantages of that are much greater than the advantages.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-09 19:23:59

oh, yeah, i thought lineage ban was also still in effect, and forgot that eves can be triplets, which I guess was a majorly exploitable issue under lineage bans, which area ban deals with. I'm not convinced twins should be allowed to Eve, but I suppose thats another issue entirely.

So, i guess most of what I said is just wrong and i was misunderstanding the changes, all i really know then, is that there have been more Eves producing shorter lines since the area ban was put into effect. At least, that's what I've observed from looking at the lineage server, i don't have any data about numbers of eves and average length of family lines.

Tarr · 2019-03-09 20:03:46

Shallotte wrote:

Even with lineage bans, people are just going to kill themselves until they get back to their late game settlements. That's the real problem. And It's super annoying in general when you are in the early game starting from scratch(the best part, IMO. Late game is sort of boring. Everything is already made) and your settlement dies because all the players spawning in, just disconnect their way into a better village.

That's the biggest thing as long as Jason leaves some sort of exploit for someone like myself to use I'm going to use it. Area ban? Just spawn somewhere close and move to a second place to actually play instead of playing in the original area. Lineage ban after thirty minutes? Suicide at 29 to get the extra time in the lineage. All he ends up doing is hurts the normal players while people like myself are going to play the way we enjoy anyways. I've played what 1600 hours at this point? I don't enjoy sheep farming, I don't enjoy watering berries. I enjoy pushing up the tech tree as fast as possible, I enjoy theorycrafting on how we can make a better village, I enjoy seeing how much iron I can manage to bring a city in my allowed one hour. Hell, sometimes I even enjoy making useless ass buildings.

The point being people will play however they want at the end of the day. Why care so much that people want to spend time in one place when it's all going to be lost the next day anyways? I would understand if we still had eve chaining around where cities didn't risk dying but why care if someone wants to blow a few hours having fun in one city? Jason can do as much as he wants to try to limit it but where there is a will there is a way.

Daffex · 2019-03-09 20:19:46

I took a horse and went looking for other civs. 45 minutes later NOTHING. NOT A SAUSAGE.

First time that has ever happened.

Shallotte · 2019-03-09 20:31:05

Tarr wrote:

Shallotte wrote:
Even with lineage bans, people are just going to kill themselves until they get back to their late game settlements. That's the real problem. And It's super annoying in general when you are in the early game starting from scratch(the best part, IMO. Late game is sort of boring. Everything is already made) and your settlement dies because all the players spawning in, just disconnect their way into a better village.
That's the biggest thing as long as Jason leaves some sort of exploit for someone like myself to use I'm going to use it. Area ban? Just spawn somewhere close and move to a second place to actually play instead of playing in the original area. Lineage ban after thirty minutes? Suicide at 29 to get the extra time in the lineage. All he ends up doing is hurts the normal players while people like myself are going to play the way we enjoy anyways. I've played what 1600 hours at this point? I don't enjoy sheep farming, I don't enjoy watering berries. I enjoy pushing up the tech tree as fast as possible, I enjoy theorycrafting on how we can make a better village, I enjoy seeing how much iron I can manage to bring a city in my allowed one hour. Hell, sometimes I even enjoy making useless ass buildings.
The point being people will play however they want at the end of the day. Why care so much that people want to spend time in one place when it's all going to be lost the next day anyways? I would understand if we still had eve chaining around where cities didn't risk dying but why care if someone wants to blow a few hours having fun in one city? Jason can do as much as he wants to try to limit it but where there is a will there is a way.

No one is saying that you can't leave the village and look for a bigger one. People IRL leave their families to start new ones or join bigger communities. That's like... a natural thing. The issue is that players with your play style actively disconnect from villages that are struggling, and it kills off entire lineages. And the problem is that MOST people seem to be doing that, not just a few, which defeats the games purpose.

You end up with these megacommunities that have a monopoly of the entire server. And it sucks the fun out of people who like connecting and building up new villages(like me).

Again, people with your style of play wouldn't be a huge issue if Males could carry their genes by striking out and looking for Eve's or other female players of no relation... but the system doesn't exist. So we end up with situations like mine, where everyone on the server refuses to start from scratch; and kills themselves on purpose. Eventually leaving us with only able bodied males and infertile females. Which sabotages smaller family lines like the one I had entirely(Nothing is worse than realizing your villages fertility is dead because of RNG).

And in this game; that's called game throwing. You are actively choosing to kill yourself to exploit the rebirth function in a game about teamwork, survival and carrying genes.

And although I can understand why you do it(you like the late gameplay), the fact remains that if Jason released a punishment(such as being able to report peoples bones/corpses, or issuing bans for repeated disconnects)- he would be justified in doing so because you are exploiting the technicalities of the game, which is causing population and power imbalances. Sure, it won't stop everyone. But it would stop enough people.

Last edited by Shallotte (2019-03-09 21:14:35)

Toxic · 2019-03-09 23:57:45

There are a lot of fixes that can change this. Either the spiral needs to be changed or the radius reduced. Everytime I start and eve village I check the stdout and nearly always find a village with multiple people spawning within 2000 tiles, this makes it almost impossible to walk away from that city and find a safe place to build a village.

BladeWoods · 2019-03-10 03:23:31

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, this needs some work, I think.
The Eve spiral goes round and round, and as it comes back around, it may intersect with where people have actually set up a city.
I heard that people were using multiple lineages in the same city as a way to keep working on their projects life after life. This is not good. That is not the point of the game. The point of the game is passing on what you worked on when you die! That is pretty much the only point of this game. Otherwise, it would just be 2D Minecraft.
Also, apparently, griefers were using this to come back again after being murdered.
Now, maybe the distance-based lineage ban is too large. It probably shouldn't be larger that the "hop" on the eve spiral. It's the weekend, and I can't look at this now. Can someone check the code and server settings? What is the current eve sprial spacing, and what is the current lineage ban spacing? Do they make sense together?
If not, please post an Issue on github, and I will fix it next week.

I found in this changelog
https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … ngeLog.txt

That the area-ban has a distance of 2000 tiles.
But Eve jumps in the spiral are only 250 tiles apart.
Far from every eve founds a successful village, so I don't think a 250 tile area-ban is necessary, but it still seems like the area-ban is far too large.
I'd suggest an area-ban of 750 tiles.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-03-11 16:42:25)

breezeknight · 2019-03-10 16:53:45

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, this needs some work, I think.
The Eve spiral goes round and round, and as it comes back around, it may intersect with where people have actually set up a city.
I heard that people were using multiple lineages in the same city as a way to keep working on their projects life after life. This is not good. That is not the point of the game. The point of the game is passing on what you worked on when you die! That is pretty much the only point of this game. Otherwise, it would just be 2D Minecraft.
Also, apparently, griefers were using this to come back again after being murdered.
Now, maybe the distance-based lineage ban is too large. It probably shouldn't be larger that the "hop" on the eve spiral. It's the weekend, and I can't look at this now. Can someone check the code and server settings? What is the current eve sprial spacing, and what is the current lineage ban spacing? Do they make sense together?
If not, please post an Issue on github, and I will fix it next week.

thank you for the clarification what the meta goal of the game is
meets my way to play it

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-03-10 17:43:48

I think setting it at 1000 rather than 2000 would be a quick easy fix to this right? At least for now.

The eve system has definitely taken a slight hit from this. Ive seen a couple eve camps die gen 2 or 3 because they probably happened to be in the vicinity of a 2k ban from a town and just didn't get ANY births.

1k seems like a better solution. A viable eve spot might be 500 tiles from another one, so you could even make an argument for it being set at 500 with the only drawback being ground iron competition between eve camps. But the ground iron competition already happens (pretty minutely) with the eve spiral points being 250 tiles diagonally from each other.

CrazyEddie · 2019-03-10 18:42:29

Jason wants towns to be far enough apart that being an Eve means you're on your own (i.e. you can't just walk into an established town), but close enough together that they can interact. At first Eve spawns were all clustered around one spot, but that ended up making them too close together. He tried a few different things and settled on the Eve Spiral, described here. At first the distance between subsequent Eve spawns was 1000 tiles, but it was reduced to 500 and then again to 250 which is where it is now.

I'm not sure why Jason reduced the Eve spiral spawn distance from 1000 to 500 to 250, other than he must have thought there wasn't enough interaction between towns. The changelog messages are "Eve placement adjusted to bring Eves twice as close together as before" and "Shrank next Eve jump to 250, down from 500. Smaller Eve spiral, more likely to be interaction between villages."

(And Jason, FYI, I checked: minRebirthDistance is currently 2000 and nextEveJump.ini is 250, so those values are current.)

Jason also wants you to not be able to live back-to-back lives in the same town. So he introduced the lineage ban. At the same time he also did something to prevent map-making; people had been using map-hacks to keep track of where they were and where the towns they'd been born into were, so that they could work in a town, die, get born somewhere in the wilderness, then travel back to their town. So he altered the client-server protocol to thwart learning your absolute location, making it impossible to travel back to some place you were in a previous life without using the bell. See here. In that post Jason makes his vision for the game very clear: he doesn't want you going back to work on "your" projects in "your" town because that's the exact opposite of what the game is about.

It's like Jason has written a symphony for an orchestra and people insist on playing it with a kazoo band.

Both of Jason's efforts in that post - frustrating map-makers and adding lineage bans - have been circumvented by Tarr and others. The lineage bans were worked around using multi-family towns, and the coordinate-blinding has been worked around by reading the relative coordinates of every player on the server in real-time and thus being able to identify the locations of towns (and specific people!) relative to your position.

This post by gondor2222 in the Bugs forum describes what's going on. Jason, you should probably be aware of this, and I'm betting you're not. As gondor mentions, you should probably filter out PLAYER_UPDATE messages server-side so that clients only receive updates for nearby players.

I think the concerns about the area ban are overblown and should be verified with data before shrinking the area ban distance. You should consider how far apart or close together you want towns to be, then check the lifelog data (for example, see this amazing visualization from Chard) to see whether the towns ARE in fact getting established as close or distant as you'd like. You can also check to see how often someone is prevented from getting a child due to the area ban, although you may have to add additional logging in the server code to capture that data. My bet is that it's nowhere near as often as people are griping about, and that the fertility issues people are reporting are just due to the same thing they've always been due to - server population falling during off hours.

If you shrink the area ban distance too much, people will just walk (or steal a horse and ride) back to "their" town. Is that the kind of interaction between towns that you want?

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2019-03-10 18:51:31)

CrazyEddie · 2019-03-10 19:01:04

Also, repeating what I said in this thread:

The region ban only changes things for the case where an Eve spawns near an established town. But that's not common. Yes, it happens, but it's not common.
And when it does happen, the effect is small. The pool of children available to the Eve camp is nearly as large as it would have been without the area ban; it includes everyone on the server except those that were recently in the Eve camp or in the nearby established town. But that's only a small proportion of the players on the server. There are numerous towns on the server, and most players will not be under an area ban from the nearby town because their recent lives will have been in the other towns.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-03-09 15:37:33

JASON! You need to fix the area ban!

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