Open later: Top cap for yum

DestinyCall · 2019-03-11 16:31:09

Spoonwood wrote:

The tier system above also does not account for yum at all, as perhaps as best illustrated by this comment
DestinyCall wrote:
Berry pies are in Tier 4 because berry pies are wasteful and there are much better pie options available. It is much better to eat rabbit pies and bowls of berries rather than berry pies.

The tiers consider mass-production and food efficiency so the most people can be fed at the least cost. A rabbit pie and a bowl of berries provides 86 pips spread across ten bites of food. A berry pie and cooked rabbit only provides 58 pips spread across five bites of food. This means that twice as many people can gain yum from the same ingredients, if you cook rabbit pies instead of berry pies. It is a better choice both with and without considering yum.

Yum bonus applies to all foods. Good food is better than bad food, so good food with yum bonus is better than bad food with yum bonus. In other words, a yum chain made from bad foods is worse than an equal length chain of good foods. So as long as there are good foods you have not eaten yet, it is better to focus on producing and consuming high efficiency food options, rather than foods that are costly or time-consuming to produce at scale. Increased food diversity can benefit the whole village, but only if you can provide enough food to feed many people. Fewer bites and small total food value and higher production costs (time/resourxes/labour) means some foods are much worse than other foods.

Trying to produce adequate mangos to feed a village would require a huge time and resource investment. Each crop requires an entire bucket of water, basket of dirt, and one full hour to yield just 8 mangos. This provides half as many pips as a rabbit pie and costs five times as much water (and one lifetime of waiting). That bucket of water could have helped water ten berry bushes and produced 350 pips in 12 minutes, instead of 144 pips in 60 minutes.

If you want to provide food variety to your village, there are better options available without messing around with mangos or berry pies. Most people will only be able to eat 15 to 25 unique foods in one lifetime, so there is no need to produce or consume all forty available foods in a single village. If you make the majority of the Tier 1 and 2 foods in large quantity, your village will not hunger and everyone can benefit from high yum.

pein · 2019-03-11 16:51:44

wasting others time isn't nice
people see a city and got expectations

yes grind out, nobody entitled to be fed, and to waste resources others gathered
i was today gen 3 and seen like 3 other players who focused on tech

then comes a chick who made a tiny adobe building around the oven when the newcommen hammer already was made

i was the only one who made compost and got wheat again ,as the guy used up all of it, even wasting the straws, people still died when we had no berries on top farm

spoon learn to read, i was talking about newcommen pumps left without water
90% of people don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend time on it
meanwhile a tank of kerozene gives you enough water for a whole generation, even if it's a grind to make it, it totally worth it
imagine one single pond in a badlands. that's totally viable with an engine
in like 2 hours i could make a better city elsewhere with tools and engine

yeah, kind of hard to believe, you who makes eggs on main fire to make 8 pies and a ar in one single life while babies run around the forge

most people i know try yumming once and got bored of it
ofc not the oens who don't learn from mistakes

Spoonwood · 2019-03-11 17:23:31

DestinyCall wrote:

The tiers consider mass-production and food efficiency so the most people can be fed at the least cost. A rabbit pie and a bowl of berries provides 86 pips spread across ten bites of food.

No it does not. Some glaring examples: eggs are tier two not tier one when eggs from goose ponds have only a kindling cost. Turkey slices also end up tier two also, when that's only kindling. Wild food also ends up mostly in tier 3, when it doesn't require water, soil, or kindling.

DestinyCall wrote:

A berry pie and cooked rabbit only provides 58 pips spread across five bites of food. This means that twice as many people can gain yum from the same ingredients, if you cook rabbit pies instead of berry pies. It is a better choice both with and without considering yum.

No, because of the problem of people finding yum foods around camp. Additionally, berry pies are better than rabbit pies when considering yum, because a player can increase their fertility probability with berry pies more easily if down 11 pips than with rabbit pies if down 11 pips.

DestinyCall wrote:

Yum bonus applies to all foods.

No, it does not. Yum bonus only applies to foods not already eaten in one yum's chain. That is not all foods. No one can yum on the first food, only the second food. So, there is no point for any player where the yum bonus applies to all foods.

DestinyCall wrote:

Good food is better than bad food, so good food with yum bonus is better than bad food with yum bonus.

There are no bad foods. Green beans is good for a yum spike. If you notice a fertility crisis when having a deficit of pips do NOT eat rabbit pie or mutton pie. Eat the green beans and then something else (unless you already ate green beans) if you've already eaten popcorn. If you're down 8 pips, popcorn, then green beans, and then something else makes for the best yum spike. That can be 3x more yum. Either rabbit pie or mutton pie would only be 1x yum.

DestinyCall wrote:

In other words, a yum chain made from bad foods is worse than an equal length chain of good foods.

No. You have to know what the player should/wants to do in the first place.

DestinyCall wrote:

So as long as there are good foods you have not eaten yet, it is better to focus on producing and consuming high efficiency food options, rather than foods that are costly or time-consuming to produce at scale.

Absolutely not. A bowl of green beans and popcorn should both be around every camp once they have dry beans to make more beans and dried out corn on the ground. That way there exists some way for players to quickly increase fertility if needed... or desired.

DestinyCall wrote:

Increased food diversity can benefit the whole village, but only if you can provide enough food to feed many people. Fewer bites and small total food value and higher production costs (time/resourxes/labour) means some foods are much worse than other foods.

No, it does not. That completely ignores fertility.

DestinyCall wrote:

Trying to produce adequate mangos to feed a village would require a huge time and resource investment. Each crop requires an entire bucket of water, basket of dirt, and one full hour to yield just 8 mangos. This provides half as many pips as a rabbit pie and costs five times as much water (and one lifetime of waiting). That bucket of water could have helped water ten berry bushes and produced 350 pips in 12 minutes, instead of 144 pips in 60 minutes.

Ugh. All those berries, WITHOUT cooking some berry based pies, suggests more berry munching and that doesn't work well for fertility.

DestinyCall wrote:

If you want to provide food variety to your village, there are better options available without messing around with mangos or berry pies.

Berry pies and other pies can get down before blacksmithing. Those other options come as much slower to produce than making 7 out of the 8 pie types.

DestinyCall wrote:

Most people will only be able to eat 15 to 25 unique foods in one lifetime, so there is no need to produce or consume all forty available foods in a single village.

Not all forty probably, but producing less means that if one of the foods runs out there exist fewer foods to yum. If more foods get produced, then if one or some run out, there still exist plenty of other foods to yum on. And one of those foods should be green beans, because it's good for spiking yum beating out everything but popcorn (and the mushroom... but drug effects, so I ignore that one).

DestinyCall wrote:

If you make the majority of the Tier 1 and 2 foods in large quantity, your village will not hunger and everyone can benefit from high yum.

The village can still experience fertility problems. Old men walking around being sad at a lack of no girls saying things like 'kill me now' to each other, will not benefit from high yum in the end if the women did not have high enough yum (and good enough temperature) to have children. Again, a bowl of green beans, and a bowl of popcorn, should pretty much always be around the camp for the women in case of such a crisis. Potatoes also make for a good food for that purpose, and they come as better than pies on trips often enough, given a decent yum chain.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-11 17:42:14

pein wrote:

90% of people don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend time on it

So what? I literally taught a streamer on Twitch the other day how to run a pump through *words*. If it had been in game, I could have taught him through showing him and hit could have been much faster. Oh, and I would have produced water in the process. Players can learn some or all of that from watching others also. It's nowhere near as complicated as making rubber or even making compost.

pein wrote:

meanwhile a tank of kerozene gives you enough water for a whole generation, even if it's a grind to make it, it totally worth it

I don't see how it's worth it if the lineage dies out from a lack of fertile girls.

pein wrote:

imagine one single pond in a badlands. that's totally viable with an engine

lol... Really? You need a few buckets of water to get the oil rig set up. It's five on average. The hammer has to get run at least once to make all the parts for the other attachments, 10 piston blanks, a large pulley, and a small pulley for the cam timing assembly. Then the roller needs run at least once for all the rods (one bucket of water for that comes as doable by one person). The bore needs run at least once for the pump valve jacket and other parts. And the lathe needs run at least once for a bunch of parts. Then the rig needs run to get crude oil. Hammer + Roller + Bore + Later + Rig = 5 machines. So, like 10 buckets of water assuming that each machine only gets used once. That completely ignores water used for farming or for growing trees. One pond resulting in a diesel engine? It's not impossible in principle *since stanchion kits from deep wells can now get removed*. Water regeneration can help. But, with a fair number of people that simply won't happen.

pein wrote:

in like 2 hours i could make a better city elsewhere with tools and engine

lol... your *hypothetical* city with lower yum, less food production (I mean... you said a one pond city to make a diesel water pump and in 2 hours... that's not much time for water regeneration) and almost surely fewer trees and less milkweed planted I would hardly describe as 'better'. And I don't mean my city now. I mean, when I completed my diesel water pump.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-11 18:57:05

Spoonwood, I've repeatedly told you that I'm talking about feeding an entire village. Not one person. Your responses are nonsensical.

I am not talking about a single woman who needs to "spike" her yum up quickly for fertility before the lineage dies out. If someone needs to increase their personal yum chain as high as possible in a short amount of time, of course they could make a limited run of berry pies and a bowl of green beans to quickly produce more food diversity from available resources, without regard for waste and more efficient alternatives. But that is NOT what I am talking about with the food tiers. I'm talking about what foods you should be producing and encouraging other people to produce to enable an entire village to yum (or not yum) in a good way. Fertility issues are only relevant to individual women who are interested in higher than average yum chains. Yumming for max fertility does not apply to the whole village. And being in a village where everyone else is working to maintain Tier 1/2 foods means it is even easier for fertile women and yumophiles to reach very high yum chains by making a small selection of "yum only" foods. But the majority of villagers shouldn't be cooking berry pies or eating raw corn and green beans.

Personally, I doubt most towns would benefit from producing these foods in advance, just in case of a sudden "fertility crisis" that requires an emergency yum boost. Perhaps on a low population server or during dead hours, when the average birth rate is low all the time. But even then, the lack of children is not something that happens suddenly and requires an emergency response. The only sudden part is when you suddenly notice your village has no girls left and you are two minutes from 40 years old so it is probably too late, no matter what you do.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Yum bonus applies to all foods.
No, it does not. Yum bonus only applies to foods not already eaten in one yum's chain. That is not all foods. No one can yum on the first food, only the second food. So, there is no point for any player where the yum bonus applies to all foods.

Yes. It does. Please listen to what I am actually saying here. Every kind of food can get used in a yum chain. You can build a chain using efficient Tier 1 and 2 foods or inefficient Tier 3 and 4 foods. Good foods or bad foods. As far as yum bonus is concerned, the length of the chain matters more than the foods that you are using to build the chain. If you build a +15 chain using only good foods, you gain the same cumulative yum bonus as if you had built that +15 yum chain with bad foods. BUT the bad chain costs your village more to produce and it will cost your village more to replace it. If you are considering optimal food production and consumption, you want to focus on making and EATING better foods, so the village can spend less time on food production and more time on other important things.

Bottom-line, if a food is only good if you have a high yum chain, it isn't a good food. Foods that are good without yum are even better WITH yum. Those are the kinds of food you want when improving food diversity in your village. In contrast, foods that are bad without yum should not be mass-produced. They cost too much time and resources to produce for general consumption by the village, especially when there are better options available.

....

Regarding why turkey and wild foods are not Tier 1 ... this is largely due to the simple fact that they are non-renewable. Once they are depleted from local biomes, it becomes progressively more costly in terms of time to gather them for your village. This is a hard limit that prevents these foods from being a good option for feeding an entire village long-term. Omelettes from wild eggs are good food for early camps, but they also require plates AND they cannot be stacked or stowed away in backpacks or baskets. If you have the ability to make pies, they are a better use for most of your plates, so omelette production in a more advanced village is fine, but it shouldn't be on the same scale as pie production. The costs in terms of raw resources might be small, but empty floor space is a limited resource in most villages.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-12 00:47:18)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-12 23:07:47

DestinyCall wrote:

Fertility issues are only relevant to individual women who are interested in higher than average yum chains. Yumming for max fertility does not apply to the whole village.

No they are not. They are relevant to any men, girls, or post fertility age women who care about the survival of the lineage. Yumming for increased fertility can get taught at least in part in a game.

DestinyCall wrote:

Yes. It does. Please listen to what I am actually saying here. Every kind of food can get used in a yum chain.

No. The first food eaten does not produce any yum whatsoever. Only the second type of food, and beyond that, eaten does produce yum. Thus, at no point can every food get used in a yum chain, as the yum chain only happens where there exists a different food from the last one (which is not breast milk). Also, a duplicate food does not produce any yum.

DestinyCall wrote:

Bottom-line, if a food is only good if you have a high yum chain, it isn't a good food.

No. Given a fertility crisis and being down a few pips, green beans outclass almost all foods and thus are a good food in that context. This is part of why there are no bad foods.

Additionally, no food is bad if no other foods lie around. Even a mushroom is better than starving to death, unless you're very old. So again, no bad foods exist.

DestinyCall wrote:

Foods that are good without yum are even better WITH yum.

No. Mutton pie is not all that great during a fertility crisis. It's just way too filling. Also, for anyone looking to raise their yum ASAP without overeating, anticipating their fertility period, mutton pie doesn't make for a good choice.

DestinyCall wrote:

Those are the kinds of food you want when improving food diversity in your village. In contrast, foods that are bad without yum should not be mass-produced. They cost too much time and resources to produce for general consumption by the village, especially when there are better options available.

Sigh... Mutton pie is not good with an extreme abundance of raw mutton around. Yes, that can happen. It might not just be an effect of low population play that I've seen that happen. Some other player thought it an effect of such players eating less, which implies that such could happen with a group of players who didn't overeat a lot (overeating is common, which I can tell from watching streams and knowing most of the pip values of foods off the top of my head). If that holds (and admittedly I don't know), cooked mutton can certainly be a superior choice to mutton pie even if only one of the two gets eaten.

DestinyCall wrote:

Regarding why turkey and wild foods are not Tier 1 ... this is largely due to the simple fact that they are non-renewable. Once they are depleted from local biomes, it becomes progressively more costly in terms of time to gather them for your village. This is a hard limit that prevents these foods from being a good option for feeding an entire village long-term. Omelettes from wild eggs are good food for early camps, but they also require plates AND they cannot be stacked or stowed away in backpacks or baskets. If you have the ability to make pies, they are a better use for most of your plates, so omelette production in a more advanced village is fine, but it shouldn't be on the same scale as pie production. The costs in terms of raw resources might be small, but empty floor space is a limited resource in most villages.

I don't agree with that part about omelettes from wild sources vs. pies. Get more clay and fire more plates. And floor space really isn't that limited.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-13 00:00:49

Your responses confuse me.

Are you purposefully misunderstanding what I am saying? Because I have a hard time believing that you still don't understand what I mean when I say "Every kind of food can get used in a yum chain." Or "Foods that are good without yum are even better with yum". Or "Yumming for max fertility does not apply to the whole village."

I am talking about providing food for an entire village, so why are you still talking about speed-yumming for fertility? It is a completely different topic.

Greep · 2019-03-13 00:08:31

Spoonwood, destiny, and pein fighting about yum. Almost like I've seen this thread before

pein · 2019-03-13 00:12:47

he has a fetish about something everyone else disregards, thought better to kill it before it lays eggs

mensrea · 2019-03-13 00:32:25

My observations with yum are that it affects my self-interested or town-centered motivations. The yum side-game is somewhat an experienced cook mechanic. Prior to playing the yum game, I would spawn and run around the camp and try to observe what it needed most or what may be critical and missing. For instance, a lack of water is a critical town problem. I would go seek out the resources to fix the problem.

The yum game is very individual-centered behavior. Instead of fixing the town's problem, instead I can try to outlive it, with the yum game. When all the stupid people are dead from starvation, the smart live on. The town is so much more pleasant when the stupid are dead. I greatly benefit from that aspect as it appeals to me to sometimes play in a self-interested way, valuing my survival or goals over the needs of the town.

One reason to use yum is to enhance your survivability. In the event of famine, you are more likely to survive if you have a larger food bar than other players. This appeals to the self-interest.

Another reason to use yum is to compensate for what your town is lacking. If your town is in early stages, then you may not have clothes, or you may have clothes but no backpack. If my yum chain is high enough, I can leave town to gather and not bring food. I effectively have an extra slot to carry. It doesn't fully compensate for a lack of milkweed or sheep thread to make carry slot items, but it makes a difference. Early game towns are more likely to have wild foods accessible nearby. The smith or baker do not need to eat the yum foods, but the explorer or gatherers can choose to eat yum foods to extend their ranging ability.

I observe a lot of towns do not have sauerkraut capability. It can be a smith friendly side project because of the blade and basic wood resource requirements. But, nothing will make me switch from crafting adze and and froes to just blades than some asshole taking the smithing hammer while the furnace is running. I know the town needs those tools, but I very quickly stop bothering to think anymore about what has or has not been smithed after I have been unhelpfully fucked at the forge. I try to make three blades for a sauerkraut board, but usually can only manage a couple at a time. Then somebody makes a bow saw out of a blade. Now I run out of resources cause I only planned on three blades at once. And so I wander off to find a resource. I get back and there could be no blades. So, I go back to making more blades as fast as possible, to hopefully have three at once. I do this to the detriment of everything smithing related. As long as I can make another blade I will light the kiln and prepare unforged bowls after I have smacked my blades out.

So this one time, there were a lot of murders by knife. I was just trying to make a sauerkraut board, I was not encouraging a murderous rampage. I am not saying I was disappointed though. The gameplay value was created by my motivation to create a specific food for yum.

So, without yum, this beautiful aspect of gameplay would not have existed. I was at about 15x yum, and with plenty of plus pips, I was working hard at smithing. Well, somebody created a huge hickup and I became salted. At some point I was needing to finish the kraut to maintain my yum chain. Even with me wasting resources and skipping needed tools to make the kraut, I failed to maintain my chain. I was so furious. I may have stabbed somebody, I can't remember. Smithicus interruptus.

And don't take the baker's sharp stone, or always return it.

And, an observation since the temperature update. When I have more clothes on, my yum chain number is usually lower when I reach fertility. This factor of baby birth probability causes lower birthrates in towns with clothed women. A town with well clothed women is probably more established and able to support a population growth. So, to add an interesting aspect of game theory: you can try to commence a yum chain as early as possible in your life while wearing the least clothing. You will spend a lot more focus on gathering yum foods early game. Your yum number will be higher through the fertility years than somebody who wore clothing through their life. Once you reach birthing age, throw on all your clothes to grab a good temperature and increase birth probability. There is a risk and reward. Your likelihood of death while young is much greater when chasing yum naked, but you are rewarded for a higher chain later in life.

Another fun thing, is to plan a massive plus pip for a useful task.

I think yum is either a distraction or nuanced mechanic. If I need to travel a long way for a specific reason, the only way could be a massive yum chain, who knows.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-13 03:21:09

DestinyCall wrote:

Your responses confuse me.
Are you purposefully misunderstanding what I am saying? Because I have a hard time believing that you still don't understand what I mean when I say "Every kind of food can get used in a yum chain."

For purposes of simplification, let's say you're an Eve where the apocalypse just happened. You first eat a wild berry off of a bush. Then you eat a banana. Your yum chain is the banana. That's it. If you eat a wild carrot next, your yum chain is the banana and the wild carrot. Before you ate the banana, the *only* foods that could get used in your yum chain were a banana, a wild carrot, a wild onion, and a burdock (catcus fruits take time to spawn, so we can ignore them). If you go back to before you ate the berry, four of the possible five foods can be part of your yum chain: berry in your hand, wild carrot, wild onion, burdock, and banana. The one which cannot be part of your yum chain comes as the first food you eat, which could be any of them.

No, I'm not misunderstanding you. I'm explaining how game mechanics work, because you keep on making a false statement. Not every food can be part of your yum chain. The only foods that can be part of your yum chain once you have eaten something comes as the foods that you have not eaten without any yum, or any foods with yum. Don't believe me? Alright. Here's what you can do to test things: go on a low pop server, or alternatively go into a tutorial area. Eat something. It might say 'yum', but pay attention to the bar more closely. It will NOT say "+1" nor will say "1x" anywhere. That won't happen until you've eaten one food different than the last and you did not break a yum chain by eating. So, from that it follows that not every food can be part of a yum chain. Not every food results in a "+n yum" nor a "n x" yum.

DestinyCall wrote:

Or "Foods that are good without yum are even better with yum".

Compared to what? Itself or other foods? Also, what is the food getting used for?

DestinyCall wrote:

Or "Yumming for max fertility does not apply to the whole village."

You're wrong here, because for all we know the whole village could be a few fertile females or just one fertile female.

DestinyCall wrote:

I am talking about providing food for an entire village, so why are you still talking about speed-yumming for fertility? It is a completely different topic.

Nope. The topic here was yum. Remember the title was 'top cap for yum'. Talking about efficiency absent yum thus not only comes as off-topic in the first place, it comes as ignoring aspects of game mechanics.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-13 03:26:46

Interesting perspective mensrea. Thanks for sharing!

Spoonwood · 2019-03-13 03:31:23

pein wrote:

he has a fetish about something everyone else disregards, thought better to kill it before it lays eggs

Pretty sure that mensrea doesn't ignore yum and neither does Twisted. Twisted's popularity suggests that other people don't ignore it either, since no doubt there exist people who learn playing habits from him. Whether they try to pie farm or make potatoes for yum comes as another matter entirely, because there exist a lot of foods in the game. But, they still eat for yum and try to get their numbers up even if not trying to maximize the yum potential of their family. So you are wrong on the first point. I would guess that you will be wrong on the second point also, since Jason purposefully RE-designed yum so that it would affect fertility when it didn't affect fertility for a while even though it existed in the game.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-13 03:53:30

just do a pein vs spoon eve competition already

DestinyCall · 2019-03-13 05:07:05

Spoonwood wrote:

No, I'm not misunderstanding you.

Yes, you are misunderstanding me. I understand how yum works. The first food starts the chain and each unique food after that provides a bonus that gets progressively better.

My point is that any food in the game can be used to start the chain. After starting, any unique food can be used to continue the chain. So you can you can choose to build a chain with efficient foods or with inefficient foods or with a mix of both kinds of food. The cumulative yum bonus will be the same as long as the chain length is equal. This is why I talk about the base cost and value of different foods in a discussion about yum. And this is why I think it is more important to encourage people to produce a variety of efficient foods rather than trying to make a little bit of everything. Because the yum bonus will be the same if your next bite is a bowl of milk or a bean taco, assuming neither one has been used previously, but the costs are VERY different. Every food takes time and resources and labor to produce. Yet those costs are not equal - some foods take a lot more raw resources or a lot more time or a lot more space. They cost more or they are harder to make in large amounts. Costly foods are worse than cheap foods. Hard-to-make foods are worse than easy food. Time-consuming foods are worse than faster foods.

You keep insisting there are no bad foods, but that is not accurate. Some foods are substantially better than others. A high yum bonus might improve the food value of a bad food, but it doesn't make them any easier or cheaper to produce. The yum bonus is going to be the same either way, so you might as well start from a solid foundation and eat the best foods first. Save bad foods for later or skip them entirely. If you have easy access to better options, there's no point eating poorly. And if better options are limited in your village, it would be a great idea to work on making good foods, before you spend time on more costly options.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Or "Foods that are good without yum are even better with yum".
Compared to what? Itself or other foods? Also, what is the food getting used for?

Jesus. This is what I am talking about. Food is used for eating. The food's food value is increased by the yum bonus. So a bite of rabbit pie with a +5 yum bonus is better than a bite of rabbit pie without a +5 yum bonus. By "better" I mean that the food now provides more pips. It is now a better food. If it was a good food already, it is now even better at being food. Perhaps I should use simpler words?

Food good. No food bad. People starve. Village die. Death bad.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:

Or "Yumming for max fertility does not apply to the whole village."
You're wrong here, because for all we know the whole village could be a few fertile females or just one fertile female.

Don't be daft. One fertile woman is not a village.

As for all-female villages, I think it is safe to assume this situation only applies to a very small number of villages. In the majority of villages, most of the population will not be fertile adult females. That is not my personal opinion, that is a fact that can be confirmed by game statistics.

So if you want to figure out the best way to feed a whole village, you don't focus on eating strategies that apply to the fertile women exclusively. You should look at general food strategies that work well for ALL players, young and old, noob and veteran, male and female. Because those are the kind of people you will find in a normal multiplayer village.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
I am talking about providing food for an entire village, so why are you still talking about speed-yumming for fertility? It is a completely different topic.
Nope. The topic here was yum. Remember the title was 'top cap for yum'. Talking about efficiency absent yum thus not only comes as off-topic in the first place, it comes as ignoring aspects of game mechanics.

Yumming for personal gain is a very different thing from using yum to reduce village food consumption. If you want to get your personal yum chain as high as possible in a short amount of time you would utilize a completely different strategy compared with trying to raise the average yum value of a whole village. Although a single individual's improved fertility rate can benefit to the village if it successfully brings in children at a critical time, the kind of strategies that help to maximize yum bonus usually do so at the expense of food efficiency. Eating multiple small bite foods to boost yum quickly or eating as soon as you have a single empty pip to raise your yum bonus or exposing yourself to temperature extremes to increase your hunger rate or seeking out easy-to-make but costly foods like fresh corn, green beans, or berry pies. These are all ways to rapidly raise your yum bonus to potentially increase fertility, but these are also wasteful food habits. This is not the kind of behavior that you would want to encourage everyone to emulate, like men, children, older women, or non-yummers. In contrast, helping your village yum better requires looking at food quality WITHOUT yum bonus and prioritizing efficiency and bonus food from processing when selecting the best food staples for a well-fed village. The increased variety will make good foods even better without creating a huge drain on the village's limited time and resources as people divert labor toward maintaining a higher level of food diversity.

If you see these situations as being identical because they both include the word "yum" then that helps me to understand why we can't seem to agree on anything. We are talking about completely different things.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-13 08:42:03)

pein · 2019-03-13 10:18:25

yeah intentional like butter knife kills, melting snowballs, wild lassos, carrot bodybuilders and gingerpocalypse

as mesnrea said, it's a selfish act, and only does it because he is kinda forced too. people die to a berry famine and leave a lot of food untouched, you don't need yum to survive that

you can increase your yum when you low on kids, now like 33% of females are fertile from the whole population
if everyone dies, you can just do a mediocre yum and it works

its not about the purpose, no one doing variety for the logical reasons

everyone starts as a farmer, some people evolve

Spoonwood · 2019-03-13 17:35:42

DestinyCall wrote:

Jesus. This is what I am talking about. Food is used for eating. The food's food value is increased by the yum bonus. So a bite of rabbit pie with a +5 yum bonus is better than a bite of rabbit pie without a +5 yum bonus. By "better" I mean that the food now provides more pips. It is now a better food. If it was a good food already, it is now even better at being food.

I don't accept that "better" means that the food now provides more pips. In terms of gameplay, as to which works out better for a lineage to continue, I do not agree that your last sentence follows, because it follows from a division into good and bad foods, which you regard as constant so far as I can tell. The yum bonus is not sufficient to make a food better. Sure, it may provide more time via the yum bars, but that doesn't make it's yum value better. For example, your partition puts rabbit pie into the good foods category and green beans into the bad foods category. Let's say you have 2x yum and you're a 17 year old woman who has noticed a fertility crisis. You have not eaten any food which gives you less than 15 pips. You have 13 white bars, or in other words you're down 13 pips. You're already wearing good clothes, and you want to eat for yum, and that's also the best bet for your family to survive. Is rabbit pie even better now? No, it's not, because your whole classification of rabbit pie rested on a comparison between many foods. Yes, it would give you three yum, but so what? If you eat the rabbit pie, then you have 3x yum and have to wait for the yum meter to go down and lose one black bar before you can eat again. Rabbit pie gets outclassed by over a dozen foods, including berry pie, assuming all other foods around, namely every food which gives you less than 13 pips. If you eat one of those foods and then eat another food, you have 4x yum. Thus, the smaller pip foods have more yum value than rabbit pie, because your fertility chances increase being at 4x yum (or greater) than being at 3x yum. The yum value of the smaller pip foods comes as higher than the yum value of the rabbit pie in any such scenario. Inefficiency or efficiency of food with respect to total pips after all ends up meaningless if the lineage dies out.

DestinyCall wrote:

Don't be daft. One fertile woman is not a village.

I don't agree. There is no definition of village.

DestinyCall wrote:

So if you want to figure out the best way to feed a whole village, you don't focus on eating strategies that apply to the fertile women exclusively.

No, that doesn't follow, because in order for the village to survive it needs fertile females having children. The focus thus should lie on fertile women, though it's fair to say that they should not be the only consideration.

DestinyCall wrote:

Although a single individual's improved fertility rate can benefit to the village if it successfully brings in children at a critical time, the kind of strategies that help to maximize yum bonus usually do so at the expense of food efficiency.

Food efficiency with respect to what? Food efficiency for a village of only men is rather meaningless.

DestinyCall wrote:

Eating multiple small bite foods to boost yum quickly or eating as soon as you have a single empty pip to raise your yum bonus or exposing yourself to temperature extremes to increase your hunger rate or seeking out easy-to-make but costly foods like fresh corn, green beans, or berry pies.

Exposing yourself to temperature extremes during one's fertility period is not advisable for any purpose. Maybe for a girl before her fertility period, but that's it.

DestinyCall wrote:

These are all ways to rapidly raise your yum bonus to potentially increase fertility, but these are also wasteful food habits. This is not the kind of behavior that you would want to encourage everyone to emulate, like men, children, older women, or non-yummers.

The temperature trick to increase yum for fertility/getting bite by mosquitoes I believe counter-productive or extreme unlikely to work. It could get used to increase yum, but since temperature also affects fertility, it also results in lowered fertility potential in that respect. It might have benefit for a girl during it before her fertility period, but that's about it. Thinking about it more, maybe a mom on womb cooldown could increase her fertility that way, but that also seems counterproductive, if she's tending to her children.

DestinyCall wrote:

In contrast, helping your village yum better requires looking at food quality WITHOUT yum bonus and prioritizing efficiency and bonus food from processing when selecting the best food staples for a well-fed village.

No, it does not require any of your efficient foods. Every food except those already eaten for 0 yum or those in your yum chain will work.

DestinyCall wrote:

The increased variety will make good foods even better without creating a huge drain on the village's limited time and resources as people divert labor toward maintaining a higher level of food diversity.

And again, no, it isn't that simple. Mutton pie and rabbit pies are not good foods during a fertility crisis which become very good foods during that fertility crisis. They end up as poorer foods during a fertility crisis than more than a dozen foods.

Léonard · 2019-03-14 05:43:47

futurebird wrote:

I don't understand why: [..] should be so much better than [..] just because the chain was broken. I think a more realistic "yum factor" would give a bonus to average diversity over say the last 40 pips eaten, not force you to try to remember the last 8 things you ate so you end up picking up food and putting it down again looking for yum.

I also agree that this is an excellent point.

In general, I think yum should be rethought a bit.
The purpose of a yum mechanic is obviously to incentivize the production and use of varied foods.
Nothing wrong with that.

The main problem with it is exactly what you point out: the chain makes it so that you either have people not yum ever, people who break their chain often (and have its rewards dramatically reduced) or marathon yummers.

One could argue that having yum working this way gives rare foods a much higher value.
But this is in truth a terrible thing. Rare foods are rare for a reason. They can often be inefficient and a net loss of pips.
Encouraging people to make such foods is never a good idea because it is selfish by definition.
The only other possibility for a rare food is that it actually is rare or hard to make rather than flat out never made because of its inefficiency.
The line between a food not made (and as such being rare) because of it being hard/complex and it being absolutely inefficient can be blurry.
Off the top of my head, sauerkraut and milk are the only food I would consider somewhat rare but at the same time efficient. So those are pretty much the only food that are favored by yum in this way positively as far as I can tell.

I think the fact that the current yum mechanic results in this "marathon yummers" trend kind of undermines its original goal which was to encourage varied diets.
It seems to me a lot of people would rather selfishly make and eat inefficient foods rather than spend more time producing an abundance of complex but good foods like milk/sauerkraut so that their whole village can benefit from it instead of just them.

So yes, rethinking the yum mechanic so that it is more sensible to variation would definitely help.
Some sort of general pip multiplier would be ideal.
Because then, you don't just get rewarded for eating ONCE a food, you get rewarded for simply varying your diet, even if that means eating a lot of the same food like pies for example.
People could have a diet with pie as their principal meal (like many people do) but simply varying a bit here and there with some milk or stew would keep their multiplier up.
If that is achieved, no more selfish people eating inefficient foods, all that would be encouraged by the mechanic is producing an abundance of varied foods for the entire village to benefit from.

You might still have a couple rare marathon yummers who only care about their fertility.
That's where pein's idea of a cap would work best.
Sure, eating a variety of food should be good for you, but at some point the multiplier should stop increasing.
Yumming would then be akin to temperature management.
Making sure it's good will increase your fertility, but you can only do so much.
This could also result in increased general productivity rather than individual productivity as now a mother could be fertile up to a certain amount.
After that nothing can be done, or can it? Competing for babies could still be possible after that, by simply having MORE fertile females in your village.
Making the fertility competition also a village problem rather than an individual problem fundamentally.

I also remember an interesting idea pein had a while ago: negative yum.
Having the multiplier go down a bit if you keep eating the same thing could maybe help.
The goal here would be to stop berry munching practices.
Although it can still be argued that berry munchers would still eat the berries even if their yum goes down.
It would simply make it less efficient and as such could actually be detrimental to a town in the end.
Perhaps to stop this, people could get "sick" of a particular food and refuse to eat "one more damn berry" if their yum multiplier got low enough by eating only berries.

I don't know what the general opinion is on this, but personally I am sick of the current berry meta.
Why berries? Berries everywhere. Berries after berries after berries after berries.
It also doesn't help that the temperature update incentivized berries once again by making naked children/elders even more dependent on them.
Why do berries need to be the central engine that runs a city systematically?
We're reaching a point in civilization where I can build a plane but I'm still forced to go back and forth to water the graying berries always.
It's getting kind of stale. Isn't the point of the game to "evolve or die"? When can we "evolve" our farms and automate them to some degree?

JonySky · 2019-03-14 17:59:16

the YUM system is very well to "force" to create a greater diversity of food in large and medium-sized cities, but I think it was a mistake to unite the YUM system with fertility ... I think it punishes women who travel a lot in search of iron or resources ... or new mothers ...

I do not see it equally with men ...

men do not have any penalty if they use the YUM system or not ... only the benefit of extra meal time is removed ...

Spoonwood · 2019-03-14 20:11:44

Leonard wrote:

Rare foods are rare for a reason. They can often be inefficient and a net loss of pips.
Encouraging people to make such foods is never a good idea because it is selfish by definition.

No, it's not, because such foods can get made and then eaten for yum for fertility reasons, and fertility is not selfish.

Leonard wrote:

It seems to me a lot of people would rather selfishly make and eat inefficient foods rather than spend more time producing an abundance of complex but good foods like milk/sauerkraut so that their whole village can benefit from it instead of just them.

Inefficiency is meaningless without fertility. A whole village that just drank milk will have lower fertility chances than if they have a more varied diet. The more varied diet comes as more likely to ensure their survival.

Additionally, if the person can get useful work done in their late 50s because of yum, I'm not so sure they were being all that selfish.

Leonard wrote:

Making the fertility competition also a village problem rather than an individual problem fundamentally.

That can already happen with enough people cooking for yum and organizing the village for purposes of yum.

Leonard wrote:

It also doesn't help that the temperature update incentivized berries once again by making naked children/elders even more dependent on them.

No, it doesn't make elders dependent on them. The elders aren't yumming enough if they are dependent on berries.

I think only booklat has proposed ideas here that I see as improving the current system. Yum should affect fertility and there should not exist a cap to it. Players do NOT need less motivation to vary their diets. If anything, players need more motivation to vary their diets and more motivation to try to vary the diet of others. Scores of posts droning on about 'efficiency' and scores of posts trying to compute values of food for it's input *ignoring* yum and the deep seated and ill-founded bias against potatoes all speak to this.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-14 21:34:31

Spoonwood wrote:

I think only booklat has proposed ideas here that I see as improving the current system. Yum should affect fertility and there should not exist a cap to it. Players do NOT need less motivation to vary their diets. If anything, players need more motivation to vary their diets and more motivation to try to vary the diet of others. Scores of posts droning on about 'efficiency' and scores of posts trying to compute values of food for it's input *ignoring* yum and the deep seated and ill-founded bias against potatoes all speak to this.

its not ignoring yum and its not bias, resource-wise potatoes suck even with yum as I'ce shown here https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 723#p48723

Fertility-wise its better to grow corn for both milks, butter, popcorn and one extra for raw/stew. That's more people yumming higher, for cheaper, making more base food. Better than potatoes in any possible metric.

Also, again, you have no evidence fertility matters more than food availability. If anything the sheer number of infertile girls dead before maturity is a sign starvation truly prevents fertility in most cases. Yum may play a role in late game but early on its heat and cheap foods that keep girls alive to eventually have kids.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-03-14 21:38:00)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-15 02:40:49

Booklat1 wrote:

its not ignoring yum and its not bias, resource-wise potatoes suck even with yum as I'ce shown here

No, you did not show such, as those are not actual yum numbers for the foods.

Booklat1 wrote:

Also, again, you have no evidence fertility matters more than food availability.

Food exists in wild form and often comes as out there.

Yum does play a role in the early game, as enough people eat more than one food type.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-15 02:50:07

Spoonwood wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
its not ignoring yum and its not bias, resource-wise potatoes suck even with yum as I'ce shown here
No, you did not show such, as those are not actual yum numbers for the foods.
Booklat1 wrote:
Also, again, you have no evidence fertility matters more than food availability.
Food exists in wild form and often comes as out there.
Yum does play a role in the early game, as enough people eat more than one food type.

They are precisely the right numbers And a best case scenario. Bonus on food eaten prior to potatoes say nothing about the food itself.
And that still doesnt explain it being impossible to match milk, crop per crop, with or without prior yum

Every math you've ever presented here was wrong, but im willing to take the bait, which was the right way to calculate yum for potatoes?

Booklat1 · 2019-03-15 03:12:14

Spoonwood wrote:

Food exists in wild form and often comes as out there.
Yum does play a role in the early game, as enough people eat more than one food type.

you completely dodged the point, again.

Dead girls have no babies, yum only factors fertility-wise once a girl has grown. Scavenging miscelaneous food in the cold wont help much, a slow fire and some crops will. Fires more easily allow for the 0.5 factor to fertility, yum competes with other towns' females's yums. Fires also greatly decrease food consumption.

If you or your girl kids are still in the cold depending on wild food to survive after first few gens it means you all fucked up in building a camp.

without wild foods there's a lot less to yum and wild means running in the cold.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-15 14:48:22

Booklat1 wrote:

They are precisely the right numbers And a best case scenario. Bonus on food eaten prior to potatoes say nothing about the food itself.
And that still doesnt explain it being impossible to match milk, crop per crop, with or without prior yum
Every math you've ever presented here was wrong, but im willing to take the bait, which was the right way to calculate yum for potatoes?

For the yum numbers you have to take into account the fertility numbers also via the yum. Given one player with the same yum as you, two bites of a potato is better than milk for fertility purposes.

Booklat1 wrote:

Fires more easily allow for the 0.5 factor to fertility, yum competes with other towns' females's yums.

Since it's so easy other females in other towns will do it. It's where the women of your family sit in the fertility line that matters.

Booklat1 wrote:

without wild foods there's a lot less to yum and wild means running in the cold.

If the settlement depends on wild foods for yum. It doesn't have to though. There exist more than 20 non-wild foods in the game.

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