Tacos and Burritos

DestinyCall · 2019-03-14 20:26:22

CrazyEddie wrote:

taco town's gonna have to send out a lotta expeditions to haul back soil

Pity the poor fool who uses two bowls of dirt in Taco Town. That is a stabbing offense.

Almost as bad as planting anything other than corn and more corn.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-14 20:31:52)

futurebird · 2019-03-14 22:22:34

DestinyCall wrote:

I look forward to getting born into an Eve camp positioned at the meeting point between a massive swamp and equally enormous badlands for i will know that I have found the promised land. Hopefully, the camp's small green space will be surrounded by an ample supply of wild pigs. We will call them "walking tacos" for they are Nasoj's gift to our people. Food that moves. Food that fights back. Food that kills those too weak to understand the joys of taco-making.
There are no gooseberry bushes in Taco Town because there are no sheep. Never sheep - they are the anti-pig - Unclean and rejected by our wise traditions. Our children eat only popcorn, for corn is the one true food, mother of tacos, creator of pigs and geese and cow. From corn comes life and milk and masa. Dirt must not be wasted on any inferior crops. Our fields are rich with corn and the fields of dry corn keep our children safe from the wolves and bears that visit us regularly.
The weak perish in Taco Town. The strong wear wolf hats and eat a lot of tacos.

Looking forward to seeing you in the promised land.

futurebird · 2019-03-14 22:25:16

How hard would it be to make a server where you can't make a gooseberry in to a seed? Take that away and things get interesting. Wild berries only. Better learn to make burritos.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-14 22:55:21

futurebird wrote:

How hard would it be to make a server where you can't make a gooseberry in to a seed? Take that away and things get interesting. Wild berries only. Better learn to make burritos.

In a world without gooseberries, popcorn is king.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-14 23:07:35

If I was better at modding and capable of hosting a server, I would totally figure out a way to make a Taco Town custom server, just for the LOLs.

The only farmable crops would be corn, beans, and cabbage. Pie recipes would be disabled. Wild boar and wolf populations would be doubled. Wild milkweed would give thread. And bowl of carnitas would be edible.

It would be glorious and terrible.

Ferna · 2019-03-14 23:16:16

futurebird wrote:

I think most of the reason making burritos and tacos make clutter is not enough people know what you are doing and there aren't really established patters for how such stations should be laid out...
Perhaps the move is to find a town with a long road to nowhere (but a nowhere with a pond for water) and make a taco outpost town at the end of the road.

A main feature of Fire Pit cooking is that the workspaces can be packed up and moved easily, so I don't think it's especially helpful to think about it as a fixed structure like the Bakery. Rather than trying to find a "perfect" site for it, you can produce these kinds of foods the fastest by splitting them up into stages:

Gather Limestone and stack it near the Smithy
Construct a simple Limestone Station when you're ready to process it:

(Often the Smith or Builder will even start processing it for you, no questions asked!)

Bring your Slaked Lime somewhere near the Bakery
Set up an ideal Fire Pit layout for the task (less movement is better):
Finally, hop into the Bakery to prepare your Carnitas and/or Beans then combine to finish

Pork Tacos and Bean Tacos are still very step-intensive crafts, though, so it's difficult to get food production rates that are competitive with other Fire Pit recipes unless you have a lot of support from other professions. That's another reason why Tacos and Burritos are pretty underpowered right now.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-14 23:19:18

ryanb wrote:

What if:
1. More food options added for pork and carnitas (pies, baked ham, etc.)
2. Sheep no longer poop
3. Pigs poop
This would give a purpose to owning both pigs and sheep. Right now sheep are OP.

I think any form of pies that can be made as a byproduct of the best(or only) composting process will be too good unless their food values are bad. I'd rather like to see pork stews or something salted/smoked in this scenario you proposed. I think both animals could poop, but pigs would do it for cheaper, this plus a soft nerf should encourage using pigs for better composting.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-03-14 23:20:56)

pein · 2019-03-15 01:20:54

mutton pies are king and i rush them all the time

food statistics and experience showed the more mutton pies got eaten, the higher average skill it was

also compost, hats and sheep skins are increasing people survival, and bread is the only thing that can clear up cities from excess grain on lower plate usage

i get cows sometimes, but generally the issue is that boards are wasted on buildings, and ropes are not being made, without multiple buckets, cows arent that good, especially how people did nowadays, that they milked one cow and made few others in process, but only for one bucket of milk

burrito is good when the town has too much beans. when stew is not an option, and you need to clear it up, you can always cook some beans
a good bean burrito setup is:
7 flat rocks, dump only one of each dough from the bowls, roll it, 6 at a time, 6 bowls, 6x4 is 24 dough to 4x6 tortilla plates
the 7th stone goes to fire, you can roll a few more in meantime and cook them up
now pies work cause you got the setup, i tried this setup and i made it quite late, so i could only make like 3-4 plates of tortillas, it clears up grain 50% faster than bread, or lower plat usage, and if you got a lot of beans but no crocks left, then is a good option. generally if they see flat rocks they make a dumb road or bury people with it

Ferna · 2019-03-15 01:29:54

futurebird wrote:

But you can't have a stack of pies on one plate and have 6 different people each take one and put them in their pack for later.

Bread. You go from 8 slices (really 12) down to 6 when making dough into Burritos.

If there was an outstanding aspect to Burritos that balanced out their food loss, I'd definitely mention it. But I never found one across all the metrics I could think up for testing (net food per craft, food production speed, portability, Yum potential, storage density, ideal age ranges, soil efficiency, water efficiency, and iron efficiency).

Now, going into some heavier math for people who like that stuff:

Spoonwood wrote:

You need interval numbers or fuzzy numbers to have accuracy here (and for anyone who doesn't know fuzzy numbers are a thing... see here for example: http://www.cb.uu.se/~joakim/course/fuzz … /L9_4.pdf).

This isn't an appropriate application for fuzzy numbers. Yum Chains are not a property of food items (they're a function of player proximity and history), so you can't produce a stationary probability curve (which we need) under general conditions if you approach it that way.

Luckily, there's a different way to approach Yum Values that's pretty darn easy: it's just another factor that discounts from the Total Food Per Life requirement for each player, similar to how we handle temperature and clothing. A player who pulls off a perfect Yum Chain can reach up to ~60% total discount, while perfect temperature and clothing can be as high as ~75% total discount. Other factors, like overeating, can also be handled as negative discounts.

When comparing food production, there's no particular reason to worry about discounts. Why? Well, for any menu that supports a given Yum Chain (say, 20 different foods), the relative performance of food sources within the menu will always be the same with changes only occurring on what foods are included / excluded based on varying player conditions. Conveniently, if you also rank the performance of food sources without Yum, it will give you a nearly identical "Yum totem pole" as every Yum Chain menu for the same conditions. So you can just ignore it!

That's why I'd definitely recommend this as the best math approach for the topic.

Last edited by Ferna (2019-03-15 01:41:57)

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 01:37:55

Ferna wrote:

When comparing food production, there's no particular reason to worry about discounts. Why? Well, for any menu that supports a given Yum Chain (say, 20 different foods), the relative performance of food sources within the menu will always be the same with changes only occurring on what foods are included / excluded based on varying player conditions. Conveniently, if you also rank the performance of food sources without Yum, it will give you a nearly identical "Yum totem pole" as every Yum Chain menu for the same conditions. So you can just ignore it!
That's why I'd definitely recommend this as the best math approach for the topic.

Yes, exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

Thaulos · 2019-03-15 02:33:06

I love making tacos and I find them good in order to diversify food source (corn + beans/porn) instead of pies (wheat + pork/rabbit). Unfortunately it is often the case I find something else needing urgent tending and end up not being able to cook them as you need to cook tacos in batches.

Last week I tried to split foods into different categories based on profession and food source to see what a good diversification would be.

I came up with this:

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-03-15 02:33:50)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-15 02:43:29

DestinyCall wrote:

Feel free to provide your own calculations that include yum and fuzzy numbers. I look forward to seeing what you are able to find out. Food math is quite interesting, isn't it?

No, I don't feel it all that interesting. Game context matters more, and that I find interesting.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 03:16:29

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Feel free to provide your own calculations that include yum and fuzzy numbers. I look forward to seeing what you are able to find out. Food math is quite interesting, isn't it?
No, I don't feel it all that interesting. Game context matters more, and that I find interesting.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-15 03:19:46

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Feel free to provide your own calculations that include yum and fuzzy numbers. I look forward to seeing what you are able to find out. Food math is quite interesting, isn't it?
No, I don't feel it all that interesting. Game context matters more, and that I find interesting.

"you're wrong but i dont have the skill to prove it"

Math can still be applied to a specific context, smart boy. That's isolating variables. You should try it instead of the usual " this is too complex therefore my uninformed opinion is right".

futurebird · 2019-03-15 03:33:09

Please don't abuse "math" like this. Just because you put math on something doesn't automatically make it more valid. And I say this as a mathematician.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-15 04:16:29

futurebird wrote:

Please don't abuse "math" like this. Just because you put math on something doesn't automatically make it more valid. And I say this as a mathematician.

Then plz step up and refute or confirm our entire statements, math included. Please, help us get better understanding here. We been at it with spoon for long.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 723#p48723
Even when presented with the comparison of 5 players at 50 yum eating potatoes (which is impossible) spoon insists its not the right way to calculate yum (even though it was clear it was comparing each crop + bonus despite previous yum )

I did this cause I was factoring the absurd case of ultra coordinated 5 people at extreme yums, we dont know how they yummed in the first place. But I bet YOU see that when spoon doesnt. Crop per crop these foods need absurd yums AND many people to be worth it resource-wise (potatoes still arent)

If you factor previous bonuses and a single person eating a carrot at 21 accumulates 210 food, close to milk + skim, which is insane. But then you have 4 carrots worth consderably less left and ate a lot of inferior foods. 5 people get total bonus of 1050 + base food values. 2 corns plants worth of milk are 1120. In which universe does growing carrots or potatoes, to feed a village post cows pays off? If you and some buds have to grow berries, carrots, beans, squash, corn, wheat, eat wild foods, cook everthing and chain to get less bonus than two crops worth of milk you're doing it for the fun, not efficiency.

I'm not some rando playing with numbers, I use math for a reason, testing hypothesis. Full bonus or crop per crop, yumming bad foods demands many people AND high values to be worth it cost-efficiency wise.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-03-15 04:37:10)

futurebird · 2019-03-15 04:55:16

Booklat1 wrote:

I did this cause I was factoring the absurd case of ultra coordinated 5 people at extreme yums, we dont know how they yummed in the first place. But I bet YOU see that when spoon doesnt. Crop per crop these foods need absurd yums AND many people to be worth it resource-wise (potatoes still arent)

I mean, yeah, but those aren't the only factors. You have to get your kids and family motivated to make food and keep the village organized. If one of them is super productive but wants to make potatoes you can't MAKE that person not plant them. Food isn't all that dire in the game if most players simply produce more food than they eat. That makes room for a few to do things like make paper and cars if you are lucky. It's easy to make enough food to feed a dozen people and if that's your jam, (its mine, I like to feed the masses) then go for it.

It's obvious that berries, mutton pies and later milk are the best mass foods. End of story. But, if someone is bored with those it's better if they make SOMETHING.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 05:12:25

futurebird wrote:

It's obvious that berries, mutton pies and later milk are the best mass foods. End of story.

I'm pretty sure that Spoonwood would argue with that statement actually. You didn't consider yum at all.

/sarcasm

Spoonwood · 2019-03-15 15:19:51

Ferna wrote:

This isn't an appropriate application for fuzzy numbers. Yum Chains are not a property of food items (they're a function of player proximity and history), so you can't produce a stationary probability curve (which we need) under general conditions if you approach it that way.

Maybe this comes as beside the point, but fuzzy numbers are not probability distributions, nor probabilistic. A probability distribution sums or integrates to 1. A fuzzy number has a maximum of 1.

Ignoring yum ignores fertility.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-15 15:32:05

DestinyCall wrote:

futurebird wrote:
It's obvious that berries, mutton pies and later milk are the best mass foods. End of story.

I'm pretty sure that Spoonwood would argue with that statement actually. You didn't consider yum at all.

/sarcasm

Most of what futurebird said I would agree with. Especially this:

futurebird wrote:

Food isn't all that dire in the game if most players simply produce more food than they eat. That makes room for a few to do things like make paper and cars if you are lucky. It's easy to make enough food to feed a dozen people and if that's your jam, (its mine, I like to feed the masses) then go for it.

I wouldn't agree with the above, but the biggest problem comes as that berries are not one of the best foods *for the masses* assuming a settlement has more men than women.

That said DestinyCall if the masses consist of just a few fertile women, no milk and mutton pies are not among the best mass foods. Lower pip foods outclass those foods in such a scenario.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-15 15:47:16

futurebird wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
I did this cause I was factoring the absurd case of ultra coordinated 5 people at extreme yums, we dont know how they yummed in the first place. But I bet YOU see that when spoon doesnt. Crop per crop these foods need absurd yums AND many people to be worth it resource-wise (potatoes still arent)
If one of them is super productive but wants to make potatoes you can't MAKE that person not plant them. .

I can and I will stop them if we are low on shovels/iron, specially pre-mine. Base 30 food for these costs is horrendous.

Also, spoon insists potatoes are better for fertile females. Again, growing corn for both milks, butter, popcorn and one extra is much better in increasing yum too, even disconsidering whole milk and focusing on the other 4 sources of yum produced.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 17:55:56

Spoonwood wrote:

Ferna wrote:
This isn't an appropriate application for fuzzy numbers. Yum Chains are not a property of food items (they're a function of player proximity and history), so you can't produce a stationary probability curve (which we need) under general conditions if you approach it that way.
Maybe this comes as beside the point, but fuzzy numbers are not probability distributions, nor probabilistic. A probability distribution sums or integrates to 1. A fuzzy number has a maximum of 1.
Ignoring yum ignores fertility.

If you can come up with an understandable way to calculate the fertility value/yum rating of an individual food, I'm sure people would be interested. But so far, all you have done is complain about uncounted factors without offering a reasonable alternative. Focusing on edge cases does not invalidate the general conclusions people have reached regarding food efficiency.

In my opinion, fertility is highly situational and unrelated to the main question of which foods are best for the village as a whole. Whether an individual wants a high fertility rate or a low fertility rate depends on a number of variables. And many players have a fixed zero fertility rate for part or all of their lifetime. It would be interesting to consider what foods are "best" for yumming from a fertility perspective. But I don't see how that has any meaningful impact on general village food production.

Food efficiency looks at food from a different direction. The goal is feeding the most people with the least work. Death by starvation is the TOP cause of death in this game by a wide margin, so it has a huge impact on village survival and it also takes up a pretty big chunk of the village's time and labor. More efficient food production means fewer people starve to death in the middle of the village and more people can focus on important, non-food related tasks. The challenge is defining what is important when trying to feed many people and what adds to the "work" when gathering, producing, or processing different types of food. Some foods have hidden costs or become harder to produce over time. Other foods have tech tree requirements or more valuable alternatives that can be made from the same or similar ingredients. Accounting for all the variables can be tricky, but the end result is a better idea of what foods should be mass-produced to provide many bites to a lot of players and which foods should be skipped over or reserved for later production. Some foods are too costly to produce as food staples, but they would make sense in more stable villages where general food-stores are good. At that point, the focus can shift away from preventing widespread starvation toward enhancing quality of life, village-wide fertility rate and active work-time through a higher average yum bonus from greater food diversity.

Yum bonus has a role in efficient food consumption. It adds a helpful bonus that can make certain foods better for certain people under certain circumstances and it also makes efficient foods even better value. In fact, with a high enough yum bonus, you can eventually reach a point where all foods are high value foods, irrespective of cost. But it is rarely a strong enough determining factor to change the overall food value between competing foods. It is still better to focus on producing efficient foods if your goal is to provide food for an entire village.

OR ... you could just forget about yum and food efficiency. Grow corn and make tacos. That's all you really need. All any village really needs. Popcorn, tacos, milk. They form the perfect food triangle. Anything else is folly.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-15 18:00:48)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-15 19:38:08

DestinyCall wrote:

The goal is feeding the most people with the least work.

You have to have the people first.

DestinyCall wrote:

Death by starvation is the TOP cause of death in this game by a wide margin, so it has a huge impact on village survival and it also takes up a pretty big chunk of the village's time and labor.

Alright. So, before "shift+delete" got removed, all "shift + delete" deaths would register as starvation. There exist people who decide to quit playing at some point, and those get registered as death by starvation often also. People also starve with food right around them. And I think there exist more than half a dozen people who say "they won't eat stew!" (or something like that) in game or on the forums. Like I remember one person's final words being "why won't you eat stew?" So, any inference to there not existing enough food around comes as conjectural at best.

DestinyCall wrote:

More efficient food production means fewer people starve to death in the middle of the village and more people can focus on important, non-food related tasks.

That assumes that people know how to eat those foods. Also, no, more efficiency does not mean more focus on important non-food related tasks. Yum gives you more time, especially past 50, for doing tasks in the village.

Look, fragility, who has a rather impressive rate of grandchildren, not children, has recently provided some notes and discussions of yum appear.

Your last sentence about tacos made me laugh. So, thanks for the merriment DestinyCall.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-15 19:45:29

so its hard for people to eat few good foods but easy to eat dozens of bad ones?

any food except berries (which exist in tutorial) need players to learn they exist beforehand, if anything this is an argument against yum.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 23:14:59

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
The goal is feeding the most people with the least work.
You have to have the people first.

If you are feeding a village, you already have the people. That's what you are trying to feed.

This is a circular arguement. You need food to feed the babies. You need babies to eat the food. Both are important. Both are necessary. Yum is a bonus that might help with babies or food, but isn't required for either.

Spoonwood wrote:

That assumes that people know how to eat those foods. Also, no, more efficiency does not mean more focus on important non-food related tasks. Yum gives you more time, especially past 50, for doing tasks in the village.

Yum giveth time and yum taketh it away. Meat pies are forever.

Spoonwood wrote:

Look, fragility, who has a rather impressive rate of grandchildren, not children, has recently provided some notes and discussions of yum appear.
Your last sentence about tacos made me laugh. So, thanks for the merriment DestinyCall.

I'm glad. Spreading the joy of tacos is one of life's special treasures.

I'll be sure to check out fragility's post. His kid/female life ratio is quite impressive, although it looks like I'm doing a little better when it comes to the grandkids. Must be all those pies. The user stat data is quite fascinating. I want to see if I can get my ratio of grandkids to kids greater than 1. That would be pretty cool.

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