I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

futurebird · 2019-03-17 18:16:24

Not everyone followed "the rules" and my daughter thought I was nuts.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-17 18:20:36

i mean, i suppose one could get the amount needed to maintain a necessary amount of compost from wild berries with some discipline

Anandamide · 2019-03-17 18:51:57

We died off, not a good idea. Needed food for kids in-between stews. We had to make stew so quickly.

futurebird · 2019-03-17 19:05:02

Ah well thank you for trying the nutty idea.

Ferna · 2019-03-17 19:39:14

Anandamide wrote:

We died off, not a good idea. Needed food for kids in-between stews. We had to make stew so quickly.

For children, there's actually several early-tech foods that beat out Gooseberries by a significant margin:

Cooked Carrot Pie (7 pips x 4 meals)
No waste if Age 4+
80% more food per Soil/Water
6 min. to start production

Popcorn (3 pips x 4 meals)
Never wastes pips
20% more food per Soil/Water
8 min. to start production

Raw Carrots (7 pips x 1 meal)
No waste if Age 4+
Equal food per Soil/Water
4 min. to start production

So from a food supply perspective, there's definitely no reason you must fail without Gooseberries. In fact, you'd probably be better off getting food up and running 4 - 6 minutes earlier!

However, Gooseberries are quite helpful if you want to task your newbies with Farming upkeep (since there's no tilling, seeding, etc.) while the experienced players focus on advancing tech eras. You should also plan to make several Hoes early on if going for other crops, since tool usage is significantly heavier for anything except Cows.

w0wma · 2019-03-17 19:43:33

futurebird wrote:

Not everyone followed "the rules" and my daughter thought I was nuts.
https://i.imgur.com/SpileiV.jpg

i'd like to think that some of your children tried to forage, and didn't totally perish because they solely relied on berries.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-17 19:43:45

I have given this idea some thought. It's not really a good idea, for obvious reasons, but I am convinced that it is possible. Maybe best attempted on a low pop server with discord coordination so the majority of people understand what you are trying to achieve and you do not waste time explaining your ways and killing off the berry-planters.

The optimal food order would be something like wild foods until you get pottery, then carrots and omelettes, until you get popcorn and stew ready, then start growing wheat to make rabbit pies. Make a LOT of bowls and switch from carrot farming to corn. Make popcorn for the toddlers. Lots of stew and meat pies for adults. Also pork tacos, because why not?

If you want to be really hardcore, skip sheep and go straight to the cow. Make as many buckets as possible and switch to a popcorn and milk diet. Make horse carts and gather wild dirt for your corn farms. Look down scornfully on any village that relies on compost to survive.

antking:]# · 2019-03-17 19:48:22

DestinyCall wrote:

Look down scornfully on any village that relies on compost to survive.

and then plead for mercy as the noobs start rolling in and soil becomes rare and rare

pein · 2019-03-17 20:04:37

actually you can farm carrots, if they don't overeat it, is good enough
seeds are bit harder, but grows faster than berries, only the tilling might be a problem

but carrots keep up a small family until you got tools and then doesn't matter

we had like 12 bushes on other server and in a bit no one ate berries, we had cacti and pies

trust me when i say, it makes all the difference when you make the board overlay and the cistern before making a berry farm
i dugged up more berries than joriom in its days
fixing a berry farm is harder than planting new, like people sabotage you all the time
they see a berry bush languishing they dump soil on it
and its hell of annoying when you pick it off, prepare boards, prepare stakes, shovel, water and a 3 year old dumps soil on it and leaves it like that
cause noobs fix every bad bush anywhere, near doors, inside pen
i was even cursed for it for digging out bushes from a pen, they were remnants of previous pen corners

Last edited by pein (2019-03-17 20:31:06)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-17 20:48:10

DestinyCall wrote:

Also pork tacos, because why not?

Well that came out of nowhere. I think you're joking suggesting to make pork tacos before so many other foods... like say bean burritos, as just one example.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-17 21:15:09

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Also pork tacos, because why not?
Well that came out of nowhere. I think you're joking suggesting to make pork tacos before so many other foods... like say bean burritos, as just one example.

Nah, pork tacos are better if you aren't composting. Less dirt usage.

If you were trying to build a village completely without compost for some reason, you would want to minimize soild use quite strictly. Double-till single bowls of dirt and focus on corn-based foods like popcorn, milk, and tacos. I would also suggest geese too, but domestic geese require sheep dung.

No milkweed farming or tree farming. Minimize carrot and bean farming. No wheat farming - gather wild wheat when needed. Hunt turkey, rabbit, pig, and mouflon for meat. Make a lot of horse carts and use them to hunt and gather.

futurebird · 2019-03-17 21:28:43

FYI wild berries ARE allowed in the "no berry" town, just not planting of gooseberry patches. I'm sick of seeing vast fields of berry bushes LOL.

Ferna · 2019-03-17 21:57:37

DestinyCall wrote:

If you want to be really hardcore, skip sheep and go straight to the cow. Make as many buckets as possible and switch to a popcorn and milk diet. Make horse carts and gather wild dirt for your corn farms. Look down scornfully on any village that relies on compost to survive.

Cows and Sheep become available at the same time, but it's arguably easier to unlock Cows since they're on the same tech path as Deep Wells (unmissable) and only need 2 - 4 tiles of pen space for even the largest villages. With an experienced milker, farming 1 Corn plot can be enough to support ~10 - 20 villagers for their entire lives.

However, you're probably putting too much emphasis on Popcorn here. It's not that good by any measure except the low age threshold (which Mother's Milk already covers almost for free), so it's a bit misleading to pull it out as your sole example. For children Age 4 - 5, it's generally outperformed by Skim Milk, Bread, Carrot Pie, or Sauerkraut regardless of whether you have Gooseberries growing.

pein · 2019-03-17 22:19:07

whats wrong with planting berries 1 tile from 1 another?
or in a line? next to a road?
or 3x3 in a corner and 3x3 on other corner?

we used to plant them together
this mentality needs to change! told my daughter keep spacing, told my son cut boards
made 2x3x3 patches surrounded by boards as Eve
38 gen later they had 10x3x3 patches

you don't put cows in sheep pen
you make 1x1 pen for it

DestinyCall · 2019-03-17 23:20:45

Ferna wrote:

However, you're probably putting too much emphasis on Popcorn here. It's not that good by any measure except the low age threshold (which Mother's Milk already covers almost for free), so it's a bit misleading to pull it out as your sole example. For children Age 4 - 5, it's generally outperformed by Skim Milk, Bread, Carrot Pie, or Sauerkraut regardless of whether you have Gooseberries growing.

I'd push popcorn as a good starter food for a berry-free village. Carrots in short-term, then popcorn to reduce the cost. Longterm, it is out-performed by other options (especially milk), but I would continue to use it as "baby food" until other options were viable for mass-production. Mostly because corn is cheap and easy, so you should always have a decent amount available. Saurkraut has a high start-up cost, but a decent food value after you make the tools. Bread and carrot pies are not that great. Better to make meat pies from the wheat and compost the carrots. Even if babies eat a meat pie, you more than make back the wasted pips from the processing bonus. Same thing with skim milk. Might as well just feed everyone whole milk. No point intentionally producing skim milk for kids, since you lose half the food value up front by letting a bucket of whole milk separate. That is as much or more than what the kids might waste because of their short hunger bars.

It is fine to make some bread, skim milk, and buttered bread for the sake of food variety and yum bonus (if you are into that), but if I wouldn't worry too much if you see kids drinking whole milk or eating meat pies. It's not a big deal. And obviously, if you are trying to make whole milk, but forget to stop it from seperating, it is a great food for kids. And you will want to make sure the butter gets used too. This doesn't fully make back the lost food value of whole milk, but it does divide it up so more people can enjoy it in smaller portions.

futurebird · 2019-03-17 23:31:04

pein wrote:

whats wrong with planting berries 1 tile from 1 another?
or in a line? next to a road?
or 3x3 in a corner and 3x3 on other corner?
we used to plant them together
this mentality needs to change! told my daughter keep spacing, told my son cut boards
made 2x3x3 patches surrounded by boards as Eve
38 gen later they had 10x3x3 patches

you don't put cows in sheep pen
you make 1x1 pen for it

I admire you so much for this. Teach all children to space the bushes, that way if you must have them, you can at least pick the suckers. And how about the time wasted by walking to water and soil berries in the middle of a vast patch.

This experiment was a bit extreme, but seriously even large towns only need about 3 2x6 rows of berries tops with walkways in between. Small towns can make do with two.

I have tried to recruit people to help me remove berry bushes and I can get a few out and a few boards down in a life time, but it's really hard to get people's attention and once I starved standing with the shovel waiting for a girl to come back to water the bush so I could dig it up.

Berries are a god dam blight I tell you.

futurebird · 2019-03-17 23:34:04

DestinyCall wrote:

Bread and carrot pies are not that great.

Bread is good for putting near the berries if you must have them, since it's not too many pips per slice it isn't wasted by kids like pies and stew. And kids can put a single slice in an apron or pack if you have so many clothes that most of your kids are dressed.

Ferna · 2019-03-18 01:01:09

DestinyCall wrote:

I'd push popcorn as a good starter food for a berry-free village. Carrots in short-term, then popcorn to reduce the cost. Longterm, it is out-performed by other options (especially milk), but I would continue to use it as "baby food" until other options were viable for mass-production. Mostly because corn is cheap and easy, so you should always have a decent amount available.

I don't think you've given the food economy complete enough consideration here. Corn is a long replacement-time crop (over 8 minutes) that's providing the foundation for your entire Stew and Milk food supply. If well-meaning newbies poach all of your Shucked Corn while it's drying or your Dried Corn to make snacks, there's a nearly 8 minute delay before you can produce any further food -- so that almost immediately rules it out for this village.

Your initial suggestion of Carrots as a short-term food source was more on the mark, I think, and supports a better economic progression to Bread / Carrot Pie as the secondary food chain. Importantly, Rabbit Pie production can never match farming capacity long-term (due to 1 hour respawn times), so there's always going to be room to fit more Wheat-based cooking if you want to keep your Bakery busy. Both of these foods also beat Popcorn by +40% food per Soil/Water and +600 food per Iron, so there isn't an efficiency argument that favors Popcorn either.

Lastly, and the same as any production process, bottlenecks are what drive the overall performance of the system. While I get that Corn alone probably appeals to you as an 'elegantly simple' approach, it's nowhere near as trustworthy as a mixed food economy across Corn / Carrot / Wheat. Even in a case where we're relying on Gooseberry production as well, poaching of Corn supplies is a major nuisance for Stew and Milk producers because you lose nearly 1/6th of a working life if there's a shortage. We should be practical here and go by the numbers here, even if the result seems less than neat and tidy.

Lily · 2019-03-18 01:35:08

It is possible, though a bit rough since it makes composting more difficult. Food sources that last forever are wild berries and cactus fruit. If you have enough of those theoretically you don't have to farm at all. Also cheap foods include eggs and rabbits, which you need fire to cook. Fire does require string, so you may need to eventually farm milkweed, though if you are not farming anything else, then you can probably go a very long time before you run out of soil if all you grow is milkweed.

A city like this would actually be extremely efficient. The problem is that you have to find a location with all the resources you need, and that is up to random luck.

pein · 2019-03-18 01:43:47

you can dig a bush alone, needs a bit of dexterity
put down shovel next to bush, possibly not south side, or SE
put water, swap empty bowl to shovel and click it
if you pt down bowl normally it wont work, but with swapping you can even destroy adobe alone, which needs 2 water and a pick

futurebird · 2019-03-18 02:31:22

pein wrote:

you can dig a bush alone, needs a bit of dexterity
put down shovel next to bush,

The kind of bush I want to remove most is always in the center of a massive patch. I guess I could work down the row. Though, I'm not the most dexterous person so... this will be frustrating.

betame · 2019-03-18 10:11:05

Ferna wrote:

Both of these foods [bread and carrot pie???] also beat Popcorn by +40% food per Soil/Water and +600 food per Iron, so there isn't an efficiency argument that favors Popcorn either.

and from the Taco/Burrito thread:

Ferna wrote:

Among the other types, Carrot Pies can be a great food for kids since the lower pip count means they can start eating it as early as Age 4 without wasting any. It's also ~2x better on Soil/Water than having kids eat Gooseberries and much faster than waiting for Bushes to refresh.

I, like many, am a fan of Ferna's infographics, and how they reason about food in general.

I'm just wondering where the numbers are coming from, since they differ from what I'd reasoned. And the numbers NoTruePunk had added on the wiki don't agree with either of us! It's unnerving for me that we've all come up with different answers to the same numerical question.

betame wrote:

Berry: 1 bush of 7 berries of 5 food = 35 food
= 1 soil + 1 water
Bread: 8 slices of 8 food = 64 food + 1 straw
= 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till
Carrot: 30 carrots of 7 food = 210 food
= 8 soil + 7 water + 7 till
Carrot Pie: 4 pies of 4 bites of 7 food = 112 food + 1 straw
= 4/30 x (30 carrot = 8 soil + 7 water + 7 till)
+ 1 x (4 dough = 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till)
Popcorn: 4 bowls of 4 bites of 3 food = 48 food
= 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till
food.        per soil.     per water
Berry	        35.000	35.000
Bread or dough	32.000	32.000
Carrot	        26.250	30.000
carrot pie	36.522	38.182
Popcorn	        48.000	48.000

Last edited by betame (2019-03-18 10:18:00)

Ferna · 2019-03-24 02:29:59

betame wrote:

I, like many, am a fan of Ferna's infographics, and how they reason about food in general.
I'm just wondering where the numbers are coming from, since they differ from what I'd reasoned. And the numbers NoTruePunk had added on the wiki don't agree with either of us! It's unnerving for me that we've all come up with different answers to the same numerical question.

The Everything About Food thread is basically my answer to this question! When putting together the efficiency plotter spreadsheet for the second section, I found that essentially all of the differences come from which farming strategy we applied in each set of math. The goal with this was to put the math for every strategy in one place so we could compare the different assumptions.

Looking at the efficiency plots, I've started to have some doubts about the 2 Soil x 1 Tilling for Steel Hoes that became popular after Iron spawn rates were nerfed. That farming strategy actually seems like the worst of all worlds: soil efficiency plummets for most foods, your iron efficiency doesn't improve much, and you end up using more water and Shovels running Compost cycles to keep up with food demand. What are your thoughts on the appeal of sticking with that vs. optimizing around a different strategy?

betame · 2019-03-24 08:00:37

Ferna wrote:

The Everything About Food thread is basically my answer to this question! When putting together the efficiency plotter spreadsheet for the second section, I found that essentially all of the differences come from which farming strategy we applied in each set of math. The goal with this was to put the math for every strategy in one place so we could compare the different assumptions.
Looking at the efficiency plots, I've started to have some doubts about the 2 Soil x 1 Tilling for Steel Hoes that became popular after Iron spawn rates were nerfed. That farming strategy actually seems like the worst of all worlds: soil efficiency plummets for most foods, your iron efficiency doesn't improve much, and you end up using more water and Shovels running Compost cycles to keep up with food demand. What are your thoughts on the appeal of sticking with that vs. optimizing around a different strategy?

Wow! what a tremendous work!

I was wrong to assume 2Soil1Till when looking at food efficiency, carried over from the thread on stretching iron for food.

Optimizing for iron depends on meta. And I think soil is usually more important than iron for saving labor rn.

Psykout · 2019-03-24 10:41:19

Really love how we are getting into how the metric of iron vs food and soil vs food is important. We have gauged food only versus iron for awhile, but its becoming obvious that there are other ways to look at it. By examining these numbers and thinking about player traits, things like the subject idea could be possible, and not only with meta communication such as discord.

You can't have a no gooseberry town really. You need them for compost and sheep, although you could get lucky and get really good natural clusters of wild ones. It will eventually become a hassle and a planning annoyance as you can't remove them. Newer players that don't recognize pails of milk or crocks of stew, or even bowls of popcorn will die. Sure big deal, but they might have lived long enough to birth einstein that would do enough work to push the lineage 20+ generations, you never know. Always best to have as many as possible make it. You need some... but not always the dozens and dozens that are common.

Better idea or challenge "How little can you get by with"

You can start a brand new eve camp and get by with a 3x3 for a long time if you start getting pies going. I have had lives that I had rabbit pies going off natural wheat, planted the next batch from that, and had those pies ready before the berries were ready. I planted the berries the second we had bowls, splitting the soil afterwards and moving the seeds mostly then. If the task is taken on fully, you can always easily get rabbit pies ready before berries using natural resources. Once you have a bowl ready to make flour and water it, you just need to throw them together and boom a pie is made instantly, bonus points if the oven is heating up while you are firing the bowls. In that fashion, you could totally get away with skipping a bigger berry field until sheep or too many kids floating around.

What I really want to do is start a new camp with tools (colonizing the wilds coming from an established town) and push milk right away. If you start the camp with all the tools you need to make buckets, why not plant corn as first crop and live off milk until you stabilize the rest.

All of these things are razor edge, but heavily plausible, just a matter of balancing the bat right. Carrots are appealing but will chew up all the soil and skewers in the area, bananas risk bites etc.... It could always work but just little harder

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-03-17 18:16:24

I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#2 2019-03-17 18:20:36

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#3 2019-03-17 18:51:57

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#4 2019-03-17 19:05:02

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#5 2019-03-17 19:39:14

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#6 2019-03-17 19:43:33

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#7 2019-03-17 19:43:45

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#8 2019-03-17 19:48:22

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#9 2019-03-17 20:04:37

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#10 2019-03-17 20:48:10

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#11 2019-03-17 21:15:09

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#12 2019-03-17 21:28:43

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#13 2019-03-17 21:57:37

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#14 2019-03-17 22:19:07

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#15 2019-03-17 23:20:45

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#16 2019-03-17 23:31:04

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#17 2019-03-17 23:34:04

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#18 2019-03-18 01:01:09

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#19 2019-03-18 01:35:08

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#20 2019-03-18 01:43:47

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#21 2019-03-18 02:31:22

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#22 2019-03-18 10:11:05

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#23 2019-03-24 02:29:59

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

#24 2019-03-24 08:00:37

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#25 2019-03-24 10:41:19

Re: I tried to have a no gooseberry town.

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