Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

Dodge · 2019-03-19 08:01:47

I havent seen a single mega city since eve chain nerf, it would make sense if it was after steam release but now players are getting a lot better and probability should make it so that it would happen but towns always end up dying, why?

Old eve chain system was a bug and never intended, it's a good thing that it was nerfed because mega cities would exist because of exploiting this unintended feature instead of existing because the players did the right decisions and made it happen BUT now the game mechanic works against big cities and that's why all villages end up dying, how?

Established towns rarely die because of lack of food, in all the lives i lived i only experienced about 2-3 severe food shortages.

They dont die because of lack of ressources, mainly iron (but they should) , since it's related to food and shortages are rare

Murders causes some cities to die because currently murdering and healing is unbalanced since pads cant be carried there are no official medics and murderers can just trash the pads and start the murders, big towns usually have an excess wheat and a need for a sterile pad portable solution *hint hint* *wink wink*

But for most case towns die because nobody can respawn in them due to area/lineage ban, having no ban would make it so you can continue your project from last life which is not good and not intended but right now passing the ban is based on playtime and not server running time (unless im wrong) which means players who play moderatly or casually especially if they get murdered will never see this town again since it will have died out before their ban is removed.

Also current ban lifting system makes it so that someone who really wants to respawn in same town has to play to lift the ban instead of taking a break from the game

I dont know the statitics on percentage of people who play moderatly/casually but that's probably a good ammount, what usually ends up happening with big towns is since it's easier to get yum they are successful for some time until everyone gets banned from it, leaving only players that get over the ban with playtime and eventually town dies out because casual/moderate players that could save the town are banned from it.

Game mechanic should be balanced so that big cities are possible even if very hard to achieve and towns dying should be caused by players mistakes and lack of action (not getting iron, wasting too many ressources, not climbing the techtree, etc.)

Ideally going from big town to big city should be has hard as an eve run but achieving this would have a significant reward (access to more ressources), iron and oil could be that passing barrier but that's another topic.

MultiLife · 2019-03-19 08:45:33

Well, Jason wants towns to die so no wonder game mechanics support that. He wants us to play a different life each time so keeping a town going by revisiting it would be against that vision. Perhaps he is making big towns more and more rare, and we will be blaming game mechanics here, as that is always the reason.

In a nutshell: Jason wants towns to die so mechanics will always support that.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-03-19 08:46:27)

breezeknight · 2019-03-19 08:46:03

why lineages die off & with them towns is because too few people in general are playing the game
at times there are only 80 people or even 70, those are spread across all towns, even on one server those are not enough players to maintain every family line
the lowest i've ever encountered was pre-steam release & that was under 30
the highest number of players i've seen was over 500 & that was short after steam release, the game was brimming with noobs, it was insane but it was incredibly fun

no balancing or any changes to how code works can even out the lack of players

we could discuss how to bring in new players

- - -

MultiLife · 2019-03-19 08:48:04

breezeknight wrote:

why lineages die off & with them towns is because too few people in general are playing the game
at times there are only 80 people or even 70, those are spread across all towns, even on one server those are not enough players to maintain every family line
the lowest i've ever encountered was pre-steam release & that was under 30
the highest number of players i've seen was over 500 & that was short after steam release, the game was brimming with noobs, it was insane but it was incredibly fun
no balancing or any changes to how code works can even out the lack of players
we could discuss how to bring in new players
- - -

I almost blamed the numbers too but then again with more players there would be more developing towns and bigger towns at the brink of collapsing.
There is probably a sweet spot for total number of players for OHOL as the one hour lifespan is what is pacing the vitality of towns.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-03-19 08:48:44)

Thaulos · 2019-03-19 10:02:24

My guess it's probably a mix between multiple features:

1) Fertility is heavily based on temperature (clothing) and yum (food variety);
2) Area ban;
3) No distribution of births.

When a town becomes big enough, the above points will compound each other. The town will have lots of good food (more average yum) and more clothing (better temperature). This will cause the birth distribution to lean heavily towards that town. This will cause a cascade effect for a while, which by itself isn't terrible.

But what happens when you don't distribute births between areas and then add an area ban? An inevitable disaster every time.

As the town experiences an explosion of population, even if it is able to do it sustainably, a large portion of the population (ie, people who play more than one life each gaming session) will be area banned from that town. This will result in two serious problems:

a) A sharp population decline caused by a very reduced birth rate;
b) Very low ratio of experienced players since most of the "repeat players" will statistically already been born in that town and are now out of the pool of possible births.

I believe that unless we find a way to enforce a sort of distribution of players, or decrease yum/temperature weight on birth allocation, this issue will continue no matter how many players are currently playing.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-03-19 10:03:28)

Dodge · 2019-03-19 10:58:38

More people would just mean more towns with current ban lift mechanic, 70-80 players is enough to have multiple towns thrive, but since you basically have to play to be born in same town, casual/moderate players who are probably 90% of players get banned from a town and when their ban is over and they have the possibility to go back and revive or be part of the town it's already gone.

Example: One town gets really big and lots of players are in it, after a certain point all the casual/moderate players already got born once in this town, from this point they have to live 2-3 lives, or even more if they got murdered or if they murdered someone.

2-3 lives for these players could mean 2-3 days and after this time the town is already dead because they were all banned from it and couldnt be born there.

Current ban system makes it actually bad to use YUM and temperature to have many kids, because it means they maybe wont be born here again before town dies.

But if ban lift was based on time passed on server and not playtime then it wouldn't be an issue, someone plays a life in the morning then in the evening has a probability to be born in the same town or another place but since the probability is here it means from the 90% casual/moderate players that got banned maybe something like 10-15% would be born in that town, which would prevent it from dying out.

Not sure Jason doesn't want big towns, i think he wants to prevent people to live one life after the other in same place without having to wait a certain ammount of time to avoid someone continuing his own project, to make each life meaningful and not just a repetition, but with a server time based ban lift he could even extend the ban time without it affecting big towns and also it would prevent chaining lives just to get to the same place.

If you wanted to get born in same town you would just take a break from the game a couple hours then come back which would actually make the life you live more meaningful than the current system and your own project you made in last life would already be finished by someone else anyway and you would start something new.

Léonard · 2019-03-19 11:04:35

The wiki says that lineage/area bans take 1h30 in real time. It specifically states "real time".
So I don't think that's right.

I would totally agree with you however.
If the ban took playtime rather than real time to expire that would be absolutely terrible.

Tarr · 2019-03-19 11:28:31

Léonard wrote:

The wiki says that lineage/area bans take 1h30 in real time. It specifically states "real time".
So I don't think that's right.
I would totally agree with you however.
If the ban took playtime rather than real time to expire that would be absolutely terrible.

I'm almost 99% certain it's play time in another lineage and not an actual timed ban. Just like all rumors people still believe that Eve isn't banned to her own lineage/area which is most certainly false. I'm pretty sure this is one of those things that have been changed in the past that people remember the old rules and pass them on like it was before.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-03-19 11:39:17)

JonySky · 2019-03-19 11:28:50

I think the problem is simpler ... there has been a great decrease in players at OHOL ... I guess it's due to the few content updates in the game ... (useful and accessible content for all) .. .. logically if there are fewer people playing ... and you add it to the prohibition of area, it is difficult to see cities with a lot of active descendants

Léonard · 2019-03-19 12:55:05

Tarr wrote:

I'm almost 99% certain it's play time in another lineage and not an actual timed ban. Just like all rumors people still believe that Eve isn't banned to her own lineage/area which is most certainly false. I'm pretty sure this is one of those things that have been changed in the past that people remember the old rules and pass them on like it was before.

Nowadays I have more of a casual playstyle, I often play a few lives before putting the game down and coming back to it much later.
I definitely remember some odd behavior with that like for example coming back to the game and only being able to spawn in early Eve camps when absolutely no reset took place.
Your post reinforced my doubts and made me unsure enough that I went to check the code.

Turns out you're right.
It's playtime.
This explains SO MUCH.
Definitely explains why the initial area ban distance made things SO BAD.
I remember picking up the game after a break of way more than 1H30 and finding that 4 /dies from Eve camps was enough to get me banned from everywhere.
My eyes are opened! I got redpilled.
The lineage bans must have SO MUCH MORE impact on overall town fertility than I had ever imagined.
This is terrible both for towns and individuals.

From reading the code, you only get unbanned from a lineage if you:

Play 1H30 in total on other lineages after the ban
Don't get born back in that lineage for more than 24 hours (A WHOLE DAY)

This is terrible.
This means that people who have a big town playstyle are forced to either wait a whole day or play in Eve camps for 1H30.
That's insane.
I might consider running as a baby once again to avoid having unnecessary bans added to my account. After all, an Eve camp can become a city in a few hours. Why should I wait a whole day to return to it?

Last edited by Léonard (2019-03-19 12:55:51)

Daffex · 2019-03-19 13:02:24

Léonard wrote:

Tarr wrote:
I'm almost 99% certain it's play time in another lineage and not an actual timed ban. Just like all rumors people still believe that Eve isn't banned to her own lineage/area which is most certainly false. I'm pretty sure this is one of those things that have been changed in the past that people remember the old rules and pass them on like it was before.
Nowadays I have more of a casual playstyle, I often play a few lives before putting the game down and coming back to it much later.
I definitely remember some odd behavior with that like for example coming back to the game and only being able to spawn in early Eve camps when absolutely no reset took place.
Your post reinforced my doubts and made me unsure enough that I went to check the code.
Turns out you're right.
It's playtime.
This explains SO MUCH.
Definitely explains why the initial area ban distance made things SO BAD.
I remember picking up the game after a break of way more than 1H30 and finding that 4 /dies from Eve camps was enough to get me banned from everywhere.
My eyes are opened! I got redpilled.
The lineage bans must have SO MUCH MORE impact on overall town fertility than I had ever imagined.
This is terrible both for towns and individuals.
From reading the code, you only get unbanned from a lineage if you:
Play 1H30 in total on other lineages after the ban
Other lineages aren't just eve camps. 1.5 hrs is acceptable.
Don't get born back in that lineage for more than 24 hours (A WHOLE DAY)
This is terrible.
This means that people who have a big town playstyle are forced to either wait a whole day or play in Eve camps for 1H30.
That's insane.
I might consider running as a baby once again to avoid having unnecessary bans added to my account. After all, an Eve camp can become a city in a few hours. Why should I wait a whole day to return to it?

Starknight_One · 2019-03-19 13:19:00

This is a problem with cultural expectations. Gamer culture in general expects and respects accomplishment (building things, becoming skilled, et cetera).

Jason expects OHOL culture to be different. The game is based around the idea that what you do in one life is transitory. Nothing lasts, and the exigency of survival makes it difficult to finish a big project... but that's a large part of the point. In a way, the game is a love letter to Shelley's 'Ozymandius'...

"Look upon my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

We are actually seeing a lot of the sentiment that Shelley was warning about here: hubris. "I have to get back to save MY TOWN!" Really? You are the ONLY person who can make that settlement function? Overweening pride much?

Look, I get it. It's a great feeling to see something you worked on that's continued while you were doing other things. I remember living a life as my own great(5)-grandson, and telling people to shut up and let me work because I planted those berry bushes in the first place. That was an amazing experience, and people should get to have it as well - but if we're proceeding from the meta that you should always be able to get back to anyplace you want to, that experience won't be anything special. If it's a simple matter to get back to 'your' town, it cheapens much of the game play.

Sorry. Waxing a bit philosophical this morning. Carry on!

Last edited by Starknight_One (2019-03-19 13:20:07)

Tarr · 2019-03-19 14:26:32

Léonard wrote:

Nowadays I have more of a casual playstyle, I often play a few lives before putting the game down and coming back to it much later.
I definitely remember some odd behavior with that like for example coming back to the game and only being able to spawn in early Eve camps when absolutely no reset took place.
Your post reinforced my doubts and made me unsure enough that I went to check the code.
Turns out you're right.
It's playtime.
This explains SO MUCH.
Definitely explains why the initial area ban distance made things SO BAD.
I remember picking up the game after a break of way more than 1H30 and finding that 4 /dies from Eve camps was enough to get me banned from everywhere.
My eyes are opened! I got redpilled.
The lineage bans must have SO MUCH MORE impact on overall town fertility than I had ever imagined.
This is terrible both for towns and individuals.
From reading the code, you only get unbanned from a lineage if you:
Play 1H30 in total on other lineages after the ban
Don't get born back in that lineage for more than 24 hours (A WHOLE DAY)
This is terrible.
This means that people who have a big town playstyle are forced to either wait a whole day or play in Eve camps for 1H30.
That's insane.
I might consider running as a baby once again to avoid having unnecessary bans added to my account. After all, an Eve camp can become a city in a few hours. Why should I wait a whole day to return to it?

I mean when you really think about it the hour and a half ban time being all relative to played vs real makes it so much more punishing than it needs to be. If you're actively playing the game and not killing yourself early/dying early each life you're going to have to invest three hours to hit the same town twice in one day which seems rather excessive when a day is about the limit a good family will last anyways. Swapping the ban to a set time length also encourages people to play a life or two then take a break to return later when all the areas they /die from will be refreshed along with the place they wanted to revisit.

When eve chaining was a thing this wasn't a huge issue because Eves could breathe fresh air into a place by placing a fresh lineage without any players banned to the area thus increasing the amount of players who could respawn into the town. We can clearly avoid the area ban by having people walk outside of town to birth children but getting enough people on board to do that + building out of town nurseries seems like a whole lot of work people wouldn't use anyways.

Since Jason isn't going to bring back chaining I think it's reasonable to at least try swapping to a set time ban and seeing if that improves the stability of towns on the server without mucking with extra birthing mechanics.

pedrito confesiones · 2019-03-19 15:52:14

jason do not want that people realize that his game has small content that is why is killing big towns so new players will never make a techtree progress

Greep · 2019-03-19 16:41:29

Starknight_One wrote:

This is a problem with cultural expectations. Gamer culture in general expects and respects accomplishment (building things, becoming skilled, et cetera).
Jason expects OHOL culture to be different. The game is based around the idea that what you do in one life is transitory. Nothing lasts, and the exigency of survival makes it difficult to finish a big project... but that's a large part of the point. In a way, the game is a love letter to Shelley's 'Ozymandius'...
"Look upon my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
We are actually seeing a lot of the sentiment that Shelley was warning about here: hubris. "I have to get back to save MY TOWN!" Really? You are the ONLY person who can make that settlement function? Overweening pride much?
Look, I get it. It's a great feeling to see something you worked on that's continued while you were doing other things. I remember living a life as my own great(5)-grandson, and telling people to shut up and let me work because I planted those berry bushes in the first place. That was an amazing experience, and people should get to have it as well - but if we're proceeding from the meta that you should always be able to get back to anyplace you want to, that experience won't be anything special. If it's a simple matter to get back to 'your' town, it cheapens much of the game play.
Sorry. Waxing a bit philosophical this morning. Carry on!

I think it's less about pride in a particular town, so much as being able to play in big towns period. Not many people want to make berry bushes in an eve camp for the zillionth time.

Additionally, one hour is just a really short time to get to know a town, which is why some people want to be reborn a few times. Like it'd be probably more fun to play 2-3 hours and then be banned from that town forever, although the population mechanics prevent that from really being possible.

BladeWoods · 2019-03-19 20:38:07

I think a lot of people prefer eve camps/small towns, so when they are born in a big one they /die.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-19 20:41:53

i also didn't realize it was 1 1/2 hours play time as opposed to real time. That does explain a lot. I don't really think how much plays in another lineage is relevant, what's relevant is that they aren't straight back in the same town with the same people.

Thaulos · 2019-03-19 21:43:56

Guys, the problem isn't that there is an area ban of 1h30 gametime. It is completely possible to have a comprehensive area ban forcing players to live different lives in different towns but still retain sustainability in population.

Fertility/birth needs a rework in the way it distributes players around. Leaving like it is right now will just result in more rampant concentrated births followed by death by no births.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-03-19 21:44:51)

PeaGirl · 2019-03-20 01:37:39

Dodge wrote:

Current ban system makes it actually bad to use YUM and temperature to have many kids, because it means they maybe wont be born here again before town dies.

It greatly increases the wave influx of players being directed to the said towns for period of time, which may wipe even 25% of the current playerbase to those towns. Remember though the factor of people who want to start as Eves which is rather many, who search adventure and selftorture, players who online/offline.
in that case, yum and temperature bonuses may as well cause this wave effect which in most cases that I've seen, it has killed towns, since it's really impossible to have town survive 2-3 or more lines with scarce amounts of kids, especially when their state of intenions and genders vary.

So yes, it is not Eves fault really, that they can't have kids. It's the nursery bonus that causes them to become childless because most of the percetanges of playerbase that exist has been sucked dry by bigger facilities in high stage of the wave, and after it comes the downfall for next generation.
It's truly disaster if you ask me.

antking:]# · 2019-03-20 02:26:20

so now we don't have food shortages but people shortages!? I never thought I would type those words...

futurebird · 2019-03-20 05:33:26

I've seen so many towns die to lack of people. Only a few "famines" most of the time being short on food is due to
-greifers
-bad location
-too many lazy players who let the fire go out OMG.

Dodge · 2019-03-20 05:59:28

A good amount of content is either aesthetic/non useful or advanced in tech and only make sense in a big city setting.

Have you seen painted walls lately? Sure part of it is because of the ridiculously high time cost (one bucket for one wall) but we had painted walls before in cities because it's an aesthetic thing you do when everything else is doing good and towns are getting big, some sort of sign of prosperity, like dogs and other fun stuff to do that only make sense if a town is thriving and has decent size.

Same for stuff in higher tech like cars and planes, yes they should be on the rare side, sort off, but they shouldnt be almost non existant.

Also since a lot of the future content is going to be higher in tech if the towns die before because of game mechanic it doesn't make sense

Peremptive · 2019-03-20 16:13:37

player count seems stable around 130, I do see it dip bellow to 80-90 or 110 for many hours but that is mostly on times americans are sleeping.

personally I haven't played in a week, the game is a chore since temp update. it is just tiring. I gave it the benefit of the doubt, kept playing for a while despite not enjoying it. I waited for the "fixes". But the playing experience is a strange mix of boring and stressful now. It doesn't have the feel I liked from before.

On top of that, guess what, there is no fixing this game. Jason "fixed" clothes not killing you due to adding heat, so you could survive mosquito bites. Then he "fixed" something else, that changed temp calculations, so clothes kill you if you get bit by a mosquito again.

It is all spaghetti code and he can't even figure out all the things he does when he makes a change. He wrote all of it and even he can't understand it. He broke horses introducing wild lassos, breaking sheep in the process so that they eat ropes when you drop them fed? Was that fixed? Then he accidentally introduced a bug where you cant get on horse carts, leaving for a week a few hours later, doing some kind of "hack" to patch it up until he returns. This is just... I don't want to deal with this.

Last edited by Peremptive (2019-03-20 16:21:43)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-20 18:29:07

Dodge wrote:

Old eve chain system was a bug and never intended, it's a good thing that it was nerfed because mega cities would exist because of exploiting this unintended feature instead of existing because the players did the right decisions and made it happen BUT now the game mechanic works against big cities and that's why all villages end up dying, how?

I think there's a workaround. First off, big cities basically might get said to exist on some low population servers (server4, server7, and server12) come as the one's I know about. Though, perhaps you might argue that some of those towns aren't big enough to get called big cities, I don't know. Second, another sort of 'big city' I think possible, though I'm not sure it has gotten tried. Basically someone Eve chains on server1 and builds up a city. Hopefully then when the update hits, that person has their fertility period. Then the city ends up getting even bigger during that period. If the Eve can survive to 60 during that life, and then doesn't play until the update finishes, the Eve might even then come back via her Eve chain and build that city up even more. This, of course, assumes that players get moved to server1 during the update period, which could change at anytime as the time when players got fed to server15 once did happen (though that was a mistake). As to whether or not players should get fed to server1 during the update/maintainence period or a random server, I don't have an opinion on.

pein · 2019-03-21 03:48:26

i was born in star family, middle city
i was walking to the left city, having kids, one daughter wanted to explore so i shoved her the pseudo eve camp
someone made new city and was quite skilled but wasn't focusing on food at all and had no kids survive

daughter didn't want to stay and we both had sons and we all played nomad explorers
now on bright side, i got a pack much faster and interseting way than going to snare and stay back home
and was a fun life 4-5 people (6 with little niece) wondering int the wild, as we run back to right side Star town

i was born a Star after (4th outpost) and i made it to Silver family
then i was Demons, i was Rainbow (i also seen them on my map when i was Star)
most camps which are good enough will be your next camp
or you need to die on a noobcamp but you get there, stdout has the list of names, even if not the coordinates always

all this lifeswe were under 3-3 females
Demons had 12 at times, cause no one was in the area, and they started to have enough food to sustain population
basically it's just that, you are moving between bigger cities and when everyone banned out, smaller camps arise then same thing happens to them

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-03-19 08:01:47

Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#2 2019-03-19 08:45:33

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#3 2019-03-19 08:46:03

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#4 2019-03-19 08:48:04

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#5 2019-03-19 10:02:24

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#6 2019-03-19 10:58:38

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#7 2019-03-19 11:04:35

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#8 2019-03-19 11:28:31

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#9 2019-03-19 11:28:50

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#10 2019-03-19 12:55:05

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#11 2019-03-19 13:02:24

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#12 2019-03-19 13:19:00

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#13 2019-03-19 14:26:32

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#14 2019-03-19 15:52:14

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#15 2019-03-19 16:41:29

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#16 2019-03-19 20:38:07

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#17 2019-03-19 20:41:53

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#18 2019-03-19 21:43:56

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#19 2019-03-20 01:37:39

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#20 2019-03-20 02:26:20

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#21 2019-03-20 05:33:26

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#22 2019-03-20 05:59:28

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#23 2019-03-20 16:13:37

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#24 2019-03-20 18:29:07

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

#25 2019-03-21 03:48:26

Re: Big towns die because of game mechanic and not players mistakes

Board footer