The Architect's Hat

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-03 22:21:53

Here's my latest, post-lunchtime thinking about how to enable emergent property rights.

Rust effectively has property rights because it has building rights. Building rights are sufficient. If you can lock up the axe, it's your axe. If you leave it on the ground outside your building, it's anybody's axe.

And building in Rust is pretty fast and easy. It's like the first thing you do.

As I said elsewhere, unlimited easy building is a nightmare waiting to happen. And in fact, that's why Rust has building rights as a fundamental thing. Anyone can build anywhere, but after you build, no one else can build in a given radius (the tool chest hidden in your initial building determines building access in the radius). So you don't have random nonsense walls built right outside your front door.

Now, given that this is a cooperative, trans-generational game, I think that kind of radius-based thing would be overkill. But still, if building is easy, you don't want it happening everywhere without limits.

Enter the Architect's Hat. Think of it like a crown. Eve is born with the crown on her head. The crown grants certain powers that no one else has. The crown has access to certain, special recipes, including much cheaper (or even free) versions of the various building recipes. Roads cost one flat stone each, but if you enlist the help of the crown, a single flat rock allows you to make a road from here to Timbuktu. Building a pie shop would take three lives normally, but with the help of the crown, you can get the whole thing built in a minute. The crown can make infinite locks. The crown can make a fresh key for any lock where the key has been lost.

And, most importantly, the crown has the power to make more crowns, as-needed. And crowns can be voluntarily taken off and given to someone else (the heir at the end of life, or even mid-life abdication). This puts the entire thing into the player's hands. If they want a crown-free existence, they can lose the crown. If they want an everyone-equal build-o-ramma, they can duplicate the crowns until everyone has one.

This is still a very rough idea... but it seems like it would help bootstrap emergent property rights.

happynova · 2019-04-03 22:32:48

I dunno... A magic hat that lets you magically create buildings? That... doesn't really sound much in the spirit of the game we've been playing so far.

Greep · 2019-04-03 22:35:20

Maybe instead it takes two people to build a wall, similar to it taking two to tear down adobe or a berry bush? Then you can make walls cheap, like butt logs or raw clay. Although again, locked doors costing one iron per person is also an issue. Probably the bigger one as currently locks have almost exclusively been used for griefing.

Last edited by Greep (2019-04-03 22:38:03)

Thaulos · 2019-04-03 22:38:31

Magical items, ew

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-03 22:42:23

A related idea is that only elders (50+) can use the tool that is needed to plant building stakes. Call it the "elder stone" or whatever, and you have to be 50+ to pick it up.

Then building can be very cheap, but the elders are in charge of limiting it.

If building materials are too heavy for elders to pick up, then you've got the necessary cooperation/consensus mechanic.

Anyway, the core idea here is that buildings aren't needed for survival as much as they are needed for social organization purposes. Thus, it isn't suddenly making the game too easy if making buildings is easy. It's orthogonal to the difficulty of survival in the game.

Twisted · 2019-04-03 22:44:14

Why would a hat have intrinsic special powers? How does that make any sense?

I'm with happynova, a magic hat that gives you special powers sounds like the total opposite of what OHOL is all about. I feel like it would make the game super boring - either you have the crown and doing things is trivial, or you don't have the hat and it's a feelbad moment because you're being punished for no reason.

If I wanted to build big projects with a magic hat I'd just go play Minecraft or Terraria instead.

And why would a magic hat suddenly enable property rights? I honestly don't understand this train of thought at all.

Tarr · 2019-04-03 22:47:51

So we're going to start to force Eve spawns for magic builder hats we fly out to collect to build in big cities? You're still going to need to make a bunch of boxes to solve your storage issues because clutter is going to be even worse with people putting buildings everywhere.

The issue isn't we can't make houses/buildings/etc it's that we have no reason to do so in the current game. I personally can kick out four (unfloored) 8x8 rooms by myself using just a cart which means with just two builders you could rather quickly put up a rather organized city of buildings. We don't need a magic hat to build, we need to have a reason to want to do this.

Bob 101 · 2019-04-03 22:48:43

Seems op. But then again Building will need to get easier eventually.

What about a blueprint system. You plan the layout of towns and then people just have to add resources. Maybe it's a bit cheaper but not a creative mode hat.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-04-03 22:50:21)

Twisted · 2019-04-03 22:51:23

Tarr wrote:

The issue isn't we can't make houses/buildings/etc it's that we have no reason to do so in the current game. I personally can kick out four (unfloored) 8x8 rooms by myself using just a cart which means with just two builders you could rather quickly put up a rather organized city of buildings. We don't need a magic hat to build, we need to have a reason to want to do this.

This. In real life you build buildings to protect yourself and your belongings from the weather. They're a positive thing.

In game they're a tradeoff - on one hand, they look neat and can sometimes help direct people to a certain task. On the other, they cost resources, and (more importantly) they destroy valuable real estate that could have been used for storage instead.

futurebird · 2019-04-03 22:57:03

Would be more excited if I could hang items (maybe not every item, maybe just tools) on the wall. Or if there were shelves or more stacking.

Amon · 2019-04-03 23:01:38

Suppose we had more wildlife. Flocks of birds that start gobbling up seeds if too many are oresent in a region and not in a building.

If population is high, racoons or monkeys that eatup unprotected food or steal tools and bowls

Granaries were built to not only store but protect.. This might be incentive too.

Also they should only ever be in issue if the village enters 'excess' mode.
This way eve camps remain safe and forces more complex camps to devise extra stirage options for food and designated places.
Also give high capacity sacks ;( please. Ir 9 item shelves and tables. To make houses prettier. People either make useful or pretty things

Glassius · 2019-04-03 23:12:42

From happy hippie communas we will go to Soviet communas, where rulers owns everything and other players are equally a piece of shit. This cannot end right

antking:]# · 2019-04-03 23:34:40

Glassius wrote:

From happy hippie communas we will go to Soviet communas, where rulers owns everything and other players are equally a piece of shit. This cannot end right

so what's better hippie or soviet?

Turnipseed · 2019-04-03 23:57:31

Sounds like a bad idea...

I like the idea of houses being easier to make, but it wont help trade even with the house/storefront there is no reason to trade currently

honikker · 2019-04-03 23:58:49

I dunno if what I read was true or not, but I did read somewhere that the game takes place post-apocalypse. I think. I could'a dreamed about reading it. Wouldn't be the first time I've mixed up dreams with reality. Anyway, along that vein, why would the hat have to be magical? It could be some kind'a left-over nanotech from civilization before it fell, supposing that civilization was further along than ours is. Maybe it could be fueled by some rare mineral so it's not so op, so once it runs outta juice someone has to go find more.

Regardless, more hats is never a bad thing.

Hats are life.

antking:]# · 2019-04-04 00:04:05

the difference with real life building vs OHOL is that people not only have all materials on cite but have different materials then what we build with... such as brick, and wood.... (adobe is a type of primitive concrete)

I think with more building materials then the more houses you would see popping up!

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-04-04 00:06:48

If I got an architect hat, I would use it to build massive road and floor board systems, but I still wouldn't build walls.

Don't try a magic hat, give us reasons to build completed buildings. You got half way there with the temperature update. Make buildings more storage efficient, and give us ways to warm them without burning through our firewood supplies. Give us a charcoal stove we can build into a wall, and a way to add shelving for storage. While we are at it, give us some new wall materials that accept paint. Wood panel walls?

Also, I'd still like for doors to not block paths. Getting in and out of buildings is a huge chore, and that is a disincentive for building. The springy doors are cool, but they don't help. I was trying to serve pies out of a bakery with a springy door, and it was super annoying to have to wait for the door to close, so I could open it again and grab the next basket without getting auto-directed halfway around the building before I could stop myself.

Spockulon · 2019-04-04 00:11:43

Twisted wrote:

Why would a hat have intrinsic special powers? How does that make any sense?
I'm with happynova, a magic hat that gives you special powers sounds like the total opposite of what OHOL is all about. I feel like it would make the game super boring - either you have the crown and doing things is trivial, or you don't have the hat and it's a feelbad moment because you're being punished for no reason.
If I wanted to build big projects with a magic hat I'd just go play Minecraft or Terraria instead.
And why would a magic hat suddenly enable property rights? I honestly don't understand this train of thought at all.

Why would a couple of stone blocks and a ritual involving a 'nosaj' bring about an apocalypse? There's definitely a bit of fantasy/illusion/magic to this game, it's just all down to perception.

That said, the ability to widely distribute so many of these hats so easily, as Jason initially suggest, would most likely be utter chaos, and I could definitely foresee some players going the "minecraft building project" route, and if I wanted that I'd play Minecraft too.

I am intrigued by his idea of solving the issue of 'property rights' in-game, but this one could have many unintended consequences. It'd still be fun to see what players would do with that power.

Glassius · 2019-04-04 00:20:26

antking:]# wrote:

so what's better hippie or soviet?

In reality hippie (but also jewish "kibbutz"), because it is voluntary and you can leave it. In Soviet communa everybody tried to escape and eacapees were being arrested and shooted for it.

In game? I hope we will not see

But also, I agree with BlueDiamondAvatar. Buildings are more common nowadays, which means the pros of them are very close to cons! Pros:
- give property feature
- give warm
- are nice
Cons
- take much space
- block movement trough limited doors
- expensive

Putting shelves, stoves and hearthstones on the side of wall, within its tile, will be very beneficial. Also, we are not using locks not because they are hard to do, but because they are so easy to grief.

Redram · 2019-04-04 00:47:11

Don't like this idea. Buildings are often the only thing that's left of a civilization. They SHOULD be hard to build. As Tarr said, give us REASONS to build them, and it will happen. I think chasing some ephemeral version of 'property rights' in a game where you play for an hour is a wild goose chase.

antking:]# · 2019-04-04 00:57:51

to establish property what if you could put a sign on lets say a door and paint who it belongs too! that would create a sense of property!

ryanb · 2019-04-04 01:00:51

This would completely discourage playing the game without the architect's hat. Not only would it take longer but it would consume more resources for something someone else can do for nearly free. This would certainly add drama over who gets a hat, but not a good kind of drama.

If you want to restrict who can build some objects like walls, consider adding a blueprint system where the person wearing an architect's hat can plan where walls should go, perhaps with a semi-transparent graphic. Then everyone can help contribute to this by filling in the blueprint.

I'm not sold on even that idea, but it feels better than a magic hat.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-04 01:01:50

Jason, I think OHOL is best when you dont try to fix huge problems this fast.
The design of buildings isnt bad, lack of static workplaces is, convection being much weaker than radiance is.

Decay, iron nerf, big server, pump and heat updates were important and helpful. Apocalypse and region ban not so much.

It was seeing decay update that made me play, realistic survival is great but gamey shenanigans like this hat not so much

breezeknight · 2019-04-04 01:10:14

i suggested in the caring thread Eve naming town + an option for a group of town's residents naming town as well if the player who was the original Eve renounces the town's name
if from that naming token, from the marker a radius would span, then this would determine where the town is & where no more
that way in between towns there would be noman's land, this is the area where wars could happen if towns grow & spread

wars are not possible if there are no real towns, with a designated area & an actual name
what we have now is roleplay towns, someone came up with some name & made a sign, nobody really cares for that, maybe the initial maker but not anybody else

i agree with the hat idea, though it doesn't need to be an actual hat

but i would rather prefer that hat to be bound only to the naming Eve or if she renounces the naming, then the naming group of residents

we need in game something more social, a cooperating group of those who work & care, those people have to become more empowered
though i wouldn't give the Eve the power to give her hat away
i really would prefer to have it bound to those responsible for the naming only, either Eve or that group of people, only those would be the elders

i have no idea how this would actually play out, but we need a change in game, atm the gameplay is stagnant & cooperation is a huge exception among mainly egotistic endevours without consideration of the greater good or communicated agreement

btw we have already some sort of empowered elders in game, it comes from the knives carried in backpack, those empower to some actions & it works rather well, if people care to participate that way & act responsible
at some point every player gets it, most remain peaceful, some decide to grief, so the usual social occurance

so maybe instead of a hat, an Eve should be born with an adorned knife, the founder's knife
or she could be only empowered to smith it later in game herself

she could decide either to take it with her when she dies, then nobody else would have its benefits
or she could decide to bequeath it to a resident of her choosing

i am not sure how the multiplication of that knife would work out or if a singular founder's knife would work better

but i would actually prefer it to be a knife, which would be used in the same way for practical work as the usual knives

& though the magic is tempting, i agree with BlueDiamondAvatar, i'd prefer better buildings, better materials, more diverse materials, storage options, better reasons to build houses
maybe a slightly easier building options with the founder's knife, no overkill magic, don't know ...

- - -

Spoonwood · 2019-04-04 01:12:36

I don't like the hat idea. It's likely to lead to murders and it's like a magical superpower. No, the apocalypse did not give any character magical superpowers like this magic hat idea would.

The thing about buildings and flooring comes as that they do come as useful IN A JUNGLE OR DESERT. People don't choose to live there, because of a few reasons:

1. The mosquitoes in a jungle.

2. Getting some clothing comes as faster than building than a suitable room with suitable flooring.

3. Fire gets you to perfect.

4. There's no way to help the farmers in a jungle or desert.

With that in mind, here's some ideas towards making buildings and flooring more likely to get used more often. I don't know if it's enough.

1. Create little oasis tiles in jungles or deserts where the player has perfect temperature. Thus, there would exist perfect temperature spots for babies and for want to be mothers. This way a jungle or desert Eve camp can make it to flooring and buildings.

2. Make the default temperature of jungle or desert as close to the center as a good clothing set takes the player in a grassland.

3. Have a proper building with complete flooring take the player all the way to perfect temperature wise.

4. Leave the farmers alone. This way clothing still has uses around camp.

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