The Midnight Plan

Potjeh · 2019-04-04 19:37:48

I'd like it better if property edges were auto-approved, but there was a set period of time where they could be freely violated by anyone in which case the property would dissolve. Basically Remus jumping over your furrow.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-04-04 19:38:15)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 19:39:51

Thaulos, to answer:

--Yes, when you die, ownership will go to the oldest person who currently has access, as granted by you. If you want to pick a younger heir, remove access to the older ones before you die.

--Children do not automatically get entry. They can be easily added by name or by "You can enter" Though maybe, for convenience, they will be added by default and need to be removed manually... still, it doesn't allow cool emergent stuff like default child gates.

--There's no limit to one gate owned by you. No need to remove yourself. Leave town and create your own gate out there. Also, it's not property owned by you. Just a gate. And the fence connected to that gate defines access, because the gate is the only way in.

--No limit on plot size. Subject to elder approval. Again, it's not really a plot. You can put a gate anywhere, even with no fence. The gate is the atom. The game has no concept of a plot.

--Fight against a gate by killing the owner. If they have no heirs, it will open when the owner dies. If there are heirs, maybe they are more amenable to letting you in. If not, kill them too. You can starve an owner out (can't imagine a region so big that it is internally sustainable forever---eventually run out of iron!)

--If elders approve a fence around your fence, you will be trapped in. Bad elders. Also, there's no requirement that a fence has a gate. So elders can approve perma-blocked areas that no one can enter (which will last for 2 hours max, if no one repairs them).

--Access is to a gate only, not a plot. So you are trapped inside if someone invites you in and then revokes access, or you walk through an open gate, and the owner closes it behind you, when you don't own the gate yourself. No problem here... I mean, anyone in the game can stab you at any time too, right? So the whole thing is about building trust.

And yes, because property access is attached to one living person, players are in control, because they are (always) in control of that living person's life, using the existing mechanics of the game.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-04 19:44:49

Crowns might work, since apparently governments confer historic property rights. The owner of a crown would be a monarch with the ability to grant property rights.

But, then killing people with crowns would become even more likely. And if the owner of a crown had friends to back up their power, there would exist internal civil wars and more blood baths. Jason, you've expressed a desire to see generation length be longer with you wondering about why longer lasting families haven't existed. Families do sometimes die due to the females getting murdered. Property rights, no matter how they would come about, would almost surely lead to more killing with the way people are in games "(that's my backpack!" she said before she murdered him with a knife). As a result lineages wouldn't last so long.

I think you must choose whether you want longer lineages or property rights. The two are not very compatible in my opinion.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-04 19:46:49

If all elders can grant property rights, it might lead to elders killing other elders to control property rights. Younger people might then take revenge on behalf of those elders, possibly leading to internal civil wars and shorter lineages.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 19:48:37

Potjeh, that's a pretty amazing idea...

Like you build a cheap fence and gate, but if anyone touches it in the next 3 minutes, it falls over.

If it survives, then it becomes permanent and the gate access assignable and inheritable.

If you're doing this in the middle of town, people will be like, "No, fuck you," and knock it over.

If you're doing it in an out-of-the-way place that no one cares about, you'll probably get away with it.

If you want to build a gate around the whole town, you have to get everyone on board... they have to trust you, that you will keep the gate open generally, and grant access liberally. If they don't trust you, they'll knock it over.

This is the basic concept of homesteading. Staking a claim on abandoned land, and then giving time for anyone to come forward and contest you.

Also, the same thing with gates falling over when the owner dies with no heirs, and fences auto-decaying in 2 hours if no one fixes them up.

Any holes in this version of the idea? It gets rid of the weird elder thing.

Thaulos · 2019-04-04 19:54:45

I really dont like the idea of not being able to breach the property at all. Sure I could starve them out but what if thry have tpns of food? What stops them from hanging on the door waiting for people to pass by only to stab them and taking one step inside their property?

What happens when multiple griefers make tons of small properties all around town where they can just flee inside?

This is absolutely broken

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 19:55:01

I do worry that the "no disapproval" method is riskier than the "approval required" method.

Approval required can be exploited by people working in teams. That is bad.

But "no disapproval" can be exploited by an individual working in secret. What if they make a really long fence very far away from the village, with no gate, and no one notices for a long time?

Potjeh · 2019-04-04 19:59:29

You could make disapproval time scale with size of property, and enforce some kind of minimum aspect ratio for a property so people can't wall in a town with small area that's really long and thin.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 20:02:00

Thaulos, I didn't say that property fences would stop arrows.... I mean, there's going to be griefing with anything in the game. You've got your ways of dealing with griefers already.

But who approved all those small properties for griefers?

Maybe one elder isn't enough. Maybe it takes three elders.

Maybe "no disapproval" is better in that case, where the property only exists with full village consensus. Then the griefer would need to convince everyone to let them build a hideout in the middle of town.

And if a griefer keeps "interrupting" fences that everyone else approves of, you know what to do...

But I don't mind hideouts, generally. That's a cool story.... bandit ran into the woods, and we followed him to his hideout. He wouldn't come out willingly, so we starved him out. Jeez, how many pies does he have in there? We hear a groan, and the gate finally crumbles. We burst into the hideout to find his skeleton, with a half-eaten pie in his bony white hand.

Thaulos · 2019-04-04 20:07:07

I like potjeh homestead version. no elders required.

We just need to be able to counter this feature when it gets abused. Right now if someone stole a cart of pies and put it inside their locked building. Players could go and get a pickaxe and then kill the thief.

Redram · 2019-04-04 20:09:21

Any resource that is somewhat remote can be walled off for 2 hours by griefers. Oil wells come to mind. Easy way to block off bear caves for a time. Easy way to wall off mosquitoes unless they can fly over. Easy way to make a road un-usable for 2 hours. Hard to know what else they'll get away with it beyond that. I think you'll end up with either people not using it, or towns will be surrounded on the periphery with inconvenient 2 hour roadblocks. Also still an easy early sheep pen.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-04 20:12:31)

Dodge · 2019-04-04 20:12:03

A paper deed could be linked to the fences and everyone that touches it is granted permission to access property until they die, deed could be locked away or hidden but if last person in deed dies then the deed becomes worthless and someone else can make another one and claim the fences and property.

As to some magical force preventing anyone to enter i dont like it that much, imo it would be better if it were trapped fences/gates that would make noise/sound each time someone not permitted tries to enter, and the person permitted would know how to avoid the traps and not make noise we could even imagine that the deed has some sort of plan on it indicating where the traps are to avoid trigering them.

Maybe intruders could even get marked some way visually when they cross gate/fences

Everyone would hear the sound of the triggered traps but the owners would hear them from a longer distance since they are paying attention to where their property is and any sounds that would come from that direction

This coupled with mechanical code locks to avoid intruders accessing the house with the valuable stuff

Or instead of the sound indicator it could even be deadly traps that delimit the area, owners could cross it since they know from the deed where the traps are but any non permitted person would get killed/wounded by the traps

So not a magical barrier but an actual physical barrier that makes logical sense as to why some people would be able to cross it and some wouldn't

Redram · 2019-04-04 20:15:41

Dodge wrote:

This coupled with mechanical code locks ...

Why bother with codes when Jason has already indicated that a locked item could remember it's owners and let them in/deny them automatically. Code just adds another layer of inconvenience. If you have permission to use the lock, the locked item functions normally for you, if you don't it doesn't. They key or code or whatever is implied, don't make people have to do yet another step.

Thaulos · 2019-04-04 20:19:45

A sound/visual cue of someone breaking access rights or tearing down a wall or fence could be enough.

Locks would still have uses for inner areas perhaps for personal chests. Or as sign locks.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-04 20:40:57)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 20:29:00

Yeah, that's what I'm worried about with remote resources being too easy to claim.

Actually, the core problem here is the difference between fences and gates. It's a tough one. I drew a distinction between the two because I wanted fine-grained access control, which makes sense if attached to a specific gate. You can come in my back gate, but not my front gate.

The gate is nice because it can crumble when the last owner dies.

But what about the fence? You don't want fine-grained access control to each fence piece. You just need it to block people, because in any "good" scenario, it's all about who goes through the gate. Your heirs inherit the gate, so they inherit the fence too, because the gate grants access to what's "inside" the fence.

But what about gateless fences? Who owns those? When do they crumble? That's what we're talking about here, with the two-hour griefing.

I also don't want constant maintenance to be necessary, generally. So if the owner of the fence dies, I don't want the heirs to have to run around and repair the whole thing right away.

The gates also permit fine-grained heirship. You get the house, but not the barn. If a fence doesn't have an owner list, then who inherits it on death?

Elder approval solves this somewhat, except in the case of a complicit elder. Then you're in for real trouble, as the pair wall off the whole place right before your eyes.

Maybe it's a hybrid. Elder approves your gate and fence, but it remains "shaky" for 3 minutes, and if anyone touches it, it falls over. So you can't unilaterally do things in secret, nor can an old/young griefer pair ruin the center of town.

The last case is an old-young pair who wall something off in the hinterlands with no one noticing.... maybe that's okay?

What if the number of shaky minutes are inversely proportional to how many people are around? So in the center of town, it's short (3 minutes), but out in the hinterlands, it's much longer (30 minutes). Remote areas that people care about would eventually be visited and noticed, and the fences knocked down.

Bob 101 · 2019-04-04 20:36:09

Seems reasonable enough, I'd rather not have ownership so far this is the best option you've proposed.

ryanb · 2019-04-04 20:41:31

I like this idea more than the magic hat. I also prefer not requiring an elder for anything. This still feels like magic though.

I would prefer it if property rights were more of a communication point instead of an absolute “you cannot do this” gameplay restriction. What if a fence just has a sign that is automatically read when you cross it? “Jack’s House, do not enter without permission” would get the point across. Players can still violate the area but that is obviously griefing and could be delt with by the community.

Communication gives an idea of what area you are entering and what can be done there. You can make a pie shop and communicate how much they cost, or a nursery saying only women and children are allowed, or a blacksmith area saying “workers only”.

Every one of these areas would have valid exceptions for entering, but that is up to the players of that area and not restricted by the game with magic words.

Last edited by ryanb (2019-04-04 20:43:19)

Turnipseed · 2019-04-04 20:42:05

I like the idea of easy wicker fences, but i think walls and buildings are over priced as well. (Or at least the materials you use to make them are too scarce.

Im not saying we shouldnt have to travel or work to make them but it dosnt take a whole swamp worth of clay to make a medium sized building out of adobe. Or all the stones in a 40 mile radius to build a town center.

I understand its ment to be an acomplishment but our mud huts and simple stacked stone walls shouldent be a multi generational project.

Thaulos · 2019-04-04 20:43:55

You don't need magic fences though! Any cheap fence that anyone can build will be ok. You only really need to worry about the gate/door.

Redram · 2019-04-04 20:46:51

I think 'free and easy' is going to make this a bad system. I think it will make it too easy for griefers to abuse. And then fence-building will be considered griefing, just like dog breeding. I think the systems we have would work fine, if you fixed locks. Who cares if you can't 'own' anything for the first two gens until you get lock tools? Everyone needs to share everything at that critical stage anyway, or the town will die.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-04 20:48:12)

Turnipseed · 2019-04-04 20:48:30

Redram wrote:

I think 'free and easy' is going to make this a bad system. I think it will make it too easy for griefers to abuse. And then fence-building will be considered griefing, just like dog breeding. I think the systems we have would work fine, if you fixed locks. Who cares if you can't 'own' anything for the first two gens until you get lock tools? Everyone needs to share everything at that critical stage, or the town will die anyway.

How would you propose "fixing" locks? they work as intended.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-04 20:54:29

Redram wrote:

I think 'free and easy' is going to make this a bad system. I think it will make it too easy for griefers to abuse. And then fence-building will be considered griefing, just like dog breeding. I think the systems we have would work fine, if you fixed locks. Who cares if you can't 'own' anything for the first two gens until you get lock tools? Everyone needs to share everything at that critical stage, or the town will die anyway.

Also, fucking bags.

I think this entire discussion is pointless because the problem of property has never been storage.

When did any of you need more than 4 bag slots for inside-town tasks? When did you need to keep a pie so someone else doesnt eat it?

Property will never matter if we can provide for entire generations after some compost cycles.

Tea · 2019-04-04 20:56:08

Does it has to be a 50 year old person ? Can't it be those who hit 40 or 45 ?

When I only have ten minutes to live, I would want to check on my kids, see if there are jobs that needs to be assigned to people and just chit chat rather than approve every single tile of fence that someone wants to build.

Also needing two or more elder to approve one single building is a bit much.

But so far the idea seems interesting.

Would it be possible to build a fence on a wooden floor ? Let's say you want to made some sort of entrance hall in your house with fences. Currently you can't put fences on wooden flooring.

Thaulos · 2019-04-04 20:58:44

@Jason, it is quite strange for me to see someone who wants in-game drama, conflict and player "driven stories" to then design a system that does not allow players to do actions like: break in a house to steal food; chase a killer to their hideout and kill him; or breaking someone out of prison.

Wasn't one of your initial scenarios a mother with a baby that wants to steal a car from a town? How does this system help with that?

How does this system insensitive wars of any kind?

How can conflicts be resolved if people just tuck in behind their magic fences?

This elder driven magic fences feature serves no solution to any of the scenarios you presented as being evidence of something missing ingame.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-04 21:00:48)

Tarr · 2019-04-04 21:00:06

This idea really gets worse more and more with each post in my opinion. Instead of making the buildings more useful so people want to make them organically you're adding weird magic fences and gates. Please make sure if you do include wizard hat/robe/wand with the update so the village wiz- I mean elder can be properly dressed for the occasion.

If anything this gives us even more reasons to not build buildings in the first place. Haha, whoops all the doors are now gates so sorry to everyone inside the building. Now you're locked inside with the only fix being killing whoever owns the magically locked gates who has likely long since left the scene. Whoops, I've passed the rights to my newly blocked off oil rig to a baby who won't be able to give access to anyone else until she's old enough to speak the magic password. I heard you guys liked openings doors so I'm going to pass on each of these gates locked in a row to a different person in the village so have fun making everyone gather together to be able to get into a certain place.

So sure, you'll see an increase in random fenced areas like you want but it just adds to the problems buildings have already. The only actual use I can see for this type of update is for griefing and making incredibly cheap animal pens.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-04-04 21:00:35)

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-04-04 19:37:48

Re: The Midnight Plan

#27 2019-04-04 19:39:51

Re: The Midnight Plan

#28 2019-04-04 19:44:49

Re: The Midnight Plan

#29 2019-04-04 19:46:49

Re: The Midnight Plan

#30 2019-04-04 19:48:37

Re: The Midnight Plan

#31 2019-04-04 19:54:45

Re: The Midnight Plan

#32 2019-04-04 19:55:01

Re: The Midnight Plan

#33 2019-04-04 19:59:29

Re: The Midnight Plan

#34 2019-04-04 20:02:00

Re: The Midnight Plan

#35 2019-04-04 20:07:07

Re: The Midnight Plan

#36 2019-04-04 20:09:21

Re: The Midnight Plan

#37 2019-04-04 20:12:03

Re: The Midnight Plan

#38 2019-04-04 20:15:41

Re: The Midnight Plan

#39 2019-04-04 20:19:45

Re: The Midnight Plan

#40 2019-04-04 20:29:00

Re: The Midnight Plan

#41 2019-04-04 20:36:09

Re: The Midnight Plan

#42 2019-04-04 20:41:31

Re: The Midnight Plan

#43 2019-04-04 20:42:05

Re: The Midnight Plan

#44 2019-04-04 20:43:55

Re: The Midnight Plan

#45 2019-04-04 20:46:51

Re: The Midnight Plan

#46 2019-04-04 20:48:30

Re: The Midnight Plan

#47 2019-04-04 20:54:29

Re: The Midnight Plan

#48 2019-04-04 20:56:08

Re: The Midnight Plan

#49 2019-04-04 20:58:44

Re: The Midnight Plan

#50 2019-04-04 21:00:06

Re: The Midnight Plan

Board footer