The Midnight Plan

Booklat1 · 2019-04-04 21:00:14

Thaulos wrote:

How can conflicts be resolved if people just tuck in behind their magic fences?

Greep · 2019-04-04 21:11:41

I like this idea as is in the OP. Yes it doesn't allow for breakins and drama and it's a bit cheapy magicky, but baby steps guys. If you actually have a way of making property areas in this particular game in another way without massive changes like extended lifetimes I'm all ears.

As for griefing, you'll need an elder griefer AND a younger griefer that are NOT twins. That's a griefer accomplishment imo. For small griefing, you can already do this solo with locks. For large griefing, your town is a fail if you can't move one twig.

My only thought is you should have a max size to these of about 9-12 enclosed area, or it cheapens other buildings.

Booklat1 wrote:

Thaulos wrote:
How can conflicts be resolved if people just tuck in behind their magic fences?

Sounds pretty realistic, and sounds like it'd add some hilarious stories. But they gotta eat sometime. I'd think maybe if you have X amount of people (4?) you can bust down a property maybe?

Edit: My only concern, is the usual case of people taking lots and lots of stuff and locking it away for a ways is only partially solved. At least it is freed at the end of lifetime, but maybe these properties should only be allowed to be extremely small, like 3x2 maxed enclosed space. Although again, if you have implement the X or more people to bust a place down, this is not an issue.

Another small issue: I can see cities getting.... overwhelmingly huge. The amount of people that live in a city over time is staggering. Elders of course need to allow the ability for someone to reclaim an old house, and again, this sounds like these things need to be super small.

Some more thoughts: Probably the area immediately in front of your door should be unbuildable on to prevent people griefing your house. Then if you hadd a few doors it'd be very difficult for anyone to block entrance. Probably not needed at launch, just a thought.

Last edited by Greep (2019-04-04 21:25:05)

honikker · 2019-04-04 21:19:14

Haven't read the entire three pages of this thread so I dunno if anyone brought this up already, but if it would be possible to wall in babies and keep them from going out into the wilderness 'til they're old enough, would it also be possible to trap people indefinitely? That sounds like a step toward making jails possible. And also dictatorships, where the dictator keeps everyone from leaving. Until said dictator is removed from the picture, anyway. Unless everyone on the access list can allow/disallow access.

Bob 101 · 2019-04-04 21:23:32

The idea seems okay but this should be rooted in science not magic.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-04 21:24:31

honikker wrote:

Haven't read the entire three pages of this thread so I dunno if anyone brought this up already, but if it would be possible to wall in babies and keep them from going out into the wilderness 'til they're old enough, would it also be possible to trap people indefinitely? That sounds like a step toward making jails possible. And also dictatorships, where the dictator keeps everyone from leaving. Until said dictator is removed from the picture, anyway. Unless everyone on the access list can allow/disallow access.

imprisoned families have existed before

Twisted · 2019-04-04 21:24:35

While I really disliked the magic hat idea, I do like this one a lot better.

I like it because it doesn't uproot the existing conventions of the game, but it allows more possibilities for interesting scenarios to occur.

I like the elder approved version better than free placement.

I think that each tile of the fence should use a separate item to create, it should not be infinite. Yew shafts might be perfect for this, as they're not used for many items currently. Stack of two yew shafts + flint chip = stack of ten fence stakes. That would allow you to easily outline your land with not that much effort, although if you do end up going with one-item-per-tile, I think another tree that gives branches similar to yew should be implemented, one that spawns in a different biome. I really like Amon's suggestion. It should be a bit of work to get the fence materials, but it shouldn't take too long.

Some potential issues:

How do animals work with property fences? Are they passable like home markers, or are they blockers like normal fences?

Can a person carrying a baby enter the fence? What if someone decides to kidnap all the town babies and hide them in their area, and the poor babies can't get out and they starve.

How many gates can a person own? Is there a possiblity that all this additional data strains the server?

The elder stone should be a temporary object. Something like sharp stone + round stone = elder stone, elder stone + 30 seconds = round stone. It should be easy to make but it should revert quickly, otherwise you could have elders covering the town in unpickupable items. Also, if an elder dies with the stone in hand you will not be able to move their bones if it doesn't revert quickly.

It maybe shouldn't be called Elder Stone as that sounds very magical - Property Marker/Property Stone might be better? But on the other hand the very name Elder Stone explains why you can't pick it up.

What about this - you place the fence marker, an elder approves it with an elder stone, and then there's a three minute window where any elder can remove the approved fence.

I really didn't like any of your previous suggestions, but this one is very interesting and I think I would enjoy it.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 21:44:17

Will make fences extremely cheap for now, just to test the idea and see where it goes without limits. Cheap to place proposed fences, and cheap to clean up (bundle of twigs puts down fences, and just as easily picks them back up).

Haven't figured out the animal thing. I don't think these are just free pens. Probably animals cross these property fences. They are low fences. They don't stop arrows either.

Babies can be carried across. They only stop humans from walking.

Person can own unlimited gates. Each approved by an elder, of course. I can't imagine it straining the server. We only check ownership when someone tries to walk across a gate. Then we ask, "Who owns it, and who else has permission to pass?"

And yes on elder property stone being temporary. I imagine it's flint to make an elder stone, and flint to turn it back to a regular stone. Easy on, easy off.

I hear you on the three minute window for any elder to disapprove. I still worry about the lucky old/young griefing pair, when no other elders are around to stop them. That's why it could probably, safely be ANYONE who gets 3 minutes to stop the fence from becoming permanent. True village consensus. Fences are a big enough deal that we want to make sure no one is mad about this fence.

In a lone duo situation, they could really go buck wild building crazy fences everywhere, but who are they hurting?

Redram · 2019-04-04 21:53:31

Turnipseed wrote:

How would you propose "fixing" locks? they work as intended.

Oh they were intended as griefing tools? They were intended as wastes of steel and time? I posted about this in the 'architect hat thread three hours before Jason made this one. Guess I'll copy it here:

If you want locks and keys to not be a giant waste of resources, you need to make ingots able to have a small part split off, like how clay nozzles are made. Give a small chance of destroying the ingot if you like (1 in 20 at most) Then the 'steel chunk' can be used to make the locks and keys. Now make it so that once they are placed, the key becomes part of the person. Nobody wants to waste space carrying around a key. That person now opens that door/chest/whatever, simply by opening it in a normal fashion. The player who 'owns' a key to that item can also make a new key for that item, by using a chisel (or whatever) on the locked item. So now you can pass keys to those you want to. Now - and this is key - if all the owners of keys or a locked item are dead, the lock vanishes. So now the worst a griefer can do is one life worth of locking up a room. Oh, and btw, when you look at a locked door or item, it tells you who owns the key(s) (maybe echoes to the room, like reading paper). So by the way you can find out the specific griefer who has locked that item. And if they're still around, kill them, thus unlocking it. The griefer can of course take off into the wilderness never to be seen again. Good riddance, griefer can enjoy their life of solitude and their lock vanishes after they die anyway. Meanwhile, town has 1 less griefer. Congratulations, now locks are convenient, not a waste of steel, and not a good griefing tool.

Note that this makes locks exactly the same as what Jason then suggested - There's no 'key' to encumber you, you can pass a copy of the 'key' to anyone you like, and the lock disappears after you die. Add free to miniscule iron cost, and it's way better lock system than now. I wasn't even sure that it was possible for a locked item to 'know' who has 'keys' on them and remember that, but that's exactly what Jason is proposing. The difference is Jason's idea has 'free and easy' fences - which sound to me like a good new griefing tool - and also possibly magical and inconvenient elder permissions. Also my suggestion requires the town to still have at least 1 ingot of steel around to pass on keys. Jason's is magically forever.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-04 21:54:35)

The_Anabaptist · 2019-04-04 21:58:45

So a griefer can build a fence and then just relocate all the important stuff into it? And if he or she dies, well then it's still locked? Perfect...

The_Anabaptist

I look forward to the day a group of griefers build a fence around an entire town and lock everyone out of it...

Greep · 2019-04-04 22:03:43

It'd be unlocked when they die. But yeah that's why I say maybe these houses should have a very small max size.

Actually, maybe as a test you could be much less ambitious jason, and just make lockers that work the same way instead of houses. You wouldn't have neat looking towns, but it'd be a good test system and would far limit how much stuff you can take. 4 stored things just like a wooden box, and you get one locker which is approved by an elder.

Last edited by Greep (2019-04-04 22:11:01)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 22:08:19

Redram:

Property fences is not possible without quite a bit of coding on my end.

But the "magic" coding of an access control list modifiable with speech is quite a bit easier than coding locks to work the way that you suggest.

Also, is there no way to revoke a key from someone?

The problem with leveraging locks for this purpose, separate from the implementation issues, is that locks are useless without walls, and walls are still expensive. I feel like I'd have to make walls cheaper too, and then that would open up its own collection of griefing issues.

If these things are cheap, you need some kind of consensus attached to such activities, which is where the old architect's hat idea came from. You can't just have cheap walls built everywhere.

You know what's worse than a griefer with a lock? A griefer who just walled you in.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-04 22:12:17

jasonrohrer wrote:

The problem with leveraging locks for this purpose, separate from the implementation issues, is that locks are useless without walls, and walls are still expensive. I feel like I'd have to make walls cheaper too, and then that would open up its own collection of griefing issues.
If these things are cheap, you need some kind of consensus attached to such activities, which is where the old architect's hat idea came from. You can't just have cheap walls built everywhere.

Adobe walls arent expensive tbh, 19 + a door and you have a 3x3 internal area.

Also, you can still use locks in chests which isnt even hard to do at all.

Greep · 2019-04-04 22:13:50

(19+ a door) x200 people is the issue

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 22:15:17

Well, locks are currently expensive, though, right?

The suggestion here is to make locks cheap and easy.

But what's your min time to make a 3x3 adobe house with a wooden door, from scratch? And then a lock to go with it? I'm thinking that it's at least 30 minutes, even for a skilled player.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-04-04 22:37:37

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, locks are currently expensive, though, right?
The suggestion here is to make locks cheap and easy.

But what's your min time to make a 3x3 adobe house with a wooden door, from scratch? And then a lock to go with it? I'm thinking that it's at least 30 minutes, even for a skilled player.

If we have shovel 15 mins or less. If not then probably 30 yeah.

*edit

Of course there are always variables, but not as difficult as hauling rocks forsure.

* second edit

Didn't see the lock going with it. If there are steel tools a 3x3 can be built and locked in 30 mins yes

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-04-04 23:42:09)

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-04-04 22:51:35

ryanb wrote:

I like this idea more than the magic hat. I also prefer not requiring an elder for anything. This still feels like magic though.
I would prefer it if property rights were more of a communication point instead of an absolute “you cannot do this” gameplay restriction. What if a fence just has a sign that is automatically read when you cross it? “Jack’s House, do not enter without permission” would get the point across. Players can still violate the area but that is obviously griefing and could be delt with by the community.
Communication gives an idea of what area you are entering and what can be done there. You can make a pie shop and communicate how much they cost, or a nursery saying only women and children are allowed, or a blacksmith area saying “workers only”.
Every one of these areas would have valid exceptions for entering, but that is up to the players of that area and not restricted by the game with magic words.

I really like ryanb's suggestion here. Having the fence communicate seems like a great idea. Here are some example messages "Bakery - no babies, geese, or pork allowed." "Nursery - clothing, firewood and food welcome. No Knives." "Property of Celeste Cane and her heirs - no entrance without permission." It even has a built in preference for Elders - since they'd be able to leave longer messages, just like they can write longer notes.

What message the fence says could be controlled by the heir to the fence.

In my mind this solves one of the big issues of the gate and fence system - even the property owner can only go through the gate! That would be a huge drawback to me. Anything that blocks paths is bad.

It would also leave property enforcement up to the players, rather than having it enforced by a "magic" game mechanic. How towns enforce property ownership would become another way that we can add variation.

Maybe the voice controlled force field gates can show up later on in the tech tree?

The_Anabaptist · 2019-04-04 22:54:42

Furthermore...

So a bunch of griefers could put an apocalypse totem inside a fence and short of killing them all we couldn't stop it?

Or I could make a small fenced off area with a couple exits, knife somebody, retreat to the safe zone until the killer penalty times out, rinse and repeat?

The_Anabaptist

Booklat1 · 2019-04-04 22:54:59

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, locks are currently expensive, though, right?
The suggestion here is to make locks cheap and easy.

But what's your min time to make a 3x3 adobe house with a wooden door, from scratch? And then a lock to go with it? I'm thinking that it's at least 30 minutes, even for a skilled player.

Locks are expensive-ish. Early game its not cheap but families are also smaller so sharing is probably ok.

If i steal wheat i can make a fast structure but i'd rather use a chest. But why would I if bags are mobile and cheaper?

Greep · 2019-04-04 23:01:31

On further thinking, I think a small elder-approved locker sounds like a much more ideal situation. This is more than enough for an individual, and if a sub-family wants a large area, that sounds like they should put in the effort for a full on house. You'd still be able to gift your locker to people, and if your family has enough lockers together, that'd be a cue to get building. Maybe elder approved doors works for this better.

The only real thing I can think of that lockers doesn't solve is if someone makes a really big thing like a diesel engine or someone like Tarr brings in massed raw resources. Which is a big fault I guess. So maybe not a perfect idea. *shrug*

Last edited by Greep (2019-04-04 23:07:50)

antking:]# · 2019-04-04 23:09:12

I think what this idea would be better if their was "public property" an elder can declare that to gate allowing any one to open and close it! for pens or farms.... but public property can be given or taken by an elder vote three elders must agree in the trans action of public to privet or privet to public...

ryanb · 2019-04-04 23:11:50

Thaulos wrote:

@Jason, it is quite strange for me to see someone who wants in-game drama, conflict and player "driven stories" to then design a system that does not allow players to do actions like: break in a house to steal food; chase a killer to their hideout and kill him; or breaking someone out of prison.
Wasn't one of your initial scenarios a mother with a baby that wants to steal a car from a town? How does this system help with that?
How does this system insensitive wars of any kind?
How can conflicts be resolved if people just tuck in behind their magic fences?
This elder driven magic fences feature serves no solution to any of the scenarios you presented as being evidence of something missing ingame.

I agree with Thaulos here. Jason, do you have a response for this?

I spoke in another thread about personal property being necessary for trade, but I'd like to see a more realistic approach to personal property instead of a magic in-game force field.

Jk Howling · 2019-04-04 23:13:23

I think the idea is better than the crazy ones that were being spitballed before, but it still brings up the question of.. Why?

Why would I make a property? What items would I put inside this property? What reason would I ever have to make these items my property, and hoard them in my own space, rather than give the entire village rights to it?

You've solved the issue of means, but you've yet to touch upon motive. If we're to have private properties, we need reason for such. Currently, there really is no reason whatsoever that I should have a private plot of land. The only reason that comes to mind is, like others have mentioned, housing weapons- and griefing.

If you're determined to have personal ownership become a thing, you need to also give us a reason for it. Right now our own reason would be literal griefing- withholding these items from everyone else, for no reason other than to disrupt and harm them. Hoarding food so nobody else can eat. Hoarding iron so nobody else can make tools. Hoarding tools so nobody else can grow food. Me, as an individual, has 0 need for any of these personally.

In fact, myself as an individual is unimportant in the grand scheme. That's the entire premise, isn't it? We are a small part of a greater whole? We must cooperate with anonymous strangers to build a future for our family?

It's not a single-player game, but this addition is a single-player concept.

Edit: Fixing a phrase and some formatting

Last edited by Jk Howling (2019-04-04 23:16:23)

Guppy · 2019-04-04 23:14:48

What stops people from just building THEIR private property around MY plot, basically just trapping me in?

Maybe there should always be a way to leave those areas, just not enter?

DestinyCall · 2019-04-04 23:39:39

jasonrohrer wrote:

Will make fences extremely cheap for now, just to test the idea and see where it goes without limits. Cheap to place proposed fences, and cheap to clean up (bundle of twigs puts down fences, and just as easily picks them back up).
Haven't figured out the animal thing. I don't think these are just free pens. Probably animals cross these property fences. They are low fences. They don't stop arrows either.
Babies can be carried across. They only stop humans from walking.
Person can own unlimited gates. Each approved by an elder, of course. I can't imagine it straining the server. We only check ownership when someone tries to walk across a gate. Then we ask, "Who owns it, and who else has permission to pass?"
And yes on elder property stone being temporary. I imagine it's flint to make an elder stone, and flint to turn it back to a regular stone. Easy on, easy off.

I hear you on the three minute window for any elder to disapprove. I still worry about the lucky old/young griefing pair, when no other elders are around to stop them. That's why it could probably, safely be ANYONE who gets 3 minutes to stop the fence from becoming permanent. True village consensus. Fences are a big enough deal that we want to make sure no one is mad about this fence.
In a lone duo situation, they could really go buck wild building crazy fences everywhere, but who are they hurting?

I have a suggestion. If this fence is so small and weak it can't be used to contain animals, then it isn't really big enough or strong enough to keep out (or trap inside) a determined adult, right?

So why not remove the physical barrier aspect entirely and add a psychological one? If you cross-over into a fenced area without the owner's blessing ... you get cursed. Limited to one curse per intruder, so a single trespass won't do much, but repeatedly ignoring fences will add up eventually. This would serve as a strong deterant for most players, discouraging them from violating someone else's private property rights without allowing griefers to trap people behind knee high fences for the lols. It also allows you to steal stuff, if you want it badly enough or hunt down and kill someone in their yard. To be really safe, you still have to make a locked house.

Elders should also be able to revoke property rights in some way, in case a fence is in the wrong place or a gate needs to be moved. Perhaps removing property right would take two elders working together? I'm not that worried about elderly griefer twins revoking property rights from honest townspeople. Most griefer twins reveal themselves long before 50 and revoking property rights would do less damage than allowing bad fences to stick around for hours. And it lets the village regain access to property if the owner is absent or falls out of favor with the town (exile) without being forced to kill them or waiting for them to die of old age.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-04-05 00:08:34)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-05 00:10:06

DestinyCall wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Will make fences extremely cheap for now, just to test the idea and see where it goes without limits. Cheap to place proposed fences, and cheap to clean up (bundle of twigs puts down fences, and just as easily picks them back up).
Haven't figured out the animal thing. I don't think these are just free pens. Probably animals cross these property fences. They are low fences. They don't stop arrows either.
Babies can be carried across. They only stop humans from walking.
Person can own unlimited gates. Each approved by an elder, of course. I can't imagine it straining the server. We only check ownership when someone tries to walk across a gate. Then we ask, "Who owns it, and who else has permission to pass?"
And yes on elder property stone being temporary. I imagine it's flint to make an elder stone, and flint to turn it back to a regular stone. Easy on, easy off.

I hear you on the three minute window for any elder to disapprove. I still worry about the lucky old/young griefing pair, when no other elders are around to stop them. That's why it could probably, safely be ANYONE who gets 3 minutes to stop the fence from becoming permanent. True village consensus. Fences are a big enough deal that we want to make sure no one is mad about this fence.
In a lone duo situation, they could really go buck wild building crazy fences everywhere, but who are they hurting?
I have a suggestion. If this fence is so small and weak it can't be used to contain animals, then it isn't really big enough or strong enough to keep out (or trap inside) a determined adult, right?
So why not remove the physical barrier aspect entirely and add a psychological one? If you cross-over into a fenced area without the owner's blessing ... you get cursed. Limited to one curse per intruder, so a single trespass won't do much, but repeatedly ignoring fences will add up eventually. This would serve as a strong deterant for most players, discouraging them from violating someone else's private property rights without allowing griefers to trap people behind knee high fences for the lols. It also allows you to steal stuff, if you want it badly enough or hunt down and kill someone in their yard. To be really safe, you still have to make a locked house.
Elders should also be able to revoke property rights in some way, in case a fence is in the wrong place or a gate needs to be moved. Perhaps removing property right would take two elders working together? I'm not that worried about elderly griefer twins revoking property rights from honest townspeople. Most griefer twins reveal themselves long before 50 and revoking property rights would do less damage than allowing bad fences to stick around for hours. And it lets the village regain access to property if the owner is absent or falls out of favor with the town (exile) without being forced to kill them or waiting for them to die of old age.

stiil dont like it but its better like this

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