The Midnight Plan

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 00:17:21

Booklat1 wrote:

stiil dont like it but its better like this

Curses are magic. These fences are magic. Might as well consolidate.

Starknight_One · 2019-04-05 01:00:17

DestinyCall wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Will make fences extremely cheap for now, just to test the idea and see where it goes without limits. Cheap to place proposed fences, and cheap to clean up (bundle of twigs puts down fences, and just as easily picks them back up).
Haven't figured out the animal thing. I don't think these are just free pens. Probably animals cross these property fences. They are low fences. They don't stop arrows either.
Babies can be carried across. They only stop humans from walking.
Person can own unlimited gates. Each approved by an elder, of course. I can't imagine it straining the server. We only check ownership when someone tries to walk across a gate. Then we ask, "Who owns it, and who else has permission to pass?"
And yes on elder property stone being temporary. I imagine it's flint to make an elder stone, and flint to turn it back to a regular stone. Easy on, easy off.

I hear you on the three minute window for any elder to disapprove. I still worry about the lucky old/young griefing pair, when no other elders are around to stop them. That's why it could probably, safely be ANYONE who gets 3 minutes to stop the fence from becoming permanent. True village consensus. Fences are a big enough deal that we want to make sure no one is mad about this fence.
In a lone duo situation, they could really go buck wild building crazy fences everywhere, but who are they hurting?
I have a suggestion. If this fence is so small and weak it can't be used to contain animals, then it isn't really big enough or strong enough to keep out (or trap inside) a determined adult, right?

Heh. If it can't keep a sheep in, it can't keep a determined *child* out, much less an adult.

So why not remove the physical barrier aspect entirely and add a psychological one? If you cross-over into a fenced area without the owner's blessing ... you get cursed. Limited to one curse per intruder, so a single trespass won't do much, but repeatedly ignoring fences will add up eventually. This would serve as a strong deterant for most players, discouraging them from violating someone else's private property rights without allowing griefers to trap people behind knee high fences for the lols. It also allows you to steal stuff, if you want it badly enough or hunt down and kill someone in their yard. To be really safe, you still have to make a locked house.

Hmm. So you lay out your fence, say "I claim this land", and the timer begins. If no-one contests your claim in the time allotted (3-30 minutes depending upon how many other humans are near you when you make the claim) your curse token is expended and the fence is now ready to lay a curse upon anyone whom you do not authorize to cross it - but only the first time they do so. Otherwise, the fence only presents a visible boundary - babies might not be able to cross it, but anyone else can.

Just adding a bit of spin. To help avoid the problem of 'What if someone builds around me?', make it take your curse token - so not everyone will have one available at the same time. Some people won't have them at all, since they toss curses around like they are candy.

EDIT to add: If you don't have a curse token, the fence still remains. You can repeat the 'claim' later if you get your curse token in this life. Also, it occurs to me that you can just forbid claiming a space that contains claimed land, and maybe make a minimum distance between claims... two to three tiles should be sufficient.

Also, the 'one curse per person' thing strikes me as unrealistic. AFAIK, the game has no way to know who or what placed a curse on someone. And adding that metadata could be problematic, if it results in ballooning data transfers. I think we'd have to be satisfied with a fence that could curse the first person that crossed over; you've basically put your curse on auto-trigger against an intruder.

Elders should also be able to revoke property rights in some way, in case a fence is in the wrong place or a gate needs to be moved. Perhaps removing property right would take two elders working together? I'm not that worried about elderly griefer twins revoking property rights from honest townspeople. Most griefer twins reveal themselves long before 50 and revoking property rights would do less damage than allowing bad fences to stick around for hours. And it lets the village regain access to property if the owner is absent or falls out of favor with the town (exile) without being forced to kill them or waiting for them to die of old age.

I think two would be sufficient. If there aren't two elders in the village, they'll just have to live with it for a bit until they do.

Last edited by Starknight_One (2019-04-05 01:12:19)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 01:06:20

Oooh I like the idea that claiming property costs you the use of your token. This would also restrict someone from claiming many different areas. You can pass on land to your kids, so well-maintained lands would grow over time and some families or groups would have control over more private land, but a single individual would be limited and need to choose wisely before staking a claim.

I think it would be great if after someone has trespassed, the fence is visibly changed and "broken". In this state, people can enter and leave freely without being cursed. After 30 minutes (or something), the fence will be restored to its unbroken state and the next person to trespass will recieve a curse.

The visible change would also help act as an in-game cue for new players to learn to avoid tresspassing by accident. It will be clear that something is wrong because the fence broke when they stepped on it.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-04-05 01:16:16)

Redram · 2019-04-05 01:32:30

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, is there no way to revoke a key from someone?

The idea was intended to work within what I'd previously thought was the 'logical except in extreme cases' standards I thought were in play (but am now discovering were more...guidelines...). So no, no way to 'revoke' a key any more than you can in real life. You change the lock, or kill the person who you apparently foolishly gave the key to. If you're not sure about someone just open the door and let them in, then close it. Don't give them a key.

But I guess if 'quite a bit' harder is too much, that's your judgement obviously. But I'd just point out that if you just make locks work better and let walls be as they've been, then you save the 'quite a bit' of work for the not-fences that don't keep animals in. So then it's 'quite a bit' of work either way.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The problem with leveraging locks for this purpose, separate from the implementation issues, is that locks are useless without walls, and walls are still expensive.

I don't see the wall expense as a problem. Earlier you responded to the problem of no available elders with 'if it's that important, wait for some elders'. Well, if your stuff is that important, then spend some time and make a proper building. Add wooden walls to the game as a cheaper version of stone walls that never become ancient. Butt logs are more transportable than stone, and more renewable than clay. These tools should be available in second generation, third at worst. I still don't see what you think people need to lock up in the first two generations.

Also I would point out that even if the not-fences don't block animals, they're still objects ya? So from one unlimited bundle of sticks I could blanket an area 5 deep(?) to keep the animals in, and it'd be the easiest way to do that yet, even easier than milkweed seeds. Whether or not that'd be worth would depend on exactly how quick you can lay each bundle down though. If it takes elder approval probably not worth it.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-05 01:33:29)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 02:06:56

Why, JK?

Keep in mind that limited access property is not necessarily personal property. You can add/remove people to your list at any time. You can leave the gate open at any time, too.

So I can imagine dozens of uses for this atom. A city gate. A weapons cache. A parking garage. An airplane hangar. A milkweed farm tended by three people where the rope is earmarked for a particular village purpose. A compost area, complete with sheep, carrots, and berries, and all necessary tools. No leeches can "forget" to save the berries for compost.

In general, you'd lock up anything you don't want griefers getting into and taking/ruining/hiding. You'd grant access to whoever gained your trust.

Similar to how you keep a knife in your backpack and only lend it to someone you trust. Except extended to absolutely everything. Anything you can imagine wanting to be accessed only by trusted people. You'd use it for that.

Hypothetically: Let's roll back to a pre-DonkeyTown world. Let's roll back to a world where the villages are close together. Say your village has a good griefer and cursed-baby policy, but the other village does not. Are you really going to build a car and just leave it parked out in the open, given that the neighboring village is a griefer farm? Say you have a good food and compost policy. Are you really going to open your berry bushes up to the starving masses from the next village, once their food stores run out due to neglect?

Currently, if villages were close together, you'd really have no good way of protecting yourself. Well, short of armed guards in your village shooting people.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 02:11:19

ryanb wrote:

Thaulos wrote:
@Jason, it is quite strange for me to see someone who wants in-game drama, conflict and player "driven stories" to then design a system that does not allow players to do actions like: break in a house to steal food; chase a killer to their hideout and kill him; or breaking someone out of prison.
Wasn't one of your initial scenarios a mother with a baby that wants to steal a car from a town? How does this system help with that?
How does this system insensitive wars of any kind?
How can conflicts be resolved if people just tuck in behind their magic fences?
This elder driven magic fences feature serves no solution to any of the scenarios you presented as being evidence of something missing ingame.
I agree with Thaulos here. Jason, do you have a response for this?
I spoke in another thread about personal property being necessary for trade, but I'd like to see a more realistic approach to personal property instead of a magic in-game force field.

My answer is that there are a bunch of different issues afoot here. Some of them are related, and some of them are not. I still haven't figured out how to make you care enough for your family to risk your life on a crazy mission like that. And yes, limited-access property would likely prevent that specific story from occurring. Though maybe not. They might open the gate for traders, and you could sneak in then...

But there are loads of crazy, interesting stories that emerge from limited-access property.

Trade itself is an interesting story.

But yeah, "limited access property" doesn't specifically address the "care more about your family" problem.

Tarr · 2019-04-05 02:15:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

Hypothetically: Let's roll back to a pre-DonkeyTown world. Let's roll back to a world where the villages are close together. Say your village has a good griefer and cursed-baby policy, but the other village does not. Are you really going to build a car and just leave it parked out in the open, given that the neighboring village is a griefer farm? Say you have a good food and compost policy. Are you really going to open your berry bushes up to the starving masses from the next village, once their food stores run out due to neglect?

We don't keep planes/cars in buildings ever. We hide them in the wilderness away from town to prevent anyone from even having the chance to mess with them because of the property issue. Even with this new plan idea I wouldn't recommend anyone in the car/plane community from moving planes into these new areas because it's just a ticking time bomb until someone murders someone/leaves the gate open and the plane is lost like normal.

Instead we take screenshots with coordinates given in relation to the item so it can be found at a later time without risk of being lost. A person making a plane hangar in town is someone who isn't going to have a plane very long.

And of course you should feed the people of the other village. By denying them food we lose a possible town to play in and only hurt our potential future lives by having to clean up an even bigger mess when we get spawned to their village. I only screw my future self by selfishly denying the other village even if they're not the brightest crayons.

Greep · 2019-04-05 02:55:10

Well, this would be for mass personal property, I would imagine with something extremely expensive you'd use a standard lock outside of town. That's not even unrealistic, rich people don't live in the ghetto for similar reasons.

Speaking of property, I don't think there's going to be any mass property unless there's a way of really distinguishing your kids from someone else's. Are we going to always have the Eve be the only one able name your descendants? I would imagine there should be some resource intensive way of giving yourself a new last name. Like if you have a crown, you can give yourself a new name exactly once and it becomes a used crown. Possibly something more common than gold. Can't be just being an elder, since you're infertile by then.

Otherwise, it's really hard to say "this mansion is mine, and I made this for my line in this town". What even is your line? Nobody will know a few generations down the road, I guarantee it, word of mouth just isn't strong enough nor is there a way to really do this on paper.

Last edited by Greep (2019-04-05 03:05:33)

Tarr · 2019-04-05 03:11:27

My point is how many of his building ideas are even logical? We don't need to lock knives up now that we can dismantle them on command where as before it made sense to lock up all the spam made knives. Making a private berry farm is just going to lead to even more berry bushes being planted and I'm sure all the players here love seeing two massive berry farms instead of one. Private milkweed farm? Just go into the wilderness and hang with the naturally spawning soil pits. Each one is 15 rows and that's before even shoveling the thing. The car garage/plane hangar I've already went over and locking up the compost supplies everyone needs to work is just adding a bunch of wrenches in the wheels for no real upside.

It doesn't make sense to me on any level why you would put any of these things inside let alone lock them besides trying to make everyone in the villages jobs harder. If it had made any sense at any point to do any of these things the community would have done it in the first place or come to the conclusion by now.

Greep · 2019-04-05 03:30:30

It's true, I agree it doesn't make much sense when the game is as hardcore as it is. Kinda hard to have drama when people are just doing busy work all the time. This would make much more sense in a system where there weren't so many towns and cities generally were more established and people could afford to have their own agendas.

But perhaps we're getting ahead of ourselves. I'd be interested to see how this plays out in any case.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 04:15:17

Does anyone else want their privacy fence to be crafted from bone piles with a pair of human skulls on the gate to ward off intruders?

No?

Oh ... okay. Just me, I guess.

Starknight_One · 2019-04-05 11:16:47

DestinyCall wrote:

Does anyone else want their privacy fence to be crafted from bone piles with a pair of human skulls on the gate to ward off intruders?
No?
Oh ... okay. Just me, I guess.

... huh. How did I never know I wanted this in my life until just now?

st2019 · 2019-04-05 12:07:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

After fixing the family tree browser late last night, I still had to do the dishes (family already asleep). After doing the dishes, it was after 1am. This is very bad. Bad Jason! I know better. But there I am.
I'm sure that some of you around here have noticed something of a manic cycle that I go through, where the ideas just flow like a hydrant, and I'm kinda all over the place for a while. "Jason, what are you doing man? Changing the game drastically again?!" And then that phase ends, and I go back to head-down work again.
So last night, at about 1:20am, before going to bed, I had to pull out some sheets of paper and scribble down one last idea.

I had a similar idea, written in bad english. Maybe you just read it? (It was a very similar thing, but a key and a door instead of fence and stone)

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 962#p51962

I like your idea!!!

futurebird · 2019-04-05 12:26:54

I like the idea of getting cursed for entering gated spaces that are not yours. It's kinda realistic I mean you could go in to all kinds of spaces in real life and take things be terrible but you don't because of social pressure more than the locks. Think of all the small towns where people leave their doors unlocked. Or here in NYC in apartments with doormen the same thing happen door are often open but trespass is rare because the doorman is watching. Will the doorman stop you physically? probably not. But, it will have consequences.

And it makes for some nice choices. Your child is going to die, there are pads in that house, do you run in and grab em?

JonySky · 2019-04-05 12:27:49

Please, Jason! add a circle of options / Ring menu ... so that players who do not speak English can play fluently!
assigning permissions with the current system of / commands is a great disadvantage for players who do not write in English natively
I am not using the new facial expressions because I must write each of my expressions and it is very slow and tedious to write so many / commands

23283_05_new_battlefield_3_patch_hits_today_includes_tweaks_updated_commo_rose_and_more.jpg

Last edited by JonySky (2019-04-05 12:29:25)

Katears · 2019-04-05 12:43:03

JonySky wrote:

Please, Jason! add a circle of options / Ring menu ... so that players who do not speak English can play fluently!
assigning permissions with the current system of / commands is a great disadvantage for players who do not write in English natively
I am not using the new facial expressions because I must write each of my expressions and it is very slow and tedious to write so many / commands

An autocomplete for the commands would be handy.
When you start writing you could scroll through the different options.

JonySky · 2019-04-05 12:57:25

Katears wrote:

JonySky wrote:
Please, Jason! add a circle of options / Ring menu ... so that players who do not speak English can play fluently!
assigning permissions with the current system of / commands is a great disadvantage for players who do not write in English natively
I am not using the new facial expressions because I must write each of my expressions and it is very slow and tedious to write so many / commands
An autocomplete for the commands would be handy.
When you start writing you could scroll through the different options.

All help is good ... but if we add the rights / permissions of the doors I think it is better another more practical system than writing a / command
if we spend 30 seconds writing a command, it means 6 months in game time ... this to show an expression

futurebird · 2019-04-05 13:12:10

What if you hold shift while mousing over a person and it writes their name? My issue is I misspell names. “Curse Dartmouth VonCurrie” uh oh he saw that “Curse Darthmont Von Curry” oh boy he’s gonna stab me “Curse Datmonxth Van-“ dies

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 13:33:41

futurebird wrote:

I like the idea of getting cursed for entering gated spaces that are not yours. It's kinda realistic I mean you could go in to all kinds of spaces in real life and take things be terrible but you don't because of social pressure more than the locks. Think of all the small towns where people leave their doors unlocked. Or here in NYC in apartments with doormen the same thing happen door are often open but trespass is rare because the doorman is watching. Will the doorman stop you physically? probably not. But, it will have consequences.
And it makes for some nice choices. Your child is going to die, there are pads in that house, do you run in and grab em?

Exactly. I live on a farm and we use electric fences to contain animals and deter predators. The electric shock is unpleasant but not life-threatening. If the animal wants to cross badly enough, it can and it will. The fence works by creating a psychological barrier - the animal does not like the shock and it does not want to be shocked again, so it avoids the fence voluntarily. But if the pasture is barren and there is fresh grass on the other side of fence ... it might be worth the pain to push through that fence to eat. It can also depend on the individual animal - some are more likely to test a fence than others. And there is a period of training when an animal who has never encountered an electric fence before must learn what they mean and that the fence should be avoided. But most of the time, an electric fence works just as well as an actual physical barrier. And in many applications, it is the cheapest and easiest solution for fencing in large areas, since it requires significantly less labor to install, less maintenance, and works just as well as a solid fence-line.

I think this kind of privacy fence actually gets much closer to what Jason is looking for, but it might require more work to implement, server-side. Most people understand that getting cursed is bad and they don't want it to happen to them. Even people who routinely grief do not want to raise their curse score faster than necessary or get their lifetime curse score too high without a good reason. It would create a sense of ownership and social pressure to respect other people's claims to space/property, but also give the ability to violate that "safe space" if the need is great enough to override the consequences of breaking in. It would also make these fences more like "yards". You would still have a reason to build a house for added security. It might take a few generations to get a house built on the land that your grandfather or great-grandfather claimed, but now you would have a reason to care about that house and see it as "yours". And stuff kept inside a locked chest, inside a locked house, inside a gated privacy fence would be significantly more secure than stuff laying on the ground in someone's front yard. As towns grew more advanced, so would the security measures and level of individual ownership. This also gives you a place to store traditional keys and a way to pass those keys on to the right people more securely.

Fences make for better neighbors, but a locked door deters thieves.

Villas · 2019-04-05 13:53:06

Redram wrote:

without the magical elder stone.

I don’t think it is magical, it’s a tool that allows elders to approve projects. It’s not generating resources out of nowhere, someone had to construct the whole project and put the resources there, the stone only approve the project or not. In my opinion it’s one of the best ways to make it and prevent griefing at the same time.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 14:19:00

JonySky, I hear you about it being slow to type commands and stuff for non-native speakers.

You do know about "UP ARROW" to scroll through past commands, right?

So you could type each emote one time, and then UP ARROW to go back and repeat some of the emotes.

The idea with gate ownership would be a spoken phrase, not a / command. Part of the idea is that everyone around you "hears" you make the declaration.

I'll think about the problem of typing long names...

What about if you type only a first name, it will work for gate ownership, as long as the person is close enough to you (so there's no confusion).

Thaulos · 2019-04-05 14:36:18

This might be a tangent but on the subject of names, we have some huge names available in-game.

Cursing, giving or removing access to OLUWADUNMININU SHUFFLEBARGER might be a bit of a pain without commands. Perhaps both curses and "ownership" could both also have a sort of a command counterpart which would cause the character to say "curse OLUWADUNMININU SHUFFLEBARGER".

And add in a curse age limit like 16 or 20 to avoid baby griefing.

Or perhaps trim some of the larger names currently allowed.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-05 15:16:05)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 14:59:59

Thaulos wrote:

And add in a curse age limit like 16 or 20 to avoid baby griefing.

If there is an age limit, it should be very low - like three or four years old. If you can pick up items, you should be able to curse bad people. This would prevent abandoned babies from cursing their moms before the die, but not restrict people who witness a crime while too you to warn others. Curse tokens are limited, so irresponsible cursing is already sufficiently restricted imo.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 15:01:50

Well, that's an amazing name there....

SHUFFLEBARGER has actually been used as a last name 328 times on bigserver2, but it looks like it was all in one family line:

http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=3806945

futurebird · 2019-04-05 15:15:33

I have an answer to the question about fences limiting in game conflict and yet Jason wanting conflict: correct me if I’m wrong but we want *better* more memorable conflicts and greater social and technological complexities. “ha ha I stabbed u” is boring “HA! I stabbed you since you’re choice to move the bakery that lead to the death of my only girl” is more interesting. I didn’t like this idea at first because I thought it was trying to destroy the sort of feel good hippie sharing aspect of the game just for the sake of making drama. Now I see it more as giving us the control we need to make tech advancement. One reason I don’t make cars is someone would just take it and I’m not interested in focusing on being worried about people grabbing thing out from under me. But that limits what I choose to do.

I also feel more open to the idea knowing in many cases these locks will be open to the whole village and having different levels. I do wonder about going on a horse and locking down every iron mine for your town only ... but given the size of maps that seems more interesting than destructive. we already know not to search for resources in the direction of a big city and that’s how it works in the real world as well. I’m happy as long as the option to work for a greater good is there. We can work for the greater good of the town.

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