Simplified property fence plan

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 15:23:38

jasonrohrer wrote:

To answer the concerns here:
The biggest thing you are missing about this is you can only add people, and never remove them after that, until they die. I'm sure you can imagine all kinds of little problems with that. If you can, you're on the right track.

My friend Casey reminded me that as a programmer, I'm too prone to coming up with the "perfect" system that solves all player problems. In the other thread, you may remember that I had a whole "owners and sub-owners and revoking" system in mind. You can add Toby, and then Toby adds Mary, your enemy. And then you're like WTF, so you remove Toby, and it removes anyone he added, including Mary. The original version also had "force field" type gates that you can just walk through if you're on the list.
But "perfect" systems like this aren't actually that interesting, because they don't have little weird wrinkles or holes. Holes are more interesting. Think of the moment when you open your door and peek out in Rust. That's a very tense, interesting moment. Your door is open. You have to open it to go out. But during the moment it's open, anything can happen. Doors "suck" in this way in Rust. They could be easily programmed in a way that solves this problem. But doing so would make the game less interesting.
I'm not designing a website access protocol here. I'm designing a game.

So, the above "simple" fence system has a bunch of little holes in it, on purpose. Gates need to be opened and closed by an owner. While open, anyone can walk through. Maybe owners will leave them open most of the time, until there's a problem. Do you trust an owner enough to walk through that open gate? They can close it behind you, trapping you in. If the owner left the gate open, and walked away, you can go in there and steal stuff...
And the "owner list", with only a permanent "add owner" feature, also has holes in it, on purpose. You can't remove anyone. No one is on the list at first, not even your baby. Of course, you can open the gate for anyone manually, and generally leave it open, so it's not such a big deal. But maybe this becomes a big enough pain, for a regular work partner, that you feel like you trust them enough to add them. Do you REALLY trust them, though? This gate was passed to you by your grandmother.... That's a really interesting, juicy question. They can add people after that. Maybe you make them promise not to.
There's only one way to remove someone from a gate...

Likewise, with fences needing to be repaired every hour. You can build a long fence, and keep it going for generations, but the longer it is, the more of a pain it is, and the more likely you are to "miss a spot" that needs fixing, and end up with a hole in your fence that people can sneak through. Especially if there's a fence around the whole village.

Honestly, all of this just sounds like a huge pain in the ass.

I've lived in many villages with poorly designed public buildings that block movement between adjacent work areas or create a weird village layout. Adding in a bunch of access locks and even more walls that occupy precious tiles in the middle of town is going to be a big headache for people are interested in keeping villages functional. Some people will learn the systems and use them to increase efficiency and streamline workflow. Most people will not. It's not even a question of griefing. It is an issue of spatial problem-solving and long-term planning. A lot of people suck at both.

On the upside, key-less locks will make locked doors more functional. On the downside, closed doors are still too clunky. Cheaper sheep pens are good. Fenced villages are bad. It is possible that this change will encourage private property ownership. It is probable that it will spawn new kinds of griefing and weird shinanigans.

We'll see how it works out. I'm not that optimistic.

Turnipseed · 2019-04-05 15:35:24

Wait will these work as sheep pens?

Tarr · 2019-04-05 15:49:08

DestinyCall wrote:

On the upside, key-less locks will make locked doors more functional. On the downside, closed doors are still too clunky. Cheaper sheep pens are good. Fenced villages are bad. It is possible that this change will encourage private property ownership. It is probable that it will spawn new kinds of griefing and weird shinanigans.
We'll see how it works out. I'm not that optimistic.

Pretty much this.

Turnipseed wrote:

Wait will these work as sheep pens?

Yeah as long as you either do maintenance by touching fences or keep passing on your gates as an adult.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-04-05 15:49:51)

Redram · 2019-04-05 16:08:57

jasonrohrer wrote:

There's only one way to remove someone from a gate...

So lesson is don't give out permission to a gate without also owning a weapon. Are these gates removable by the owner(s) at all after 'hardening'? Or is it possible that I come back from an iron scouting expedition and find that my co-owner has hatcheted down the gate and installed a new one, and I'm not a co-owner now? I mean obviously it'd have to be a 30+ minute expedition probably. But still. I guess I need to install a different gate for every other co-owner, plus one that is always just me. Of course if I forget to give full permission to all to one of my decedants, now they've got uncontrolled holes in the fence. And will have to replace those gates when the owner(s) finally die. No this doesn't sound like a logistical nightmare at all.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Mousing over a gate shows you the name of the closest owner to you at that moment.

Glad you saw the value in that detail

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-05 16:13:17)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-05 16:14:37

As usual, I agree with destiny

if building is hard why dont we just get better tools for it? Mallet for road making, construction hammer for walls, paint brushes for extra uses, animal pulled carts to carry big stones?

This idea is being pushed harder than thr apocalypse tbh

Redram · 2019-04-05 16:18:42

@ Booklat Don't you see, we need these gated properties gen1! To protect the 3 plates and bowls and the sharp stone from the other two people in town, though you are all mutually dependant on one another for survival.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-05 16:19:14)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-05 16:23:54

Redram wrote:

@ Booklat Don't you see, we need these gated properties gen1! To protect the 3 plates and bowls and the sharp stone from the other two people in town, though you are all mutually dependant on one another for survival.

Yeah, its also A LOT of fun to get OP sheeps early, sheep era is always such a new refreshing experience, not stale at all at this point

Guppy · 2019-04-05 16:25:11

jasonrohrer wrote:

Your door is open. You have to open it to go out. But during the moment it's open, anything can happen. Doors "suck" in this way in Rust. They could be easily programmed in a way that solves this problem.

As an occupational doorcamper in Rust, this really touched my heart

Redram · 2019-04-05 16:28:16

Booklat1 wrote:

Yeah, its also A LOT of fun to get OP sheeps early, sheep era is always such a new refreshing experience, not stale at all at this point

I know right? Nothing like obliterating what once was an important milestone in town development (but will now be a trivail thing) in favor of a solution looking for a problem. You don't even have to waste water taking down the old pen now! It just falls down at your touch, or on it's own even!

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-05 16:28:44)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 16:36:16

Guppy wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Your door is open. You have to open it to go out. But during the moment it's open, anything can happen. Doors "suck" in this way in Rust. They could be easily programmed in a way that solves this problem.

As an occupational doorcamper in Rust, this really touched my heart

Just what I've always wanted. A reason to add a second door to every important building! Everyone loves airlocks, right? At least this gives "spring doors" a better reason for existing.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-04-05 16:38:53)

Potjeh · 2019-04-05 17:41:33

I actually think this might lead to towns that are easier than navigate rather than harder. As long as we reach the right meta where as soon as building fences is possible somebody takes it upon himself to be the town planner. Just lay out a regular grid of fences with walking spaces inbetween, but leave the fence gateless so anyone can claim a plot for their own. Then the rest of your job is patrolling the town and knocking down fences that don't conform to the grid.

Spockulon · 2019-04-05 18:05:24

Turnipseed wrote:

Wait will these work as sheep pens?

I would build the sheep pen inside of the property fence. The property fence keeps other players out, while the regular sheep pen keeps sheep in. If a sheep were to escape the sheep pen, you would still have time to recapture them. This would probably be most effective if both entrances were staggered (not in a straight line in relation to each other, so that the animals don't have a chance to move in a straight line)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-05 18:19:19

Potjeh wrote:

I actually think this might lead to towns that are easier than navigate rather than harder. As long as we reach the right meta where as soon as building fences is possible somebody takes it upon himself to be the town planner. Just lay out a regular grid of fences with walking spaces inbetween, but leave the fence gateless so anyone can claim a plot for their own. Then the rest of your job is patrolling the town and knocking down fences that don't conform to the grid.

We will have city blocks and streets around the same time as we have appropriately sized and bordered berry patches.

But a girl can dream, can't she? I would be happy to live in an orderly town with intelligently designed commercial and residential spaces. In game or in real life.

SirCaio · 2019-04-05 19:01:25

Is it coming this week?
It sounds quite game changing, especially in late game civs

Last edited by SirCaio (2019-04-05 19:01:50)

Turnipseed · 2019-04-05 19:09:28

Probobly not

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 19:51:57

Not coming this week.

Your children aren't added automatically, so don't worry about that.

And for those who are proposing other "necessary restrictions" on where fences can be put, or what can be inside, or how big of an area.... Remember, you have 20 full minutes to notice a bad fence and knock it down. If no one who cares is trying to get through the fence for 20 full minutes, it's probably NOT surrounding something that people care about too much.

No, an owner cannot destroy the gate. It is permanent, as long as someone owning it still lives. If you don't want a gate there anymore, as an owner, just open it and leave it open forever. If you pass it on to no one, it will collapse when you die, if you are the last owner. This is how you destroy your own gate (by dying as the sole owner).

Because fences and gates are so "hard" to build, I imagine that they will be used sparingly and in very specific situations where they are needed, not all over the place.

By "hard," I don't mean hard in terms of resources or time. I mean hard in terms of convincing the people around you that this particular fence/gate is a good idea. If you try to fence in the whole town and claim ownership of it, you're probably not going to succeed.

I imagine that this is actually how "homesteading" would work if 30 people were dropped together on a desert island. Once someone has laid claim to a place for long enough, and continued to actively use the place, then it eventually "solidifies" and becomes theirs. The longer it goes with no dispute about ownership, the more "real" the ownership becomes.

And in fact, in the US, many states allow for "adverse possession" of abandoned property. If you squat in an empty house in California for 5 years, and you pay the taxes for 5 years, and the owner of the house doesn't protest, then the house becomes yours (you go to the court and provide proof that you've done all this for five years, and they transfer the title, and there's nothing the owner can do to get the house back after that).

Here's an excellent video about the just acquisition of property:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s

This makes me realize that the one thing missing from my simple plan is a way to transfer ownership without retaining it yourself. I guess every owner needs to have a way to remove themselves only. "I no longer own this" or something like that. Otherwise, gates can't be sold to other people.

And that would be the way that an owner can destroy a gate in their lifetime. Only if they are the last owner, they say, "I no longer own this," and the gate collapses. I'll update the post above to reflect this.

As for easy sheep pens, or the village progression meta, or whatever, isn't everyone using oven bases for sheep pens anyway? You're not waiting for steel to pen the sheep, but steel is needed to benefit from sheep in any way (knife to kill, shears to harvest wool, shovel for compost).

ryanb · 2019-04-05 20:37:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

As for easy sheep pens, or the village progression meta, or whatever, isn't everyone using oven bases for sheep pens anyway? You're not waiting for steel to pen the sheep, but steel is needed to benefit from sheep in any way (knife to kill, shears to harvest wool, shovel for compost).

I don't think the property fence will be OP for sheep pens considering it takes maintenance to keep it up. If it isn't using the property aspect then the village will likely replace it with a more permanent fence to avoid the maintenance hassle.

Redram · 2019-04-05 21:05:20

jasonrohrer wrote:

isn't everyone using oven bases for sheep pens anyway

Yes, but that's a non-trivial cost. You have to go find that clay, possibly in boar-infested swamp, carry back probably single basket at a time, maybe basket and part of backpack. also find the reeds or wheat, combine, etc. It's not nothing, it takes a lot of time compared to a never-ending bundle of sticks that I presume can be gotten from any tree? Not knowing exactly how the stick bundle works, I'd guess two or three minues to set it up with endless sticks, vs maybe up to 30 minutes depending on abundance of clay and reeds. Choice seems clear to me.

And in fact it's a strategic choice because that clay could have been used for more dishes or crocks and the reeds/straw for baskets (aside from dug tule stumps). There are many competing uses for clay in the early life of the town. Not as much after this. Shepherding is an intensive enough job that it should not be particularly difficult for the shepherd to touch a fence every half hour or whatever, they basically are all over the pen all the time - I'd say it's way better to do that, use the clay for bowls and plates, use the reeds for baskets, and replace the endless stick fence with stone or branch fences later.

And right, you still need the tools. But you don't need very many, and the shears are the only sheep-only tool, and you don't technically even need shears for compost and meat - you can get by just slaughtering the sheep for that stuff. The tools are not a big deal.

ryanb wrote:

I don't think the property fence will be OP for sheep pens considering it takes maintenance to keep it up. If it isn't using the property aspect then the village will likely replace it with a more permanent fence to avoid the maintenance hassle.

Of course they will. But in the meantime they've saved a bunch of time and resources with the endless magic stick bundle.

Even just changing it from the magic infinite bundle, to having to pull each bundle of sticks from the tree and place it, get another, etc, would do something to decrease the incredible superiority of this new fence meta.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-05 21:12:05)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-05 21:11:39

Redram wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
isn't everyone using oven bases for sheep pens anyway
Yes, but that's a non-trivial cost. You have to go find that clay, possibly in boar-infested swamp, carry back probably single basket at a time, maybe basket and part of backpack. also find the reeds or wheat, combine, etc. It's not nothing, it takes a lot of time compared to a never-ending bundle of sticks that I presume can be gotten from any tree? Not knowing exactly how the stick bundle works, I'd guess two or three minues to set it up with endless sticks, vs maybe up to 30 minutes depending on abundance of clay and reeds. Choice seems clear to me.
And in fact it's a strategic choice because that clay could have been used for more dishes or crocks and the reeds/straw for baskets (aside from dug tule stumps). There are many competing uses for clay in the early life of the town. Not as much after this. Shepherding is an intensive enough job that it should not be particularly difficult for the shepherd to touch a fence every half hour or whatever, they basically are all over the pen all the time - I'd say it's way better to do that, use the clay for bowls and plates, use the reeds for baskets, and replace the endless stick fence with stone or branch fences later.
And right, you still need the tools. But you don't need very many, and the shears are the only sheep-only tool, and you don't technically even need shears for compost and meat - you can get by just slaughtering the sheep for that stuff. The tools are not a big deal.
ryanb wrote:
I don't think the property fence will be OP for sheep pens considering it takes maintenance to keep it up. If it isn't using the property aspect then the village will likely replace it with a more permanent fence to avoid the maintenance hassle.
Of course they will. But in the meantime they've saved a bunch of time and resources with the endless magic stick bundle.

Thanks. Gathering adobe may be easy but its very rng dependant.

Sheep are one of the biggest exploits in this game, there are tons of posts related to it, in fact Jason made yum after being pestered to nerf mutton pies (which he never did)

Yet we somehow think fast sheep isnt degenerate. Its like we want people to trade but then pay all their bills for life, starting when they're born.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 21:21:35

Yeah, maybe the fence bundle won't be totally zero cost. Not sure.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-05 21:42:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, maybe the fence bundle won't be totally zero cost. Not sure.

what are your thoughts on suggestions to make building faster? like special tools for wall and road stakes, and animal carts to carry rocks?

FeignedSanity · 2019-04-05 21:45:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, maybe the fence bundle won't be totally zero cost. Not sure.

I'm personally in favor of zero cost. I don't really see at as being a problem, they're already troublesome enough as is.

Amon · 2019-04-05 21:49:35

Labour put in is also a form of cost. Sometime that doesen't take a lot of resouces but is time intensive to make isn't in a good place either.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-05 22:04:59

Not sure about making buildings cheaper or easier. That seems to be orthogonal to this issue, and I'd like to leave it as a separate lever that I can pull later, instead of tying the things together.

Amon · 2019-04-05 22:23:25

Yeah. Fixing things that are interwoven is usually quite a task.

Sometimes there are just too many factors that blemis a thing, singling out one thing that seems the most likely cause might just prove to not be an issue at all.
It might be many things that work in part to make a thing so.

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