Buildings and you.

Psykout · 2019-04-15 02:40:02

Thanks for the insight Spoon. I haven't messed heavily with higher forging tech so was pulling that out of my ass a bit. Moreso i was referring to that if buildings were no longer such an investment they wouldn't need yo be so multipurpose. A room with a kiln just to make pottery wouldn't be insane at all. I hope for that, everything being so scrutinized for efficiency and the constant struggle to maintain things feels like an artificial difficulty curve.

pein · 2019-04-15 08:39:56

well i talked with yaira and gave a few tips what to test out
also he made some EW walls every corner cause my blueprint was a lazy one and he just replicated it

NS doors suck on zoom so hard to click, maybe i should make new sprites and all of them wider a bit, planned it a while ago

btw if you put 2 spaces betwene the 2 fire, you get 4 perfect tiles
OPPO
FOOF
OPPO
babies can be placed on one tile but they don't like it so if you can afford the extra 15 firewood per hour then leave 2 spaces

i generally don't have resources for such projects or don't really see benefit on doing rooms that early
i seen somedbody doing a desert room in star family, quite small but maybe turned out to be ok
actually a nursery could be a dog pen too, block the dogs inside it, only that kids could take out the small dogs and feed it there
so far the sugar pens worked well, i can make it faster than adobe ones, if needed
adobe is superior, if i can find boards to make oven and 2 boxes, and middle wall adobe so they can extend upon it as a bakery room attached to a pen
did it once and the town was revived but they made new farms south and they ran for poop like 40 tiles, and transport meat he same way
some idiot shot me at age 5 when i got back, cause i was far from center and he had a bow

for kilns i prefer newcommen 2 away from kiln, still fast firing for rods and pistons but more space to put it down
we could do some south kilns with sugar walls, i prefer more spaces as i can fire up like 12 iron simply, alone

now i need each and every plate and bowl on separate tiles for even faster smiting, and some extra free space
more kilns than two?
well i made 2 kilns very long ago, and it became meta after a while
i seen once a 5 kiln setup with M shape (rewerse W maybe better description) so you could walk between but you could also dump charcoal from top to bottom, but generally curved shafts for kindling would be needed so plant some poplar before age 29
even if just one, if it grows they can plant more, if it's north side out of biome, even more recognizable

also a separate car shop, with basic food supply
people just kill each other if they got a lot of resources and high pop, bring 5-6 iron home and rest dump on the outpost
smart people can find an outpost 200 tile away, let the general public take the main area and hard workers can go to smith in the open with no distraction
if it's more than 200 tiles than added benefit of no area ban

people nowadays don't even smith, or if they do just do multiple tools, and use up all iron into steel so no newcommens get made
if you unluck ywith the oil rig, and need more pipes, they might combine everything together then you need even more iron

Tarr · 2019-04-15 16:15:46

Fun fact: Deserts and jungles have the same internal temperature as each other when building. This means that town buildings can go in either a jungle area OR a desert area, so long as you make sure not to put weird tiles inside the building and make sure to cover each tile/shut each door/etc.

I figured since a desert is naturally warmer than the jungle the effects wouldn't be as good as building in the jungle but it just turns out deserts + jungles are (currently) the correct place for people to build in. This means towns are a lot less restricting now that we have two workable biomes instead of just the one.

Shout out to Thaulos for suggesting the idea, I hadn't had the time to go through and test it (sort of forgot) and just happened to figure trying it out while I had a few minutes to spare.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-15 18:29:14

Tarr wrote:

...

I got born as a generation three child earlier today. We didn't have sheep (nor shears), but had some swamp trees cut when I was born. We had some iron around, so after doing a few other tasks like growing carrots, I forged up an adze, steel blade blank, and chisel (I think I got something else done with the forging fire like making more steel also). Some of us had clogs pre-sheep. I had the advantage of having a buttlog pile less than 10 tiles away from the forge before I started. I might have only done 6 clogs (maybe a few more), as there's always something else to do. I'm not sure that using a basket would have helped at all even, as people seemed really close, and I wouldn't want to take the smithing basket away (though maybe that's worth the hassle for someone else who wants to smith). Of course, the more clogs, the more supplies would help with outfitting people, and having a cart while doing it is almost surely worth it.

I haven't tried to get absolutely everyone clogs as I've had it happen that I threw the shoe at the person, and even try to say 'wear this', but then they walk away, there exist other things to do, and hopefully people can see how easy it is to make shoes.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-04-15 18:29:55)

Spoonwood · 2019-04-15 18:45:13

Psykout wrote:

Thanks for the insight Spoon. I haven't messed heavily with higher forging tech so was pulling that out of my ass a bit. Moreso i was referring to that if buildings were no longer such an investment they wouldn't need yo be so multipurpose. A room with a kiln just to make pottery wouldn't be insane at all.

I completely agree with that. Of course a too small room is possible, but it wouldn't need to be that big. Transporting charcoal somewhere else would just be one run, I suppose.

Psykout wrote:

I hope for that, everything being so scrutinized for efficiency and the constant struggle to maintain things feels like an artificial difficulty curve.

Most of my thoughts on efficiency haven't come from bigserver play, but more from low pop server player. I feel that bigserver play ends up chaotic... someone headblocks your tongs at the forge and after touching them becomes tricky, babies die on your forge, someone lights the forge without what you think consists of a decent organizational setup (e. g. a round stone isn't in a good spot) so I tend to react just by trying to help out that person, as I think that's better than running off to do something else and letting charcoal burn for a dozen or so seconds without any use. Oh and sometimes I feel distracted or something and end clicking on the wrong spot. And I feel sure I lite one of the newcomen machines yesterday when my daughter sure felt like 'what are you doing?' as I realized my poor choice rather quickly after I lite it.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-15 18:54:13

pein wrote:

actually a nursery could be a dog pen too, block the dogs inside it, only that kids could take out the small dogs and feed it there

I'd rather have a rubber ball. I've found making a dog dangerous also.

Tarr · 2019-04-16 14:52:47

Two hours to get this thing up and completely functional. Seeing all the rugs it does make the bakery visually distracting with all the bear rugs + random stuff on it as well. Had people rip up the flooring once because instead of letting the room cool they decided "it was too hot" thus causing the room to heat up to it's normal temperature.

I think the biggest thing here is getting people to understand that if they want a building to work for them they need to put it in the correct area. If rooms were made smaller than the maximum size they would both be quicker to finish + rugged properly in much less time than it took me to get to this point.

Last thing needed is to bust the old oven and get people to move to their new bakery.

Psykout · 2019-04-16 17:53:50

Hmm thats what I would worry about heavily, is the general user to not understand the cooling/heating property of buildings and claiming it doesn't work simply because they aren't closing doors. Still though mad props for getting a desert building up, and I do hope it is used.

The visual noise of the rugs is quite hard, I usually don't like them in anything but a nursery for that reason.

Personal opinion also is that 7x7 is a massive room, and there is little reason to use them especially as a bakery. They end up turning into a junk room that holds all the random stuff from a town, and have tons of traffic. If it becomes cluttered you have what, possibly 30+ tiles of objects to clear out, rather than a dozen or less. A room like that I would say would be better suited to hold all the extra tools and organize food for yummers.

Tarr · 2019-04-16 18:08:20

Yeah I think the time investment for putting up a room that size (and bringing it to its best possible temperature) is too much for anything other than a storage room. A bakery is probably fine around 5x5 or some sort of other variation so that it can be completely completed (walled, floored, rugged) in a single lifetime instead of devoting two whole lives to a building people may not understand.

With the concern of the general playerbase not understanding how they work I think it'll just be something that needs to be forced into villages for a week or so, that way they start to draw a connection between buildings and hot biomes. Every single building I put up I make sure to shove springs on eventually because even with the room gaining temperature when a door is open a springy door will only last long enough for the temp meter to shoot up about one tick.

Doing all this building really makes me wish neutral buildings were just as good as these things, and suddenly after seeing a fully rugged room I found out we really need another rug option that isn't so unpleasing to look at en mass.

Psykout · 2019-04-16 18:29:32

Not sure if any style of rug will look pleasing repeated over and over in tiles. More flooring options that behave differently would be more ideal. Such as stone floors would cool better than wood floors in this specific application. Unfortunately stone floors are way to expensive at the moment. 49 rocks to dig up to do that room in stone floors is sadistic.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-16 18:42:18

There's not enough buckets in town, someone from the 'milk is op crowd' gets ambitious and rips up just one wood floor (the person is ambitious, so really doesn't take just one board... and making more buckets seems hard to argue as griefing since not enough buckets consists of a persistent problem), and the bakery quickly becomes the worst for temperature. The temperature mechanics takes the moms not yumming from sitting at the front of the fertility line to the back of the fertility line in a matter of minutes (though it's not immediate with good clothing... but you would barely need clothing in such a bakery one would expect, right?). If I recall correctly, wooden disks fit in a backpack, so two buckets could get made quickly by someone smart even without a cart, and since it's clear that someone is making buckets, saying that such a person is griefing becomes very difficult to maintain. Pounding out stakes into the right position (as serious road builders probably know) isn't a quick process, and the wooden floor maker has to spend time going out and getting the butt logs or boards. And there's no froe in town, since with abundant access to boards in town, why would one worry about not having a froe? The bucket maker would need the rope, but if the bucket maker had friends growing milkweed, it's only 4 minutes for milkweed to grow, and they can start on such a project well before coming over to make the buckets.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-04-16 18:51:57)

Psykout · 2019-04-16 18:51:02

Solid point spoon. Typically someone doing something like this would just be a minor inconvenience and eyesore till fixed. In this case it would render the entirety of the building useless, which is part of the concern.

To Tarr, yeah I wish neutral buildings were better, but if they were wouldn't they make these jungle and desert buildings useless? In a sense the higher reward for mastering a more difficult habitat fits well.

Tarr · 2019-04-16 19:30:55

Spoonwood wrote:

There's not enough buckets in town, someone from the 'milk is op crowd' gets ambitious and rips up just one wood floor (the person is ambitious, so really doesn't take just one board... and making more buckets seems hard to argue as griefing since not enough buckets consists of a persistent problem), and the bakery quickly becomes the worst for temperature. The temperature mechanics takes the moms not yumming from sitting at the front of the fertility line to the back of the fertility line in a matter of minutes (though it's not immediate with good clothing... but you would barely need clothing in such a bakery one would expect, right?). If I recall correctly, wooden disks fit in a backpack, so two buckets could get made quickly by someone smart even without a cart, and since it's clear that someone is making buckets, saying that such a person is griefing becomes very difficult to maintain. Pounding out stakes into the right position (as serious road builders probably know) isn't a quick process, and the wooden floor maker has to spend time going out and getting the butt logs or boards. And there's no froe in town, since with abundant access to boards in town, why would one worry about not having a froe? The bucket maker would need the rope, but if the bucket maker had friends growing milkweed, it's only 4 minutes for milkweed to grow, and they can start on such a project well before coming over to make the buckets.

I disagree though, it is definitely griefing to turn a functional building into a burning mess because you're too lazy to make your own set of boards. The level of selfishness that comes from the idea of screwing over your bakers and their potential children because you can't be asked to chop down a tree definitely lands in the griefer spectrum. It's one thing to move boards from a useless room to a better suited area but it's another thing completely when compromising a room because you're being lazy. A woman working in a cold bakery (any time she is greater than one tile away from the fire) is going to suffer a heavier fertility negative than women working in our warm bakeries.

People would be doing this sort of floor griefing in front of multiple people as generally speaking the bakery almost always has people around it (even more people if women are raising children near or around the area. Sure, griefing these buildings could be a thing but that's just like with how normal buildings can be griefed. You cannot at any point make buildings that are immune to some sort of griefing tactic, and so worrying about the boogeyman 24/7 will just lead to you doing nothing ever because someone might just come along and ruin it. Should we not build sheep pens because people have the ability to release sheep maliciously? It's just as easy to do, and can be just as annoying to fix depending on what they end up doing to the sheep pen.

So no, I really don't think hot building biomes should be written off because there is an ability to grief them. Most things in game can be griefed just as easily and some are even harder to fix than just getting a new board or two.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-16 20:12:09

Tarr wrote:

I disagree though, it is definitely griefing to turn a functional building into a burning mess because you're too lazy to make your own set of boards.

no one would reasonably do this

Spoonwood · 2019-04-16 20:55:28

Tarr wrote:

Should we not build sheep pens because people have the ability to release sheep maliciously? It's just as easy to do, and can be just as annoying to fix depending on what they end up doing to the sheep pen.

Getting multiple rope in a town is just as easy finding the proper tool/set of tools to let the sheep out? Also, with a large pen, it's not like they all the sheep will run out at once, especially if every tile in the pen has an adult sheep or has dung on it. Also, if you have a full stable bell tower base pen with only bottom entrances (or just one bottom entrance) hidden by trees or maybe sugar cane, assuming that all crops can work as corner entrances, which I'm not entirely sure about, I'm sure the griefers would like to know the correct tool to destroy it. Yeah... people will joke and tell me it's the shovel, because I'm Spoon and potatoes consist of a food source. But I got something wrong in a previous sentence. It might end up as a set of correct tools to destroy such a corner entrance, and the griefers have know way of knowing which tool it is in advance or how long they have to wait.

And of course, just getting the board doesn't fix the problem. It has to get turned into flooring.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-16 21:07:57

Spoonwood wrote:

Tarr wrote:
Should we not build sheep pens because people have the ability to release sheep maliciously? It's just as easy to do, and can be just as annoying to fix depending on what they end up doing to the sheep pen.
Getting multiple rope in a town is just as easy finding the proper tool/set of tools to let the sheep out? Also, with a large pen, it's not like they all the sheep will run out at once, especially if every tile in the pen has an adult sheep or has dung on it. Also, if you have a full stable bell tower base pen with only bottom entrances (or just one bottom entrance) hidden by trees or maybe sugar cane, assuming that all crops can work as corner entrances, which I'm not entirely sure about, I'm sure the griefers would like to know the correct tool to destroy it. Yeah... people will joke and tell me it's the shovel, because I'm Spoon and potatoes consist of a food source. But I got something wrong in a previous sentence. It might end up as a set of correct tools to destroy such a corner entrance, and the griefers have know way of knowing which tool it is in advance or how long they have to wait.
And of course, just getting the board doesn't fix the problem. It has to get turned into flooring.

people can also simply kill sheep

Spoonwood · 2019-04-16 22:26:41

Also, and I didn't mention this before, I think, because of sleep problems, the whole 'go out and hack up a tree' proposition assumes that a froe still exists or you're finding it. Also, the thing about pretty much each bucket comes as that they improve the efficiency of multiple stations. Farms can use multiple buckets to cut down on running for water. The kitchen can use a bucket. The forge can use a bucket. A rubber maker can use multiple buckets. No oil rig without a bucket. Someone running a rig can use multiple buckets. The cow pen can use multiple buckets. Someone getting iron out of town can probably use a bucket. Even someone trying to improve the local water supply might use multiple buckets by using a horsecart to import water from more distant sources, and water regeneration happens for free given that you can wait (and waiting I do see can be an issue). Which resopnsibility doesn't get improved by having a bucket?

Maybe the lineage survives longer if someone doesn't rip up the wood flooring. But it will take longer to make a more efficient town in multiple respects (more respects than a cart) if bucket making gets slowed down.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-16 22:31:02

You should probably plant some trees, instead of destroying buildings. Just saying.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-16 23:03:23

DestinyCall wrote:

You should probably plant some trees, instead of destroying buildings. Just saying.

I even missed a good thing to do which can certainly use a bucket to get it done and have the ability to do something else in a life. One better start those trees as soon as possible in a life so that person can hopefully rewater them (does the person you're talking to want to take on the tree growing project?), and that's less likely to happen without a bucket.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-17 04:55:32

Booklat1 wrote:

people can also simply kill sheep

Of course, and I've see that happen. Tarr only mentioned sheep getting released though. A large sheep pen with a lot of sheep takes more time for a griefer to kill all of the sheep. With a mutton pie meat meta and not replacing those sheep at some point in time, the village ends up more vulnerable to sheep griefing, given that such entails not as many sheep in the pen. Ideally a large proportion of those sheep (not all, since, of course, you might want a sheep able to have a child fairly quickly) would also end up at the immobile sheep stage where they have just gotten shorn. The griefer then has to first move the fleece out of the pen. Then the griefer has to kill just that one sheep. The process repeats until all sheep get killed, of course. But, the griefer has to run around constantly slowing down the sheep killing process even if it's simple with a large sheep pen with plenty of immobile shorn sheep.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-17 07:01:16

You have such a strange view of how things work in the average village.

Only on very rare occasions do I see a sheep pen full of immobilized sheep. Almost always, whomever shears the sheep gathers the wool to be used for whatever project they have in mind. They will then go off to do whatever and leave the pen full of (mobile) sheared sheep. In order for the sheep to be left in the shorn but immobile state, people would need to intentionally shear the sheep when they have no particular use for the wool OR they would need to feed a shorn sheep after they got the wool they want, preparing it for the next person. Neither of these things is very likely to happen in the average village. And while leaving the wool on the sheep would slow down a griefer, it won't stop one who is determined to slaughter your sheep any more than it will stop the shepherd from cleaning up the pen. At best, it makes the griefer's "job" a little harder, so he might decide to break the pen instead. Or kill the mouflon, which is arguably worse than over-slaughtering the regular sheep. Griefers are lazy and stupid, but they are also persistent.

All of this is beside the point, since sheep pens were only mentioned because Tarr was trying to make the argument that you don't give up on keeping sheep just because sheep pen griefing exists. Likewise, you don't (necessarily) give up on jungle buildings simply because the floors are vulnerable to griefing. Your concern about honest people dismantling floors to make buckets for the good of the village is frankly laughable. The limiting factor on bucket production is NEVER the availability of wooden boards. If you have the necessary tools to make buckets, you should already have carts. If you have a cart, you can go find a tree somewhere within a reasonable walk of your town in all but the oldest of cities. Gathering butt logs will not slow you down at all. All you need is an ax and a tree. The real problem is milkweed. You need a rope for each bucket and that takes a ton of milkweed. You will have plenty of time to find some logs or unused boards while you scavenge or grow enough milkweed to make a couple buckets. There's no reason at all to start dismantling floors or stealing boards from other people's projects to speed up bucket production, since the rate-limiting step is something else entirely.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-17 18:01:43

With respect to game mechanics, though possibly better temperature for the fertile women, I'm not sure how much of a jump for their fertility probability this makes for. They have to hang around this sort of bakery, and it's not likely to end up well-stocked with a variety of food types. It's also away from camp as I understand things. A well-organized camp with a variety of food quickly identifiable (multiple pie types for purposes of fertility probability enhancement I don't think the way to go at present, since even if organized, they can get disorganized quickly, and eating pies for purposes of yum like that can become frustrating especially when disorganized in my experience) might end up as a more of a jump in the fertility queue than getting fertile women closer to the ideal temperature more often. It's by no means clear that even if people hung around in a bakery, ceteris paribus, this would end up better than town organization for the purposes of readily available yum. With the lineage ban, people might get born into that town as a population boom, and then when they play again won't get reborn there, ending up with the lack of fertile women problem. Yum might have less of an effect each generation given that fewer people will do it, but that might entail fewer people getting banned due to the lineage mechanics each generation.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-17 18:44:53

DestinyCall wrote:

You have such a strange view of how things work in the average village.
Only on very rare occasions do I see a sheep pen full of immobilized sheep.

I don't recall making any sort of assertion about how people play. Tarr asked a question about not building sheep pens. A full bell tower base sheep pen with corner entrances hidden by sugar cane or trees will NOT be quick. Early on, the sheep pen has a lot of value for the easy accessibility of a ball of thread and a needle. So, something like a sugar cane pen or an adobe oven base pen. My talking about a more difficult to grief sheep more comes along the lines of a second sheep pen, since it requires more steel tools to get out, and you can really use a handcart, if not a horsecart, given that it's sizable. Then you need feed a whole lot of sheep.

Additionally, experienced players or players thinking about such things don't always have to do jobs that generally get regarded as advanced. They could be the sheep tender for such a purpose. At least if some experienced player has the willingness to do that.

DestinyCall wrote:

Almost always, whomever shears the sheep gathers the wool to be used for whatever project they have in mind. They will then go off to do whatever and leave the pen full of (mobile) sheared sheep. In order for the sheep to be left in the shorn but immobile state, people would need to intentionally shear the sheep when they have no particular use for the wool OR they would need to feed a shorn sheep after they got the wool they want, preparing it for the next person.

I created a few immobile sheep in a server12 town last night. But I wasn't looking for the wool. I wanted the dung for composting. That will reduce the efficiency of fleece production. But after seeing some villages with excess sheep skin on people, I'm not sure how big of a loss the efficiency of fleece production is.

DestinyCall wrote:

And while leaving the wool on the sheep would slow down a griefer, it won't stop one who is determined to slaughter your sheep any more than it will stop the shepherd from cleaning up the pen.

Tarr talked about the sheep getting let out. Also, I'm not so sure the immobile sheep with fleece below it can get killed.

DestinyCall wrote:

At best, it makes the griefer's "job" a little harder, so he might decide to break the pen instead.

Instead of killing the sheep? The immobile sheep doesn't move even out in the wild as I understand it. The pen got griefed by the griefer cutting the sugar cane or tree... then finding the appropriate tools to destroy the crop (which by the way... isn't even grown... it's dry), and then sheep can't move, right? As far as I know there is no way to make an instantaneous indestructible structure. So, all the person who has to do who fixes the pen with the immobile sheep in it (sans corner) comes as to repair the corner. That's almost surely less time than getting another sheep.

DestinyCall wrote:

If you have the necessary tools to make buckets, you should already have carts.

No, carts decay. The town might not have any carts.

DestinyCall wrote:

If you have a cart, you can go find a tree somewhere within a reasonable walk of your town in all but the oldest of cities. Gathering butt logs will not slow you down at all. All you need is an ax and a tree.

No, if I recall correct juniper trees and palm trees won't work. Neither will mango trees. Neither will empty banana trees. Also, I don't think you considered the aspect of branch trees with what you said. Cut any tree to make a bucket? But then the local kindling pressure becomes more intense, and you need more water and soil for branches. Personally I usually squirm when I see on a stream when I see someone cutting a local branch. Sometimes it's the thing to do, but I think it safer to assume that one simply shouldn't cut a branch tree.

DestinyCall wrote:

The real problem is milkweed.

Milkweed does make for an issue. But it's not the only one. Didn't I mention a bucket for the smith? Smithing burns more kindling than any station probably. Cooking burns a lot of kindling too.

DestinyCall wrote:

You need a rope for each bucket and that takes a ton of milkweed. You will have plenty of time to find some logs or unused boards while you scavenge or grow enough milkweed to make a couple buckets. There's no reason at all to start dismantling floors or stealing boards from other people's projects to speed up bucket production, since the rate-limiting step is something else entirely.

If I recall correctly, I talked to Tarr in the discord about how people will react to people ripping up a wooden floor for material. His response implies that he has already done that. It ends up as more steps to walk out, hack up a tree, separate the firewood to get the butt log, drop the froe on it, whack with a mallet, drop down a wooden disk, and then combine with a rope, than to rip up a wooden floor, put it together with a wooden disk, and then place a rope on it.

Tarr · 2019-04-19 19:29:52

Anyways, I was playing around and it is possible to have jungle buildings that don't require any doors on them but their hallways will be hot for anyone traveling inside and out. This building was mostly just a test to see whether or not it was even possible to design a room (with a fire somewhere) to stop from needing to make weird fire rooms or if I could get away with having no doors what so ever.

The only bad aspect of this is that you're required to make sure to set up the hallway the correct way or else you'll gain heat in the building. The extended hallway is able to be on cold tiles (basically the first two tiles south of the fire) so it's also possible to make an entrance to the building lead in from a cold biome.

Add a few more entrances and maybe some more rooms (or extend the size) and you'd probably have a decent little buildings.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-19 19:33:53

A couple property gates and you have an air-conditioned castle to call home.

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