So obvious and we missed it META discussion

pein · 2019-04-19 09:36:18

Im playing this game for a long time, maybe lot of you don't know me on that side, but i was the very first eves who made a lot of decent camps. Early on when we started, Joriom had a guide for eves, and was quite comprehensive, really showed how hard is to set up a working town, back then you struggled with a big family trying to setup things, once you had the carrot farms, you were set, but most camps never got to that point.
There was a lot of emphasis on abandoning children as we had a lot of people and no lineage or area ban, but we could find the towns we made and they didn't decay.

Lot of people didn't even knew how to make things like a backpack or bowls.

I never been really into the Eve game, as lot of others did, some players just played as eve at start, to perfect their strategies.

But i always liked to play 2-3. gen, and still do, i got the basic things like kiln, fire tools, and some food, im happy.
I was a good farmer and a great rabbit hunter at the beginning, but got boring quite fast.

I made myself a name making very fast pens, very early, even when the compost was nerfed and people were forced to get sheep to make soil, i managed to make pens gen 2-4 , my idea of pit pens was a long time meta, and lot of us became better, faster at buildign so by the time it was removed by pit decay, we were developing other strategies.

I complain a lot but there is some truth in it always, also i follow how people react to my experiments and try to make my strategies better.

Generally i just focused on tools, then a pen, and rushing trough the tech tree, and my presence often times enough to create stable cities, long lasting lineages. I was always function over form, but i don't mind if something has both. So i made creative pens, different entrance types.
When we got the new players and jason made tutorials i got to a point of boredom, and started digging out bushes, to make wood roads. Morti was the first who made 3x3 plots for farms, i was kinda the first who made mass scale optimizations in cities, like fences near strategic points and cisterns.

I like new ideas even if they are weird, when it works, like first the boards around farms didn't prevent planting but psychologically were effective stop to berry extending. Rather than complaining about it, controlling it in some degree makes difference.

I had a few moments of surpise, and i like when others came up with smart things. Like filling pits with rabbit bones or biome locking animals.

So the meta is not made by one person, collective ideas get tested and when they work people start doing it more often the ngets adopted by others. Lot of times forum and discord players react very fast, but the main public only picks it up later.

My latest meta idea was the Sugar cane pens, i did 3 since the update, first i finished it faster then my mom made the adobe one, and people enjoyed it a lot. Eventually got cut and the sheep been moved int othe adobe one (i think Coco family)

I did another later on in Crystal family which lasted till i got back, that was the 3rd. The second one was in another tiny camp with lack of adobe and stone, and people liked the look of it.

Today i seen a ot of sugarcane cut in bears family and some escaped sheep.
Pretty obvious that someone made a smaller sugarcane pen, then surrounded it with adobe.

So the seed was planted, and the sugarcane as temporary solution seems pretty decent, and im happy people started doing it. But the camp looked very weird, i was born near the oven and it had a 3x3 berry farm with no water nearby, people made boards around the oven , and a road was to a berry field around the ponds (please just stop that, it's a very good realization when you carry soil to water, not water to soil, but the proximity to water doesn't have to be 1 tiles, it only affects you before you got deep wells, then suddenly becomes an issue, rather than a benefit, there is nothing wrong keeping 2 tile distance from every single pond, then you can have a road system around and between ponds, and a nice preplanned symmetric berry field)

So when you are a baby and you zoom out you see the camp and think what is good, what is bad, what you will focus on, sometimes i spend a lfie making roads around berry and a nice farm and providing compost, food for others, but then the city wont advance technoligically.
It's enough for me to walk around a camp and i know what tools are missing, where the Eve or the smartest player got stuck.

This generally is the lack of ropes, so no bow, so no file and saw, but can be iron, or lack of pen, or stew makers before axe, or multiple hoes before a mine. Sometimes i even see it from the baby fire and often think about the reasons why things turned out like that.

And this gave me enlightment, the weird camp where things were in order, spaced out, not fully optimal but still decent.

I didn't liked to even make an oven before the sheep pen cause it's unsustainable to make pies with wild wheat and a few rabbits, or use up the soil for wheat planting before other plants.

But i had an eve run where 2 girls ran into a boar, and one quit cause i told her that we don't need an oven, especially not 4 tiles away from the kiln.
After that we talked about in forums and we kind of agreed to better place an oven in a good spot than someone tosses down a random oven and then you cannot move it and people start floors around it and it's too close to everything.

WE ALL DOING IT WRONG!
We should do the oven first! It's no joke that the new players consider the kiln as a town center, as it's the first structure they see and it's a sign that their eve isn't the dumb mom who runs around the forest, and they all starve at a point.
So they make eggs there, home marker, gather rabbits and other stuff, most of them doesn't even know how to make bowls.
So what if we MAKE OVEN FIRST.
Now this is a bit of delay, and you might even need to tell others that this will be an oven before they convert it to kiln.
you put a home marker, two stones, baby fire, flat rocks for eggs, generally in the middle of a big empty place. This will be the starting point and others will gather the stuff there.

Next step, you make the kiln further away from it. You don't need water for the kiln, not even the clay, sure is good to have some close by, but the main thing you will need is some kindling, iron , flat rocks, definitely not berry bushes, rabbits and eggs. Who can explore, will find it, but the ones who just try to play and stay alive will return to the oven
Now i generally made 2nd kiln, to process iron faster but most of the times i spend 5 min to make a new kiln, turned out to be much better in long term, people didn't disturbed me that much, made every tool faster and less stress

thing is, your first kiln will be very bad after a few generation, they might make a kitchen to left and a pen to right, and you are limited to 10 free tiles where people will still drop garbage. Maybe people compromise and stay there rather than making new but others run across it left and right.

You can keep an old kiln, the return of 1 adobe doesn't really worth it anyway, can be used for pottery and charcoal for newcommen.

I would be interested what happens when you do this, maybe even post a photo on how the camp turns out.

Amon · 2019-04-19 09:49:47

Will consider this next time I eve. Honestly trying out oven first would not be such a disturbance since I leave up smithing to my daughters,

An oh god I hated it so much when the forge is by the farms and the farms and sheep pen are as far away as possible from the kitchen.

breezeknight · 2019-04-19 10:22:25

pein wrote:

...
So when you are a baby and you zoom out ...

yeah, great

sorry

if this game is going to be fixed by a mod, nope ...

DestinyCall · 2019-04-19 12:47:23

breezeknight wrote:

pein wrote:
...
So when you are a baby and you zoom out ...
yeah, great
sorry
if this game is going to be fixed by a mod, nope ...

"So when you are a baby and your mom takes you on a tour of the village"

There we go, breezeknight. All better.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-19 14:22:38

I think the oven as the center of town makes for the right concept.

But, with this sort of approach you would delay getting up a farm or have one farmer getting up a farm with a water pouch and tilling 3 soil instead of 2 (you would wait to turn the water pouch into the bellows perhaps until you have iron and some kindling also, some kindling as the iron isn't useful until you have the steel tool heads). That might be advantageous though. Since the kiln doesn't take at that long to get up with this approach, the Eve should still be in her fertile period. And any child that you get early will then need to come as one of the stronger players who can live off of wild food for a bit longer. Local wild food might not get tight as early, since the local berry bushes won't get completely stripped, at least not by one person who isn't throwing them on the ground like an idiot, and with people living off wild food a little longer that might mean there's a little more time, even though not close to 10 minutes, for the wild bush to get one berry back. Thinking on it, building the kiln might be the last thing you would want to do. You get branches, make tongs, get clay, bonk it out, and finally build your kiln with the abode ready to cover it. After all, the kiln isn't useful other than as a symbol until something has gotten fired in it. A kiln just sitting around comes as a symbol. Since you can't eat clay, charcoal, wrought iron, or steel, but can eat food cooked from the oven, the oven as a symbol and center of camp has more value. Of course though, you need the kiln, as without a kiln you won't be able to support what people at the oven need, or other people around town need also, so Eves who don't make it to a kiln will be lucky to have a lineage and get a girl who can be a baby Eve, or have a boy who knows the firing and smithing role, while the girl handles other things.

I'm not so sure that a second steel hoe comes as a problem before an iron mine. It really depends on how much iron on the ground exists in multiple directions. Sure, if you have an iron mine close, the second steel hoe seems a bit silly. But, even then, the iron mine might only have 7 iron, and getting 6 iron in some direction on the ground might not be all that bad.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-19 14:50:03

Can we add berry ROWS as a new meta? I'm so sick of berry patches. Vertical rows, two bushes wide, separated by at least one tile. So much easier to tend.

Jk Howling · 2019-04-19 18:42:14

An early oven does sound like it could be decent. Establishes the center of town, maybe even keeps the baby flood away from the forge area. And early pies are surprisingly underestimated.

I mean, they're not really needed if you keep carrots going til the first berries come in, but I've saved a few early civs by rushing early rabbit/rabbit-carrot pies using wild wheat/carrots and all those damn rabbits gathered from backpack-making.

They're simply unused resources laying around causing clutter at that stage, becoming less and less desirable as time goes on. Once you reach sheep, they're practically irrelevant. Doesn't hurt to make them into something people will use at that time. Wheat isn't scarce, is easy to grow, and will be needed later for compost anyways. The only thing a bit scarce that early is plates, and that's solvable.

I might try out putting an early oven nearby next time I'm in an eve run or early camp. See if it makes any difference in having kids suicide. Hell, maybe it'll even help us unexpectedly.

futurebird · 2019-04-19 18:57:00

DestinyCall wrote:

Can we add berry ROWS as a new meta? I'm so sick of berry patches. Vertical rows, two bushes wide, separated by at least one tile. So much easier to tend.

Please! I was in an eve camp and carefully planted 2x6 rows, 3 in total and came back from an iron run to find that someone had filled it all in!!! The monster!

Elsayal · 2019-04-19 19:51:27

I can't read all of it, so I can't answer to this message. (Sorry for the trollage)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-19 20:11:42

Elsayal wrote:

I can't read all of it, so I can't answer to this message. (Sorry for the trollage)

Cliff Notes version - we should build the oven first. Instead of making the forge the center of the early village, find a good spot for the bakery early and build the forge later, away from the farms and water.

It is a good idea.

voy178 · 2019-04-19 20:28:24

One good way to signal that it's an oven by choice is to add the first batch of pies next to it or unfinished ones. Most would not bother with making a kiln out of it then.

I like the idea. It's really important to try to put down the layout of a town early because people will fuck it up if they're left to do the work themselves.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-19 21:15:11

voy178 wrote:

One good way to signal that it's an oven by choice is to add the first batch of pies next to it or unfinished ones. Most would not bother with making a kiln out of it then.
I like the idea. It's really important to try to put down the layout of a town early because people will fuck it up if they're left to do the work themselves.

I think Pein was suggesting building an oven before firing clay. There's no way to have a batch of pies without plates.

Also, with the forge a bit further away, there's the possibility that griefing might have more of an effect, since the smith or those at the smith seem more likely to be the more advanced players. Though, I could be mistaken in that assumption.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-19 22:51:36

Spoonwood wrote:

voy178 wrote:
One good way to signal that it's an oven by choice is to add the first batch of pies next to it or unfinished ones. Most would not bother with making a kiln out of it then.
I like the idea. It's really important to try to put down the layout of a town early because people will fuck it up if they're left to do the work themselves.
I think Pein was suggesting building an oven before firing clay. There's no way to have a batch of pies without plates.
Also, with the forge a bit further away, there's the possibility that griefing might have more of an effect, since the smith or those at the smith seem more likely to be the more advanced players. Though, I could be mistaken in that assumption.

you bring a good point, is there anything ovens do before pottery?

DestinyCall · 2019-04-19 23:18:42

Booklat1 wrote:

you bring a good point, is there anything ovens do before pottery?

They look cute and say "someday you can make pies here".

I think the point is not to USE the oven before you use the forge. But simple to define a space as "the bakery" so that the village can grow around that spot, instead of being centered around the forge.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-19 23:22:15

DestinyCall wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
you bring a good point, is there anything ovens do before pottery?
They look cute and say "someday you can make pies here".
I think the point is not to USE the oven before you use the forge. But simple to define a space as "the bakery" so that the village can grow around that spot, instead of being centered around the forge.

i see that, but if left idle with an oven kids might cause problems. I sometimes gathered some skewers after kiln to keep kids busy with farming, this seems similar but if oven does nothing kids might go out and die.

Thaulos · 2019-04-19 23:28:51

I have been doing furnaces at the same time as forges for ages. You get 3 adobe per basket. For two trips you get 6. That's 4 for the forge and 2 for the furnace.

I normally make the furnaces either facing wherever I think the pen will be or one tile away from the the kiln (left of right). Lately I've been doing the latter more and more. They can be easily expanded into a second kiln and we can just make another furnace elsewhere.

Pies are great (specially rabbit pies) for early game and completely independent from tools. And you don't need to farm at all to get the wheat and rabbits. It can make the town a lot more sustainable relatively quickly. Helps reduce skewer usage as well which is a pain early on.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-19 23:30:38)

pein · 2019-04-20 06:37:59

breeze, that's no excuse for not knowing what the camp needs in max 5 minutes
don't act like others cant play vanilla or never played it
i got iron veins, made pens bigger than the screen and pretty sure i would play 90% the same as with zoom
with zoom i go close to rabbits for same reason as no zoom, to wake them up
maybe i see more and i can do fancy setups which work too, but your navigation skills can be good in vanilla too

yeah, just dummy oven, honestly i seen so many times, some kid grabs the forge adobe from both forges, makes an oven at a random spot and then 10 min later they put boards around it and walls regardless of blocking tiles, berry farm (berry near a wall is the signal of true idiots that think berry is only for eating it, when berry is expanded, still has an edge row, but near a wall just never gonna get picked into bowls)

lot of times i see you chuck down a marker, put fire tools near it, make fire, you or others make kiln near a visible water so kids know you got a decent spot, then someone plants a bush 3 tiles away from the kiln cause you gotta eat while cooking one adobe
then the babies come to fire and no chance you can smith in a decent time, and they put all food near kiln

honestly i hate when kiln and oven is same place
on a priority list forge is 10, when needed is needed urgently, has to be ready all the time, especially when you got iron
no bones, no food near it, and keep the stone, minimum 3 bowls and 3 plates there all the time
and don't stack the damn flat rocks when somebody using it

sure, pies can be important, but you got time to clean it up and arrange it and honestly eggs near an oven not so annoying as near a kiln

i just never seen an issue to work in clutter near an oven, sure is annoying but not wasting other than time
someone covering up the forge will waste you time, makes you stressed for the rest of process, and you lose a kindling, the next on will be further and further and suddenly all the biome empty, gg, your grandson will finish the tools.

you will do the kiln right after, you just don't make it near the main fire or ponds, you find a spot with branches and possibly clay, like 15 tiles away from the oven
and that oven, you place in a way that nothing around it can be blocked, maybe count 7x7 center so it's on a green biome or whatever you prefer
even calculate the sheep pen next to it

generally i like the pen right near a useless biome, like ice, so i can dump the bones that side
so the other corner faces the oven and the third the bushes, the fourth is not really necessary, and even 2 entrances are ok if you have a small one
since bones and sheep wont block in any state, the only issue is to don't walk much extra with the food, the poop or with meat or bones

if they plant bushes near oven, who cares? you will move oven, lose 1 adobe
if they make a room around oven, who cares? wont block your forges cause you put them further

this only a problem for eve, or you are the smartest person who actually can do stuff
so you basically can tell each kid, that this is an oven, don't convert it
and maybe put some bananas and other wild food near it

i think this should work on early stages to keep the kilns clear, and when you got the rooms and stuff, people wouldn't mess up even more or the mess would be elsewhere, people can stand very long in same spot and do the same things they mother did with them

Last edited by pein (2019-04-20 07:29:37)

Thaulos · 2019-04-20 07:07:28

A furnace is just two adobe. You don't make pies that often nor do you that that many clutter around both on eve camps. Just don't make the eggs there. Making it central makes it easier for people to know there is proper food available.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-04-19 09:36:18

So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#2 2019-04-19 09:49:47

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#3 2019-04-19 10:22:25

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#4 2019-04-19 12:47:23

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#5 2019-04-19 14:22:38

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#6 2019-04-19 14:50:03

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#7 2019-04-19 18:42:14

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#8 2019-04-19 18:57:00

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#9 2019-04-19 19:51:27

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#10 2019-04-19 20:11:42

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#11 2019-04-19 20:28:24

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#12 2019-04-19 21:15:11

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#13 2019-04-19 22:51:36

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#14 2019-04-19 23:18:42

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#15 2019-04-19 23:22:15

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#16 2019-04-19 23:28:51

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#17 2019-04-20 06:37:59

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

#18 2019-04-20 07:07:28

Re: So obvious and we missed it META discussion

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