Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

futurebird · 2019-04-25 15:35:35

I was in a really bad mood last night about the very positive and welcoming way that Jason responded to one of Toxic's threads. I've always seen griefers as a nuisance and thought that Jason shared that view but he seems to think they are an important part of the game and every town should have one. So, maybe I've been playing this game all wrong, missing out on a whole style of play. So I embarked on killing whatever town I was born in to. Here is what I discovered:

-griefing is fun if you don't think about how much annoyance and frustration you are causing other people much. You look at your every action in the game from a new perspective: not "how can make my line last as long as possible?" but "how do I end this without being noticed?" It's refreshing and different.
-griefing is easy. Normally I look at the population of my village as a rough indicator of how well I did in that life, if I made it go up and if the town is well provisioned for the future I feel good about that. This is gets harder the higher the starting population is. Going from 3 to 6 people is easy, but getting from 10 up to 13 much harder. But, since my goal in these lives was to end the town all I had to do is drive that number down. No matter how hight it is this isn't too hard.
-you almost always have help. Since I was focused on things that would hurt the town it made me much more aware of other people doing the same thing. In two of the towns I was in the bellows went missing. That wasn't me. Other things went wrong and soon I was able to pick out other griefers though one was a bit to obvious about it and the town decided to kill her. So, the town helped me too one less fertile girl.

Since griefing is part of how Jason wants us to play the game I think you should try it out if you have any inclination. There is no reason to be the victim all of the time. I guess that's just something I didn't understand about this game.

Ari-ori-412 · 2019-04-25 15:40:05

I have no fucking words for people like you.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-25 15:42:37

futurebird wrote:

Since griefing is part of how Jason wants us to play the game I think you should try it out if you have any inclination. There is no reason to be the victim all of the time. I guess that's just something I didn't understand about this game.

at the end of the day its just a game, just pisses me off when someone griefs and goes "but im actually nice"

griefing IS still being a jerk to other people for fun though

Ace · 2019-04-25 15:43:34

You go girl. Hit me up if you want to twin, maybe join one of the two griefing channels and we can talk about it.

Oblong · 2019-04-25 15:47:05

to be fair, futurebird has a point, you cant always be nice and sit there and never take action, i always have thoughts of griefing but the fear of being mass cursed stops me from doing so, ive always thought about going apeshit to show how i feel, but im nice enough not to, i get cursed anyway just for simple things like pointing out theres already a damn shovel right next to us when the guy who cursed me asked me to smith a shovel, my lifetime curses are stacked by the same 1-2 people, im starting to think that caring about the game less is the way to play as doing something nice almost never pays off in ohol, why not let loose once for a change amirite

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-25 15:48:00

I just banned futurebird.

(just kidding)

Ace · 2019-04-25 15:50:02

My heart skipped a beat there when i read the first line.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-25 16:03:20

Also, I don't think you quite understand my point here.

Reality is about the balance between chaos and order. Maintaining order is something to strive for, and gives life meaning.

Without the threat of at least some chaos, there's nothing to strive for, and nothing to fight against, and nothing to organize around.

A griefer represents a little shard of chaos. A griefer is something that everyone can agree on. Its something they can band together against. They can fight the good fight. Without that shard of chaos, they wouldn't need to band together in quite the same way.

Even what Futurebird is doing here.... it's at least provocative. It's not boring. You don't read that post and go, "Ho hum." It gets your pulse pounding. It elicits a response.

Now, that said, I don't want griefers to rule this game. I don't want it to be a non-stop grief-fest. I want to give you the tools to collectively rise up and defend yourself against the griefers.

And as I've said before, preventing griefing in this game is impossible, from a design standpoint. Even if I ban people, they can still buy new accounts (and trust me, they will).

There are so many people on here, who in the past have said, "Just remove murder." I hope I've hammered that point home enough that it's just a straw man at this point. But I'm bringing it up to highlight that it's not a simple problem with a simple solution.

It's kinda reminds me of the Halting Problem from theoretical computer science. You can't write a computer program that analyzes another computer program and tells you with certainty whether it exits correctly or gets into an infinite loop. Why? If someone handed you such a loop-detection program, you could embed it in your own program, run it on yourself, and then do the opposite of what the program says you will do. Thus, such a program cannot exist. The problem comes from the ability of computer programs to run other computer programs, including themselves.

Likewise, in a multiplayer game, it's impossible to stop all griefing as a matter of design. Metaphorically, human beings are at least as capable as Turing machines....

Guppy · 2019-04-25 16:16:33

jasonrohrer wrote:

And as I've said before, preventing griefing in this game is impossible, from a design standpoint. Even if I ban people, they can still buy new accounts (and trust me, they will).

How is that an argument against banning griefers?

They lose more and more money and will eventually stop caring and move on to another game. And the money they lose helps you pay the bills and whatnot and enables you to focus more on the game. Win-Win for me

Ace · 2019-04-25 16:18:58

Why not just make microtransactions, just 20cents and your knife wound can be healed automatically. It would make duels and clan wars competitive. (sarcasm)

Guppy wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
And as I've said before, preventing griefing in this game is impossible, from a design standpoint. Even if I ban people, they can still buy new accounts (and trust me, they will).
How is that an argument against banning griefers?
They lose more and more money and will eventually stop caring and move on to another game. And the money they lose helps you pay the bills and whatnot and enables you to focus more on the game. Win-Win for me

It's amazing how many people think that "griefers" are doing something that warrants their removal from the game. I guess this is one of those trolls that tunnel-vision on one sentence and don't read the whole idea for it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I don't think you quite understand my point here.
Reality is about the balance between chaos and order. Maintaining order is something to strive for, and gives life meaning.
Without the threat of at least some chaos, there's nothing to strive for, and nothing to fight against, and nothing to organize around.
A griefer represents a little shard of chaos. A griefer is something that everyone can agree on. Its something they can band together against. They can fight the good fight. Without that shard of chaos, they wouldn't need to band together in quite the same way.
Even what Futurebird is doing here.... it's at least provocative. It's not boring. You don't read that post and go, "Ho hum." It gets your pulse pounding. It elicits a response.

How did guppy go over all this and not read it?

Last edited by Ace (2019-04-25 16:23:32)

futurebird · 2019-04-25 16:28:54

For the recored I have never supported totally banning or even trying to get rid of griefers from the game. I think it would be a big mistake because it make choice meaningless and kind of reduces it to a farming simulator. I just thought that if the *goal* the *vision* of the game was to "build civilization" then the *official* forums and discord should be supportive of it and discourage posts like this one. (I think people keep missing that.)

My question is: Are griefers an annoyance to be minimized or are they (we!) valid type of game play that we *want* in the game? I used to think obviously not, but what can you do if you want it to be a real sanbox? There are serious issues with eliminating griefing even if you don't want it --what you do or don't do to address it is a separate question and the answer to that question could be "we do nothing, but as the creator of this game I'd rather not see griefing wreck towns. I'd rather see less of it."

That isn't the answer Jason has been giving (you can reject my idea for banning bragging from the forum, it would be a pain to administer fairly but still recognize that griefing isn't a positive part of the game but rather the price you play for having real freedom.) I'm glad you at least do not want griefers to "take over."

Still, if it is a planned part of the game I'm not missing out on that "content" and I don't see why anyone else should either.

Astelon · 2019-04-25 16:32:25

Instead of relying on players to bring chaos and destruction, why not make the game do that? Right now, only temperature and some animals that are easy to avoid are nature's weapons against civilization. What about weather? Or wild animal attacks (excluding bears which are pretty much brought by people)? Or pests?

Ace · 2019-04-25 16:34:54

Astelon wrote:

Instead of relying on players to bring chaos and destruction, why not make the game do that? Right now, only temperature and some animals that are easy to avoid are nature's weapons against civilization. What about weather? Or wild animal attacks (excluding bears which are pretty much brought by people)? Or pests?

Because it's more fun this way, it creates jobs for people, jobs that take a bit of intelligence to be done right i would say.

Tarr · 2019-04-25 16:36:42

There will always be griefing no matter what you do or what we do though things can always be balanced to be better. The only sort of nerf twin griefers have suffered is the ability to spawn back to a city and that was mostly used to taxi people back into their old towns instead of having a murder twin with a healer twin. Broken heart syndrome, everyone getting curses, comparing curses to determine donkey town eligibility, SOMETHING should have been done about this specific type of griefing forever ago.

You should never have to ask someone outside of the game to identify themselves to be able to make the accountable since the system does nothing to actually stop this sort of tactic. When Twisted said to just kill twins+ do you know how many people were upset? Players trying to just play with friends get the twin stigma which flares up every few weeks because our options are to keep no twins+ at all or risk getting griefed with no real punishment for them.

Murder is the tool to remove them from my town but without cursing or donkey town I am just shoving trolls onto other people for them to deal with. League had the tribunal + the new automated system to deal with people either being racist or running it down, CoD classically has a system to punt you out of the game if you constantly frag your own teammates, WoW has chat restrictions and bans. Our system by far isn't perfect but I would rather have a system that can do its job vs one that doesn't have two legs to stand on.

When the tools are actually there to deal with griefers then strip away the magic exile but before then there has to be at least something. I don't know about you specifically but a guy running around saying "I sure do hate niggers." Isn't the type of person I want to be around but I will surely run into him again at some point. All my knife did was move this guy elsewhere on the map (mostly because I used my curse on the person killing the towns little girls.)

I repeatedly standby the viewpoint that murder needs to actually do something besides move someone from point A to point B. Trolls will punish innocent players but a normal player shouldn't be getting killed every single life so that shouldn't be a problem. On the flip side this makes it so if a troll is getting killed multiple times they get a soft donkey town treatment which makes sense in my opinion. If people all around the game think you're stab worthy it's not a community problem, it's a you problem.

Dodge · 2019-04-25 16:48:55

Better medical system = problem solved?

Maybe not entirely but having official medics that can carry all the stuff necessary to heal wounds would decrease a lot of the murders

Current sterile pads should not be able to be carried as is since they wouldnt be sterile anymore...

But another medical update could be nice

sdogg2m · 2019-04-25 18:38:51

Jason is griefing his own children for killing what could essentially be a multi-million dollar money maker.

Solbusaur · 2019-04-25 18:51:18

jasonrohrer wrote:

I want to give you the tools to collectively rise up and defend yourself against the griefers.

In that case can we have some sort of murder doll in the tutorial so that new players know how to defend themselves? Since it's part of the controls, I think it's better to have the tutorial show them as it teaches the bare basics of ALL the controls

Roblor · 2019-04-25 19:25:49

Vampire update!!! One designated player needs to feed on the lifeblood (hunger meter) of others for sustenance. Drama secured !!! Yes I take both creditcard and Paypal. Like share subscribe marry me and adopt my baby. Please curse Bob he's a greifer.

futurebird · 2019-04-25 19:37:32

I got bored with griefing after the third time.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-25 19:43:12

Roblor wrote:

Vampire update!!! One designated player needs to feed on the lifeblood (hunger meter) of others for sustenance. Drama secured !!! Yes I take both creditcard and Paypal. Like share subscribe marry me and adopt my baby. Please curse Bob he's a greifer.

It is always daytime, our houses have no roofs, and every village keeps wooden stakes around, just in case. We solved our vampire problem long ago.

Did you think we left our dead out in the sun just to save iron? Don't be ridiculous. It is the only way to make be sure that they never come back.

hmrka · 2019-04-25 20:15:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

A griefer represents a little shard of chaos. A griefer is something that everyone can agree on. Its something they can band together against. They can fight the good fight. Without that shard of chaos, they wouldn't need to band together in quite the same way.
Even what Futurebird is doing here.... it's at least provocative. It's not boring. You don't read that post and go, "Ho hum." It gets your pulse pounding. It elicits a response.

As fun as it is to kill griefers, It's still sad that some people only play this game to ruin it for others, and then pat each others backs, on this forum.

Btw jason I'm still waiting for you to fix total lifetime curse score, it harms veteran players.
At least making total hours played somehow count into the equation would make it more fair.

sdogg2m · 2019-04-25 20:28:52

There are two tools that you (Jason) could give us that will greatly improve our experience and help us to win the war on griefing.

1) Make cursing a command so children can do this. This has been mentioned several times and opposed by notorious griefers. Why? Because they know they can kill a few adults a risk a couple or no curses and then go after the children who cannot (or vise versa).

2) Make burying corpses as a way to circumvent the lineage ban. If you are able to bury a corpse to gain a quality family member back then this will aid in preserving towns. This will also be an effective deterrent against solo griefing as you can hide the corpse. Yes, this isn't a flawless recommendation but would be most helpful.

Roblor · 2019-04-25 21:22:38

DestinyCall wrote:

It is always daytime, our houses have no roofs, and every village keeps wooden stakes around, just in case. We solved our vampire problem long ago.

... Just as they'd want you to believe.
Don't trust the movies. Real vampires don't die from sunlight, and I recommend you use real weapons instead of sticks.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-25 21:30:59

Roblor wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
It is always daytime, our houses have no roofs, and every village keeps wooden stakes around, just in case. We solved our vampire problem long ago.
... Just as they'd want you to believe.
Don't trust the movies. Real vampires don't die from sunlight, and I recommend you use real weapons instead of sticks.

Ah, so the truth comes out. Griefers are secretly vampires, hiding among the normal townspeople. No wonder they keep stabbing people. Gotta get at that sweet sweet red stuff any way they can.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-26 00:09:28

jasonrohrer wrote:

There are so many people on here, who in the past have said, "Just remove murder." I hope I've hammered that point home enough that it's just a straw man at this point. But I'm bringing it up to highlight that it's not a simple problem with a simple solution.

Well it certainly isn't clear whether you want people to play for the sake of their lineage at this point in time. You say you want people to play for their lineages, then when they don't, you just shrug your shoulders and call playing for their lineage boring.

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's kinda reminds me of the Halting Problem from theoretical computer science. You can't write a computer program that analyzes another computer program and tells you with certainty whether it exits correctly or gets into an infinite loop. Why? If someone handed you such a loop-detection program, you could embed it in your own program, run it on yourself, and then do the opposite of what the program says you will do. Thus, such a program cannot exist. The problem comes from the ability of computer programs to run other computer programs, including themselves.

No, the halting probelm does not rule the existence of decideable computer programs. In words such a program as you describe can exist. There do exist theorems proved about programs. The halting problem concerns an arbitrary computer program. In other words, not all programs are decideable.

I agree that not all OHOL griefing could get stopped. But, it could get reduced by game design.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-04-25 15:35:35

Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#2 2019-04-25 15:40:05

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#3 2019-04-25 15:42:37

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#4 2019-04-25 15:43:34

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#5 2019-04-25 15:47:05

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#6 2019-04-25 15:48:00

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#7 2019-04-25 15:50:02

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#8 2019-04-25 16:03:20

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#9 2019-04-25 16:16:33

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#10 2019-04-25 16:18:58

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#11 2019-04-25 16:28:54

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#12 2019-04-25 16:32:25

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#13 2019-04-25 16:34:54

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#14 2019-04-25 16:36:42

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#15 2019-04-25 16:48:55

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#16 2019-04-25 18:38:51

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#17 2019-04-25 18:51:18

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#18 2019-04-25 19:25:49

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#19 2019-04-25 19:37:32

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#20 2019-04-25 19:43:12

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#21 2019-04-25 20:15:04

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#22 2019-04-25 20:28:52

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#23 2019-04-25 21:22:38

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#24 2019-04-25 21:30:59

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#25 2019-04-26 00:09:28

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

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