You wanna know what *actually* needs to be added to this game?

Stylingirl · 2019-04-26 04:42:59

I posted a short reply to Jason's resource contention thread but I've decided to further those ideas and expand on my earlier suggestions on how and why they will improve the game and incorporate more variety, trading, and entertainment. Please, for the love of god don't quote this entire post.
TL;DR will be written under each paragraph.

Bigger biomes that each have their own unique resources while also being viable individually so there is no immediate need to settle on the border of biomes. Things like food, water, lumber, and soil should be available in at least one way. The exceptions would be the desert and tundra biomes, which would not have enough viable resources to survive favorably. Biome sizes would need to be increased to, at the minimum, 2,250,000 square tiles. This measurement is based on the fact that it takes the average player from their childhood to death of old age to travel approximately 7 thousand tiles on foot, and this is 1,500x1,500. So it wouldn't be impossible to find other biomes, but it would take a good chunk of one's life depending on the distance and direction they head. Although increasing it even further might be better, I believe the minimum is a good place to start. The Eve spawn circle in my opinion should also be decreased a bit to encourage village roads.
TL;DR Bigger biomes, more resources in each biome, smaller Eve spawn circle

The next thing I suggest is adding another biome, specifically a Taiga/Forest biome. This is a basic guide for what I believe could be added to each biomes (including taiga) to make them viable if the biomes become a lot bigger.
Note: This is only what could be added, this does not include resources that already exist within the game or any of the other dozen possibilities that could be added in lieu of these.
TL;DR Add Taiga biome

Tundra ------ Taiga ------ Grassland ------ Prairie ------ Badlands ------ Desert ------ Jungle ------ Swamp ------
Animals: Lumber: Water: Water: Starting Food: Lumber: Crops: Starting foods:
Snow goose White Pine Vernal pool Prairie pothole Wild onion Date palm Peanuts Wild asparagus
Yak Hazelnut Radish Cocoa Cranberry
Snow rabbit Juniper Animals: Predator: Crops: Coffee
Yew Deer Coyote Crops: Dates Crops:
Predator: Jack rabbit Potato Millet Water: Rice
Arctic Wolf Starting Food: Other: Mustard Watering hole Cranberry
Cattail Predator: Poor soil deposit Other: Mint
Hazelnut Coyote Other: Sandy soil deposit
Plantain Wolf Rocky soil deposit

Crops:
Lingonberry

Water:
Bog

Animals:
Reindeer
Rabbit
Elk
Salmon

Predator:
Bear
Wolf

Other:
Tarry spot
Poor soil deposit

TL;DR List of things to be added in each biome to make them viable for survival

Examples of biome exclusive recipes could be that things like food, clothes, weapons, buildings, and storage could be different looking based on the materials it was made out of despite being in the same category. I believe if they share similar themes in design and colors per biome, it will create a consistent identity within the town's culture. Any sort of creation of sculpture, paintings, music, etc that can also be diversified would solidify the culture.
TL;DR Biome exclusive recipes and biome variants to create individual cultures

Advanced recipes that would require resource collection from multiple biomes would encourage travel while also preventing people from straight up abandoning their villages since they cannot guarantee the same resources they find at home would be as available wherever they may end up.
TL;DR Complex recipes that need multiple biome resources encourages travel

This is a list of suggested materials that can be found and grown in their respective biomes to help ease the dreaded rope and thread bottleneck. Some of these materials require multiple steps or tools so they will not necessarily be more preferable to milkweed or wool.

Cloth-----------
Cotton - Grassland
Flax - Taiga
Ramie - Jungle
Silk - Jungle
Leather - Prairie
Wool - Badlands
Fur - Various animals

Rope------------
Sisal - Desert
Cotton - Grassland
Flax - Taiga
Jute - Jungle
leather - Prairie
Milkweed - Grassland

Thread---------
Silk - Jungle
Cotton - Grassland
Wool - Badlands
Flax - Taiga
Jute - Jungle
Milkweed - Grassland

TL;DR List of different types of materials that could be added to each biome

We also need multiple ways to create clay. Whether by evaporating mud, digging up rocks, sifting through water, any of the multiple ways that we create clay in real life besides digging it up from deposits would help establish towns in different biomes and create renewable sources of clay. This would also open up new recipes that could be created more easily with a more steady source of clay like bricks, toys, tiles, or pottery.
TL;DR More clay, renewable clay, more clay recipes

Storage is also a big problem within the game. We need more ways to hold items in a smaller area. Things like shelves, jute sacks, clay pots, wooden barrels, glass jars, granaries, closets, different types of carts, backpacks, baskets, etc. There are so many ways we can save space yet it's currently rare for towns to have organized stations because there is random clutter everywhere with nowhere to put it due to limited options to make and limited resources to create them.
TL;DR More storage to decrease clutter

Paper needs a big rework as well. No one uses it because nobody wants to run around spending twenty minutes looking for extra branches and crafting pages so they can write three sentences. We need a real UI system that allows players to write more characters besides their age. I believe the writing limit should be the same as the reading limit, we don't gradually gain the ability to write slightly longer sentences as we get older. Having real UI that allows for multiple sentences would encourage law creation, history records, and preservation of village traditions and stories.
TL;DR Paper rework

I believe maps should also be available to us. With similar UI, I would suggest players have the ability to mark way points, label locations, and draw borders on maps. But I do believe they should be made in a fog of war style where as the player explores, more of the map is exposed. Maps should also be able to be copied and combined with other maps. This would encourage a lot more exploration, outpost building, village discovery, and easier resource collection. There is only so much information that can be handed down with word of mouth or by a few pieces of paper and I feel that maps would help villages expand since they have a more solid idea of what if surrounding them.
TL;DR Add maps

Random chances will greatly benefit multiple aspects of life. One of the more obvious opportunities is combining all minerals, metals, and dyes into one mine shaft which can be found in nearly any biome. Each biome would have greater chances of spawning certain things like gold, dyes, or iron compared to others which would create a surplus of specific minerals that would encourage trade between villages of different biomes. Crops could also have chances of failing, growing less or more crops based on things like what biome they are planted in and the quality of soil. This would also randomly create food surpluses (good for trade) or famines which could spark conflict, more interaction with neighboring villages, or flat out pillaging and war. Other things like animals and trees could be affected too, like rate of growth, resources produced, speed of animals, etc.
TL;DR Random chance creates unique situations, better chances in specific biomes

Another interesting mechanic that could be added is sickness and plague. Depending on specific circumstances, a player could randomly become sick or catch the plague and also randomly pass it on to other players. They could have random chances of surviving the more deadly diseases and utilize their disease immunity to help treat other sick players in order to protect healthy players. Players could also use property fence to their advantages in these situations to either keep the sick locked up or lock themselves away until the plague has passed. Using proximity could also be a factor, where catching a sickness may affect players more often and have higher chances of dying the farther away the sickness was contracted, to simulate the passing of unfamiliar diseases from one country to the next in the real world. This would be a deterrent to players abandoning their villages or moving somewhere else unless they were constantly moving around their whole lives like nomads.
TL;DR Plague encourages staying in village, use of property fence, need for more care

Buildings are another thing that need to be expanded on in order to create game experience diversity. We need multiple types of buildings, like wood, log, sandstone, concrete, brick, etc. Paints should also be expanded to more colors and be able to paint more than one wall with one bucket of paint.
TL;DR More building types, less expensive paint in more colors

Fire making has always been a pain because again, there is only one way to currently make it. I think other methods like flint and steel, fire ploughs, glass lenses, or hand drills should be options to start big fires. Other ways to keep fires going longer like furnaces or fireplaces could be made to solidify the main fire's position in town and cut down on firewood consumption in the long run.
TL;DR Extra ways to start fires

Currently there are a lot of ingredients (eggs, beans, pork, peppers, tomatoes) that are spread everywhere and can't be thrown away or used as much as they are produced that just clutter villages. So I suggest different uses for these extra ingredients or just straight up letting them decay or rot. We could dry, salt, pickle, or smoke extra ingredients to preserve them from decay or so that we can eat them on their own without needing to cook them all right away which would save space by letting the surplus decay or become edible after one step compared to cooking.
TL;DR Decaying excess ingredients and preserving them to eat them by themselves

We also need better ways to write on signs. Using things like charcoal pencils or ink on signs and letting us be able to type whatever we need would help establish more organization faster. While not as expensive as letter stock, it could also be less permanent, smudging away or disappearing if no one bothers to upkeep the writing.
TL;DR Cheaper writing on signs

We also need a real system of restraining criminals besides murdering them as we all know, death only invites more death. Innocent people get killed in murder chains while trying to stop the real griefer so I believe some sort of restraint system should be in place. Whether handcuffs, ropes, needing two people to restrain them properly, anything that would stop a player in their tracks and be able to be moved by other players. This would mean players might display criminals in the middle of town for humiliation and curse collection, throw them into jail, or hold a trial to determine whether or not they deserve the death penalty could all be real situations that in my opinion are better than having to kill someone to prevent them from annoying you and messing up your town.
TL;DR Real ways to restrain and transport criminals besides murder

I honestly have no idea how this one will turn out, but currency. You can only churn out so many sweaters to trade for bread before the next village over decides they no longer need anymore sweaters and you're stuck starving with a dozen sweaters. Giving players one, if not multiple ways to create coins and paper bills and letting them decide their worth would help trading. Although I would also encourage not using gold in the process of creating money, you would have to leave it up to players whether or not to adopt the gold standard and how much money is needed to print. Printing and minting should be somewhat difficult but players should also be able to destroy money (a money sink) to combat hyperinflation if needed. Depending on how players adjust to the new economic system, I would also suggest creating new minerals or gems that is next to useless but still somewhat rare so players have something other than gold to equate currency to. For example, trading in rubies or emeralds for money instead of gold since gold is used in crafting and players would not have a lot of it. This could help ease the system and give players reasons to hoard gems and gold in banks and homes and use currency in day to day trading while also having a common anchor to exchange currency with (3 gray coins is worth 1 gold and 6 brown coins is worth 1 gold, so 3 gray coins = 6 brown coins). I can guarantee if this is implemented, there will be huge growing pains as not every player would probably understand the inter-workings of economics and might not want to give up their cushy communist ways. I think this should be implemented last out of all the other suggestions because the game currently doesn't have the right resources to sustain this level of change.
TL;DR Currency helps trading with something other than physical goods and helps simulate real world economics

Please feel free to comment on the ideas or add your own that you think would improve the core mechanics of the game!

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-26 05:05:57

That's a huge list of stuff...

In general, a "full overhaul of everything" in attempt to solve one specific problem isn't my design approach. Most solutions don't work, so solutions need to be cheap to try and iterate on. I could spend a year doing this stuff, and then find that people still aren't trading, and then what? Maybe the game would be better in other ways for the effort, but the fundamental problem would still stand.

I like little clever solutions instead. Like fences, which can be added one week, and torn out the following week if they don't work at all.

I question the fundamental idea of "bigger biomes" being the thing that will lead to interesting player interactions.

Yes, I agree that more variety would, in general, make the game more interesting.

However, traveling long distances is not interesting, nor is wandering for miles in every direction and seeing the same biome endlessly.

I also don't see how it will encourage trade. Trade requires SOMEONE having something that you don't have, not some distant area having something that you don't have in your local area. I guess that would encourage long-distance travel and prospecting to bring stuff back from far away. But not necessarily interacting with the people over there, because you'd never find them.

This brings up another idea, which I will post in another thread and link here.

Stylingirl · 2019-04-26 05:16:33

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yes, I agree that more variety would, in general, make the game more interesting.
However, traveling long distances is not interesting, nor is wandering for miles in every direction and seeing the same biome endlessly.
I also don't see how it will encourage trade. Trade requires SOMEONE having something that you don't have, not some distant area having something that you don't have in your local area. I guess that would encourage long-distance travel and prospecting to bring stuff back from far away. But not necessarily interacting with the people over there, because you'd never find them.

Long distances would be more interesting if there was something in between, like outposts and specific resource points like mines that would attract players and having the ability to know what lies ahead, like having a map that would show you where things are, and how far the closest village is. Being about 1.5k by 1.5k, it would take almost 11 minutes for a person walking on foot to cross an entire biome. Add extra factors like being closer to biome borders, having roads and/or transportation, and suddenly travelling isn't as daunting and more exciting when you find a new biome or village to mark on your map.

People never find anyone anyways, and when they do, the location is poorly shared by mouth until no one remembers the location. No one really bothers anyways because that village is going to be the same as their home village, and if anything they'd walk there out of sheer boredom. If every biome and all resources are so close together, even if villages were closer, you wouldn't need to trade with the neighboring village because no one has something that you don't have. They have the same tasting food, same looking clothes, same technology, same looking animals, same buildings, they have the same opportunity that you have to obtain whatever they need.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-26 05:17:28

I think fully viable huge biomes is not the way to go, too complex, too constraining too. But definitely would be better than it is if we tried spicing up early techtrees for some biomes.

Bigger biomes is good, but not too big as to have combinations made unviable. Combos are great sources of variation.

Stylingirl · 2019-04-26 05:20:45

Booklat1 wrote:

I think fully viable huge biomes is not the way to go, too complex, too constraining too. But definitely would be better than it is if we tried spicing up early techtrees for some biomes.
Bigger biomes is good, but not too big as to have combinations made unviable. Combos are great sources of variation.

2 million squared does seem like a lot at first but if you remember that its only about 1,500 tiles across, you can see how it hits a nice middle ground of being big, but not to the point it being impossible to find other biomes. Plus that's why I suggested adding extra resources into each biome so they each become more viable by themselves without needing to settle on biome borders to survive.

futurebird · 2019-04-26 05:27:45

I don't really like huge biomes. I know a lot of people do, but we had those in minecraft and they were so TEDIOUS. I don't think that not having enough early tech is what prevents trade. I think it's server population and the fact that towns never get enough people that they have people management issues that would make trade and currency needed.

I do think that adding some currency like item, coins whatever to the game might spark people to use it as money, as long as it isn't infinite, and has a few unique uses, won't decay and can be carried in bulk without taking up multiple spots people might use it. We don't use iron that way because it's too bulky. Something small that you could carry 1 of or 20 of in a single slot in your backpack...

But even if you add such an item, as long as most games are interactions with fewer than 10 people trade isn't really needed. I know if they work hard or not. I know if I want to share or not because I know everyone and the opportunity cost in time for trade and accounting just isn't worth it.

If a lazy, mean player who hasn't been helping asks me to make them a shovel I'm like "I'm busy" if the kid who brought me kindling or the woman who cares for the sheep asks I'm on my toes making the shovel as fast as I can. That is a soft kind of trade.

futurebird · 2019-04-26 05:30:15

I want to add that I would totally enjoy these changes. I like the way you have presented it and thought about parallel paths. It's neat and should stay on the game play bucket list, it would be neat to have more paths in the early tech tree and some of these ideas just sound FUN. (except the big biomes... but that might just be me) So, I like this but I don't think it's the answer to the question "why no trade and so little social complexity?"

Stylingirl · 2019-04-26 15:55:18

Another suggestion I heard on the discord would be making specific biomes more rare than others to increase the scarcity and demand.

I'd also like to add that I don't expect all of these changes to be considered equally or be simply implemented within an update or two. I realize that there are a lot of changes but I still stand by my belief that these are what the game needs. Even if they need to be added one at a time week by week, if this game ever wants to progress farther than people farming and sharing everything equally in tiny, unorganized, cluttered villages then I really think my suggestions need to be given more serious consideration. These are big changes and if Jason asks us for help I think we all would be more than willing to help in any way we could from sprites, to play testing, to checking code.

Sukallinen · 2019-04-26 15:55:54

Only adding bit of map-creation tweak and three items idea SOLVES: TRADE, MAPPING

Biomes stay as they currently are, but are generated in, say, 500x500 "tiles" (or w/e size).

Each "tile" has every biome game currently has. Each of these "tiles" has one special-resource containing area (say, one desert has like oilwell-kind-of-thing: for example desert so no need to check every tile on that "tile" of all biomes).

Two items needed to create, say, (whatever) printing press. Say, ink and special clay for letters (yeah bad example). Extracted by kind of oilwell, adding pipe gives couple more "special items". So one cannot just walk and collect both items easily. And add special items later on is easy...

Map: some pole (from tree branch), can show the 8 directions and contain one sentence, plantable and can be cut down with axe. Like, "This way to next horse fence 11 (screens)", next to it plant a pole "will guide town having INK 25".

This wouldn't change gameplay as we know it, no need to rebalance or create lots of items etc etc... Fast'n kind of dirty fix.

Last edited by Sukallinen (2019-04-26 16:00:20)

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#1 2019-04-26 04:42:59