Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

antking:]# · 2019-05-10 01:46:02

futurebird wrote:

*wedding bells*
*tosses rice*
*coughs loudly*

why are you wasting rice? and I have cough drops in the cupboard if you need them... see you in bell town!

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-10 02:44:18

Left4twenty, I didn't spend two days on the language filter for nothing. Give me more credit than that.

The filter is bidirectional (a two-way mapping).

Which means that if you know "bo" means rock, and you say "give me bo", the will see "harg vo rock"

Furthermore, there is a parameter which controls how "far" the language filter pushes out into the realm of different occurrence frequencies. For example, if the parameter is low, then "a" will map to "e" but not "iou", which is way less common than "a" or "e" ("iou" might map to "aie" or something similarly less common). This is essentially a "whackiness" parameter, and controls how "unlike English" the resulting language becomes.

Examples:

Param = 1

the layout of your village is very interesting
=>
spo fiyeant etch yios tralmight ar trosui ansososvan

Param = 2

the layout of your village is very interesting
=>
ply liyear ootch phiat gilmoght uw gyse unwysysrin

Param = 4

the layout of your village is very interesting
=>
yu doyeur elled thiet stualhyx ul stusa unvusutbuad

Param = 8

the layout of your village is very interesting
=>
plya paouxe azed huic vulpuaght ount vyamoy ounpyamyathud

Param = 16

the layout of your village is very interesting
=>
gue buayng iench yood nuokduade eunt nuezzea eunpuezzuerruot

Param = 100

the layout of your village is very interesting
=>
broi wrueect eoune sclooegn svaeonheyph uyefe svoirrya uyegoirroisqaeotts

Note that as the param gets higher, the translations get longer.

This is because MOST consonant and vowel clusters are long and infrequently used. Very few of them are very short, by comparisson, and they are the most common.

This parameter says, "When mapping cluster C, how many similar-frequency clusters do we consider?" Param 1 only considers the one closest-frequency cluster to C.

Param 100 considers the 100 closest-frequency clusters, which means that even if C is very frequent (and thus likely short), it is very likely to map to a longer cluster, when we consider that big of a pool of candidates.

But you can see in the P100 case, "v", a very common start-of-word consonant cluster, is getting mapped to "sv," and extremely uncommon start-of-word consonant cluster.

Where in the P1 case, "v" is mapped to "tr", which has a much more similar frequency to "v."

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-10 02:55:14

Also, not that for P100, the following mapping also holds:

broi wrueect eoune sclooegn svaeonheyph uyefe svoirrya uyegoirroisqaeotts
=>
the layout of your village is very interesting

I.e., feeding what looks like total nonsense into the front end of the filter gets english back out.

Left4twenty · 2019-05-10 02:57:39

So there will be more than two languages? You've definately made it fancier than expected. Seems interesting now, even if there are some things that are tripping points, like radios being more difficult(on the other hand, morse is universally understood), and signs being written in a universally shared language (maybe you have a plan for that?). I'm interested to hear how my bo equals rock example works out if there are three parties with independant languages instead of two
Ps almost forgot name preservation (names arent really subject to syllable changes by language. In german the pronounciation is still "left" even if the german syllables for the orientation "left" are different)

Last edited by Left4twenty (2019-05-10 03:05:11)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-10 03:03:01

Another cool thing:

P = 1

is iss ish ist isp ism isc isk
=>
ar ast and ass arg all asz ague

I.e., it's not just mapping individual letters, but clusters of consonants and vowels. Which gives us cool word-root preservation, like this:

P = 1

organism organist organize organelle organize organic orgasm
=>
erhimall erhimass erhimact erhimogh erhimact erhimate erhill

But even in full whacky mode, roots are preserved:

P = 100

organism organist organize organelle organize organic orgasm
=>
eouwdeywzaeorst eouwdeywzaeoll eouwdeywzaeoss eouwdeywzoirtz eouwdeywzaeoss eouwdeywzaeop eouwdeyrst

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-10 03:19:30

Signs I will have to leave alone for now.

I also play to leave the written word, generally, alone. So you can use writing to help teach people languages.

And yes, the plan is to have one brand new language for each new Eve, shared by all her descendants.

In order for the two-way communication to work, though, I'm pretty sure that I need pairwise filters between each logical language.

Say we have three Eves, call them Alice, Betty, and Cindy.

First, we have function F which maps what Alice says to what Betty hears. Since it's two-way, the same one must map what Betty says to what Alice hears (so that if Betty mimics Alice's language, it will show up as English for Alice----the truth, here, is that Alice doesn't actually understand her own language, and never sees it the way Betty sees it).

So, Alice and Betty actually speak the same made-up language to each other. When Alice says "village" Betty hears "tralmight." And when Betty says "village," Alice hears "tralmight" as well. If either actually says "tralmight," the other will hear "village"

Now consider Betty and Cindy. We have a different function G that maps what they say, bidirectionally. For them, "village" is read as "gilmoght" when speaking to each other.

Finally, we have function H that maps between Alice and Cindy. For them, "village" is read as "stualhyx"

Now, something strange happens when Cindy overhears Alice and Betty talking.

If Alice says "village," Cindy of course hears "stualhyx" But if Betty says "village," Cindy hears "gilmoght" So far, so good. Cindy hears Alice speaking a different language from Betty, which is cool.

But let's say Alice learns the Alice-Betty language and says "tralmight". Cindy now hears the Alice-Cindy H translation of that, or "chylpuars". And if Betty says "tralmight", Cindy hears that through the Betty-Cindy filter G, and hears "chollige"

So, though Alice and Betty may be conversing and understanding each other, the creole that they're speaking together will not be intelligible to Cindy

It's like a German guy who knows English not being able to understand the French guy when he speaks English with a French accent.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-10 03:25:47

The other option is to have ONE two way filter for everyone.

Inside your family, you hear English, but all outsiders seem to speak the same language. This other language is the lingua-franca of the land, and in order to communicate to them, you need to start using that. Maybe that language would only reset weekly.

But I think this is slightly less interesting than each separate group appearing to speak different languages, and languages rising and falling over time. A language dies when a people dies out, etc.

Left4twenty · 2019-05-10 03:34:34

I far prefer the system of each lineage developing a unique language, than an enforced creole. Language only developes through the interaction of people, and forcing a hand is taking away an opportunity from players for some intriguing interaction. Tribes learning to communicate with each other could be a fun experience. As far as a third party not being immediately in the loop, it also makes some sense. Alone with either of the others, the barrier would be smaller, but the more people are added, the more a game of telephone is being played, possibly to a wacky end

Last edited by Left4twenty (2019-05-10 03:34:58)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-10 03:38:20

Yes, and you could translate between two third parties.

If Alice and Betty both know your language, but don't know each other's, they could both talk to you, and you could pass messages between them.

Amon · 2019-05-10 08:39:59

I absolutely love this and the cross translation-shuffles are great... but.

Talking does take quite a few minutes to perform, it get's worse if you don't even understand eachother.
A few minutes in a life is not enough to propperly learn what word is what and then having to continously map again each hour what one barely learned beforehand.
If you really wanted to get down to the grits, you'll be learning some key words for a few minutes, and then you'll have (and childcaring is astronomically low innOHOL) to spend minutes teaching the keys to your children, probably each individually.
Though cross family lineages are fun, they are rare, most people would want them to be more common. This might more so discourage it.

But hey it's worth a try, im just speculating the worst.

I do think this has a better place in a game where it's not a matter of minutes, ie pvp world of warfract. You see gibberish, but you can actually learn to understand them and people found loopholes on how to speak back.

Last edited by Amon (2019-05-10 08:41:57)

Potjeh · 2019-05-10 10:24:30

Personally I'm just gonna stop talking in the game altogether.

Psykout · 2019-05-10 13:43:29

A feature such as this would be amazing in a game that didn't bounce you around every hour. My personal feelings are that there isn't enough time in one spot to care about wanting to trade, war, learn a language etc. If it was regional, all eves that spawn in X tiles of each other speak a param, then maybe. But then we will come back to the fact that the map generation doesn't support trade because resources are close together, and that there is poor long distance traveling. This is amazing work, but one that would fit better in MMORPG that had more permanence than OHOL.

Water balancing still feels off, either there are 15 ponds nearby or you are rushing newcommen as eve, cold biome buildings have little value, SIDS epidemics, we can make engines but can't make a god damn box that holds more than 4 things, there is a lot of things on the plate that could use attention, and we are now dreaming about dessert.

ryanb · 2019-05-10 16:42:58

The language looks awesome Jason, but won't it increase the isolation between families? Why visit a bell tower if you can't communicate with anyone?

What if the more you heard a language the more you understood it? Where you learn a certain percentage of words with every word you hear spoken. This would encourage communication more than discourage it. Perhaps you learn shorter words first. Also children could inherit their parents knowledge of other languages.

This way we could have villages where multiple families live together but only understand each other fully after generations.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-11 00:52:22

This update brings all families together, within 100 tiles of each other.

Language and a few other things added this week are my attempt to not have it just be one big melting pot. I'll be working on this more in the future.

The languages remain stable all week, as long as the families stay alive, so it is possible to get born back in the same town, and get to know the neighbors better in each life.

Finally, writing and signs remain in English for now, and so is radio. Thus makes these things more crucial for trade.

Names are also in English now, but I plan to fix that next week.

Anyway, pretty much everything has been leading up to this moment where families can be brought back close together (it's been more than a year since the Eve Spiral was added).

Property fences, spring heads, etc.

So I'm pulling the rip-cord this week, and we'll see what happens.... it's gonna be crazy.... a totally different game.

lychee · 2019-05-11 01:03:34

jasonrohrer wrote:

So I'm pulling the rip-cord this week, and we'll see what happens.... it's gonna be crazy.... a totally different game.

Thanks for your hard work! Curious to see how this turns out!

BladeWoods · 2019-05-11 03:39:01

What's going on with the sword???

Is it impossible to give gate ownership to another family?

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-05-11 03:40:51)

spurofthemoment · 2019-05-11 03:53:22

No lie, when I first read about this update I thought I was gonna hate it...but now I've played a bit with it, I love it. It really adds flavor to the world! I'm gonna make it my new goal to learn how to cross language barriers...once I stop starving at young age, lol.

(It's been a tough time surviving in this new update. Think I just got bad luck. First highly populated town I spawned in sacrificed me; rest has been Eves in barren locations or new settlements in the same boat. lol.)

MisterMute · 2019-08-08 06:24:51

How do we actually use this? I'm probably being dumb, but as of right now I'm only seeing numbers and letters.. I'm looking for like bo = rock or something? IHow do I use this info and actually apply this ingame? How do I read 2123 goad, and be like oh this translates to ooga or something?

Last edited by MisterMute (2019-08-08 06:39:37)

WalrusesConquer · 2019-08-08 11:39:41

Not sure what you mean as I think it's impossible to see numbers at the moment. Ingame it looks like gibberish and if you are six and haven't been exposed to it early on it will ALWAYS look like that when people speak.
You may see LOIRT instead of PEACE
However
If you had been exposed to it as a baby (say someone from another family kept talking to you as a kid that can evolves to
LEACT
Then eventually
PEACE

(Not sure that was clear or not my bad)

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-08-08 13:40:27

UNGA BUNGA.

Families die out too fast to learn their language.

sigmen4020 · 2019-08-08 13:47:22

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

UNGA BUNGA.
Families die out too fast to learn their language.

Yeah, war swords and language were just made for each other in the same update. They fit as well together as butter on toast. /s

MistressZues · 2019-08-08 14:15:23

futurebird wrote:

*wedding bells*
*tosses rice*
*coughs loudly*

Scrap the new language idea even if just for a few weeks, implement a marriage system!!

ollj · 2019-08-09 23:06:57

use sword on vocal

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#26 2019-05-10 01:46:02

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#27 2019-05-10 02:44:18

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#28 2019-05-10 02:55:14

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#29 2019-05-10 02:57:39

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#30 2019-05-10 03:03:01

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#31 2019-05-10 03:19:30

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#32 2019-05-10 03:25:47

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#33 2019-05-10 03:34:34

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#34 2019-05-10 03:38:20

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#35 2019-05-10 08:39:59

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#36 2019-05-10 10:24:30

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#37 2019-05-10 13:43:29

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#38 2019-05-10 16:42:58

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#39 2019-05-11 00:52:22

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#40 2019-05-11 01:03:34

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#41 2019-05-11 03:39:01

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#42 2019-05-11 03:53:22

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#43 2019-08-08 06:24:51

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#44 2019-08-08 11:39:41

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#45 2019-08-08 13:40:27

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

#46 2019-08-08 13:47:22

Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

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Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

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Re: Consonant and vowel clusters in the English language

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