Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-11 17:54:35

Spoonwood wrote:

Jason comes as the person who has said that he wants people to play for their lineages. Do I need to dig up quotes for you? It's on record on the forums. Here you go:
JasonRohrer wrote:
As I've said many times, I want your decisions in the game to matter, at all levels. I want running a successful village to be hard, and I want you to care enough to get good at handling that challenge. I want town leadership to be necessary, because the challenge is so difficult, and I want disagreements and politics to unfold around that leadership. I want the survival of your family to really matter to you.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6087
If you think that this update is consistent with people playing for their families, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Well, I personally believe you could make an argument for it, but that's not what I was pointing out. I was pointing out your saying that he isn't trying his best. And your reason apparently being, "because he hasn't made the changes me and some other people have told him to"

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 17:55:28

RedComb wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
Nope, I'm not buying it. Jason has done nothing about the lineage ban in spite of people informing him that it would persuaded people to play more for their families. Also, it requires a bucket of water to make a sword, something that only griefers will do. He knows that water makes for a serious issues.
"Oh, Jason isn't just mindlessly bending to the will of a vocal minority telling him how his game should be made/how I think his game should be made, therefore he isn't really trying". I mean, you've said a lot of stupid shit, but this one I actually feel obligated to comment on. Really not a good look.
Throwing quotation marks around your own version of what somebody said is literally putting words into another person's mouth. That is really not a good look.
Also, characterizing critics as people who are "blinded by ignorance" (and setting yourself apart from them) is questionable.
Genuine criticism is vitally important to a dev improving both themselves and their game.
What's more, downplaying the concerns of others by telling a dev that they are great only drowns out what might be really useful feedback.
See: On getting criticism (Raph Koster)
(FYI: Raph Koster was the lead designer on the grand daddy of all MMORPG's, Ultima Online, as well as Star War Galaxies, pre-NGE)

I agree and I appreciate that you've said this, and thank you.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-11 17:57:06

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
In terms of "trying my best," I probably put in 11 hours of non-stop programming for three days in a row to make all the code changes that were necessary to make this update happen.
So what? That doesn't mean you've thought one bit about how such changes will encourage or discourage people to play for their lineage's survival.

While I'll give you that it doesn't say anything about him thinking about the changes he will make (which I believe he does), it does make it very clear that he is putting in a (in my opinion) considerable amount of effort.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-11 17:58:26

Spoonwood wrote:

RedComb wrote:
FeignedSanity wrote:
"Oh, Jason isn't just mindlessly bending to the will of a vocal minority telling him how his game should be made/how I think his game should be made, therefore he isn't really trying". I mean, you've said a lot of stupid shit, but this one I actually feel obligated to comment on. Really not a good look.
Throwing quotation marks around your own version of what somebody said is literally putting words into another person's mouth. That is really not a good look.
Also, characterizing critics as people who are "blinded by ignorance" (and setting yourself apart from them) is questionable.
Genuine criticism is vitally important to a dev improving both themselves and their game.
What's more, downplaying the concerns of others by telling a dev that they are great only drowns out what might be really useful feedback.
See: On getting criticism (Raph Koster)
(FYI: Raph Koster was the lead designer on the grand daddy of all MMORPG's, Ultima Online, as well as Star War Galaxies, pre-NGE)
I agree and I appreciate that you've said this, and thank you.

Did you not read his follow up message where he admits to being mistaken?...I'm starting to genuinely feel concern for you.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 18:09:19

FeignedSanity wrote:

Yes, everyone can agree that criticism is invaluable. But just saying that someone isn't trying because they're not doing exactly what you want them to do is just being a dick head. You can say that their labor probably wont provide fruit. You can even say that they are working against themselves. But you can't say someone isn't working, or trying, unless there is a lack of effort.

If the only thing that Jason refused to change the lineage ban, I'd just dismiss that and accept that he has a real desire for people to play for their lineages. However, he wants war and causalities to the family to occur apparently, because causalities inevitably happen in war (and it's never just the men that die, it's not that simple), and well everyone knows that. That is completely inconsistent with people playing for their lineages, at least for any group going on the offensive. You have NOT provided any argument as to how war could increase a lineage's length. Nor has Jason. And war will kill off fertile women. So, bottom line, my point about this update NOT working out to encourage people to play for their lineages stand. And this seems easy to see a priori that this change makes things worse for people playing for their lineages. Property fences did so also. The problem there isn't that Jason didn't anticipate them not working out, but more that Jason somehow seems to think them useful when they just end up as a tool of griefers, idiot's, or people who could care less about their lineages. The radio updates and the car updates discouraged people from playing for their lineages. So do the apocalypse updates. The black gold update did until this natural spring update. If you seriously believe that Jason has a good track record of making updates that encourage people to play for their families, then look through the update history, and think about how many updates encourage people to play for their families, how many have no effect on people wanting to play for their families, and how many discourage people from playing for their family's survival. I've done that to some extent, and from what I can tell, it's not a good track record. This sword update is an abonination in trying to get people to want to play for their lineages.

WalrusesConquer · 2019-05-11 18:23:42

spurofthemoment wrote:

"In twin eves it was really interesting and funny since mainly the dependants are confused - not the eves" (Sorry I'm editing the post and don't know how to quote from here)
That's the main issue I have with the language update...language isn't inherited, but learned. Kids who grow up in the presence of two languages should be bilingual, not confused. That's probably ridiculously hard to code in though, so I'll forgive it.
To the people who don't like the update:
This is the point where I think it's becoming obvious that Jason has some sort of creative vision for the game that doesn't line up with some of the more vocal players' opinions. Personally, I've always thought killing is a super interesting part of the game because it messes up the status quo and allows for some cool rp, although I'm afraid to kill anyone myself because I don't want to end up in Donkey Town. Then again, I'm a theater nerd who's always been a fan of stuff like Hamlet and Macbeth, so of course I'm gonna like war and murderers as part of a survival game. Clearly, though, there are a lot of people who want to use it as sort of a building sandbox, which is great and all, but I'm not sure if that's where Jason wants to go with it.
The fact that there even ARE griefers who kill people for "rp shit" like making dresses as I saw someone say on another thread shows that some people really just want to build as much as efficiently as possible, which is great, but...I don't think that's where the game is going. This is a RP game at its heart, and I honestly think Jason wants that RP to include war and murder.
And as far as wasting resources goes...isn't the concept of this game to see how many generations it will take us to get to our current level of technology? Do you know how many resources we've wasted irl to get where we are today? How many people we've killed? How much we've destroyed? It's not pretty, but if we're gonna get in-game to where we are irl, we're gonna have to waste a crap ton of resources. That's just how it goes.
Then again, what the fans think is a crucial aspect of the game's success, so if most people are against it then Jason will have to figure something else out. Like FeignedSanity said, I think it's just a vocal minority who really hate it, but I could be wrong.
A poll would honestly be nice...that's a good way to get a lot of opinions at once.
And maybe there could be some sort of sandbox server where murder and war is impossible for those who just want to build.

Just thought to clarify:
The descendants learnt somw words but the confusion mainly stemmed that we all looked the same! They'd come up to me thinking I was their mum and visa versa!

honikker · 2019-05-11 19:01:13

Spoonwood wrote:

And war will kill off fertile women.

What responsible tribe would send their women into combat? What responsible tribe wouldn't protect or hide their women from invaders?

spurofthemoment · 2019-05-11 19:35:35

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Yes, this is a huge change to the game, so there are clearly some holes. They will be fixed over time. Some will be fixed today.
Nope. You won't fix the main hole, swords themselves. You simply won't remove swords or nerf them sufficiently to discourage war. And since you won't do that, you won't implement changes that encourage people to play for their lineages. See that post above from the person who mentions MacBeth and Hamlet who likes murder? That isn't someone who will feel inclined to play for his/her lineage.

As the mentioned theater nerd, I would like to point out that Macbeth and Hamlet are both plays that directly center around people deciding to murder each other in order to (a) promote their lineage or (b) stop a bad lineage from taking over. If I were to take part in a war, I'd probably rp the shit out of promoting my lineage.

That being said, you're not completely wrong...usually, I don't personally see the big deal about lineages so long as the town thrives and people are happy. What I really like is seeing towns go from small to big, no matter how many families are in them. With the new language update, my dream is to find or create a town with a whole bunch of different languages and have this big multicultural city feel.

@honikker, you underestimate the stealth of invaders...and of the women who will take up the combat when all the men die (or before that depending who's controlling them)...and of the starvation caused by siege...or the strongholds that become death traps a la Helms Deep...if there's war, anyone and everyone can die.

Last edited by spurofthemoment (2019-05-11 19:39:56)

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-11 19:45:33

Spoonwood wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
Yes, everyone can agree that criticism is invaluable. But just saying that someone isn't trying because they're not doing exactly what you want them to do is just being a dick head. You can say that their labor probably wont provide fruit. You can even say that they are working against themselves. But you can't say someone isn't working, or trying, unless there is a lack of effort.
If the only thing that Jason refused to change the lineage ban, I'd just dismiss that and accept that he has a real desire for people to play for their lineages. However, he wants war and causalities to the family to occur apparently, because causalities inevitably happen in war (and it's never just the men that die, it's not that simple), and well everyone knows that. That is completely inconsistent with people playing for their lineages, at least for any group going on the offensive. You have NOT provided any argument as to how war could increase a lineage's length. Nor has Jason. And war will kill off fertile women. So, bottom line, my point about this update NOT working out to encourage people to play for their lineages stand. And this seems easy to see a priori that this change makes things worse for people playing for their lineages. Property fences did so also. The problem there isn't that Jason didn't anticipate them not working out, but more that Jason somehow seems to think them useful when they just end up as a tool of griefers, idiot's, or people who could care less about their lineages. The radio updates and the car updates discouraged people from playing for their lineages. So do the apocalypse updates. The black gold update did until this natural spring update. If you seriously believe that Jason has a good track record of making updates that encourage people to play for their families, then look through the update history, and think about how many updates encourage people to play for their families, how many have no effect on people wanting to play for their families, and how many discourage people from playing for their family's survival. I've done that to some extent, and from what I can tell, it's not a good track record. This sword update is an abonination in trying to get people to want to play for their lineages.

Look, I'm done with this conversation. You are completely missing my argument.

And it's fine if you want to argue that this particular update doesn't encourage playing for your lineage, but bear in mind that this isn't his last update. There are many more to come that can encourage playing for your lineage and quite possibly use this update to do it.

Léonard · 2019-05-11 19:57:04

FeignedSanity wrote:

I think this game is marketed as a "paid alpha", which implies that the game is, very much, subject to change.

It's not really.
The game on steam isn't marked as "early access" or anything like it.

The trailer states that the goal of the game was to survive while taking a small part in helping rebuild civilization.
All the trailer states in the regard of "the game changing" is that Jason would "stay one step ahead" of us by adding new content.
Clearly to me this implied that he would add technological content. Stuff that would let us evolve and basically rebuild civilization.

What we get instead is Jason fulfilling only one part of the promise, that he keeps adding new content, but the whole idea of building civilization seems to have been swept completely under the rug.
The content instead depends entirely on Jason's mood and his current thirst for blood and petty, contrived drama.

RedComb wrote:

it seems people feel those who want this game to be a "sandbox building" type game are in a misguided minority, so when you said "vocal minority," it just pissed me off because I wasn't exactly sure who that was directed it.

The irony is I'm pretty certain that the people who often come and defend griefing in this game as some sort of fundamental part of it that makes it better are the vocal minority themselves.
I mean come on, did they ever watch its trailer?

The best part is I never see the same people who keep making this argument when I say the game isn't advertised as such. Jason included.

And don't get me wrong, it's not a completely black and white issue of course.
Conflict in the game should make sense of course.
But as Jason said himself, "griefers only kill for the fun of it, not for real stakes or anything".
Which I can get behind, but then he goes on and makes killing the most contrived thing in any game ever.
Why do we kill now? Because other lineages have the magical power to kill us en masse.
Yeah, talk about real stakes.

The fundamental problem with war was that lineages or towns didn't have any real cultures of their own.
Everyone everywhere was born the same and knew the same things. Hence no reason to prefer one over the other.
But instead of giving people the ability to create their own culture, Jason chose to restrict them with language barriers and magic killing rules.
Talk about building civilization, you mean destroy it.

Let's not even mention Jason's views on emergence. "We were born on this earth and all its resources, and form all of that naturally came properties, governments and laws".
In complete contrast with magical fences and killing rules.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-11 20:11:22

Léonard wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
I think this game is marketed as a "paid alpha", which implies that the game is, very much, subject to change.
It's not really.
The game on steam isn't marked as "early access" or anything like it.
The trailer states that the goal of the game was to survive while taking a small part in helping rebuild civilization.
All the trailer states in the regard of "the game changing" is that Jason would "stay one step ahead" of us by adding new content.
Clearly to me this implied that he would add technological content. Stuff that would let us evolve and basically rebuild civilization.
What we get instead is Jason fulfilling only one part of the promise, that he keeps adding new content, but the whole idea of building civilization seems to have been swept completely under the rug.
The content instead depends entirely on Jason's mood and his current thirst for blood and petty, contrived drama.

FeignedSanity wrote:

...subject to change. Maybe more emphasis should be made on this point.

FeignedSanity wrote:

Source here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riqu2eszsIg (at 2:27)

You left off two very important parts.

I have no idea how it's marked on steam; but like I said, I THOUGHT this game was marketed as a "paid alpha" (based on the source provided). It is quite possible that I was mistaken and it would appear as such.

However, I don't see how civilization building was swept under the rug. But I admit that it may not appear to be the main point at all times.

I still hold that this game should have more emphasis on the fact that the game is in a constant state of change, like a live service (or beta/alpha). Would alleviate a lot of the feeling of being mislead.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 20:35:55

spurofthemoment wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
Yes, this is a huge change to the game, so there are clearly some holes. They will be fixed over time. Some will be fixed today.
Nope. You won't fix the main hole, swords themselves. You simply won't remove swords or nerf them sufficiently to discourage war. And since you won't do that, you won't implement changes that encourage people to play for their lineages. See that post above from the person who mentions MacBeth and Hamlet who likes murder? That isn't someone who will feel inclined to play for his/her lineage.
As the mentioned theater nerd, I would like to point out that Macbeth and Hamlet are both plays that directly center around people deciding to murder each other in order to (a) promote their lineage or (b) stop a bad lineage from taking over. If I were to take part in a war, I'd probably rp the shit out of promoting my lineage.

Hamlet seriously contemplates suicide. Polonious gets stabbed on accident. Ophelia drowns herself. Hamlet gets killed too. Lady MacBeth dies apparently due to suicide. MacBeth gets beheaded in the end. I read both plays in high school and have just looked up the deaths in these plays. That's all it took. They're both tragedies. It doesn't work out for preserving their lineage no matter their intentions.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 20:40:12

FeignedSanity wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
FeignedSanity wrote:
Yes, everyone can agree that criticism is invaluable. But just saying that someone isn't trying because they're not doing exactly what you want them to do is just being a dick head. You can say that their labor probably wont provide fruit. You can even say that they are working against themselves. But you can't say someone isn't working, or trying, unless there is a lack of effort.
If the only thing that Jason refused to change the lineage ban, I'd just dismiss that and accept that he has a real desire for people to play for their lineages. However, he wants war and causalities to the family to occur apparently, because causalities inevitably happen in war (and it's never just the men that die, it's not that simple), and well everyone knows that. That is completely inconsistent with people playing for their lineages, at least for any group going on the offensive. You have NOT provided any argument as to how war could increase a lineage's length. Nor has Jason. And war will kill off fertile women. So, bottom line, my point about this update NOT working out to encourage people to play for their lineages stand. And this seems easy to see a priori that this change makes things worse for people playing for their lineages. Property fences did so also. The problem there isn't that Jason didn't anticipate them not working out, but more that Jason somehow seems to think them useful when they just end up as a tool of griefers, idiot's, or people who could care less about their lineages. The radio updates and the car updates discouraged people from playing for their lineages. So do the apocalypse updates. The black gold update did until this natural spring update. If you seriously believe that Jason has a good track record of making updates that encourage people to play for their families, then look through the update history, and think about how many updates encourage people to play for their families, how many have no effect on people wanting to play for their families, and how many discourage people from playing for their family's survival. I've done that to some extent, and from what I can tell, it's not a good track record. This sword update is an abonination in trying to get people to want to play for their lineages.
Look, I'm done with this conversation. You are completely missing my argument.
And it's fine if you want to argue that this particular update doesn't encourage playing for your lineage, but bear in mind that this isn't his last update. There are many more to come that can encourage playing for your lineage and quite possibly use this update to do it.

Yeah, yeah... you're 'done' because you don't have much to back up your argument. Honestly, people who say 'they are done' have this attitude that they have made everything clear and often have a position shot through of holes. It's why they run so quickly, because they feel afraid of their position not holding up to scrutiny.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 20:41:45

Léonard wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
I think this game is marketed as a "paid alpha", which implies that the game is, very much, subject to change.
It's not really.
The game on steam isn't marked as "early access" or anything like it.
The trailer states that the goal of the game was to survive while taking a small part in helping rebuild civilization.
All the trailer states in the regard of "the game changing" is that Jason would "stay one step ahead" of us by adding new content.
Clearly to me this implied that he would add technological content. Stuff that would let us evolve and basically rebuild civilization.
What we get instead is Jason fulfilling only one part of the promise, that he keeps adding new content, but the whole idea of building civilization seems to have been swept completely under the rug.
The content instead depends entirely on Jason's mood and his current thirst for blood and petty, contrived drama.
RedComb wrote:
it seems people feel those who want this game to be a "sandbox building" type game are in a misguided minority, so when you said "vocal minority," it just pissed me off because I wasn't exactly sure who that was directed it.
The irony is I'm pretty certain that the people who often come and defend griefing in this game as some sort of fundamental part of it that makes it better are the vocal minority themselves.
I mean come on, did they ever watch its trailer?
The best part is I never see the same people who keep making this argument when I say the game isn't advertised as such. Jason included.
And don't get me wrong, it's not a completely black and white issue of course.
Conflict in the game should make sense of course.
But as Jason said himself, "griefers only kill for the fun of it, not for real stakes or anything".
Which I can get behind, but then he goes on and makes killing the most contrived thing in any game ever.
Why do we kill now? Because other lineages have the magical power to kill us en masse.
Yeah, talk about real stakes.
The fundamental problem with war was that lineages or towns didn't have any real cultures of their own.
Everyone everywhere was born the same and knew the same things. Hence no reason to prefer one over the other.
But instead of giving people the ability to create their own culture, Jason chose to restrict them with language barriers and magic killing rules.
Talk about building civilization, you mean destroy it.
Let's not even mention Jason's views on emergence. "We were born on this earth and all its resources, and form all of that naturally came properties, governments and laws".
In complete contrast with magical fences and killing rules.

You have good points. Especially the point about griefers. Those players ARE rare and in the clear minority.

pein · 2019-05-12 05:44:49

lets just stop for a moment and analyze the word:
"twin" "eve"
two first womans who are daughters of the same non existent parent
i already mentioned that they shouldn't have two different names, it just doesn't make sense
so in case of twinning could be that you name yourself before the game or the first name gets taken or something

obviously it's not a big of a deal since no lineage ban
area ban bans them both

but we got so little information and we had so little encounters, when a family lives near you you should really know that "ahh, twin eves"
or if they actually found each other

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-05-11 17:54:35

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#27 2019-05-11 17:55:28

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#28 2019-05-11 17:57:06

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#29 2019-05-11 17:58:26

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#30 2019-05-11 18:09:19

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#31 2019-05-11 18:23:42

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#32 2019-05-11 19:01:13

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#33 2019-05-11 19:35:35

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#34 2019-05-11 19:45:33

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#35 2019-05-11 19:57:04

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#36 2019-05-11 20:11:22

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#37 2019-05-11 20:35:55

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#38 2019-05-11 20:40:12

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#39 2019-05-11 20:41:45

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

#40 2019-05-12 05:44:49

Re: Twin Eves don't speak the same language btw.

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