A proposed solution for repeated /DIE

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-05-14 18:28:58

Slow babies down a smidgen

lychee · 2019-05-14 18:31:58

Maybe just have an option in the settings that goes:

- I would like to spawn as Eve
- I would like to spawn in a small village (low gen)
- I would like to spawn in a medium town (mid gen)
- I would like to spawn in an advanced city (high gen)

Give it sliders for preferences and don't explain anything more.

Preferences are preferences, so it's easier to match people to what they want.

People might still /die if they don't like a start, but if you let people pick, maybe give them a menu setting (or a hidden preferences menu with a .ini file).

Dying to unlock the menu still has that initial /die associated with it....

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-14 18:50:31

I am still worried about presenting that kind of pref screen to new players. The game is supposed to be mysterious.

I could slow babies down by a lot, and eliminate DIE, but then FOLLOW ME would be a pain when you're carrying something.

I would love it if there was some way to make each life precious, really precious. That way, you wouldn't want to waste it, even if you found yourself in some less-desirable situation.

But the problem with that, in general, is that players can waste this precious resource accidentally too, or in situations beyond their control.

Imagine if you only got 3 lives per hour or something.

pein · 2019-05-14 18:53:12

i don't like it that way, but it's a bit better than now
definitely not choosing a mother maybe choosing a family

the most suggested was to choose a generation
1-5
6-10
11-20
20+

there are people who don't want to eve but stick with whatever
how about a survey?
when you /die, you need to give a reason
wrong gender
bad town
i want to eve
i want to get back somewhere

you need to give an option to be Eve, but you still need to limit the number of eves
is bad for everyone
lets say you got 80 people on server
then it would allow 8 eves only
so each family can go to around 10 person
if comes the 81, do you got some algorithm of prediction? like the genders seem to differ when the player count increases more girls
so it would be based on player number how many eves are allowed

lets say you can eve once a day
and you can go back to a town once a day or one of the two
you get two lifes in a town then banned for the day
or you can eve once and if you stay until 25 then no more, cause sometimes the map is bad and you get a bad start and you don't want to stay
maybe 1 hour as Eve daily, now if you die at 60 then you got 14 more minutes, you cant go around it more than 2 lifes
you can kill yourself as Eve and get new runs this way so newbees can still Eve

for example if there are males majority they could make a baby shrine and a girl would be born there
if the player accepts one of the shrines, it's born there
for example you need to put 10 types of food to the shrine in baskets and 2 people could activate, the number of fertile females in family should be less than 4, and the less ,the higher priority
then a mom needs to stand there and that is an offer what others can see after suicide
people are stressed that the family dies out so this would give a help to people who are decent players, can work hard but need female babies
people who help out this way, also would get an Eve token if they stay and have at least one girl who reaches age 3

there are people who try to go back regardless of they are banned or not, like they had a good life or just want to take revenge
so if you had a life in a family, show a timer to their main area, so they know that 15 min they cant go back

change back area ban to real time not play time
not like anyone will intentionally wont play 2 hours then exactly 2 hours later they play one more
and if they do, whats the issue? under 2 hours lot of things change

if a person has 1 hour that day, maybe doesn't want to spend his time spawning babies, maybe want to test out swords or build a room
so they don't want low gen
but lot of veterans enjoy low gen
honestly i like to start at lower generation and decide on setup and even if the town turns out bad, i gonna come back and fix it, but if i spawn somewhere i don't like, and i wanst there before, and it's late gen, i got no mood fixing it up

my last idea is teams, rather than having every family different, some families would be same team, same color, lets say Red text or red necklace, then they understand each other and can work together, they are same race/nation
and spawn closer to each other
so basically they will merge anyway
if Red team has 2 families next to a spring, blue gets one as well and green team also gets a 2nd Eve
this way if the population is spread between many Eves, and dies out, the survivors can find each other and regroup

there can be lot of reasons to suicide, maybe some people are mean to you when you born, or see dead people, fences or bad buildings
sure, if you suicide right away then you want to go back to somewhere or want to be Eve

If someone plays eve once i get it, twice maybe, but then if quits on everyone then becomes a problem
the chances to start as eve should be limited second time or need to "pay " for it with 1 hour play similar to curse tokens
people would understand maybe that they cant be Eves again but if they live a life normally then they guaranteed to become eves

not enough eves? you can always force people to become eves
so that part is not an issue
i think this is the most fair, that only 10% of people can be eves
some sort of application could work too
they cnat be eve right away but puts them on a list and notifies them and keeps up the window for 20-30 minute
so you go ingame and if you stay 30 min, then a notification comes, then you can die/starve and play your eve run
this also helps with predictions
if someone wants to be eve, and other families die, then it lets them play eve

the safest would be a die survey providing options to choose from or provide their own reason
refine next week if you receive a lot of the same or similar reasons what we don't know
(my mom seems new, i got a bad name, too many females etc)
then you can refine the rules based upon that

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-05-14 19:00:08

jasonrohrer wrote:

Imagine if you only got 3 lives per hour or something.

I'd be ok. I get pissed if I dont die of old age every life now. I never got the suicide thing in the first place, but I'm not going to completely knock it.

However it would significantly hurt new players if you did a 3 life per hour thing. I remember being new and dying to the same mom twice in a row in the course of 10 mins.

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-05-14 19:01:00)

spurofthemoment · 2019-05-14 19:09:08

jasonrohrer wrote:

Repeated /DIE is annoying for everyone involved.
How about this:
Immediately after you issue /DIE, the server sends you a list of potential mothers for your next life. You see this info for each one:
NAME
Age
Generation

The server would filter it so that there was only one mother from each family line on your list (to avoid repeated clutter). And at the bottom of your list, you could also specify NO MOTHER (aka, Eve).
Then, when you get reborn next time, the client sends your choice of mother along with the login, and the server sticks you with that mother if it's possible.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I am still worried about presenting that kind of pref screen to new players. The game is supposed to be mysterious.

I think having an available selection screen would be nice... based off @lychee 's suggestion, it could be something like:

Select a preference:
- I would like to spawn as Eve
- I would like to spawn in a small village (low gen)
- I would like to spawn in a medium town (mid gen)
- I would like to spawn in an advanced city (high gen)
- Surprise me

But that does leave the issue of taking away the mysterious aspect of birth...maybe the screen doesn't pop up until after the player's first five lives? Or maybe there's an option to turn the birth preference screen on in settings? Then you'd just have to find a way to make sure new players know that this option exists rather than /die-ing repeatedly.

I enjoy the mystery involved in the spawning process, so I think it's worth preserving...but it would be fun to be able to select a preference now and again, and it'd be nice if a lot of Eve babies didn't /die on the spot.

lychee · 2019-05-14 19:11:16

spurofthemoment wrote:

...maybe the screen doesn't pop up until after the player's first five lives?

Ah, I think that would work. Play a few times and then it unlocks, I guess.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-14 19:11:55

jasonrohrer wrote:

I am still worried about presenting that kind of pref screen to new players. The game is supposed to be mysterious.

Alright, how about the following then:

The Eve button/advanced village button (I don't know how hard those would be to track, so I'm not saying it's feasible)/etc. only becomes available after 10 hours of play. Or maybe 20 hours of gameplay. Or some other number that the person isn't a new player.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I would love it if there was some way to make each life precious, really precious. That way, you wouldn't want to waste it, even if you found yourself in some less-desirable situation.

That won't happen Jason. Even if swords got removed, and bows and arrows and knives couldn't kill players, other forms of griefing would exist. You can only do so much in that respect. Additionally, people aren't going to feel their OHOL lives as precious unless they think that OHOL life will be fun. Having to clean up a junky town just won't appeal to plenty of people (though some might like it.. enough won't). You could decrease the frequency of people getting born into towns that they don't like. That sort of goal seems more reasonable, and how ambitious of a goal that becomes depends on how much you would want to decrease such a frequency. An Eve button would decrease SID bones, which maybe like two people like to clean up, if even that many.

lychee · 2019-05-14 19:21:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

I would love it if there was some way to make each life precious, really precious. That way, you wouldn't want to waste it, even if you found yourself in some less-desirable situation.

I'll keep thinking about it... but overall I think you've done a lot of great things here, Jason. There's not a lot of things I can think of to help improve it.

But I'll keep thinking...

spurofthemoment · 2019-05-14 19:21:24

jasonrohrer wrote:

I would love it if there was some way to make each life precious, really precious. That way, you wouldn't want to waste it, even if you found yourself in some less-desirable situation.

I agree with @Spoonwood here...that's on the individual players and there's really no way to force people to care about their lives. Even though I lean really heavily into the rp aspect of the game, and I think I've only /die-d for technical issues, I still don't usually get attached to my person until about 5 minutes in, once I see what sort of town I'm in and what sort of person I need to be to progress the life/story. It takes a bit of time to get attached to the life, much longer than the 30 or so seconds it takes people to decide whether or not they're gonna /die.

Honestly, I can't think of any way to incentivize people to stick around rather than making sure gameplay is fun in any given situation, but "fun" depends heavily on the individual player. I like to try to rescue towns from the dead (I have been a determined carrot farmer more than once), but as @Spoonwood says, a lot of people don't. The only way I can think of to make it more probable that people spawn into their gameplay preferences is...well, a preference screen.

Dodge · 2019-05-14 19:25:34

Dodge wrote:

Dont really like the list thing, couldnt it be made by an algorithm without the player seeing it?
The algorithm would find out why someone used /die (too many people, not enough, too many generations, not enough, being a boy or a girl, not being an eve etc)
Each time you use /die it collects data and tries to find out why you used /die
It would build a profile for each account with their preferences and next time they /die the next spawn would be the calculated best match another /die would lead to the second best calculated etc.
Normal spawn without /die wouldnt be affected by the algorithm and would be like the current working spawn
Preferences would continually be calculated which would end up in less and less SID's
Also yeah there could be some time restrictions for people who use /die too much.

Would that not work? or be too complicated?

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-14 19:45:55

The number of lives you get per hour can start very high and then decrease the longer you play the game.

Even for veteran players, they could be abandoned 3x in a row sometimes, so that's a problem. Detecting "real abandonment" in a way that's not subject to exploits/griefing is hard if not impossible. Mother picks you up and feeds you to wolf. Does that "eat" one of your three lives for the hour?

Psykout · 2019-05-14 20:03:41

I would be wary of listing the name of the lineage as people have mentioned it could be used to target a lineage for positive or negative reasons, same for people being to force too many eves at one time. I think it would be better if it were either to select a generational preference and it randomly puts you in one, or you just see the lineage depth and select from there and one option for random with chance for eve. I wouldn't want to take away the randomness that exists, the mystery is always a good thing. Also to the ability to see how many active females in the lineage would be a double edged sword. If you go in depth to some lineages, often it is one single female that ends up keeping the lineage alive. There are plenty of players that would want to spawn into a lineage that has 0-1 fertile females to try and save them, as there are plenty that would never opt to be "Hope" in a family. Too much player choice there. I love that you are open to changing this though Jason, and the idea of generational preferences has come up before and it's nice to see you notice that and toy with the idea.

lychee · 2019-05-14 20:08:19

jasonrohrer wrote:

The number of lives you get per hour can start very high and then decrease the longer you play the game.
Even for veteran players, they could be abandoned 3x in a row sometimes, so that's a problem. Detecting "real abandonment" in a way that's not subject to exploits/griefing is hard if not impossible. Mother picks you up and feeds you to wolf. Does that "eat" one of your three lives for the hour?

I'm not sure limiting the number lives you get in an hour is the right call.

I need to think about it more to develop a really comprehensive opinion, but my gut reaction would be that I would hate to be locked out of the game for reasons like that, especially if I were a new player who genuinely died more than average because I sucked.

Maybe there should be a trial period where you have unlimited "lives", and when you've lived to old age a couple times, then a soft limit gets added.

I think 3 lives is on the harsher side. If it were 4-5 lives, I think that's a limit that most people wouldn't hit unless they were repeatedly using /die.

Dodge · 2019-05-14 20:10:35

jasonrohrer wrote:

The number of lives you get per hour can start very high and then decrease the longer you play the game.
Even for veteran players, they could be abandoned 3x in a row sometimes, so that's a problem. Detecting "real abandonment" in a way that's not subject to exploits/griefing is hard if not impossible. Mother picks you up and feeds you to wolf. Does that "eat" one of your three lives for the hour?

Wouldn't that be the total opposite of /die and the chosing list?

You have limited lives per hour and cant really chose where you want to be

As for how it could be done regarding abandonment, maybe the "death counter" would only start when you can start eating to not die and to avoid dying on purpose as a baby to go somewhere else "for free", if you died as baby you would be reborn in the same area.

And to avoid these cases where people would just lock themselves with a baby wait till they are 4 years old and starve them for the lulz, remove the mom's grip so babies can escape evil moms

Not too sure about completely removing choice BUT since villages should be much closer (if ban and other stuff get fixed) that shouldnt matter too much since someone that doesn't want to live somewhere could travel to find another village.

Thinking about it that could even make interesting stories of travelers seeking a better place and trying to get accepted and learn the language of their new village.

Léonard · 2019-05-14 20:13:15

Dodge wrote:

Running doesn't get you banned from the village, so you would have to run more and end up being more than 15 seconds...

Hence why I said personally.

Personally, I'd rather try and find a wild boar or wolf or bear to kill myself than having to put up with 15 seconds of enforced boredom.
And for what? Because I don't have a playstyle that you "appreciate"? Yeah, good job there, you really did it! You solved the /die problem!

spurofthemoment wrote:

Honestly, I can't think of any way to incentivize people to stick around rather than making sure gameplay is fun in any given situation, but "fun" depends heavily on the individual player.

Basically what I've been saying this whole time.
If anything, the fact that so many people get angry about this and seem to think that there's too much is proof that Jason's refusal to compromise on anything makes his playerbase unhappy as a whole.
Want less people giving up in your game? Make it more fun..

jasonrohrer wrote:

Detecting "real abandonment" in a way that's not subject to exploits/griefing is hard if not impossible.

I have already proposed a solution to this before.
In fact, it was in yet another one of those thread about people complaining of "too many /dies".
The link, in case you are interested (I don't believe for a second you will read it though).
I'll even quote the relevant part in a desperate attempt to reach you.

Léonard wrote:

On a more positive note, I had an idea about the running babies issue.
I think there is a reason as to why using /die resets the cooldown but not running babies.
I think Jason intended for babies dying of natural causes to always count towards the cooldown because ideally it should be considered the mother's fault for her baby's death, not the baby's.
If as a mother your baby dies in real life, you are by definition a bad mother, and that would be why they still count towards the cooldown, it would favorize good mothers over bad mothers who let their children starve.
I'm not saying this is fact, but if it is, then making a baby's death not count towards the cooldown is pretty much out of the question.
If /die was made the superior disconnect method over the shortcut, then the only things left would be people who don't want a lineage ban or people who want to grief the cooldown.
What if we went all the way with the "mother is bad if her baby dies" philosophy and made babies walk much, much slower. Like say a third of normal speed.
This would mean that the only choice people who want to abandon have is the /die command (which, assuming it's made the better choice, wouldn't be a problem at all).
Which in turn means that people staying as babies are guaranteed to be willing to play their current life.
Now I know a third of the normal speed sounds pretty bad, but hear me out on this.
First, you would still be able to carry your baby like normal, but on top of that, babies could also be made to be a carryable object like how big objects like firewood can be carried.
So you could fill your backpack with one baby or put up to four babies in a handcart or still carry one single baby in your own hands.
You might think this is bad for eve runs, but this simply means that you are limited to one baby while looking for a spot.
As eve, once you have your camp setup you can simply do what I assume eves were already doing and put your children in one specific spot while you're busy fetching various stuff and come back regularly to feed all of them at once.
Ideally, this could incentivize the use of nursery in developed towns, since busy women who need to fetch stuff could drop their children there (unless they have a backpack or a handcart for multiple children).
In the case where you have a single baby, you can still simply carry it around if you are busy (at the risk of having another one on the way) which I was already doing anyways because let's be fair, babies are slow enough that asking them to follow you is a huge struggle already.
In short, you would sacrifice the possibility of having multiple children far from town and without proper gear (backpack or handcart) for the fixing of runner babies AND finally getting the possibility of carrying babies around with something other than your own hands.
Thoughts?

Amon · 2019-05-14 20:48:48

\o/ Big massive shrug.

Slowing down babies would be great for once. Newborns aren't quite...um. That fast as the game presents them to be.
-But this would make traveling with babies suuuuuch a drag, or at least for one year olds. Especially if you are a mother with a car or horse or horsecart.

OHOL will always be like this, no simple solutions, one thing affects way too many things.

Maybe instead, reward players to die at 40+ instead of low punishing those that /die, but how?. I also like the idea of seeing viable mothers and picking them, should be limited however.

That way if you are abandoned you only loose out on a small benefit, and not get outright punished.

This is a meh idea however.

I'm alson not too keen on having a interface that picks lineage depth mother or eve buttons. It feels a bit hmm...eh.

Last edited by Amon (2019-05-14 20:49:42)

Left4twenty · 2019-05-14 21:12:46

Id like to present my idea for a solution to have players self regulate their /die use: add a Youth Death/Elder Death tally on the "get reborn" screen.

Last edited by Left4twenty (2019-05-14 21:13:05)

Twisted · 2019-05-14 22:19:15

What if you did the list thing but made it so you had to turn it on in the settings folder first? That way it's doubly hidden (knowledge about /die and knowledge about the settings file) and only available to folk who really want to control their spawns. In my experience people are really averse to changing any game files, even when it's something as simple as changing a 0 to a 1.

673751 · 2019-05-14 22:26:51

It be cool if we could see In the list along with age and gen, how many girl children the lineage has.

BladeWoods · 2019-05-15 01:10:50

jasonrohrer wrote:

The number of lives you get per hour can start very high and then decrease the longer you play the game.
Even for veteran players, they could be abandoned 3x in a row sometimes, so that's a problem. Detecting "real abandonment" in a way that's not subject to exploits/griefing is hard if not impossible. Mother picks you up and feeds you to wolf. Does that "eat" one of your three lives for the hour?

You could decrement a life only if you die past the age of 4. That way abandonment which you have no control over doesn't count, but I'm still not sure limited lives per hour is a good idea.
And you could distinguish new and veteran players by things like playtime or number of times lived to 60. Like only give a family list option to players that have gotten to 60 at least ten times.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-05-15 01:12:11)

Bob 101 · 2019-05-15 02:22:04

I approve for the most part, Also you should add pregnancy.

1. No more annoying bones

2. Less chance of runners

But I think this will reduce the amount of people suiciding because a place is too advanced or vise versa. However you do still have people suiciding for gender which is made easier with this change.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-05-15 02:33:06)

Peaches · 2019-05-15 02:53:40

To curb people from purposefully getting into the same towns, would it be possible to note previous recent lives and block those families from showing up in the list of mothers for a certain amount of time?

Spoonwood · 2019-05-15 05:23:32

BladeWoods wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
The number of lives you get per hour can start very high and then decrease the longer you play the game.
Even for veteran players, they could be abandoned 3x in a row sometimes, so that's a problem. Detecting "real abandonment" in a way that's not subject to exploits/griefing is hard if not impossible. Mother picks you up and feeds you to wolf. Does that "eat" one of your three lives for the hour?

You could decrement a life only if you die past the age of 4. That way abandonment which you have no control over doesn't count, but I'm still not sure limited lives per hour is a good idea.
And you could distinguish new and veteran players by things like playtime or number of times lived to 60. Like only give a family list option to players that have gotten to 60 at least ten times.

I like this idea best (so far, of course), since it measures in game skill to some extent.

JonySky · 2019-05-15 16:29:06

Thanks Jason for reviewing this problem
Lately I've complained a lot (from the base of players who use / die) and I'm glad to know that this problem is being reviewed

unfortunately these days I have very little time to comment on proposals to improve the current / die system
What if I can say that the system / die is not bad but it has to be improved so that mass suicides that we have now in the cities and towns of OHOL do not happen

the respawn screen that you indicate at the beginning of the post can be a significant improvement, we should try to see if with this system the number of suicides decreases

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