An observation

lychee · 2019-05-15 01:19:19

DaTrüf! wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Regarding property fences, are you experiencing a bunch of major problems with hoarding?
no

omg haha xD

Jk Howling · 2019-05-15 01:25:34

FeignedSanity wrote:

"The second you add some bullshit microtransactions to buy more lives is the second I stop playing this game permanently. Keep tossing stupid ideas like this out to the public and you're going to lose people very, very quickly my dude"
VS
"I feel that adding microtransactions to the game would cause me to stop playing for good. I also fear that you may lose people very quickly if you continue to publicly voice ideas like this."
They both say the same thing, but they say it differently.

I won't lie when I say I could've worded that better, but I did mean every word of it, and I do think it conveys my feelings on that idea quite honestly.

These crazy ideas are going to scare longtime players off, if they haven't already started doing so, solely from the very real possibility that he's going to add them to the game regardless of the negative feedback he receives. Just look at people's reactions to his initial threads regarding Warswords and Fences.

I feel like at this point, people are simply afraid of having their opinions ignored, even when he's asking for them from the community. I know I am. And while not everyone's opinion should or will be acknowledged, its still a scary thought to imagine something like microtransactions being added in with no regards to the feedback received.

Last edited by Jk Howling (2019-05-15 01:26:12)

BladeWoods · 2019-05-15 01:36:15

I think you are a really great developer Jason. I don't think most people understand how much work you manage to get done every week because they know little to nothing of development. I've said this before.

But I think a large part of the hate is from that, from how fast and big your changes come and are. People get attracted to the game, used to the game, and love the game as it currently is, then you come and make these HUGE changes. These huge changes are often for the better, proven by the fact that the current game is way better than it was a year ago, but the existing playerbase has a hard time with the massive changes. It's a natural consequence. I think the temperature update was undoubtedly a great update. But man there was so much hate because it completely changed the game. I think a lot of the players that hated it don't hate it anymore and wouldn't want it to go back.

We're still waiting to see about the coming together update. It's another HUGE change.

As for a trend over the years, I don't think there's been any change. People on the internet have always been toxic with anonymity, still are, and will continue to be.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-05-15 01:54:49)

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-15 01:47:30

@JK Howling

I get you. It wasn't my intention to reprimand you, it was just the most recent examples in my mind. There are quite a few others I could've used. I appreciate you being a gent and not blowing it way out of proportion. Glad I took you as one of the more level headed forum users.

I get that it was honesty. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Just wanted to point out how something is said has a big affect on what is said.

Bob 101 · 2019-05-15 01:52:19

I think while people like spoonwood always complain, Their is also alot of valid criticism.

The swords for example where way-op but you quickly made them more reasonable. Property fences was originally gonna be a magic hat that let's people build whatever they want, Changed once again.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-05-15 01:56:52)

Tarr · 2019-05-15 01:54:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

Regarding property fences, are you experiencing a bunch of major problems with hoarding?

At this point? No. They've fallen mostly to the wayside like railways. As we said in the thread originally about fences in an hours time you don't truly have a need to own property in the game. When I spent four or so hours in a specific town building up my own personal area I only fenced it off after people started sneaking into the area to loot supplies to the major town. It made sense to split from a town when I was independent of needing their supplies but that's not how fences work and I don't think that's how other people ever have used fences.

After the initial shine wore off they got pushed back to being mostly dead content due to the upkeep cost + not having anything other than sheep to keep inside them. I've seen a few fences since the newest update but they still fall into the selfish type where people basically just make a tiny farm to take care of that costs much more than it produces.

In the end while fences were fancy and new they were just a negative force in the game while they had their moment in the sun. Did they add anything positive? I'm not sure yet as I haven't seen what other players are truly capable of when using fences but I have my doubts.

While eventually the mass murder thing might calm down the sword isn't something that is balanced. I know you just nerfed its containment today but that's still not enough. There's a reason I've only been killed once while using the sword and it's not because I'm some pvp god. It's because I got stabbed by surprise by my son who was one of the many people I had killed. Every other weapon in this game has actual counterplay, (slowed movement, stuck holding the weapon, etc.) while the only counter to a sword in game is essentially just running as you can't gain ground on someone.

It's clear the Joriom approach doesn't make you wince but I potentially ruined the experiences of 40 odd players since the update and I don't enjoy that at all. I just want to see the sword made fair, war isn't something fought by one man against fifteen; all that ends up being is a complete and utter massacre.

futurebird · 2019-05-15 01:59:13

Tarr wrote:

It's clear the Joriom approach doesn't make you wince but I potentially ruined the experiences of 40 odd players since the update and I don't enjoy that at all. I just want to see the sword made fair, war isn't something fought by one man against fifteen; all that ends up being is a complete and utter massacre.

It sucks that it took all that to get the problem any attention at all. What would it be like to be a new player that weekend?

Buggy · 2019-05-15 02:00:03

People who regularly complain also really care about the game. If they didin't care they would just shrug and play something else. I have plenty of games I could be playing but instead I am checking the forums of this one. Also this community is pretty darn nice compared to a lot of the internet, especially without moderation here on the forums.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-15 02:05:05

Tarr wrote:

It's clear the Joriom approach doesn't make you wince but I potentially ruined the experiences of 40 odd players since the update and I don't enjoy that at all. I just want to see the sword made fair, war isn't something fought by one man against fifteen; all that ends up being is a complete and utter massacre.

Ah, good old Joriom. I miss Joriom.

Léonard · 2019-05-15 02:11:32

Jk Howling wrote:

I feel like at this point, people are simply afraid of having their opinions ignored, even when he's asking for them from the community. I know I am. And while not everyone's opinion should or will be acknowledged, its still a scary thought to imagine something like microtransactions being added in with no regards to the feedback received.

Quoted for truth.

Tons of people felt this way about fences.

It's become a pattern now.
All of the sudden, you make a bunch of threads saying "here's some ideas off the wall" and regardless of the opposition we get that implemented anyways.
Meanwhile you have threads like "Dreams deferred" rotting away and receiving zero acknowledgment from you.

My general perception from you has been that you're using your forum as some sort of echo chamber, I don't ever see you acknowledge people who oppose your ideas and give valid criticism for them.
The people who praise them on the other hand...
I'm pretty convinced my post won't be read by you regardless..

lychee · 2019-05-15 02:14:39

futurebird wrote:

Tarr wrote:
It's clear the Joriom approach doesn't make you wince but I potentially ruined the experiences of 40 odd players since the update and I don't enjoy that at all. I just want to see the sword made fair, war isn't something fought by one man against fifteen; all that ends up being is a complete and utter massacre.
It sucks that it took all that to get the problem any attention at all. What would it be like to be a new player that weekend?

Honesty, a pretty miserable/upsetting experience. You can see from the last words on the lineage trees.

But not just that, there's a lot of negative experiences being shared and circulated around the community this week, and a lot of people are /hurting/ or feeling betrayed. Those are real feelings that people are having, and it's part of the reason so many people are being so loud.

As for positive experiences... well, there's these kinds of threads and other people about how awesome it is to do this kind of stuff -- a lot of us feel a lot of emotional pain seeing this.

futurebird · 2019-05-15 02:17:58

To be fair Leonard. Jason is working on the /die issue which is one of the things from the Dreams deferred list. IDK if that's because he saw it or not. And this forum is VERY active. It'd be overwhelming to keep up with.

But, I do agree that it's not a good move to ask for feedback on an "off the wall" idea... get mostly negative reactions ... then do it anyway. It would be better to either listen to the feedback or not ask for feedback at all and just make the change if you are going to do it regardless of what the players want.

It's true that players can be VERY wrong about what's good for a game. But so can a dev.

jord1990 · 2019-05-15 02:39:25

Are you doing okay Jason? Because if the negativity is really getting to you then maybe just take a break for a week. Go outside and enjoy some things before coming back with a fresh mindset. Im pretty certain most people dont have the intention to make you feel bad.

seth · 2019-05-15 02:55:47

jasonrohrer wrote:

I've been doing this for 15 years.
The tenor of the discussion. The rush to judgement. The amount of complaining. The amount of personal attacks. The amount of entitlement from the playerbase. The review bombing, etc.
...
Obviously, if it bothered me too terribly, I'd have given up long ago. But I am interested in the general phenomenon, and where it's coming from, and why it has changed.

Thanks for this post.. I am seriously impressed at your ability to keep cool and approach this in a mindful, curious way, as opposed to lashing back. There's been more than enough opportunities to do that!

As an involved member of the Castle Doctrine community my memory immediately jumps to how positive and encouraging that community was.. that was the kind of thing that made it easy to want to get involved and build, and I created one of my first web apps for that game (Castle Fortify), and felt this amazing feeling of encouragement from that bunch.

I keep coming back to this forum because when the content is good, it's insightful and thought provoking. But there is way more entitlement and anger here to sift through. Despite my interest in game development, and my light attempts at game development, I'm realizing that reading through many of these comments triggers the thought: "Wow, I'm glad I'm not a game developer." I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that.. Who'd sign up for this know this was how it was gonna be?

And that's a shame, because all the people who are opinionated and enjoy games should try their hand at some game creation so we can play those ideas! But with this kind of negativity, I think we'd all rather be on the sidelines and let someone else take the hit.. It's a lot of missed opportunity..

As for why, well, the most obvious thing is this game is a whole lot more accessible than TCD, so there's a lot less of a filter - a much wider range of people can play it, including those who maybe have less an interest in the spaces indie games can explore. The relationship is perhaps more transactional there.. it's like I PAY YOU FOR GAME = YOU MAKE ME HAVE FUN TIME. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but boy did they pick the wrong developer! I find myself laughing when I see people hoping that they can peer pressure you into make this game choose fun over fulfilling on it's promise.

But it's the kind of laugh I don't really enjoy..

Lastly, I'll say I find that my capacity for judging other people correlates strongly with how much I judge myself, or how I fear I would be judged, if I were to fully express myself. I try to notice myself judging, like how I'm judging the judgers in this case..

I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's the failed promises of our society which are causing peoples feelings about games to be heightened.. Like the correlation with mass cynicism about the future of our lives and our world makes us all focus more on things we use to unwind or escape..

(update) Just checked out some more posts on the forum and tuned into to my experience of people personally insulting Jason for game design decisions, and realized I've seriously underplayed the way this makes me feel. I feel anger and disgust for the way some people choose to express themselves on this forum. I feel dirty. I like reading Rohrer's posts on the way he makes game decisions, but the emotional sewage I have to wade through to get to that.. is it worth it? ... I must like feeling this way if I keep doing it... right? Knowing that, it's time for me to get off the forum. I invite anyone reading this to check in with your body and see how it's affecting you as well. stay healthy.

Last edited by seth (2019-05-15 03:08:55)

Booklat1 · 2019-05-15 03:15:30

as usual, i agree very much with tarr

Language and fences feel extremely forced and unfun to me, not because the game is harder/changed/more complex/not my thing, but because it feels like you got stuck in a loop of "how to make people care?" that leads nowhere and are quickly making these as you go. At the same time we're begging you for simple additions and tweaks that are hard to get to you (milk was bugged for months, there's 10+ posts asking for tech storage in reddit, buildings are uneeded/not useful in cold biomes).

To me every time you add a fence or sword you're effectively making me play another week with incomplete supposedly vital features. It gets boring after a while, specially if im busy irl.

Additionally, we've all been reading a lot of game design articles/ interacting with devs, Maybe people are just slightly more game literate?

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-05-15 03:17:30)

Dantox · 2019-05-15 03:51:02

I think most of the rage that comes from the community comes from the lack of feedback regarding these extreme updates. it also doesnt help how every 2 weeks or so you are adding more mechanics or features instead from tweaking some that are really needed (storage, cooking, Quality of lifes updates) besides your total silence from your part regarding community suggestions. People are starting to feel ignored or that you dont listen at all meanwhile you add some feature that changes the game totally and i think the swords were the breaking point.

InSpace · 2019-05-15 04:36:05

jasonrohrer wrote:

The tenor of the discussion. The rush to judgement. The amount of complaining. The amount of personal attacks. The amount of entitlement from the playerbase. The review bombing, etc.

Oyeah, theres alot of that here, people are babies

MultiLife · 2019-05-15 04:44:13

Any examples of people attacking Jason? I haven't seen any real attacks myself. Maybe they're emails, or in Steam?

Psykout · 2019-05-15 05:13:39

MultiLife wrote:

Any examples of people attacking Jason? I haven't seen any real attacks myself. Maybe they're emails, or in Steam?

Full on attacks, don't see those often, but in tongue and cheek quip, its easy to /smh at Jason on here or discord. The gaming industry as a whole has been fracturing over the past few years. Big developers make games and features that when gamers actually play/use, they are so dumbfounded by the lack of insight from the developer, that there is backlash. Its like watching someone who has never owned a car, try and design one and tell you its a ferrari. That knee jerk reaction to be rather candid with our expressions towards developers I think comes from there, which is also why Indie developers are on the rise.

Also it takes a lot more effort to break something down into focus points and talk about it, than it does to just say "This update sucks, Jason has lost his mind, this game is dead"

I direct you to the proliferation in our younger generations use of .... TLDR ..... Taking less than thirty seconds to read through a few paragraphs is a chore to unfortunately to a lot of people, and I doubt their ability to have construction discussions is quite low.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-05-15 09:50:42

Tarr wrote:

Even the best players of this game are idiots and can't foresee that sometimes change is good.

Sums it up pretty well. I was bitching about the temp update, but then we got better clothes and a reason to use them.

I was very hostile at the wells drying out (still a bit salty) but then you brought us closer and gave them a reason in my eyes.

So I guess just expect pushback when you release something with a bigger picture in mind that might not make sense right away. You know what your trying to accomplish, but it takes us awhile to catch up sometimes.

But keep doin you regardless.

I still love this game and have faith in you.

ruanna · 2019-05-15 10:17:09

Some thoughts.

- the weekend the updates fall on for big content changes is normally total chaos. Normal functioning falls apart because everyone wants to spam the new content, it's a little overwhelming tbh. If you logged on for the first time as a new player and didn't understand you might not play again. Some sort of in-game window that shows the latest list of updates/changes would be very helpful. I think the communication of game updates to players needs to be in game window, and not through email.

- Cycle of updates as a weekly thing does you and the player base no favours - we are stuck with a constant loop of player testing and bugs in the main server. Small things like carrot stacking, or forever bananas. It probably is normal and a small thing, but you need to realise that the average video game player might never have to report a bug in game, ever.

- In a game that relies on so much unwritten lore and knowledge, having it change so often can be frustrating. I think it's very normal to feel some sort of upset feelings when something familiar and liked changes when you don't want it to. I suggest differentiating between "content add" and "major gameplay updates", or sth similar. Or changing your development cycle to a fortnightly/monthly instead of weekly thing, and possibly add a beta server.

Last edited by ruanna (2019-05-15 10:22:50)

pein · 2019-05-15 12:01:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

Regarding property fences, are you experiencing a bunch of major problems with hoarding?

i had a few times when they stolen horses, and it maddens me to no end when i go for a lasso for 400 or so distances, and youngsteers of 12 year old

there is no incentive to players to make their own things, and they can just team up with others to grief people who are solo

the internet is a cruel place and you cant take seriously everything they say
also you shouldn't hand over the decisions about others to them
the most weak, pathetic and dishonorable persons will jump first to "punish" people who they couldn't punish with their skills

im ok with experiments, but you need some sort of logic and system behind them
and revise some dead content
you see the game differently, you thought fences will solve issues and defend people, instead is just turned to something that ruins games
seems like lot of people quit cities with fences and the ones who stay make their own huge fences for al the wrong reasons
we need more support on buildings and some form of duel systems, and maybe personally owned items, if i do 99% of a recipe i should get control of it no? not like 1% makes their item. a least some priority over it. sure there are things you cannot own fully, but some form of reward system would be nice

it's annoying that people just rp and annoy me, and generally they even acting more butthurt than others who they wronged

Last edited by pein (2019-05-15 15:50:57)

Solbusaur · 2019-05-15 12:57:48

That's disheartening. I love what you're doing, and these updates make much more interesting stories to be a part of

zed · 2019-05-15 15:38:52

futurebird wrote:

Some of the worst attacks I encountered were on usenet back in the 90s.

There were trolls, but then there were killfiles. At least on the groups I
used to frequent, most posters were sensible and respectful. Possibly this is
due my memories tinting rosily with age...

Re the contrast with TCD: It's quite ironic, given that (roughly speaking) TCD
was a game about hurting people while OHOL is a game about helping people.

seth wrote:

I like reading Rohrer's posts on the way he makes game decisions,
but the emotional sewage I have to wade through to get to that.. is it worth
it?

I know what you mean. Here's how to sidestep the sewage:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/searc … &user_id=2

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-05-15 16:58:38

jasonrohrer wrote:

Regarding property fences, are you experiencing a bunch of major problems with hoarding?

In my experience, IF there are more than two property fence enclosures finished and closed off, then that town will die.

This is not because of hoarding perse, but that people stop being responsible for the town's problems if its outside their fence. Is there is no one making pies? They can't tell. If the fire goes out, they can't tell. If the well is dry, they have their personal bucket, and won't notice until it's too late to dig out of the situation. If there are several people acting this way, it becomes a problem.

It's more about hoarding their attention and responsibility than any particular commodity. Whenever I tell someone inside a fence, "You have the last shovel, can we dig....?" They are generally willing to help out. But sometimes they aren't there, and the resource is locked away.

But honestly, most people figured that out in the first few days, and it haven't seen a sealed up property in a while. Folks are much more likely to put the fences up as an informal boundary, and not bother with the gate.

I actually did use a property fence successfully in one life... I was gathering all the materials needed for taking pictures, and it was easier to create a fence and put a gate on it so that only people helping with the photography project would go in and out. It was a very large and bustling town, and found that a lot of people were scattering my materials in their own search for tile space.

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