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Potjeh

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 469

Re: Improvements in the new language system

FRIEND  -> FLORE
vs
FRIEND -> VGOBI

VG is not pronounceable.

Looks more pronouncable than written Polish

DestinyCall

Member

Registered: 2018-12-08

Posts: 4,563

Re: Improvements in the new language system

FRIEND  -> FLORE
vs
FRIEND -> VGOBI

VG is not pronounceable.

Looks more pronouncable than written Polish

Or Japanese ...

馬の前に荷車を付けるな。

Keyin

Member

Registered: 2019-05-09

Posts: 257

Re: Improvements in the new language system

Because a single-letter cipher makes horrible-looking language.  The existing language filter is very good at making the other languages actually pronounceable and language-like.

Example:

FRIEND  -> FLORE
vs
FRIEND -> VGOBI

This is true if you only do two cyphers, one for consonants and one for vowels. I propose 4 groups.

Hard consonants(B,C,D,F,G,J,K,P,Q,S,T,V,X,Z) also treat CH,PH,SH,TH, NG as individual letters

vowels(A,E,I,O,U, and dipthongs using two of these)

nasals(N,M,NG)

and liquids/semivowels/approximates (L,R,W,Y).

So for FRIEND, using the 3 groups instead of 2, you still get a lot of variations. Using the 4 groups does not allow 'VGOBI' because R can only be replaced with W,Y, or L. VLOBI, VWOBI, and VYOBI are all possible to pronounce.

But then, you don't want I and D linked since they are from different groups ( vowel and consonant) so lets replace I with say....F.

VLOBF is not pronouncable... this is because N, a nasal, was replaced with B. Instead replace N with either NG or M.

So FRIEND could become something like VLOMF, or VYONGF... both take me roughly the same time to pronounce as FRIEND

Granted, it is weird because we do not have words with these clusters(vlog is only VL I can think of, no VW, VY reserved to end of words)

The hardest to pronounce would be words starting with NG followed by another consonant, since this nasal sound is not used at the start of words in english.

so worst case scenario FRIEND becomes something like NGYIGK... which is why I also think nasals should have their own group.

If nasals M, N, and NG can only be replaced with each other, the worst combo I can think of would be FRIEND becomes XWINGQ, which would be understanbly hard to pronounce(Probably something like zwingkw or zwingk)

But yeah I do agree a single letter cypher with only two groups for vowels and consonants would be bad.

I am not sure what you would do with H because it serves a pretty unique role. H sounds comes after a voiceless consonant in english if it is the first letter in the word (For example we pronounce FRIEND as FHREND. Don't believe me? put your hand in front of your mouth, say an F,P,T,TH,CH,or K word and look for the puff of air)

So, if you treat H as a regular consonant it would really mess with the flow of words I feel. I would say only change H when it is part of CH, SH, TH, or PH.

I would think the best way would probably be to group H with LRWY.  FRIEND might becomes something strange like VHANGTH, but it is still much better than VGOBI in my opinion.

so for H prioritize the diagraphs CH,SH,TH,PH. If it is not preceded by any of those four switch it with L,R,W, or Y.

as for clusters with more than 2 letters, I think they can be ignored. Like your example in NIGHTSHIFT, -> N I G H T SH I F T. The only cluster we would really care about is SH.

TL:DR I absolutely agree a single letter cypher will be bad if you only use 2 groups(consonants and vowels). I recommend  using the 4 groups

Nasals(M,N,NG)

Approximates(H,L,R,W,Y)

Consonants(B,C,CH,D,F,G,J,K,P,PH,Q,S,T,TH,V,X,Z)

Vowels(A,E,I,O,U and some vowel dipthongs like AI, IE, OO, EE)

Each sound could only be replaced by a member of it's group. FRIEND would always be structured as:
consonant, approximate, vowel, nasal, consonant

With this system you will only get unpronounceable clusters like VG in places like  kePT becoming for example ZIVG...

vg is only 'unpronounacable' (personally as a linguistics major I do not have trouble pronouncing it...make FK glide sound without vowel and vibrate throat) to us because english does not have the cluster

Personally I do not think this is a big deal as english has had plenty of tough consonant clusters that foreigners learning english insert vowels in between. For example.. knife being pronounced as written. We would now consider 'kn' unpronounceable.

Many languages have consonant clusters that are difficult for english speakers to pronounce. For example GVALT “row” in Russian. English learners will be tempted to insert 'uh' or 'ih' short vowels, and pronounce it like GIHVALT or GUHVALT. But the correct way to pronounce it is simple to make the G sound like you're going to say a word starting with G, then immediately change your mind and say VALT. hint:if you say GVALT with two syllables, you're saying it wrong.

other fun examples from Russian:

pfénink
shvyétskiy
tsvyetók
mgnovyénniy

Last edited by Keyin (2019-05-16 03:43:56)

Potjeh

Member

Registered: 2018-03-08

Posts: 469

Re: Improvements in the new language system

How about making translation a multi-generation project? We have paper and pencils, why not let us compile dictionaries? Bind a couple papers with a thread, and type /<word> <translation> while holding one to make a translation for a word? And if you hold a dictionary and type a word that's present in it, it automatically gets converted to the foreign word. Copying whole dictionaries should be a thing, of course.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-05-16 04:17:56)

DestinyCall

Member

Registered: 2018-12-08

Posts: 4,563

Re: Improvements in the new language system

The only thing that would work is to have ONE filter for all foreigners.  So there's only one language to learn, game-wide, and you use that language to talk to all foreigners.  But that's not very interesting.

You could also have pairwise filters for all skin tones, which would mean that if you're born as a Ginger, you have three languages to learn, but those same languages wouldn't work if you're born with brown skin, even if you're talking to the same people you were talking to before as a Ginger....

I don't love the idea of a single language for all outsiders ... but I don't hate it either.   In many ways, I think this would be the BEST solution to a difficult problem.  It sounds like it would be simple to implement using the existing code and it would be pretty intuitive for players to understand without outside explanation of what is going on behind the scenes, language-wise.   It would also work across multiple lives so if you spent a few lives around outsiders, you could start picking up fluency naturally and use it the next time you encounter a stranger.    I don't like the idea of investing a ton of time in learning a new language only for that accumulated knowledge to be completely useless as soon as that particular family dies out.   And I think it is really confusing and counter-intuitive to have different families each have different ciphers, so you can't have a three-way conversation in a multi-cultural town.   

Considering that most lineages only last a few days at most and you will probably meet new lineages more often than old ones, you probably won't have that many opportunities to use another lineage's language before it is gone.   I'm fascinated by this update, but I think that even I would burn out on learning brand new languages pretty quickly if I have to start over from scratch every life or two.    If all outsiders use the same language, you would need to make a significant initial investment to learn the language, but after that, you would be able to engage in simple conversations and potentially trade with your neighbors or ask for help, should the need arise.  The more time you spent learning the outsider language, the better you would get at conversing with non-family and new opportunities would open up for you and other players who learn how to speak with outsiders.  It's not a perfect representation of how foreign language works in the real world, but I think it actually works pretty well at getting the core concept across.   It also allows you to overcome the language barrier through your own in-game efforts, rather than by a mechanic that simply removes the filter if you wait long enough or marry the right person.   

I'd love to see bell towns with libraries and schools to help teach new immigrants how to speak the language.   That would be really cool!