Should the sword kill everyone from other families or only foreigners?

DestinyCall · 2019-05-17 16:31:25

Yesterday, I was born into a multicultural village. We had at least four families living together, three different skin tones. Our babies were raised communally with multiple people contributing to their language acquisition so the next generation would be able to communicate better across multiple language divides. Everyone lived and worked together peacefully. The village had no swords and no property fences. Unfortunately, we also had very little food or clothing, because we were in experiencing a huge population boom related to having so many families in one spot. I spent most of my life baking pies, gathering rabbits, tending stew crops and gathering water. I gave birth to many children and did my best to fix the villages many shortages. Then a black woman arrived from outside the town with a sword and proceeded to set off a massacre that wiped out three families. Our village was small and low-tech. We were living peaceful and struggling against the challenges of running a multi-family village until this random griefer decided to single-handedly destroy what we had built.

It was not a fun or interesting story. It was not a rich dynamic. It was genocide.

Twisted · 2019-05-17 16:32:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

Question: how does the outsider baby get a sword?
Aren't you already being careful about which random baby gets a knife? I'd say, maybe, that you never trust an outsider baby with a sword, unless they learn the language enough to talk to you and convince you of their trustworthiness... and why they need a sword in the first place.

This is a really weird thing to say, honestly. Currently the only way to stop people from doing what they want is to kill them. The only way to be 'careful' about outsider babies getting swords is to slaughter them as soon as they spawn in. Swords are very easy to make and can be made from scratch within seconds if the town has a Newcomen set up, so I don't understand what you mean by 'trust an outsider baby with a sword'.

Potjeh · 2019-05-17 16:45:11

LOL @ rich dynamic. The only rational action is the exterminate all foreigners because swords are OP. The playerbase just needs to catch up with the meta. And there's no such thing as building trust between families, because families are composed of individuals with wildly different attitudes and behaviors. They may be related in strictly game mechanics sense, but they don't have anything in common culturally like real families do.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-05-17 16:46:18)

Ari-ori-412 · 2019-05-17 16:52:41

Tarr wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Question: how does the outsider baby get a sword?
Aren't you already being careful about which random baby gets a knife? I'd say, maybe, that you never trust an outsider baby with a sword, unless they learn the language enough to talk to you and convince you of their trustworthiness... and why they need a sword in the first place.
As someone who has cleared enough villages I can tell you I get the sword by disarming the idiot who chases me around with a snowball, or find one that's been hidden away.
jasonrohrer wrote:
The thing is, you have free walls that can be used to keep out outsiders. You don't really need to worry about someone coming in and killing your whole village, unless you just sit back and let that happen. The fences are free.
That video of the crusader, while hilarious, represents the sword how it was a long time ago. I think I changed the way that it worked after about 24 hours of that. So there is a cooldown now, and it's viable to fight back with the other weapons. Safety in numbers. I've seen it happen.
Is there safety in numbers?
http://i.imgur.com/nruTKBE.png
http://i.imgur.com/gPi7NME.png
The ten seconds of full running speed while being unable to stab does NOTHING to stop what makes the sword overpowered. You can hit and run an entire village, you can juggle breast feeding while doing it, or any other ridiculous thing. These are both from after you nerfed the sword to ten seconds of no stabby. Saying that the video doesn't represent the current sword is shenanigans because the only difference is that Michael Punch would just be running a few more seconds before kills.
And it's NOT viable to fight back with a weapon what are you even talking about? You don't ever gain ground on someone with a sword who can tap anyone he runs by and keep running until eventually there's no one left.
That video absolutely represents what a nightmare dealing with someone competent with a sword is like. I couldn't even defend my kids against attacks because they stood still.

fav part has to be the ppl who tried to curse XD

CatX · 2019-05-17 16:59:12

Twisted wrote:

Currently the only way to stop people from doing what they want is to kill them.

This does bother me a little. If someone is annoying on purpose, like babies whistling without stop, the only way to stop them is to kill them. It's too harsh a punishment for too small a crime.

And yes, we're not actually killing people, we're just helping them relocate to a different place... but if we unlike griefers are immersed in the world, then killing becomes a psychological barrier to climb.

(It is one of the reasons griefers have an advantage. The other being that you have to kill a lot to get good enough to be able to deal with some griefers. But if the game is not about killing for you, you'll never reach that level.)

Jk Howling · 2019-05-17 17:29:17

lol yes having a single person walk in and wipe out an entire family is such a rich dynamic. Having several families that get along perfectly fine until the single bad egg is born and starts stabbing is a totally rich dynamic.

Just out of mild curiosity, have a strawpoll fam. Vote as you will.
https://www.strawpoll.me/18007331

Tarr · 2019-05-17 17:32:18

Was done when Jason was fooling with the family tree stuff so it doesn't link to me. Currently waiting to see if my playback video will work so I can record it and what not to show the sword is a broken weapon like I keep saying.

Light family lives where the Angel family lived yesterday, big fenced town that had three gates around it. Forced my way in after baiting someone outside by threatening to block their gates with fences. Person accidentally left the gate open for a second too long and got inside the place and the only survivor was someone who ran off into the wilderness.

I don't know how much proof I need to show how easy it is to clear out a whole town with zero effort or how I can explain to Jason this is a terrible idea. I've shown what five different families I've cleared out by myself? Sword needs actual balance and not just slightly tweaked.

futurebird · 2019-05-17 17:34:53

I don’t think if swords stay in or not is a question for a community vote or for me to decide (but if you asked me I’d say get rid of them) Part of creative work is knowing when not to give an audience what they want. I have respect for those kinds of choices. The “red wedding” on GOT was really hated by many fans but it was the kind of good artistic choice that makes a story memorable and important. That said, going for shock value— just because it’s shocking with no real deeper meaning or genre to subvert is juvenile and boring. A lot of Jason’s choices skirt line on this distinction for me. The combination of the race based segregation, swords and language feels like someone it’s trying to stop me from being kind, like I’m being boxed in to a xenophobic stance by game mechanics. I don’t like it because feel as if I’m being told “oh no what will you sweet little doves do NOW?” —um not enjoy the game as much and die a lot?

I’ve mentioned before that recent changes have lead me to be more detached from the game with all the random murder it is healthiest not to be emotionally invested and let yourself really *feel* the impacts of all the deaths instead I laugh like I did as a teen at dead baby jokes. Nothing wrong with that kind fun but I thought maybe this game was going for something deeper. Now, I don’t know.

Jk Howling · 2019-05-17 17:37:25

futurebird wrote:

I don’t think if swords stay in or not is a question for a community vote or for me to decide (but if you asked me I’d say get rid of them)

I doubt this will have any impact on what he does with them, I'm just curious and want to see the people's opinions in a more concise and controlled environment than browsing scattered posts around the forum.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-17 17:57:32

futurebird wrote:

I’ve mentioned before that recent changes have lead me to be more detached from the game with all the random murder it is healthiest not to be emotionally invested and let yourself really *feel* the impacts of all the deaths instead I laugh like I did as a teen at dead baby jokes. Nothing wrong with that kind fun but I thought maybe this game was going for something deeper. Now, I don’t know.

This is where I am at with this update. I am feeling less emotionally invested and less enjoyment because it is harder to form the kind of deep personal connections with people that are most meaningful for me. I don't want to play a game of killing the other families before they kill my family. There are plenty of games that do that better than OHOL. And increasing violence and war just leads me to detaching from my in-game family and choosing to avoid letting myself form bonds. Why bother if we are just going to kill or get killed in a random burst of violence?

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-17 18:19:36

Tarr wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/HqMtHvv.png
Was done when Jason was fooling with the family tree stuff so it doesn't link to me. Currently waiting to see if my playback video will work so I can record it and what not to show the sword is a broken weapon like I keep saying.
Light family lives where the Angel family lived yesterday, big fenced town that had three gates around it. Forced my way in after baiting someone outside by threatening to block their gates with fences. Person accidentally left the gate open for a second too long and got inside the place and the only survivor was someone who ran off into the wilderness.
I don't know how much proof I need to show how easy it is to clear out a whole town with zero effort or how I can explain to Jason this is a terrible idea. I've shown what five different families I've cleared out by myself? Sword needs actual balance and not just slightly tweaked.

You know, this has kind of got me curious to try this. I used to be quite proficient at "combat" way back when I used to play this game. I think I was like 20-30 and 2, or something silly like that (not counting randomly getting walked up on and shot out of nowhere, etc.). Used to have to fight off whole villages because stabbing one yahoo would send everyone into a murder frenzy. Hopefully I have time this weekend. I mean, it'd just be playing the game "as intended"

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-05-17 18:22:40)

Buggy · 2019-05-17 18:54:05

Jk Howling wrote:

lol yes having a single person walk in and wipe out an entire family is such a rich dynamic. Having several families that get along perfectly fine until the single bad egg is born and starts stabbing is a totally rich dynamic.
Just out of mild curiosity, have a strawpoll fam. Vote as you will.
https://www.strawpoll.me/18007331

I am interested in this as well I re posted to the discord hopefully we can get some more votes

Dodge · 2019-05-17 19:28:14

Ok, from reading the various comments two things seem to stand out.

1.Killing is way too imbalanced compared to healing.

2.When someone attacks nobody seem to care/take action to do something.

For:

1. Maybe it's time for a new medical update with official medics that can carry some type of pads and all the material necessary to quickly heal.

2. If you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYdtRkFFIw you can notice that while some people are running away most people just continue doing their thing despite hearing the murder screams, and even the ones running away just run in circles without any direction or plan in mind.

Maybe hearing a murder scream could make you and others who hear it scream too, it always seemed weird that people seeing a murder happening just stay with a straight face and it could make murders more real so people would be more inclined too take action instead of ignoring it.

As for strategies of what to do when attacked, these will develop over time after being attacked over again.

Anyone have any idea how to make murders more real so they are not ignored like nothing is happening?

Maybe there could be some red (or any color) flash kind off thing that appears briefly on screen when you hear a scream and would be showing on screen in the direction the scream is coming from, since when someone is screaming there is no way to know where the scream is coming from except guessing.

This could make so you know where murder is coming from and chose to either run away or grab a weapon or medical supplies to run to the place.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-05-17 19:32:16)

Psykout · 2019-05-17 19:48:27

Dodge wrote:

Oh, you will want swords and even firearms when the neighbor village steals all you iron/steel,oil,pies and threathens to kill women and children if you do anything.

This falls apart immediately. If there are no swords or guns to oppose people with, there is no threat to defend against. Someone comes in with a knife and takes out someone, remove them during the slowdown, if they dont starve first. There are systems around killing people to help us deal with it, until swords happened. The fact there was loopholes around the cooldown of swords, the fact that upon implementation you carry one in your trousers, is pretty damn good proof it was not thought through. You dont add something that can ONLY be a weapon without dotting your "I"s and crossing your "T"s first. Also the fact they are made by using a smithing hammer on a rod, something that takes newcomen tech, water and charcoal, just sitting on the ground is insane.

Anyone at age three can come up a ruin massive amounts of effort with a few clicks. Before you even say just property fence it off, no one likes being forced to take the low road. This is a trans generational community game, the idea of property losing its value to a specific person, was well one of the bigger values of the game.

Is this a social experiment or a game? I get enough of a shaded view of society walking out my door, why does it also have to be on my monitor in my home?

DestinyCall · 2019-05-17 20:28:23

Dodge wrote:

Oh, you will want swords and even firearms when the neighbor village steals all you iron/steel,oil,pies and threathens to kill women and children if you do anything.

There is another big problem with this arguement. I have yet to see someone launch a raid to aquire a neighboring villages resources. I have repeatedly witnessed genocidal raids that were planned and carried out for the solo purpose of wiping out a neighboring village. Or chaotic murder fests where multiple people killed back and forth until both sides died out from lack of females.

It is not like Village A needs food, so they send some people over to threaten their neighbors with war swords to get free pies. For one thing, you could just walk over and eat free pies at most OHOL villages, with or without swords. Threatening is not necessary. And with the language update, you can't really threaten people verbally, although if a bunch of outsiders arrived with sheathed swords and started hanging out in the bakery talking gibberish, it might feel pretty threatening.

But more to the point, this is just not how people are using the war swords. Combat in OHOL favors speed and surprise attacks. Rushing in and killing quickly before anyone has a chance to react. Taking advantage of the narrow field of view and visual barriers like trees to kill without being seen and evade counter attacks by kiting. If you go into a village with the intention to cause mayhem, you don't start with threats and work your way up to murder. You just start killing and don't stop until everyone is dead.

There is no proper defense against a sword slaughter. At best, you can hope that your side has better killers than the other side. But none of that will save you if the girls are all dead.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-17 20:51:24

Twisted wrote:

This is a really weird thing to say, honestly. Currently the only way to stop people from doing what they want is to kill them. The only way to be 'careful' about outsider babies getting swords is to slaughter them as soon as they spawn in. Swords are very easy to make and can be made from scratch within seconds if the town has a Newcomen set up, so I don't understand what you mean by 'trust an outsider baby with a sword'.

So there's no way to stop them, then, other than by killing them?

Before this COME TOGETHER update, how did you stop untrusted babies from making their own knives, other than by killing them?

I've given you a new problem to solve, and you have the tools available to solve it peacefully.

Even the possibility of Tarr's slaughter antics aren't inherent to the game as it stands right now, but simply a sign that people (the victims) haven't figured out the new meta yet. There are peaceful ways to stop him from slaughtering your village.

And if we're talking about non-peaceful defenses, Tarr, do you really think that one guy with a sword could take out several people with bows?

Léonard · 2019-05-17 20:58:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

Even the possibility of Tarr's slaughter antics aren't inherent to the game as it stands right now, but simply a sign that people (the victims) haven't figured out the new meta yet. There are peaceful ways to stop him from slaughtering your village.

Yes, we get it, you want us to use your god damn fences at all costs!!!!

Seriously Jason, the fact that you have to literally tell us this should be a STRONG hint that your mechanic is anything but rich...

Last edited by Léonard (2019-05-17 20:59:01)

Tarr · 2019-05-17 21:02:52

Video proof of how bad you can be and clear out 80% of a town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOOas0JH6g

@Jason

What are the peaceful options to stopping an attacker? Last time people tried fences/gates and I just forced my way in my threatening to block their gates. A village cannot be self sustainable for a long enough time to just let an Eve fence off all their gates.

To the bow question, sure it's harder to fight someone with a bow but the attacker just needs to walk on top of items to make sure missed arrows get deleted. Do you really think the answer is for people to adapt to such an overpowered weapon? Do I need a video of me cracking open a fenced village to drive this home?

DestinyCall · 2019-05-17 21:06:37

Léonard wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Even the possibility of Tarr's slaughter antics aren't inherent to the game as it stands right now, but simply a sign that people (the victims) haven't figured out the new meta yet. There are peaceful ways to stop him from slaughtering your village.
Yes, we get it, you want us to use your god damn fences at all costs!!!!
Seriously Jason, the fact that you have to literally tell us this should be a STRONG hint that your mechanic is anything but rich...

Intuitive design at its finest.

Whatever · 2019-05-17 21:15:01

Tarr wrote:

Video proof of how bad you can be and clear out 80% of a town.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOOas0JH6g

beautiful 10/10

Jk Howling · 2019-05-17 21:25:05

Tarr wrote:

Video proof of how bad you can be and clear out 80% of a town.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOOas0JH6g
@Jason
What are the peaceful options to stopping an attacker? Last time people tried fences/gates and I just forced my way in my threatening to block their gates. A village cannot be self sustainable for a long enough time to just let an Eve fence off all their gates.
To the bow question, sure it's harder to fight someone with a bow but the attacker just needs to walk on top of items to make sure missed arrows get deleted. Do you really think the answer is for people to adapt to such an overpowered weapon? Do I need a video of me cracking open a fenced village to drive this home?

bUt iT's A RiCH dYnAmIC

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-17 21:28:50

Léonard wrote:

Yes, we get it, you want us to use your god damn fences at all costs!!!!
Seriously Jason, the fact that you have to literally tell us this should be a STRONG hint that your mechanic is anything but rich...

So you're claiming that towns with no boundaries create more rich dynamics?

That a vague, undefined perimeter is more interesting than a town wall with a well-defined gate?

Fair warning: this game is nowhere near as good or rich or interesting as it could be. You've only seen a tiny glimmer of possibility so far. It's a complicated game to get right, but I plan to keep working on it until I get it as close to right as I can.

And that means that, two years from now, it will almost be a totally different game from the game you are playing right now.

The only constant will be change.

Now, I know that, for some reason, you all think these changes will make the game more violent and horrible. Not sure why. The game has always had violence in it. That hasn't changed too much. Go back on the time machine server and give the old knife a try.

The plan is to find all the right knobs to tweak to get everything in the game turned way up. To give you so many things to think about, and so many different aspects to balance as you play, that the possibility space is staggering. So that every life you live in the game is literally different than any other life you lived. So that every life you live in the game almost feels like a different game.

I get that you don't trust me to do this, or that you think I'm an idiot, or whatever. But I don't care. I'm going to do it anyway, or at least try to. That's my job. To make the most amazing game ever.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-17 21:37:36

Dodge wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
The dynamics of war swords are poor. It's JUST a killing tool. The dynamic of a knife is much richer since it can carve up a turkey, slice bread, slash a rubber tree, cut tule reeds, etc.
Do you really think dynamics means the number of objects you can craft with? SMH

No, because there exists farming, cooking, and eating in the game as well as other resource gathering.

Dodge wrote:

Now try to think a little more than usual before just saying "NO you're wrong", why do you think he released the sword at the same time he's making village closer also why do you think he made property gates?

Because Jason wants to find a way that property fences and property gates become useful. He isn't willing to rethink property's viability in the game. So, he has tried to force a system where people would like them. It's kind of like how he wouldn't rethink the game with respect to clothing, so he introduced temperature shock and got rid of temperature blending along biome edges and nerfed jungles. He didn't care apparently that it would result in people doing something boring like standing on a fire to have children in that case (yes... I DO think the temperature overhaul was flawed and a mistake). Jason just insisted on clothing (and wanted buildings and wood flooring also) to become more useful. So, instead of thinking about people's play experience and just accept some of his content as flawed, he puts out a new system to try to force people to play the way he arrogantly believes the game should be played (remember him suggesting that the people who settled aong desert edges where basically inferior Eves?). The same has happened here, but it's magnified. Since property fences and city walls have gotten rejected wholesale, he's tried to force a system where they become more desireable. This just involves Jason's stubborn and arrogant attitude to respect the playerbase's choices and try to force the game to get played how he believes it should get played. It has nothing to do with making the game more fun or getting people to play for their lineages. And please note that Jason has tried to tell people what THEY find interesting. Usually when someone does that it's the sign of someone who isn't naive, but instead is manipulative.

Dodge wrote:

Because if villages are closer ressources will be more scarce and there will be more interaction between those villages, protecting ressources or whole villages behind walls/fences and gates, cooperating with nearby village or stealing their ressources because they didn't care to put them behind gates etc.

It seems clear to me that cooperation isn't happening on any sort of substantial scale. If it were, with people closer together, they would build roads between towns OR clamor for easier way to build roads between towns. And belltowers would serve a useful purpose. But why would you do that when it would just invite an invasion to happen sooner?

You can say that I'm wrong, but I've played a lot on server12 where people cooperate with nearby villages.

Dodge wrote:

These are all new dynamics we didn't have before and swords are a part of it.
Your town has no more iron close or far and is dying, village close has iron but doesn't want to trade and the iron is behind gates, what do you do?
Let your village die?
Invade them with knives? LOL

Temperature and yum are shot when doing that sort of thing. Plenty of players feel inclined to suicide with murder graves around. Lineages are fragile without good fertility. Moms will die in such invasions. Such invasions are not good for lineages, and it would be better to use stone hoes and import soil from fertile or dug soil pits with a horsecart and cook foods like eggs and turkies which don't require soil.

Jk Howling · 2019-05-17 21:38:13

jasonrohrer wrote:

Léonard wrote:
Yes, we get it, you want us to use your god damn fences at all costs!!!!
Seriously Jason, the fact that you have to literally tell us this should be a STRONG hint that your mechanic is anything but rich...

So you're claiming that towns with no boundaries create more rich dynamics?
That a vague, undefined perimeter is more interesting than a town wall with a well-defined gate?

Fair warning: this game is nowhere near as good or rich or interesting as it could be. You've only seen a tiny glimmer of possibility so far. It's a complicated game to get right, but I plan to keep working on it until I get it as close to right as I can.
And that means that, two years from now, it will almost be a totally different game from the game you are playing right now.
The only constant will be change.

Now, I know that, for some reason, you all think these changes will make the game more violent and horrible. Not sure why. The game has always had violence in it. That hasn't changed too much. Go back on the time machine server and give the old knife a try.
The plan is to find all the right knobs to tweak to get everything in the game turned way up. To give you so many things to think about, and so many different aspects to balance as you play, that the possibility space is staggering. So that every life you live in the game is literally different than any other life you lived. So that every life you live in the game almost feels like a different game.
I get that you don't trust me to do this, or that you think I'm an idiot, or whatever. But I don't care. I'm going to do it anyway, or at least try to. That's my job. To make the most amazing game ever.

Adding a broken as shit weapon into the game isn't making the most amazing game ever. It's driving people off. It's causing mass genocide of other families, not to raid them for supplies- but because its so easy and so inevitable for one side to turn, that we might as well!

These aren't rich dynamics. These aren't fun changes or additions. These are overpowered mechanics that are going to drag the game down a road that nobody in its current playerbase is looking forward to without some serious fixes.

Listen to your god damn community, Jason. The majority is in agreement. The swords are broken. They're too strong, too easy to massacre with, and are not adding these "rich dynamics" you keep preaching. They're making your "parenting and civilization building" game into a race war, and little more. Adjusting to the meta of "literally kill everyone or risk being killed" is not going to help things.

Whatever · 2019-05-17 21:42:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

Now, I know that, for some reason, you all think these changes will make the game more violent and horrible. Not sure why.

Stop trolling jason lol

Ofcourse the recent changes make the game more violent, these are the changes you made:
- you cannot curse other families
- your family will be one race, makes it easier to spot outsider
- other families talk gibberish, creates conflicts, and conflicts cannot be resolved with words
- everyone is now much closer together
- op war swords, that have no slow down.

all of the above changes were implemented by you in order to create more violence and conflicts, more killers.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The game has always had violence in it. That hasn't changed too much. Go back on the time machine server and give the old knife a try.

The old knife was not good for the game at all. It was good that you changed it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

To make the most amazing game ever.

This is a very nice goal.

jasonrohrer wrote:

...or that you think I'm an idiot, or whatever

no, i know you are not whatever, i am whatever

Last edited by Whatever (2019-05-17 21:44:32)

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